User talk:Remember/Tiflis Bank Robbery

Lede

I saw your talk page comment at Wehwalt (he's my mentor).

At the bottom of the lede, I would take away the comment "with a statue to that bank robber turned revolutionary leader, and also be the site of a monument to and the grave of the head conspirator, Kamo." and change it to "with a statue of Lenin, as well as a monument and grave for head conspirator, Komo."

Revised. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

In terms of just facts and writing, I wonder are the statues together? Next to the grave? When was it named Lenin square, when were the statues (and grave) put there?

Not exactly sure of the placement. Need to get further information on the burial of Kamo and the look of Lenin Square. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The page as is, tells a story. You accomplish your purpose, better by being dispassionate. It's damning enough as is. Also, the kind of parenthetical harumph you had at the end of the lede is just bad writing as it is repetition.

TCO (talk) 18:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

TCO, it is just a first draft of the lede.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I won't nit at it then. ;)

It is a cool story and a lot of good info. Reading about bank robberies is kind of fun.  ;)

TCO (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think people are going to love this once it is done. I consider myself very well versed in history and I had never heard of this. TCO, why don't you play with the text as well? I have to go out in a few.

I also consider myself well-versed in history and this amazing story also slipped my attention. When I stumbled across it, I couldn't believe that it didn't have a wiki article about it since it seems to have been a major event. I think that others will really enjoy this story and I hope that we can make this a great article before it goes live. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of points.

The (beautiful!) image of Tblisi in the 1910s is going to need evidence it was published pre 1917.

That will be tough since I just found it in Commons. Remember (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Not impossible. Library of Congress may have info, or it may be in a pre-1917 book available on google books. Somewhere on the net there is an image search engine, you plug in an image on a web page and it tells you what other web pages it appears o.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I will look into it. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You simply cannot have 40-odd refs to a 16-page block of text. It's going to have to be broken down by page number.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that was probably going to have to happen. Darn. Remember (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's why you brought me in, I assume! To point out stuff like that--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Very true. Remember (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done. Remember (talk) 16:42, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

playing with the text

My first inclination is to do something about the currency markers. I will check the MOS, but I can't believe that wikilinking US dollars is needed, or that both the symbol and the words should be used. Sorry, that this is a nit. It's just my personal style is to flit from small to large issues, and that I find from messing around with small stuff, it at least gets me into the text. TCO (talk) 19:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Any help both great and small is appreciated. Remember (talk) 19:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the currency edits. The conversion looks correct from my untrained eye and I think it reads much better. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed the currency conversion section and just relied upon a books estimate of today's US Dollars. Otherwise I thought it was original research.Remember (talk) 12:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Question - other editors to review

Are there any other editors that work in this area (e.g., old Soviet History, bank robberies) that you all think I should get involved in this article before it goes live? I just want to make sure that this the best article it can be. Any thoughts on anyone who could help out in that effort would be most appreciated. Remember (talk) 20:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

User:BorisG has weighed in on the Khrushchev article and may be of help. Also, what is your thought on day month year format rather than month day year? I get endless grief at the Khrushchev article because it is month day year. See WP:MOSDATE, which says you should begin as you mean to go on.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I am happy either way on the date issue. As for BorisG, should I contact him or do you want to contact him? FYI - I am going to have to stop working on this page soon for awhile since I have to do other work, but please continue working on it while I am away. I should check in sometime later tonight or tomorrow to see what has happened. Remember (talk) 20:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I like day month year, since it's easier to read: 27 November 2010. The two numbers are separated by a word.

You could ask for help at military history also. Personally, I would hate to have a bunch of people messing with "my" article!  ;)

TCO (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I have changed the date format. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

No, we're not that close, you can contact him as the lead editor of this article, Remember. I advise DMY as well, just to save later grief.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I will contact BorisG. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

He doesn't appear interested in working on this at this time. Remember (talk) 19:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I would hate to have more than four people actively involved with this article. Three would actually be enough, but I could live with four. I happen to agree with Heinlein's comment that more than three people can't decide where to have lunch.

I agree that a core group of people working on it is better than loads more. I think I will asking people after BorisG. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to that article from Russian Review? I envy college students their access to unlimited online articles. When I was in Vancouver, I went to do some research at Simon Fraser University and they let me on one of their computers and I just went wild, emailing myself copies of stuff. Unfortunately, I don't have Vancouver in my travel plans anytime soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

No immediate plans, but I have been thinking about becoming a "friend" of my local state university library, which would give me improved journal access. Would not do it for Wiki, but so I can look up medical articles or the like for myself. TCO (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

No, but that article in the Russian Review looks like it could be great. Kamo is fascinating and I need to add more information about his post arrest. He evidently feigns insanity, is deported to Russia, escapes prison, is captured and sentenced to death, has his sentence commuted to 20 years, and then is freed sometime after the Russian revolution and then buried (for some reason which I don't know why) in Erivan Square. So any good sources we could find on him would be useful. Remember (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Other references

It seems like a lot of the detail comes from one book. My first concern looking at the article was to wonder if it was some obscure Georgian-Russian conspiracy theory. When I saw the worldwide coverage, I knew different, but just telling you initial reaction.

A. Suggest adding a few sources at least to the intial reporting of the bombing themselves, like NYT, or even just some general biographies of Stalin (or histories of Bolshevism), that at least refer to the robbery and Stalin's role, with a couple sentences. Obviously the bulk of the detial will need to come from that source, you have, but would just be better to make people feel that the event itself occurred. Also, I'm interested if the Bolshevik role is generally accepted or not, was accepted at the time, or at least alleged, etc.

Will do. Remember (talk) 12:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

B. Not sure how to do this in the "wiki sense", but encourage you to take a look at that book and evaluate its quality (is it by a journalist or an academic, does it come across as accurate in other areas, etc.) TCO (talk) 21:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I have checked up on Young Stalin and the Secret File of Joseph Stalin and they both seem very reputable. Remember (talk) 12:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A few comments

An infobox would be nice. There is a news event infobox that I find very useful under cercumstances like this.

I am generally pro-infobox so I am happy to include one. I am working on the best one below. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• "Tiflis bank" in the lede seems a bit odd. I understood it to be the Tiflis branch of a St. Petersburg bank, just from a Google Books preview (I've ordered a used copy of Young Stalin)

Agreed. I will look to clarify. Also, wow, I am amazed that you are going to buy "Young Stalin." Thanks for the help! You are going above and beyond! Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. It was a transportation between the Post Office and the Tiflis Branch of the Russian State Bank. Remember (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am not thrilled with the structure of the article. In my opinion, sections or subsections of text should be in the area of 3-5 paragraphs. Accordingly, the long section on "Bank Robbery" should be subdivided in some way while the short, 1-2 paragraph sections should be combined Avoid one sentence paragraphs.

I will try to revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Let me know what you think of the revision. Remember (talk) 14:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Had Stalin taken the nickname "Stalin" then? If not, it might be wise to introduce him as his Georgian tonguetwister birth name and add (who would become known as Joseph Stalin). I would still casually refer to him as Stalin after that, no point in confusing the readers.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I will revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I added a note to explain the issue. Let me know what you think. Remember (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Avoid the construction "would be" as a substitute for a past tense verb. Yes, I know it is a way of indicating the passage of time in the text, but reviewers hate the construction. I will take it out where I see it.

Agreed. I will revise anything you don't. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Remember (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• The whole signals from Bachua thing is confusing. We have David remembring the robbers leaving the shop, I gather at a signal from Bachua, but it isn't clear which signal from Bachua is meant, the warning that the stagecoach was approaching or the one getting the robbers to leave the shop.

I will try to clarify. It was very confusing for me to figure out since I largely had to depend upon Young Stalin and he described the robbery in a weird format. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I think I fixed this. Let me know if it needs further clarification. Remember (talk) 14:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• Excepting for a child, a member of royalty who doesn't have a commonly-used last name, or where several people with the same last name are being discussed, first name alone should not be used to refer to a person.

Agreed. Made a mistake with Bachua. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Remember (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I started to edit the section about Kamo's trials, but stopped in confusion. If he was tried for the robbery in his second trial, what was he tried for (and sentenced to death!) the first time?

• he was captured after another abortive attempt of a similar raid in 1912 (some of his colleagues failed to show up). He was sentenced to several death penalties at once but it was commutted to life imprisonment under a timely amnesty. I will provide details later. - BorisG (talk) 14:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Boris is right. In both instances he was tried for the bank robbery (along with other crimes). He evidently was sentenced to death 4 times (as I understand it) in his life and escaped all of them. Fascinating evil character. I will try to clarify, but it is hard since there are not a lot of sources solely regarding Kamo and his trials. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

• Remember, sometimes you have a sentence with two major clauses and you start both off with the same noun (often a person). The second time, you should generally use a pronoun or just omit it entirely. Not a criticism, just a writing tip. For example, "Wehwalt edited my article, and Wehwalt got real shirty about my writing." would be better "Wehwalt edited my article, and he got real shirty about my writing" or perhaps even better "Wehwalt edited my article, and got real shirty about my article."

Agreed. I think I avoid it just because when I am working on something I will move paragraphs and sentences around so I like not to run into pronoun antecedent problems while I am revising, but I will try to revise. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Revised. Let me know if there are any further sentences that need revising. Remember (talk) 14:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I will wait until you are done before looking. Everyone has prose quirks, the trick i to be aware of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• I've made a number of changes that I think reflect events. My words are not handed down on golden tablets, do not fear to change them or revert me, I am as capable of as much idiocy as the next guy.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I will review and change anything I think is wrong.

I have now reviewed all of your changes and made the appropriate corrections. Remember (talk) 13:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there any information about how this incident was described under the Soviets? What was the Party line during Stalin's time, did it get mentioned during Khrushchev's time when Stalin was considered somewhat of a criminal? What about during the Stalin resurgence of the Brezhnev's years?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find any. The armenians evidently made three movies about Kamo during the communist era (which might be fascinating to see), but I haven't seen any of them. I would be happy to include this information if anyone can find it, but I think I have reached the limits of what I can find through my research skills and my sources available. Any suggestions or advice would be welcome. Remember (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments from BorisG

1. I know about this story for longer than I can remember, but don't know many details (hence my comment on my talk page).

Your help is still greatly appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. There is an artile about this in Russian Wikipedia, but it is short and not very good quality. However it does have some interesting details lacking from the English version, such as incidents of people detained with the 500 R bank notes in various European countries.

I read the article (with the help of Google translate). I agree that it is interesting on the arrests, but I haven't been able to find any such information. If you can find sources for these arrests and trials, I would be happy to include. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. The Russian entry has a number of sources. One is a Russian-language transcript from Radio Libery - is that a RS? Another is a story from a Russian magazine. The third one is perhaps most intersting, since it is contemporary and in English - a facsimile of a New York Time article of 1908 about the arrest of Maxim Litvinov and his girlfriend in Paris!

I have the NY Times article currently cited in the article (see citation number 32) but I don't have the other sources. I don't feel confident citing to russian sources based on google translate because I believe I could get it dramatically wrong, but if you can read and translate russia, I would have no problem including that information into this article. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. Russian sources contain a lot of interesting details, and many transcripts of contemporary police cables. Many names of those involved are given, based on the memoirs of Kamo's widow and some other accounts. Stalin's involvement is suspected but no evidence has apparently emerged. Krasin is mentioned repeatedly as the main organiser - consistent with what I have read before (see below).

Odd. I have seen many sources now claiming that Stalin was the mastermind, but from what I have read about Krasin, it wouldn't surprise me that he could have been. Unfortunately, I don't have English sources to support this claim, but any sources or information you can provide regarding Krasin's activities would be greatly appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

1. A few years ago I read that the robbery was the trigger for the split between Lenin and Krasin (and Bogdanov). Lenin pretty much ordered the robbery but when accused by fellow party colleagues, especially the Mensheviks, of the direct violation of the resolution of the 5th party congress banning such operations, he distanced himself from it and blamed everything on Krasin, who was number 2 (and Treasurer) of the Bolshevik faction. This in turn caused considerable unease within the Bolshevik faction, which saw Lenin's behaviour as a betrayal of a fellow Bloshevik leader. I've read this in a book, definitely a RS, but I need to dig it out. - BorisG (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

That definately sounds right to me. After the robbery there was an investigations by the RSDLP and other communist organizations and Lenin and Stalin both tried to push off responsiblity onto others. Any sources you can provide regarding this information would be most appreciated. Remember (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have located the source. It is an essay "On the history of the Bolshevist Center" by a porminent contemporary historian Boris Nicolaevsky. The essay was preserved as part of Nicolaevsky Collection at the Hoover Institution Archives, Stanford, California, and was published only recently in Secret pages of history, Ed. Yu. G. Felshtinsky, Humanities Publishing, Moscow, 1995, ISBN 5-87121-007-4, in Russian (Тайные страницы истории / Ред. -сост. Ю. Г. Фельштинский. -- М.: Издательство гуманитарной литературы, 1995. -- 512 с., ISBN 5-87121-007-4). I will present some of the findings from this essay below. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Note to Wehwalt and BorisG

Thank you so much for your comments and your time. I greatly appreciate your help in improving this article and I think you both provided excellent comments, recommendations, and thoughts. Any further input you could provide would be most appreciated, but I would understand if you want to move on to your own interests. I sincerly just want to make this an accurate, reliable, and well-written article on an event that I find fascinating (and under-reported) so any help you provide to further that goal is most appreciated. I will try to work through all of your comments quickly. Unfortunately real life responsiblities keep interceding in my wiki hobby so it may take awhile, but I promise I will get it done. Let me know if you have any further comments, suggestions, or questions regarding this article. Remember (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I will try to help. I have no specific WP interests and I am quite happy to concentrate on this (particularly on Russian sources), but I too have a lot of work committments, so will try when I can. Also putting me and Wehwalt in the same category may be misleading. Wehwalt is one of most prolific contributers to Wikipedia with a number of featured articles to his name. I am just an occasional contributer with a handful of short articles only. My most recent exercise is Peter Goullart. I think I know how to write articles (I write and publish a lot in my working life) but I am a slow writer and I don't think I have the patience:) Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate it, but everyone's contributions count, FA is just an incentive to drive us on, we all do what we can for the Wiki. I think this should be an excellent article once you iron the kinks out, one of the advantages of applying high standards from the beginning.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. To make me focus on something, can you please point out the questions that you want me to address using Russian sources. Initially I wanted just to translate them for you, but there is just a bit too much out there. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 06:36, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I think I would want information mainly on: Kamo's burial and removal from Pushkin gardens, subsequent trails and convictions for either the robbery or cashing in marked notes, how this affect Stalin and Lenin within the party, and any other information that you think I should add. Remember (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The note regarding Stalin is fine. If I'm not picky, someone else will be, there are a lot of smart people on Wikipedia and it helps to think in advance.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

To do for Remember

Remember's status

- Very busy at work. May have to wait a while to get all of the stuff on the to do list accomplished. But I will get to it. Remember (talk) 13:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC) - Same with me. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

To do

Finished with everything!

Done

• Could add info from this source

Actually, it contains many interesting details, so you can explore it before looking at my stuff from Nicolaevsky. Or you can use Souvarine to confirm some of Nicolaevsky's statements. There is a significant overlap, and Souvarine is in English. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Done. Remember (talk) 14:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Additional stuff that could be done

Things that could be done if someone wanted:

• Could add old Tiflis picture if you can figure out permissions. - Check out Category:Cityscapes of Tbilisi from wikicommons.

Findings from Boris Nicolaevsky

Nicolaevsky's essay On the history of the Bolshevist Center (mentioned above) contains a number of important facts. Some of these complement what is currently in the article, and some contradict them. I do not want to start editing the article straight away, because if you are editing certain sections at the same time, it will be a mess. Furthermore, I do not know the tone and strength of the evidence presented by other sources. I will simply present interesting and important facts and findings from Nicolaevsky here, and you can pick and choose what you find useful. Some of these are trivial and well known (but not yet mentioned in the article). Some are well researched by Nicolaevsky, mostly based on primary sources. Some are still a bit merky.

• Some background

1. At the 4th congress of the RSDWP, in the wake of the defeat of the 1905 revoolution, Bolshevik and Menshevik factions were trying to forge a united front.
2. This stance was reaffirmed at the 5th (London) Congress. A Central Committee was formed and it was decided that factions won't be forming any separate committees. However the factions did not work together , and Bolsheviks formed their own Bolshevist Centre, whose existence was kept secret from the rest of the party (Mensheviks and ethnic factions). The Centre was led by a Finance Group or Committee of three comprised of Lenin, Krasin and Bogdanov. Lenin was the ideological, political and organisational leader, and editor of the Bolshevik paper, Proletary. Krasin was treasurer, major fundraiser and also head of all the paramilitary operations. Not exactly clear what was Bogdanov's role, but it was mainly to do with the paper.
3. A major resolution of the 5th (London) Congress banned all expropriations, an ephemism for armed robberies. This resolution passed with a vast majority of 65% against 6% (others abstained or did not vote). All Mensheviks and even some Bolsheviks supported the resolution. Against it was a small group of Bolsheviks including Lenin (Krasin was under arrest in Moscow and did not take part in the congress; Bogdanov was a non-voting delegate).
4. Against this background, the Finance Group planned a number of expropriations in different parts of Russia.
5. In particular, they set up a direct line of communication with Kamo.

• Aftermath: political consequencies for Social Democrats

1. After the raid, Kamo personally delivered the money to the Finance Group in Kuokkala, Finland (then part of Russian Empire).
2. According ot Nikolaevsky, upon delivery, Kamo signed a 'contract' between his group and the Finance Group, which stipulated, among other things, that the Finance Group undertakes that under no circumstances the information about this operation and the money will be discussed with any party organisations.
3. Initially, it was not clear who was behind the raid, but after the arrest of Kamo, Litvinov and others, Bolshevik connection was obvious.
4. The Mensheviks felt betrayed and angry. Clearly, Bolsheviks not only operated their factional governing body, indepenent from the unified Central Committee, but this centre was directing operations explicitly prohibited by the party congress. Leader of Mensheviks, Georgy Plekhanov, called for separation from the Bolsheviks. His colleague Julius Martov called the Bolshevist Centre something between a secret factional central committee and a criminal gang. The CC started an investigation into the incident and sent its representatives to the Caucasses, resulting in the expulsion of certain members, including Stalin. Later the investigation into the role of the Center was conducted by an overseas buraeu of CC (for security reasons). However in all cases the investigation was stalled by the Bolsheviks, and nothing came of it.
5. In January 1908, fearing police crackdown after the arrest of Litvinov, Lenin fled to Europe and established his headquarters in Geneva. Krasin remained in Finland and was eventually arrested in March 1908 but later released. This release is still unexplained. Police archives show that Okhrana knew from Zhitomirsky of Krasin's connection to the Tiflis raid, but failed to provide the Finnish police with the evidence, nor created any obstacles for his return to St. Petersburgh in 1913.
6. The connection to the raid made Bolshevist Centre unpopular not only with Mensheviks, but also with European social-democrats. Thus, Lenin's desire to distance himself from the legacy of the raid may have been one of the motivations of his split rift with Bogdanov and Krasin.
7. When the split happenned (ostensibly due to irreconcilable philosophical differences between Lenin and Bogdanov), the Finance Group was dissolved but Krasin kept the remaining money and failed to hand it over to a new treasurer. Krasin and Bogdanov planned to use the money to provide finacial and legal support to Kamo and other arrested colleagues (they considered themselves bound by the Kuokkala 'contract'). In the insuing argument, Lenin accused Krasin of misappropriation of funds. - BorisG (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• Discussion

Oh that is all great stuff. Keep it coming. Also, feel free to edit the article now because I am going to take a break for awhile. Remember (talk) 17:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way, BorisG you wouldn't happen to have access to this source, would you? I have been trying to get it but keep running against brick walls. Remember (talk) 17:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Will check. But now it is 2 am and that's enough for tonight. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Got your source on Kamo. How should I send it to you? - BorisG (talk) 09:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds fascinating. I'm continuing to monitor, once things have settled down a bit, I'll do another run through. Darn, what I wouldn't give for unfettered access to jstor ... best way to send stuff is for Remember to use the email function to send BorisG one, wiki will not support attachments, but in the reply from BorisG to Remember, you can send an attachment.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow that is all great stuff that you found BorisG. I would love to incorporate it into the article. Now the question becomes how do we do that. I can't read Russian so I can't review the source material, but I trust your translation and citation. Perhaps BorisG could try to revise the article to incorporate this new information? Again, I would do it myself, but I can't read the source material and so I would be afraid that I am stating something incorrectly or citing to the wrong page or lost something in translation. Let me know your thoughts. Remember (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I would really prefer that you incorporate it yourself. You have a better grasp of the article itself, its logic and layout. I have not translated anything, I describe everything in my own words, except when I quote Plekhanov, Martov etc. Thus there are no Copyright issues. I can provide page numbers for every bullet point above. I can also review the result. I actually love to review and edit things (I have experience as one of the editors of a scientific journal). Is this OK? - BorisG (talk) 16:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

May I also suggest that you first incorporate the material from the jstor article and maybe Krupskaya, which is all in English already. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. I will give it a try that way and note which areas I need you to review. Thanks again for the help! This article keeps coming along. Remember (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the free online version does not have any page numbers but I can check them using Google Books. - BorisG (talk) 00:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Krupskaya

A lot of (secondary) sources cite the memoirs of Krupskaya (Lenin's wife and secretary of the Bolshevist center). I have located an English translation here. There are brief accounts of Kamo's visit to Finland in 1907 (with the money) and later in Paris (after his escape from prison). Tiflis expropriation is mentioned without much fuss. Please have a look. It may be a primary source (kind of) but given that so many rumours exist about this event, this authentic information is valuable, I think.

I will take a look. Remember (talk) 13:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

DYK suggestions

Since this article is coming along well, I thought I would solicit ideas for the DYK. Insert suggestions below. Remember (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin (pictured) helped organize a bank robbery where 341,000 rubles ($3.4 Million in 2008 USD) was stolen, fifty people injured, and forty people killed.

...that Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin helped organize a robbery where bombs were thrown at a bank stagecoach in a crowded city square resulting in 341,000 rubles stolen ($3.4 Million in 2008 USD), fifty people injured, and forty people killed.

• I think the first is bad, but the second one is also questionable. The number of victims is disputed. Stalin's role is disputed. The amount stolen is disputed (I have seen 250,000 in most sources). The amount in today's currency seems small. How is it computed? - BorisG (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Another comment

Bachua's motivation in inviting David into the tavern puzzles me. Was it to keep him relatively safe from harm? It could use a brief explanation.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

BorisG's review finished

I have finished my review of the latest version. I have other concerns that I will post here, but we can do all of that in a regular fashion. Please review my changes (not only in boldface sections) and remove the bold fonts. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 02:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)