Talk:Trope (literature)

"constitutive of our experience"

This is an abstruse and overblown claim. We shouldn't be running around willy-nilly throwing quotes in Wikipedia just because an academic ejaculated them. One also shouldn't have to read through an entire scholarly paper cited here just to see if some lofty-sounding claim is justified. Please tone down the postmodern mumbo jumbo or at least attempt to provide some intelligible explanation. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Csdavis1 (talk • contribs) 07:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is your concern that the reference given does not support this sentence, that the reference is not of sufficient quality or standing to be used in a Wikipedia article, or that you simply don't agree with its sentiments? Citation always assumes that the first two conditions are met, so why you should single out this instance in particular is not clear. Would it be sufficient to re-from the sentence slightly so that it is clear that the concept, or claim as you put it, being described is specific to a particular theoretical approach to literary trope? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.8.155 (talk) 09:42, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Literature and Linguistics

A trope in literature little different from a trope in linguistics, so this article is superfluous; and it seems more interested in defining 'topos' anyway, which it does in a highly contentious way ('meme'? I thought the jury was still out there) - 'topos' in literature is simply a commonplace. And a wikipedia article probably isn't the place to start suggesting how one might conduct a creative writing class ...

00:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but you do recognize a difference, despite being little. And literary critics are not all linguists. I don't think the little-different literary sense would be appreciated as simply a side-note mention in a linguistic discussion. It is important to recognize the sense of the word "trope" within the literature discipline. As mentioned under "A Fresh Start," literary analysis employs the word "trope," and I don't think the word is used to spark a debate about Aristotle's "topos" (although that discussion does exist). Conversely, "topos" is not some commonplace ingredient of literature; even if so, that's not a ground to resist discussion of the idea. Obviously, this entire concept is not understood by some, further justifying the need for an article on the topic. I won't touch the mention of Abrams as an authority... --Malecasta (talk) 00:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This needs work. Cory.willis 05:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about "trope" and spends its time discussion "topos". This is kind of silly. Goldfritha 18:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has substantiated the claim that "trope" is wrong, I'm removing it. Goldfritha 02:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The definition of "tropos" here is almost completely in opposition with the definitions I've found elsewhere. Merriam-Webster defines it as: 1 a : a word or expression used in a figurative sense : FIGURE OF SPEECH b : a common or overused theme or device : CLICHE <the usual horror movie tropes> 2 : a phrase or verse added as an embellishment or interpolation to the sung parts of the Mass in the Middle Ages http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=trope

Neither during my extensive studies nor in my several editions of M. H. Abrams's A Glossary of Literary Terms have I ever come across a definition of “trope” coming even remotely close to the one exhibited on this page. Since this definition seems (a) rather related to the term “topos” and (b) insufficently so at best, I'd suggest it be deleted—barring someone comes forward with a substantiated argument in its favor soon.

gyokusai 17:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is a distinction between the linguistic usage of trope and the literary usage of trope. I think this is a distinction between the academic usage and the common usage. The trouble is that only academics are interested in its use in linguistics, but the common man does take an interest in literature, or TV and movies. So somebody who was used to using the "common" meaning of it applied to stories, saw the definition talking about "figures of speech" and "metaphors" and 1) Failed to consider language is a pretty important part of literature 2) Didn't want to think of their own understanding of the word as "uneducated" I've seen "trope" used in a film studies text, and it used it in a sense closer to the one currently classified as "linguistics" even though you'd expect film to bear more in common with literature. The book treated it as a "story telling shorthand" and cited an example of a marching army being represented by a row of spears.

RRH - 19 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.112.129.22 (talk) 03:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me RRH (unsigned), but not only is the spears/army example 100 per cent compliant with a well-defined linguistic trope easily found in that section, the phrasing “story telling shorthand” too is quite appropriate to describe how linguistic tropes often work (for examples see Abrams again). Futhermore, you don’t give any references or examples for your alleged “common” usage and meaning. Finally, I do not think that the term “trope” is in “common” usage at all, neither in tv parlance, nor in newspapers, nor in the streets. (The book you’ve quoted from without further reference is also an academic one, b.t.w.)

So can anyone come forward with concrete, manifest, palpable examples and references for this “trope in literature” which for all the evidence brought up so far is nothing but an erroneous use for “topos,” please?

gyokusai 12:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gyokusai, I agree with you more than you might think. My interest in this definition came about because of a post I made on tvtropes.org asking that more effort should be made to clarify the definition of trope, because I felt many people on the site were using it incorrectly. (Try not to read too much of that site, or you'll tear your hair out.) The book was "How to Read a Film" by James Monaco. I could try to find the page and quote, but I intended it as an example of academic usage.

As for this nebulous "other" meaning, I guess I shouldn't say it's a "common" meaning, since for all I know it's a variance particular only to far too many people who post to tvtropes.org. The Merriam-Webster definition mentions "cliche" which is a meaning that you could probably find in use in newspaper movie reviews, but not in academia.

RRH 142.161.110.90 03:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Fresh Start

I removed the grossly misleading redirect (there is a considerable difference between literature and linguistics) and wrote from scratch a new stub. Contributions/expansions welcome. Please do not be tempted to make this page an exhaustive list of tropes; if you must, start a new list page. See also here for a list of some character-related tropes. Freederick 20:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a few tropes, but have kept close to the secondary source from which this list came [1].--Gavin Collins (talk) 09:04, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

I corrected the historically unjustified relation of trope with τροπή inserted by The Cat and the Owl. It is falsified by OED, Merriam-Webster, and Larousse Dictionnaire, and of course it doesn't explain the Latin tropus; see also Talk:Trope (linguistics). Omnipedian (talk) 05:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate Article

Trope (linguistics) and Trope (Literature) should be merged into one article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.134.232.158 (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]