Talk:Armenian-occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh

Requested move

I think the present title is not neutral. The international community refers to these territories as occupied. But for the sake of neutrality something like Political status of 7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan could be acceptable. Grandmaster (talk) 12:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Copied from WP:RM:

The title is not neutral. The 7 districts of Azerbaijan, which are under control of armed Armenian forces, are generally referred to as occupied territories of Azerbaijan. 4 UN Security Council Resolutions [1] and resolutions of PACE [2] and other international organizations, as well as mass media use the term Occupied territories. But some may see the word "occupied" as non-neutral, and therefore something like Political status of 7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan or Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, which are under Armenian control might be more acceptable. I see that this is what other similar articles are called, see for example Political status of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Any suggestions of other acceptable titles are welcome. —Grandmaster (talk) 12:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

* I second. In most sources it referred as occupied territories.--Dacy69 (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

* Yes, I agree with Grandmaster, he has a point, these territories are known as occupied territories both in media as in official records, the title is POV and should be changed to Political status of 7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan Baku87 (talk) 11:50, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Support. POV title generated by the separatist administration is not acceptable and should be changed. Parishan (talk) 08:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Support. Ridiculous WP:POV, and think of hundreds of thousands who have been thrown out of their homes in this "security belt". Also, may want to look at the map, did NKR need security belt against Iran too to occupy districts between NK and Iran?? :)) Atabəy (talk) 08:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Support. The title is POV, according to several UN resolutions the entire region is labeled as occupied regions even in the media its portrayed as occupied regions, so how on earth the article got to be named "security belt" is beyond me. Baku87 (talk) 12:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Baku you should support it one more time, third time is the charm. VartanM (talk) 12:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless you have actually anything usefull to say stop being so childish. Baku87 (talk) 12:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Support. Wikipedia needs a neutral term. Security Belt reflects only Armenian POV. Chippolino (talk) 20:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

What a surprise? you all want to rename a perfectly neutral name to a POV and all support each other. VartanM (talk) 10:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Support It can be called "security belt" for some circles in Armenia. But for the world, which Wiki is targgeting, it has to be called "7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan", as the world sees it this way, except the few/minority. So better luck with the Wiki in Armenian. --Aynabend (talk) 10:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oppose An article's title exists so that it can be easily found by readers, if more clarification about its actual content is needed then that can be given in the article's introduction section. Ambiguous and overly-long titles, like those proposed as alternatives, are not suitable for a Wikipedia article title. Even the current title is too long - something like "Nagorno-Karabakh security belt" would be better. Meowy 17:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Our naming policies are crystal-clear - our first priority in article naming is not neutrality, but rather unambiguous recognisability and common usage in English language publications. Arguments based on these grounds may be valid; all others are spurious. So then; what's the common name in English language publications? Knepflerle (talk) 23:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• The common name is Occupied territories of Azerbaijan. Please see UN Security Council Resolutions [3], [4] resolution of PACE [5] and I can cite plenty of other sources. Google search gives the following results. Security belt of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic has only 3 hits, all to Wikipedia and its mirrors, which means that the present title is OR. Occupied territories of Azerbaijan has 17,700 hits, which means that it is the most widely used term. Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• So we should either use neutral name, that is 7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan, or follow our naming policies and give preference to unambiguous recognisability and common usage in English language publications - Occupied territories of Azerbaijan. Chippolino (talk) 18:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

  But term "occupied territories of Azerbaijan" usually refers to all territories controlled by Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army, including territories of former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, not to territories, which are object of discussed article. The objects of this article and your term are really different. Dinamik (talk) 22:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

  That's not a problem. We can make corrections to the article to fix that. Grandmaster (talk) 06:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

  But if me make such corrections to the article we will take the second article about Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, which is called by Azerbaijani people "occupied territories". I think, it won't be correct to have 2 articles about one object. Term "occupied terrirories" refers to all territory, controlled by Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and we have such article, and term "7 districts of Azerbaijan..." refers to object of discussed article. Dinamik (talk) 17:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

  I don't think so. The article about "NKR" also covers these 7 districts. So even if the article is only about 7 districts, it still repeats some of the information that is contained in the article about "NKR". There will be some overlap between these 2 articles anyway, no matter what you call it. Plus, the terms like "Security belt" are OR and not generally used to refer to these districts. Grandmaster (talk) 05:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

  Article about NKR gives common information about NKR, this articles gives specific information about history and political status (which is rather unique) of this territories. I look at results below and see, that term "buffer zone" is in use. Dinamik (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"security belt" nagorno karabagh gives 368 hits, almost all seem to be specific to this subject, "security belt" nagorno karabakh gives 345 hits, again almost all of them specific to this subject. That would seem to show there are enough English-language examples to justify the current title. Meowy 17:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"7 districts of Azerbaijan" gets 8 hits, all of them on-topic, all of them of also seem to be of Azeri origin. "7 Armenian controlled districts of Azerbaijan" gets none. Meowy 17:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... "buffer zone" nagorno karabagh gets 6,290 hits - a lot more than for "security belt", so maybe the title should change to "Nagorno-Karabagh buffer zone". "Buffer zone" is also probably more neutral: NK says it needs the buffer zone because it acts as a security zone. Meowy 18:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"buffer zone nagorno karabakh" gets 0 hits. You don't perform the search correctly. So the most popular and appropriate title is Occupied territories of Azerbaijan, it gets the most hits, plus it is the term used by the international community. Grandmaster (talk) 06:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

I would like to notice, that term "occupied territories of Azerbaijan" usually refers to all territories controlled by Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army, including territories of former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, not to territories, which are object of discussed article. I think, we should talk about moving article to something about Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by Nagorno-Karabakh Defense Army, if this moving is such necessary. Dinamik (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not just military forces from Karabakh, but also from Armenia. So it would be better to call it Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by Armenian armed forces. That's what international community calls them anyway. Grandmaster (talk) 17:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

In this case we can consider variants Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by armed forces, mainly armenian nationality or Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by armed forces, most of which has armenian nationality, because they can thought that "armenian armed forces" means "armed forces of Armenia". Dinamik (talk) 21:36, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Armenian forces is the term, used by UN and other international organizations. Armenian forces does not necessarily mean forces from Armenia, just any ethnically Armenian forces. We can add the word ethnic, if needed, though I believe it is not necessary: Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by ethnic Armenian forces. Grandmaster (talk) 07:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

An article's title exists so that it can be easily found by readers, if more clarification is needed beyond the article title then that can be given in the introduction section of the article. The non-specific and overly-long "Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by ethnic Armenian forces" is not suitable for a Wikipedia article title. "Political status of 7 districts of Azerbaijan, controlled by armed forces, most of which has armenian nationality" is even worse. What on earth would make anyone think a mouthful like that would be suitable for a title? Even the current title is far too long - I suggest changing it to the "Nagorno-Karabakh security belt". Meowy 19:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the last proposal of Meowy: Nagorno-Karabakh security belt is clear and probably the only neutral version. --Vacio (talk) 06:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Security belt is not neutral and reflects Armenian POV, if anything, "occupied territories" is a generally accepted term and this is what the international community calls those 7 districts. Grandmaster (talk) 08:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Security belt is very neutral and simple term. And if you really feel that its POV, I will have no choice, but ask for "liberated territories", so we can have another useless endless discussion. VartanM (talk) 10:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone recognize "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" for the security belt (read 7 districts of Azerbaijan occupied by the Armed forces of Republic of Armenia) to carry any legitimacy in title? I think some Wiki editors are still in the illusion world, as the negotiation on release of those territories are conducted between Azerbaijan and Armenia directly, no such party as NKR is known or involved. Atabəy (talk) 08:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Armenian, Azerbaijani and Russian presidents signed the Moscow declaration in which these countries will focus on the solution of the conflict, as we all know "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" has been excluded in the talks. This means its a intergovernmential conflict something Armenia has been trying to deny for a decade but now our governments have all agreed upon it. See here. This conflict is about Armenia vs Azerbaijan and nothing else thus the title show be reflected on the reality and not being so misleading.Baku87 (talk) 12:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

What will users say about Buffer zone of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic? Dinamik (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Same as the present title. It is not neutral, as it reflects the opinion of NK separatists and ignore the opinion of the international community. Plus, it is not the common name for these areas. Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Security zone and Buffer zone are synonyms they are the same thing and it only reflects one perspective. The international community has agreed this is a intergovernmental conflict and sees these regions clearly as occupied regions. Baku87 (talk) 12:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

HRW and USIP reports mention this areas as regions of Azerbaijan ruled or occupied by NK forces, and the-NK War as one between Azerbaijan and NK itself ([6][7][8][9]), so occupation by the Republic of Armenia don't needs to discussed here. However even the first one only reflects one of the two conceptions. The second is, as VartanM highlighted, that these areas are liberated Armenian lands. Here a quote from the western historian Robert H. Hewsen, in reference to one of this districts, Kelbajar, which according to him was liberated during the Nagorno-Karabakh War.

Karvatjar
The Soviet raion of Kelbajar (Arm. Karvatjar) corresponds to the ancient district of Vaykunik’ (medieval Upper Khach’ēn, later Tsar). A land of high mountains, deep gorges, and rich pastureland, Vaykunik’ was the territory of the Khaghbakid branch of the Siunid princes of Khach’ēn, ancestors of the later meliks of Tsar, the latter holding the area until the coming of the Russian. Though remote, Tsar nevertheless suffered from the deportations of Shah ’Abbās in the early seventeenth century and was almost denuded of its Armenian inhabitants. Eventually, Kurds settled the area, as they did in the district of Kashat’agh across the Karabagh (Arts’akh) Mountains to the south. Only the monasteries, churches, and extensive funeral monuments bore witness to the essential Armenian nature of the original population. Liberated from the Azeris during the Karabagh War, Karvatjar was for the first time surveyed for its Armenological monuments (…) numbering close to 750, include monasteries, churches, chapels, fortresses, forts, bridges, cemeteries, burial mounds, inscriptions, dwelling places, khachk’ars, and petroglyphs.
Robert H. Hewsen, Armenia: A Historical Atlas. The University of Chicago Press, 2001, pp. 264-265. ISBN: 978-0-226-33228-4

I recall that this prominent historian is many times quoted by Azeri users, especially Grandmaster, who considers R. Hewsen a top expert. Thus I expect that Azeri users will agree at least that there are two contradict conceptions (with respectively political and historical bases) and therefro any title of this article, which would refelct only one of this conceptions would not be neutral. --Vacio (talk) 09:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

He is an expert on ancient history, but not the modern days. Plus, he is known to be an Armenian nationalist. You need to show that liberated territories is a generally accepted name. The fact that 1 source uses it does not make it such. Grandmaster (talk) 06:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)