Talk:Nizami Ganjavi: Difference between revisions
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 1|Archive 1]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 2|Archive 2]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 3|Archive 3]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 4|Archive 4]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 5|Archive 5]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami Ganjavi/Archive 6|Archive 6]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami/AD | An involved user's perspective on the article's intro and Nezami's heritage]] |
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* [[Talk:Nezami/ChristianRuymbeke|Email from Prof. Christian Ruymbeke who had mentioned a Jewish background of Nezami]] |
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== his heritage == |
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The lead states "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Republic of Azerbaijan, Afghanestan,..." I would like to understand what this means? Otherwise I would like to remove "Azarbaijan". As far as Nezami the poet is concerned he had no idea what turkic-language is. This is well explained in the article. Now does the sentence I am criticising try to say "the translation of Ganjavi's poetry"? If so this must be stated explicitly. Because everyone knows that poetry is not translatable and hence translated version of Ganjavi's poetry has almost no relation to Nezami ganjavi. Or does the sentence means "grave of Nezami Ganjavi" is appreciated? If so, this must be mentioned, because appreciation of graves is quite interesting and new. In either case the sentence should become "His heritage is widely appreciated and shared by Iran and persian speaking countries". But to add azerbaijan we should mention either "through modern translation by XYZ" or "because of a claim that his tomb is located there".--[[User:Xashaiar|Xashaiar]] ([[User talk:Xashaiar|talk]]) 10:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::Well, you are right there was no Azerbaijani-Turkish language, ethnicity, culture and etc. during the time of Nezami[http://gumilevica.kulichki.com/HE2/he2510.htm](And I mean this in a scientific sense just like there was no Mexican or American culture or Modern English (it was Middle English and some groups in history appear later than others)). Overall, it seems the attempted political detachment of Nezami Ganjavi from Persian civilization is recognized by authors who write about the former USSR: Yo'av Karny, “Highlanders : A Journey to the Caucasus in Quest of Memory”, Published by Macmillan, 2000. Pg 124: “In 1991 he published a translation into Khynalug of the famous medieval poet Nezami, who is known as Persian but is claimed by Azeri nationalists as their own." However I think the lead is good.. It will keep away vandals and also a good source (Cambridge history of Iran): " Modern Azarbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world famous son". So the USSR nation building did popularize him somewhat. Someone sent me an article from Russian wikipedia about politicization of Nezami from an author name Tamashzivilli and wanted to put it in English. I simply said there is no need for it now. Basically my approach has been to be completely scientific (well not hundred percent for example see the latin alphabets in the intro or the intro itself) and try to maintain a friendly atmosphere for the article. Azerbaijan the country can also be proud of Nezami even if they can't read his masterpieces (translations obviously are poor and the words of the master are so tied to the language that probably Nezami is the most difficult poet to translate from Persian due to his play with words) and it is no big deal if we say he is a shared heritage by the Iran/Persian world (Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Persian speakers, Kurds..) and Azerbaijan the country. He is a Persian poet and he had Iranic ancestry(both mother and father's lineage who go back before the Seljuq era even, so making the change of him being a Turkmen nomad that became an urban Ganja urban dweler from his fatherside zero and he was orphaned from his father), but had he written his work in Arabic, he would be an Arabic poet. Nasimi/Esmail I who did not have Turkmen/Oghuz fatherlines are Azeri-Turkic poets or Pushkin is a Russian poet. This is the general scholarly convention used by Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, and etc, specially in an era when nationalities based on citizenship and state did not exist (Medieval Muslim world). For now the article is peaceful but if anyone pushes some sort of nationalistic pan-Turkism, we can just take it to mediation/arbcomm and permanently settle it and it is obvious administrators will go with what Encyclopedia of Islam, Iranica, Britannica and even what Azerbaijani officials say about Western Europe"Most in Europe consider Nizami a Persian poet."[http://www.today.az/news/society/35499.html] (the delegate does not know that there was no Azerbaijani-Turkic at the time of Nezami..). Note I say this simply from scholarly viewpoint as I have no ill feeling towards any editor or group due to their background, but simply we should not tolerate nationalistic nation building from any country or group (including ourselves) in this Encyclopedia. The term Azerbaijani itself in the Stalin/USSR (in actually when the USSR said "Azerbaijani" at least up 1970 they meant Medes/Caucasian Albanians where-as these population did not speak Turkic) was modified to mean different thing and now that they are independent, they can start more scientific and fresh historiography and in the end a large literature/history or etc. does not make any individual better although Azeri-Turkic itself has impressive literature (Fizuli, Nasimi..) relative to most languages of the world. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 17:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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So basically just keep the introduction, it does no harm, but if there are arguments, it can be changed to Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica, Iranica, even nationalistic Turkish scholars and most references with Persian poet on the first line (that will create vandals obviously but then admins will get involved). So overall the article can serve as an example of how a politicized issue can be peacefully written and some compromises made, specially with the sometimes tense atmosphere. I hope it remains peaceful like it has basically in the past two years and so, as Iranian users are not looking to have conflicts with users of any country, but simply keep their own heritage from politicization (which we criticize actions not human beings and not the vast majority of any citizen of any place and in this case the politicization is due to USSR and even Berteles was forced against his will as described by Tamashzivilli as he had Persian poet up 1935 until USSR nation building started and non-existent terms at the time of Nezami like Azerbaijani were ascribed to him and Azerbaijani it was described as Medes/Caucasian Albanians instead of Turkic (although heavy influence from Iranian languages/dna is present but scientifically it is a Turkic language). The same happened to Babak Khorramdin, Atropates, Medes, Zarathustra which are heritages of Iranian civilization..but this was due to USSR nation building (and the local population had no control) and these characters(such as Babak or Atropates) were not Turks either linguistically, culturallly or ethnically. Hopefully with the demise of USSR more scientific approaches to historiography will take place.--[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 20:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Basically I second Nepaheshgar here. The fact he had no idea what Turkic languages are does not cancel the fact that his heritage is appreciated in other countries. I see no reason of removal. It's interesting, that from different countries mentioned Xashaiar wants to remove only Azerbaijan. [[User:Brandmeister|Brand]]<i>[[User talk:Brandmeister|t]]</i> 21:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Still the argument stands. If "appreciation of Nezami in republic of Azerbaijan" is through translation it should be mentioned + the translator who made him more popular.--[[User:Xashaiar|Xashaiar]] ([[User talk:Xashaiar|talk]]) 21:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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The actual full translations to Azeri-Turkic were made around the time WWII, but still there is no problem and no big deal with the intro. Since these countries today are the ones that share in his heritage. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 21:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:OK. Though I meant it "nezami the poet", and made it clear that Nezami as a person from Ganja has certainly a heritage. But over all I agree with you here.--[[User:Xashaiar|Xashaiar]] ([[User talk:Xashaiar|talk]]) 21:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::Yes trust me I have been basically burdened with all sorts of unpleasent folks in this article. Here was one right now: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANezami_Ganjavi&diff=297295953&oldid=297293308]] who is the typical pan-Turkist types. What simply matters is [[WP:weight]], [[WP:RS]] and etc and even Azerbaijani ambassador admits majority of Western scholars mainly consider Nezami a Persian poet and some governments admit it too, will obviously try to change it [http://www.day.az/news/society/44452.html]. There seems to be an inherent hostility towards Iranians in general and Iranics/Persians in particular from the USSR era amongst some of the people of Caucusus Azerbaijan due to political philosophies such as pan-Turkism (although it is not serious as that of the hostility against Armenians but you can detect this hostility in lots of USSR era work and that sort of hostility manifests itself too in Wikipedia once in a while like the user I just mentioned), but I have done my best to simply criticize actions/ideas and not people. So if you see messages like these [[[[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANezami_Ganjavi&diff=297295953&oldid=297293308]]]], just delete them from the page. I tried to make it simple as I can, so both sides can share in his heritage despite their different opinions about his father's background (whom he was orphaned from anyhow). That is say his heritage is appreciate by Persian/Iranian world and also the modern Azeri-Turkic speaking country of the republic of [[Azerbaijan]]. We all agree on that and it is a constructive statement. And at the same time, based on very politically-motivated and untainble arguments, some nationalists claim his father was Turkic, and so I basically even have external links providing both views, and in the article I have provided a source for differences on his father's origin (with the exception of the fact that the source has changed her mind [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nezami_Ganjavi#Jewish_origin.3F_.28.21.21.21.21.21.21.21.29]). Fact is as Christine van Ruymbeke says, there is virtually nothing left on Nezami's biography. Also unlike any major Encyclopedia (Iranica, Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam, and overwhelming sources), I have not put Persian poet on the first line of the entry, but if I am not around and you see constant hostility and insults like these: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANezami_Ganjavi&diff=297295953&oldid=297293308]] feel free to take it to mediation and arbcomm. The external source or two discussing the issue also leaves it up to the reader to decide the matter of his father's background whom he was orphaned from an early age (and raised by his Kurdish uncle and his mother tongue being Kurdish and Kurds of course being parts of Iranic peoples). Obviously just a simple glance at google books, Encyclopedias and etc., and taking it to mediation and then arbcomm will get a much stronger viewpoint but in reality despite being insulted (just look at the guy I deleted his message), I have kept calm, since we are simply trying to state the truth on what is easily considered Iranian heritage. Inside Wikipedia at least, we need to make sure the atmosphere is always peaceful. Outside of Wiki, I criticize USSR historiography and politicizations without belittling any group. Simply, he is a Iranian poet based on culture/language/ethnic (Iranic ancestry motherside and almost likely fatherside and raised by Kurdish uncle), just like Shah Esmail I is a Azeri-Turkic poet (despite say Kurdish ancestory) In the long term or Shahriyar is an Azeri-Turkic poet (despite Arab fatherline and writing 90% of his work in Persian actually), any serious scholar studying (those that are serious and not looking for nation building stuff) Nezami will have to learn Persian (as the verses are simply lost in translation as his verses are completely tied to the language usage and then it is pretty clear he is part of the Irano-Islamic world based on simply the cultural contents of the work). Of course once the urban Turkish culture developed (say Ottoman empire, and Chagatay Turkish), it was very close and almost identical to urban Iranian culture in terms of religion, outlook, themes of poetry and thinking with the difference of language and also started its own rich culture. Unfortunately though, the Ottoman language was extinguished by force and Chagatay natually died off. Anyhow, not too diverge, if I were to follow simply [[WP:weight]], [[WP:RS]] and etc., and even same take it mediation and then arbitration, it will lead to a bad atmosphere where-as the opening sentence is constructive (opens up a friendly atmosphere). So even if it is by translation from the era of WWII, it is fine. A good entry on him is Encyclopedia of Islam one by Peter Chelkowsi who also has a book on Nezami's work. Encyclopedia of Islam sets basically the standard for scholarship on the area and serious scholars will follow it. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 04:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:In ''[[Khosrow and Shirin]]'' for example Nizami mentions a [[Barda, Azerbaijan|Barda]] ruler and a beauty from the same town. [[User:Brandmeister|Brand]]<i>[[User talk:Brandmeister|t]]</i> 22:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::Yes that is Mahin Banu (Persian for : "Greatest Lady"), mythic queen of what Nezami calls lands of Arran and Armenia in Khusraw and Shirin. Also Nushaba (Persian for Life Giving Water) was also the Queen of Barda'. Barda' is shown 11 times in a search on Nezami's work, Iran is shown 31 times, 'Ajam as a land is shown 15 times (Nezami calling the Eldiguzid ruler as king of land of 'Ajam(Persia)), Arran is shown 1 time, Azarbayegaan (1 time spelled as in [[Vis o Ramin]]), Azar Abaadegaan (2 times as in [[Shahnameh]] spelling), Armenia is 21 times spelled as ارمن(arman). Overall this shows his culture is regionally appreciated (whatever are view might be about anything else) and so I think the intro captures that. In terms of cities, Barda' is definitely among one of the highest. --[[User:Nepaheshgar|Nepaheshgar]] ([[User talk:Nepaheshgar|talk]]) 04:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
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I undid user who removed proper category (Kurdish people)[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nezami_Ganjavi&action=historysubmit&diff=351804354&oldid=351740670]. As it is well known Nezami's mother and maternal uncle who raised him were Kurdish (see this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nezami_Ganjavi&oldid=329678117]). Also the ethnicity of his father was probably Iranic, but since he was orphaned from him early as well as there is no agreement, it was left out. Even the birth city of his father is unknown. However, it could not be "Azerbaijani" as such an ethnonym/ethnic group was not formed back then. One could hypothetize "Oghuz Turk" (the Azerbaijani dialect being later formed from one of its branches and influenced by non-Turkic languages) however Nezami's ancestry goes back before the advent of Seljuqs and was of an urban non-nomadic background, and the culture (as well as what is in his work and the Sassanid stories he chose) makes such a scenario very unlikely: (see Nozhat al-Majales for the culture and language of that era) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nozhat_al-Majales] and frankly irrelevant. However as a region, "Azerbaijani/Arranian" is correct (that is reflected as he was born in Ganja) but not as a people and some sources mention people by region(context and history timeline makes it clear) (eg. is [[Bahmanyar]] who was a Zoroastrian Persian). The introduction though has the Azerbaijani language spelling although again that is bit of anachronism, but there is no reason to remove it as his legacy is appreciated. So removal of Kurdish people category is against Wikipedia [[WP:vandalism]] policy. See also here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nepaheshgar/On_Nizami_Ganjavi_Article]. --[[User:Pahlavannariman|Pahlavannariman]] ([[User talk:Pahlavannariman|talk]]) 17:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC) |
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Nizami was born and lived in Azerbaijan. He knew wat turkic 9not turkish, because the second is use in Turkey. He mentioned it in Leyla and Majnun. He told that he wanted to write in turkic, but could not. Because the rule of that time wante hoim to write it in persian. we have no pro that he wrote in turkic, but he used turkic proverbs in persian language. This proverbs is being used in Azerbaijan widely, even in XXI century. The fact that his mother is kurdish is arguable, because he said that his mother is a daughter of qurd (wolf- the ancestor for turks). And he had neer mntioned Armenia, he wrote Armen (Ərmən- the lan of heros). His heritage is appreciated and shared in Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan deserves it, because he is from the city of Azerbaijan. Besides, Azerbaijani is not a dialect, but a language. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/217.25.17.90|217.25.17.90]] ([[User talk:217.25.17.90|talk]]) 10:56, 28 March 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== On writing Nizami's name in various languages == |
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Please anwser and comment the following: |
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<blockquote>Nezāmi-ye Ganjavi (Persian: نظامی گنجوی; Kurdish: Nîzamî Gencewî, نیزامی گهنجهوی; Azerbaijani: Nizami Gəncəvi, نظامی گنجوی ; 1141 to 1209), or Nezāmi (Persian: نظامی), whose formal name was Niżām ad-Dīn Abū Muḥammad Ilyās ibn-Yūsuf ibn-Zakī ibn-Mu‘ayyad, is considered the greatest romantic epic poet in Persian literature...</blockquote> |
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Nizami's name here is written in English, because it is an English encyclopedia, in Perisan, because he was a Persian, at least created in Persian language in within Persian poetic and cultural tradition. But why do we show his name her in: 1) Kurdish. If there was separate written literary Kurdish language in the 12 th c. and Nizami composed in this ancient Kurdish and we have any original source of the 12th c. with his name written in Kurdish? 2) Azerbaijani Turkic. Did this language exist at all in the 12 c. or its written literary form and we have any original writing of Nizami in this language with indication of his own name in this language? 3) Why not to add the writing of his name in any language of the world that mentioned him at all? Thanks for your comments, --[[User:Zara-arush|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:blue; text-shadow:grey 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em; letter-spacing: 2px; padding: 1px 3px;"> <i>Zara-arush</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Zara-arush#top|talk]]) 12:02, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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::You are absolutely right. Only English and Persian are in my opinion necessary. I support and propose the removal of Turkic language version of this Persian poet. It is also time for us to change the introduction (lead) of this article and mention him as "Nezāmi-ye Ganjavi (Persian: نظامی گنجوی); 1141-1209 CE, or Nezāmi (Persian: نظامی), whose formal name was Niżām ad-Dīn Abū Muḥammad Ilyās ibn-Yūsuf ibn-Zakī ibn-Mu‘ayyad, is considered the greatest romantic epic Persian poet in Persian literature". [[User:Xashaiar|Xashaiar]] ([[User talk:Xashaiar|talk]]) 12:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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Guys here is my take on the issue and this has been discussed before. This is a compromise version. Sometimes compromise versions might overtake what is official wikipedia policy. It is designed to avoid mediation and arbcomm, which no one wants (as it wastes a lot of time and would simply make both Iranian and Caucasian users look bad infront of admins). |
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Per your question: |
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Persian is obvious as he wrote his name in Persian and the population of Ganja was Persian at the time. |
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Here is his name in Persian: |
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'''نظامی''' که نظم دری کار او اســت |
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دری نظم کردن سزاوار او اســــــت |
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translation: |
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Nezami whose skill is in composing Persian poetry |
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Composing Persian poetry is what he deserves |
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All of his works are in Persian and he is known as part of Persian literature. Persians can pickup his book and understand him (although his symbolic language and metaphors requires deep thought and often actually, Khaqani and other poets such as Sanai, Attar, Asad Gorgani, Ferdowsi help). So foremost, his heritage belongs to anyone that understands Persian. So attesting a name in the language that existed and the author wrote in the time is valid. Persian culture dominated the region as shown by [[Nozhat al-Majales]] and twenty four poets alone from Ganja at that time. The name of Ganja is also Persian. I also received an informative source just yesterday that explicitly mention that Ganja was densly populated with Iranians and some Christians right before the Mongol invasion ([http://rbedrosian.com/kg8.htm]). Unfortunately, this source is not known in Iran (There was Estakhri who in the 10th century already states Persian was widely spoken in Arran, and also Muqaddesi who alludes to Arranian Persian). There is also [[Muhammad ibn Ba'ith]] from Azerbaijan proper (not Arran) also from the 9th century when Persian poetry is mentioned. However this new source is explicitly about the composition of Ganja and right before the Mongol invasion. I am sure the Soviets knew about it, but hid it, and I am now looking into the original Grabar of this source (hopefully an expertt can help). |
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It is remarkable, that such a source was hidden until now, specially since it is from an author born '''in the same city''' and speicifcally gives the composition of the city right before the Mongol Invasion (Nizami lived 10 years before that invasion). Per Wikipedia rule, one can even mention such a source in this article but not intrepret it with their own research. If necessary, this will be done. Here is what that source states: "This city was densely populated with Iranians(original Armenian states Persian as far as I have researched so far) and a small number of Christians."[http://rbedrosian.com/kg8.htm] This is right before the Mongol invasion too. |
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On Kurdish, because his mother was Kurdish and his maternal uncle who raised him was Kurdish. As per your question, Azerbaijani Turkic was at proto-Oghuz level but later on it became Azerbaijani-Turkic with a heavy Persian and Persianized Arabic layer(all the Arabic influence and words are actually from Persian and many of them are actually not used in the original Arabic sense, but in the sense they are used in Persian. In actuality, the work of someone like Fizuli is more Persianized than even modern spoken Azeri. However, the language Azerbaijani-Turkic was formed later than the 12th century. Just like Dari-Persian was formed from Middle Persian but with Arabic influence as well. My main problem is not with putting any language, but the latin alphabets (for both Kurdish and Azeri) which makes it a bigger anachronism. |
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However, the people of the republic of Azerbaijan do associate with him (although in my humble opinion, if you do not know Persian, you cannot appreciate his expressions, as the main feature of Nizami is his use of the language in a creative fashion (most of the themes can be found in other works before and after him, but it is how he uses the languages that makes distinct) and the introduction has been pretty stable. There can be a problem, only if some users try to downplay the Persian cultural/ethnic heritage of the region at that time (falsely claim Seljuqs brought Persian in the area, when there already exists Qatran Tabrizi who served in Ganja in the Shaddadid court..or as we see in some websites where even Zoroastrianism is called a Turkic religion or in Soviet sources), or other very fringe theories (which [[Abbas Zaryab]](before him Vahid Dastgerdi) has responded to forcesully), and if such a thing is proposed, then the introduction will be changed. I am not interested in getting involved in AA fights in English Wikipedia, and I think other Wikipedia's should work out their own problems with their own users, administrators and guidelines. For example in Persian wikipedia, there is obviously not going to be any 20th century latin alphabet and I am not sure how it is in Azerbaijani-Turkic wikipedia(I am sure if Atropatene which is a good article nomination in that wikipedia is mentioned with a Turkic population, then other problems exist in that wikipedia.). Ultimately, for anyone that tries to deny the Persian culture/ethnic/language heritage of Nezami, they will lose as time passes by, since no sort of lie can exist forever. Sassanid Bahram Gur, and Khusraw o Shirin, Nushaba, Mahin Banu, Farhad, Barbad, Nakisa, Shabdiz are originally from Iranian/Persian culture and are not going to become transformed into Turks. |
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Having said all of that,it is not worth the waste of time in order to remove a different spelling. If other more major issues comeup, then yes, the anachronistic name should be removed when dealing with the major issues. Persian comes first (as it should) anyway. There is no problem in having a stable introduction and there are other articles that can use our efforts. Thank you.--[[User:Khodabandeh14|Khodabandeh14]] ([[User talk:Khodabandeh14|talk]]) 14:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC) |
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:Hi, again, I am not quite a stranger here, at the discussion page devoted to Nizami. The above user wrote: "if you do not know Persian, you cannot appreciate his expressions, as the main feature of Nizami is his use of the language in a creative fashion", and I agree with him or her. Only the lack of knowledge and cultural tradition may explain why the article about Nizami in Russian, demostrating his poetry and rich language and images, should rewrite almost anew not one of the Azeri Turks, who claim him their greatest national poet and cultural treasure. They exclaimed so many times that someone wanted to stole their national gandj that I got extremely interested both in Persian poetry and Nizami. But when I saw a poor writen article with miserable info, many spelling, grammatical and stylistic mistakes, and references to unreliable sources, I was so much surpirsed that I put aside all my plans, relating other articles, and started to study the great world of Persian poetry. Of course, I will not become a scholar, but I enjoy reading the verses and the criticism about Persian poetry. I am very thankful to those users, who created the articles in English for it helps me to get info and realize, what falsifications I escaped from studying in case I were a student in present-day Azerbaijani Republic. And it is the main merit of Wikipedia - it helps to spread the true and reliable information not only free, but boundaryless. Let's enjoy it, --[[User:Zara-arush|<span style="font-weight:bold; color:blue; text-shadow:grey 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em; letter-spacing: 2px; padding: 1px 3px;"> <i>Zara-arush</i></span>]] ([[User talk:Zara-arush#top|talk]]) 11:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC) |
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Well it is not really the fault of Azeris and I think Armenian and Azeris should get alone in Russian Wikipedia. That problem should not be exported into English Wikipedia which has had its own problems. The Soviet union turned people like Babak Khorramdin, Medes, Zoroaster, Atropatene, Mahasti, Qatran, Nasir al-Din Tusi (from Tus), Masud ibn Namdar (a Kurd), Bahmanyar (a Zoroastrian Persian) and etc. into "Azeris" when such an ethnonym was never used until the 19th/20th century. These peoples were Iranians and Caucasus from Azerbaijan not Turks (except for Tusi who was actually from Khorasan). As for Nezami, Nezami's imagery and metaphors are extremly rich. In other words as Britannica(I think the short article on him in Britannica is written by Professor Peter Chelkowski) states: "'''though his love of language for its own sake''' and of philosophical and scientific learning makes his work difficult for the average reader.". So translating his work will basically get rid off a lot of the meanings. There are parts that can be translated okay, but a good portion is closely tied to the language itself. There is no escape from that fact, so if a person does not know Persian, then they cannot appreciate Nezami in the real sense. So after Persian was forcefully removed by the Russians and also local pan-Turk nationalists, the Azeris in the Caucasus in a sense lost a good portion of their common heritage with other Iranians. Now there is actually a extreme pan-Turk movement (probably supported by the same people that claim Nezami was a Turk but cannot understand Persian) that actually wants to remove Persian from official language curriculum in Iranian Azerbaijan. Actually they also burn copies of the Shahnameh in one gathering which Nezami took most of his genre from (and appreciate very much). So such extremists cannot absolutely have any connection with Nezami, and it is all just fanciful nationalist. At the first archive, we had people that claimed thatNezami actually wrote in Azeri. I do not think even the fact that all of his works are in Persian is known by everyone there. There is websites that falsely attribute to him Turkish work. Lots of these sort of mentality is the fault of Soviets/pan-Turkist nationalists. For example up to the 20th century, no one in Iran or Azerbaijan would have known who was Atropates and Babak Khorramdin was even seen as a heretic. Although I do believe the majority of today's Azeris were at one time Iranian speakers, however they have basically converted into Turks (specially in the Caucasus). Identity is a fluid concept and the main factor is how the people see themselves. So if we these people see themselves as Turks today, then they are not really Iranians in the ethnic sense or primary inheritors of Persian culture of the area. Remember at the time, there was no nation-state concepts. Also the Caucasian Albanian theory I do not buy since there is not a Caucasian Albanian substrate in Azerbaijani Turkish where as there is an Urartuian substrate in Armenian. On the other hand, Azerbaijani Turkish does have an Iranian linguistic substrate. |
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So based on my own research, I believe the majority of these people were actually Iranian speakers at one time (and this is the opinion of some Western researchers). This is true about Turkey as well where the majority of its population is descendants of pre-Turkish Anatolians. It is shame that Nezami article had to have 6 archives to describe his father's background. Anyway I have done some research on this issue and I can gaurantee now that 100% it was not Turkic. I hope (or me) will publish these later or give someone else to publish it in a respectable place (alongside mistakes perpuated from normal scholars like Berengian attributing terms to Safa, Foruzanfar, Shafaq which they did not use, or outright falsehood like the recent claim of a Turkish Divan or Brenda Shaffer claiming Khusraw was the ancestor of Turks in the Caucasus, or falsfication (responded to by [[Abbas Zaryab]] and already intrepreted by Vahid Dastgerdi) that Nezami wanted to write Turkish (whose literally tradition did not exist) for the Shirvanshah (who did not even know Turkish).....). Then there is the issue of not understanding basic Persian symbolic poetry[http://www.iranica.com/articles/hindu]. Some of these issues have been eluciated here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nepaheshgar/On_Nizami_Ganjavi_Article]. Anyhow, there is a verse that completely rules out any Turkic ancestry but this was not picked up in detail scholars (since they usually just are happy to read his work and do not care about these nationalistic quibbles). So in a sense Wikipedia helped by helping me look at this issue in more details. |
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The verses are: |
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" |
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چون ترکان گشته سوی کوچ محتاج |
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بترکی داده رختم را به تاراج |
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اگر شد ترکم از خرگه نهانی |
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خدایا ترکزادم را تو دانی |
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The verse is about Nezami and his first wife which was Kypchak. |
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First Nezami distinguishes her as a Turk (there is no reason to do so if he was a Turk), but more importantly the verses translate to: |
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Like the Turk, she needed migration |
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and in the manner of Turks she plundered my belongings (life) |
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If my Turk has dissapeared from the tent, (note here that Turks at the time were associated with nomadic lifestyle not urban) |
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I entrust my ''Turkzad'' (son born of a Turkish wife) to your mercy" |
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The term "Turkzad" in Shahnameh and the literature context at the time, meant a son whose father is Iranian but whose mother is a Turk. This has been used three times in the Shahnameh for exactly the people that had such an ancestry (half Turanian (which was considered Turk then although Turanians do not have any linguistic connections to Turks and it was simply due to geography they got intermixed) and half Iranian). What is important for understanding the meaning of the term, is to cross-reference with the literature that the poet was familiar and used. The best to cross-reference with is Sanai, Khaqani, Ferdowsi, Asadi Tusi, Gorgani, etc. |
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Be that it may, what is important is that one ultimately cannot appreciate Nezami without knowledge of Persian language, so in a sense, the sort of nationalistic nation bulding will only produce an artificial and shallow appreciation of his poetry. The Kirakos Ganjakets'i's source would not have been found for me, had it not been for Wikipedia. It is the '''only''' source I am currently aware of that describes Ganja's population right before the Mongol invasion. Basically it says it was densly populated with Persians and some Christians. The author himself is also from Ganja which makes it double valid, since he was born in the city and lived in the city (rather than travelled there). Then there is the study of Nozhat al-Majales. Quatrains are not court poetry, but they are meant for average people. The quatrains are about the most spiritual to the most mundane subjects. Quatrains in a sense are the opposite extreme to epic poetry. They are short and are meant to be memorized quickly. They are the art of both scholars and ordinary people. Overall, you put all these together, with the themes that Nezami chose (all from the Shahnameh rather than say Turkic folklore like dede qorqud or etc.), and it is apparent that his culture was Persian, and his ancestry was Iranian. Farhad, Khusraw, Shirin, Bahram Gur, Eskandar (the Persianized Eskandar of the Shahnameh) o Dara, Barbad, Nakisa and etc. are from totally different world than authentic Turkic folklore (say Dede Qorqud or the Manas). But since this is wikipedia, the issue will be a problem. Probably a good approach is the one provided by Prof. Ruymbeke here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nezami/ChristianRuymbeke]. There is no big deal if Azerbaijan wants to also claim him as part of their heritage, the problems occurs in my opinion if they deny his Persian culture(encompassing both themes of history, prevalent culture of the time, language, and tradition) and heritage. Or falsely even attribute Turkish works too him (where as there is not a single piece of Turkish poetry from the Caucasus in the time of Nezami and yet easily one can point to 115 poets from Nozhat al-Majales with Persian works). It might take a 100 years to filter out the nonsense parts that the USSR (and scholars living there) wrote about Nezami, but it will happen since lies cannot be pertuated forever. |
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And even if we say his father was a Martian, the Martian was Persianized and the Persian culture/heritage is what counts, and what counts in the end, is that without knowledge of Persian, the only understanding one might obtain on Nezami is in an artificial sense. Because what is NezamI? Essentially and directly, he describes himself as the verses he composed. So without understanding the language of those verses, you basically are not connect to Nezami. That is , in a translation, you have basically filtered his work through a mind of a translater, and in a sense, you are starting limited. So anyone that does not know Persian, cannot even really study him, let alone talk authoritatevily about him. --[[User:Khodabandeh14|Khodabandeh14]] ([[User talk:Khodabandeh14|talk]]) 12:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC) |
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== stable introduction == |
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Anyhow, these discussions can go forever, it is just important to keep things stable and hopefully time will eventually get rid off falsehood. --[[User:Khodabandeh14|Khodabandeh14]] ([[User talk:Khodabandeh14|talk]]) 12:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC) |
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OK.. I have to agree with you for now. Thanks for clarifications. [[User:Xashaiar|Xashaiar]] ([[User talk:Xashaiar|talk]]) 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC) |
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== Khamsa or Khamse? == |
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Please make consistent. |
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[[User:Ed8r|Ed8r]] ([[User talk:Ed8r|talk]]) 23:36, 30 November 2010 (UTC) |
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NIZAMI GENCEVI <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Kamran 552|Kamran 552]] ([[User talk:Kamran 552|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Kamran 552|contribs]]) 18:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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