Talk:Plymouth (disambiguation): Difference between revisions

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-{{move|Plymouth}}
-== Opening comments ==
-With only two places outside of the United States named Plymouth (besides the original that should be linked at the beginning) versus the dozens of U.S. places, it makes sense to group and order them "in the U.S." and "outside the U.S.".  Sections with only a single listing look odd and illogical. -[[User:Acjelen|Acjelen]] 14:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-Why is Plymouth, Mass. called [[Plymouth (town), Massachusetts]]?
-:I'm not sure.  It is a town.  In WP, paranthetical qualifiers are usually used when more than one subject can have the same title, but the article [[Plymouth, Massachusetts]] is a redirect to this article. -[[User:Acjelen|Acjelen]] 14:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
-::It was a differentiation between the Census-Designated Place within the large town of Plymouth (namely downtown and historic Plymouth) as compared to the very large town of Plymouth, Massachusetts itself (comprising several CDPs). [[User:Raime|Raime]] 04:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
-== Plymouth,  Massachusetts ==
-Shouldn't this town, one of the first in the modern-day United States, the site of many American landmarks, and the location of several historic events, be listed prominetly at the top of the page along with Plymouth, Devon? [[User:Raime|Raime]] 04:24, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
-:Not necessarily. The historical significance of the place is covered in several related articles and are not necessarily served by forwarding a link to the article about the current town. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 16:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
-::I disagree. The current town remains extremely important, and nearly all related articles are covered in the town's article. It is by far more prominent than any other Plymouth listed under 'towns in the United States' named Plymouth. The importantce did lie in the town of Plymouth, not Plymouth colony in general, and the importance remains today. It should be listed prominently at the top of the page. [[User:Raime|Raime]] 01:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
-==Requested move==
-* [[Plymouth (disambiguation)]] → [[Plymouth]]
-* [[Plymouth]] → [[Plymouth, Devon]]
-There is no [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for '''Plymouth'''.  Given the widely known [[Plymouth (automobile)|automobile mark]], certainly the [[Plymouth, Devon|small city in England]] (less than 250,000 in population) currently at [[Plymouth]] is not it.
-The [[Wikipedia:Nc(city)#England|guidelines for naming English cities]] clearly dictate that "disambiguated place names should go under [[placename, [[ceremonial county]]]], so in this case the English city needs to be moved to [[Plymouth, Devon]] to make room for the dab page at [[Plymouth]].  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 23:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
-Apparently I need to point out that Plymouth sometimes sold ''half a million'' cars in just one year, twice as many as the current entire population of the small city in England.   The notion that this obscure city in England is somehow more notable than the venerable automobile brand, much less the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for this name, is astounding.  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 02:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-===Survey===
-:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>*'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>*'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since [[Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion|polling is not a substitute for discussion]], please explain your reasons, taking into account [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions|Wikipedia's naming conventions]].''
-*'''Oppose'''. The nominator's rationale seems rather vague and subjective. In the absense of any real evidence that the English city is ''not'' the primary topic, I see no compelling reason to make this move. [[User:PC78|PC78]] ([[User talk:PC78|talk]]) 00:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Strong support'''.  Clearly the car or the American city should be the primary topic, if there was one.  Add to that the number of other entries on the dab page and you have about the clearest case possible for not having a primary topic.  This problem exists because of the problem with settlement naming conventions.  The dab page should be at the main name space.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 01:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-**"Clearly"? On what basis? And which American city? [[User:PC78|PC78]] ([[User talk:PC78|talk]]) 01:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-***[[Plymouth, Massachusetts]], famous because of the Pilgrims and the First Thanksgiving. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 03:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-****A city with a population of around 60,000, as opposed to a major city in a major country with a population of 250,000, from which the American city derives its name? As for the cars, I don't believe they are particuarly well known outside the US. [[User:PC78|PC78]] ([[User talk:PC78|talk]]) 11:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*****Just as Plymouth, Devon is not particularly well known outside the UK. We're not arguing that the car brand or the town in Massachusetts is the primary topic, just that the city in the UK ''isn't''. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 21:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Support:''' Which American community?  Plymouth, Massachusetts, of course.  As far as evidence, Googling "Plymouth" + "Massachusetts" returns 469,000 hits, "Plymouth" + "Devon" returns 389,000 ... and "Plymouth" + "automobile" over three million.  I'd say a disambiguation page is the ''least'' that should be done. [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 03:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Support''' per nom; there is no [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] here for "Plymouth", as is the case with [[Lancaster]]. Instead, we have three prominent uses and many other less common meanings, so a dab page makes the most sense; then, all readers can easily be directed to the article they are searching for. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 03:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose''' The notion that this obscure automobile brand from America is somehow more notable than the city in England is astounding.  Seriously, without resorting to the hyperbole of the request rationale, it is not clear why a city with such historical significance is not primary topic here.  The arguments from the failed [[Talk:Plymouth#requested_move]] are compelling too.  I will leave a note at that talk page to notify readers of this relevant debate. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 07:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose'''. It seems that all other "Plymouth"s are named after the one in Devon; therefore, that is primary usage. [[Special:Contributions/128.232.1.193|128.232.1.193]] ([[User talk:128.232.1.193|talk]]) 09:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-**Where is that outlined at [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]? Being the original placename does not designate primary usage, as evidenced by [[Boston]]. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 21:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*[[Plymouth, Devon]] is not obscure. It is a major and historic base of the [[British Navy]], and a main holiday center. I have had several holidays near there. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 10:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-* '''Support''' the name is clearly ambiguous and should be a disambiguation page. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose'''. Population is clearly the best and fairest method of deciding which settlement is more important, so the British city wins that. I am also of the opinion that a well-known city is more important than a dissolved car manufacturer. To the Americans here: Calling Plymouth an obscure town just says to me that you shouldn't be trying to judge how well-known a particular place in the UK is. For the record, I also think the car manufacturer is clearly more important than any of the American towns. [[User:MTC|MTC]] ([[User talk:MTC|talk]]) 13:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-**For better or worse, to most of the 300 million Americans, just about any city in England that is not [[London]] ''is'' obscure.  That does not mean the English cities should not be at <nowiki>[[Cityname]]</nowiki>, but they are still subject to [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] considerations, which means that in order to be at <nowiki>[[Cityname]]</nowiki> they must be "much more used than any other (significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings)" use of the name.  There is no way that the small city in England meets this criteria. For example, [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=plymouth&btnG=Search+News search for "Plymouth" at new.google.com] and see how many pages deep you have to go before you find a single reference to the city in England.   --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 17:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::* Oh dear, another simple fundamental error in search engine use for this sort of quesion.  Google News tailors results to the location of your IP - the same test on a computer on the other side of the Atlantic will give the reverse result.  Your personal views on American awareness of European geography are personal views, nothing stronger. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 17:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::* Which is why using the UK Google is an illustrative choice.  On the UK Google: "Plymouth" + "Massachusetts" = 528,000 hits.  "Plymouth" + "Devon" = 456,000.  "Plymouth" + "automobile" = 3.49 million. [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 18:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::::* Never mind some of the obvious deficiencies of this test, I do not replicate those results in the slightest.  Selection based on IP location is still at work. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 18:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose''' - This is a global Wikipedia, not an American one. Article titles shouldn't be decided on what just Americans think of as more notable, it's extremely ethnocentric and violates [[WP:CSB]]. This is a major UK city. I have never heard of the Plymouth automobile company and while I have heard of Plymouth, Massachusetts, it is only notable as part of American history, not a global or any other country's history. --[[User:Joowwww|Joowwww]] ([[User talk:Joowwww|talk]]) 15:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:*'''Comment:''' Errr ... "ethnocentric?"  That's ... quite an argument.  I'd be interested in hearing the rationale behind that.  Beyond that, folks, let's practice some [[WP:AGF|good faith here]].  It is not a crime to assert, and present facts to assert, that the UK Plymouth is not so overwhelmingly more famous than Plymouth, MA, or the automobile brand that it should possess the name free and clear of disambiguation.  Nor are such things automatically ruled by the older or more populous town; I doubt that many of the UK partisans would relish a claim that Guangzhou, Jakarta, Karachi or Lagos were more notable cities than London, but they pip it on both counts. [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 16:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::* Which UK partisans are these, RGT?  The descent into arguments on age and population was predictable given the specious arguments of the move rationale itself, which compares car production to populations as if this discussion were to be won like [[Top Trumps]], finding the highest magnitude number we can associate a topic with. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 16:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::*Specious arguments?  Are you familiar at all with Wikipedia naming conventions?  Have you read [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]?  These numbers are relevant to the issue of how ''well known'' the various uses of "Plymouth" are, and how relatively obscure the city in England is among them.  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 17:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::::*I am extremely familiar with them; usage and notability are not simple functions of car-production and population, and to claim otherwise is specious and unsupported by the conventions. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 17:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::* Which UK partisans are these?  You have noticed, for one, that every single Oppose user who has made a note of his or her home location lives in England, yes? [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 17:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::::As irrelevant as the fact all supporting voters come from the US, and as irrelevant as my originating country on my arguments and ability to interpret policy. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 18:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::::Despite your ability to interpret policy, none of your arguments (or anyone else's) even attempt (much less succeed) to show how [[Plymouth, Devon]] meets the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] criteria for being the primary topic (not to be confused with merely "most important") topic for [[Plymouth]].  See [[Talk:Plymouth_(disambiguation)#UK_vs._worldwide_perspective|below]]. --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 19:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::::::* I refer to the only rigorous numerical evidence provided so far below. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 23:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*<s>The opposition to this proposal seems to be largely rooted in personal observation, ie. "I have never heard of the automobile company".  Objective lines of reasoning, such as pageviews or Google tests, would seem to reveal there is no single primary topic here.  It has been pointed out that Wikipedia is a ''worldwide'' project and not American, and we should be working to remove the American bias.  I agree.  Wikipedia is also not British, and thus we should not be picking and choosing based on popular usage in Britain.  It is fairly obvious that a disambiguation page is the least biased alternative. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)</s>
-* '''Oppose''' - The page on disabiguation gives three methods of determining the primary topic (Google, hit count and incomming links. Google is completely useless. Out of 66 million pages that include Plymouth, 3 million also include "UK" while 12 million include US. That leaves 40+ million pages unaccounted for. The fact that pages such as [http://visitbristol.co.uk/usa/top-15-places-to-visit/plymouth this] one about the British Plymouth mention the USA (and not the UK) just show how pointless going down this path can be.
-*Plymouth got 34k hits last month, over double the number of Plymouth, MA (15k) and three times the number of hits for the car company (10k). Other pages such as [[Plymouth, California]] (321), [[Plymouth, Connecticut]] (287) and [[Plymouth, Iowa]] (138) have neglegable impact. This majority visitors went to the British Plymouth page. This is tempered slightly by the fact that some visitors for the other pages would have gone via the Plymouth page. For example, 2,000 go to this page but even taking them off Plymouth's total would leave it with over 50% of the hits.
-*Plymouth has around 2,500 incoming links while its Massachusetts counterpart get just over 500 and the car company gets below 250. Again other pages have negligible incoming links meaning that Plymouth probably accounts for over 2/3 of the total incoming links. Two out of the three measures suggest that Plymouth is in the right place, while the other is inconclusive. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.19.66|87.114.19.66]] ([[User talk:87.114.19.66|talk]]) 21:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:*The google results are neither useless nor inconclusive.  They show that there is no primary topic.  It's amazing that Plymouth, MA got half the hits of this page considering most would probably get there from [[Plymouth]].  If people searching for the car company all came here first, that 34k becomes 24k.  Then all the people searching for the MA city came through here, you're down to 24k - 15k = 9k hits for this page. Compare ''that'' to the 15k and 10k for the MA city and car maker.  But I'll give you the incoming links point, though I need to confirm it.  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 22:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::*The hit count demonstrates that there ''is not'' a primary topic. 30,000 thousand readers are looking for the city in Devon, but at the same time more than 25,000 are not. Yes, between the three major meanings of "Plymouth", Plymouth, Devon is the most searched for and most linked, but that doesn't automatically mean it is the primary topic; per [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]], a primary topic is one that is "much more used than any other (significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings)", and a ratio of reader statitics of 30 to 15 to 10 shows that Plymouth, Devon does not fit this definition. Keep in mind that all 34,000 hits for this page are not intended for Plymouth, Devon; the dab page gets 2,500 hits per month, and readers looking for [[Plymouth, Massachusetts]] can get to that article without having to go through the dab page because of the hatnote, meaning that the actual number of readers for the Plymouth, Devon article is probably closer to 28,000 to 30,000 per month. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 22:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::*I was inclined to agree with you, Serge, until I decided to take a peek at the pageviews myself. My first way of looking at it was the same way as you; 15k were looking for the US city, 10k were looking for the car manufacturer, and the rest must have ''meant'' the UK city. However, I looked at a few other well-known but ambiguous terms (Mercury, Phoenix, Orange) and discovered something I did not expect : in each case, more people went ''directly'' to the disambiguated articles ([[Mercury (planet)]], [[Phoenix, Arizona]] or [[Orange (fruit)]], for example) rather than visited the dab page. The three dab pages averaged about 25% the traffic as their targets, meaning (if this pattern holds), 25% of the traffic to any disambiguated page is inbound from the disambiguation page itself. Extrapolate the data to this example and one can estimate that of the 15k who went to the US city, 3750 came from [[Plymouth]]; of the 10k who went to the auto article, 2500 came from the main page. Take those out, and the people left at [[Plymouth]] still outnumber the rest by a margin of 27.5k to 15k to 10k, still over 50%. I'd like to see the stats on inbound links confirmed, but the IP may have a point here. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 22:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::*(edit confilict)The problem with google hits, especially relating to place names, is choosing the terms. When refering to Plymouth you could use UK, United Kingdom, England, Devon, or none of the above. Just to give you an idea of the absurdity of using google, "Liverpool UK" only manages 2 million hits while "Liverpool USA" comes up with almost 18 million. Similarly, "Bejjing china" manages 23 million hits while "Bejjing USA" comes up with 44 mil. Plymouth's links with the U.S. is only going to exasibate this problem.
-::*Your ideas about hit counts completly ignore the fact that people also reach the pages via links, their watchlist or putting the correct page name into the search box. The disambiguation page only receives 2,000 hits that means that less than one fifth of the readers of the motor company (along with all the other disambiguated plymouths) page have gone via the Plymouth page. If a similar percentage have gone to Plymouth, MA via Plymouth it would mean only 3,000 have gone that route. That leaves 29,000 that wanted the Plymouth page. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.19.66|87.114.19.66]] ([[User talk:87.114.19.66|talk]]) 23:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Modified Support''' — Move the auto brand to ''Plymouth (automobile)'' and make ''Plymouth'' a dab page. There are far too many places named Plymouth for us to give primacy to any one of them over the others...and then there's the auto brand, into the bargain. —[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]] ([[User talk:Scheinwerfermann|talk]]) 23:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:*The ''number'' of places is irrelevant - you know that there's at least fifteen places in the US called Paris, right?  Significance of topics is what matters, not the number of topics. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 23:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*After reconsidering the statistics here, I must concede that Plymouth (the UK city) appears to have a non-negligible primacy in terms of use.  As the numbers make it appear that over 50% of the people are looking for the city, I have no choice but to modify my opinion and '''oppose''' this proposal. [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 23:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*'''Oppose''': the proposal mentions that Plymouth is a relatively small town, but this fails to acknowledge its significant maritime history and importance in the south-west region which is a politically and socially distinctive part of England. &ndash; [[User:kierant|<font color="#006600">Kieran T</font>]] <sup>''(''[[User talk:kierant|''<font color="#006600">talk</font>'']]'')''</sup> 23:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-===Discussion===
-:''Any additional comments:''
-*How can one say that Plymouth is an obscure automobile brand?  Clearly that argument is baseless. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 08:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-** How can one say that Plymouth is an obscure city?  Clearly that argument is baseless, compared to a car brand rarely seen outside North America. Furthermore, I thought following my comment highlighting the absurdity of the last sentence of the move rationale with "seriously" would be a strong enough indicator of its irony, but obviously not.  Hope that clarifies. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 09:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-***It is quite easy to see the British city as obscure.  There is the car and the most famous early American city.  They are the choices for primary usage.  This is a strong case based on facts.  The assumption that the entire world has a British bias is wrong.  Ignoring the American usages is not good for the encyclopedia.  If you go into the discussion with the opinion that Plymouth is the British city and decide to either ignore the other uses around the word, you can not determine if there is a primary use for the word.  I would like to see a case made for why the British city is the primary use.  That has not been done and the case is being made as to why others could be the primary use.  The current main article fails [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] and that means we need to change.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 22:52, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-*As to the current target being the most historically significant, clearly the one in Massachusetts is very significant as the site of the pilgrims arrival, the first [[Thanksgiving]] and the [[oldest continually inhabited English settlement]] in the new world. These are strong cases for primary usage, but a disambiguation page at the main name space is simply the better choice here. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 08:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-****"''It is quite easy to see the British city as obscure''" - baseless assertions repeated don't become true. "''The assumption that the entire world has a British bias is wrong.''" - the assumption would be unjustified but might be true; this is a point you miss.  Phrasing it in these terms is pointless anyway - the assumption hasn't been made, and phrasing it in terms of national bias is unhelpful and irrelevant despite repeated attempts to do so above.  "''I would like to see a case made for why the British city is the primary use''" - the IP has provided some useful numerical results with more rigorous foundations than the specious arguments given in the move rationale. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 23:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::All your examples are relevant to American history and American primary usage, not global history or global primary usage. Your argument isn't exactly representing a global viewpoint, IMO. --[[User:Joowwww|Joowwww]] ([[User talk:Joowwww|talk]]) 15:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::The argument isn't supposed to represent a global viewpoint; the point is that there ''is no'' single, worldwide primary usage of "Plymouth." Yes, the examples are relevant only to American history, but this is because American readers are just as likely to search for "Plymouth" as British readers. Keeping the UK city at "Plymouth" shows a UK bias, just as redirecting "Plymouth" to Plymouth, Massachustts would show a US bias, but making "Plymouth" a dab pahe shows no bias. Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 21:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::Actually my examples do show an appreciation for the world wide view.  Apparently you agree that there are at least two candidates for an American primary use.  So in some respects this could then be a discussion over using the British or American primary use.  But I support the suggestion that it should be neither based on [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]] and go directly to the disambiguation page.  How can you say that approach does not represent a consideration of global history or global primary usage?  I guess I should then make the case that those opposing a move are taking the 'British history and British primary usage, not global history or global primary usage' point of view.  Or in other words, the [[WP:ILIKEIT|I like it]] argument.  [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 22:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-====UK vs. worldwide perspective====
-Well, [[WP:AGF|assuming good faith]], I have to believe that the incredulity expressed here in opposition to this proposal is genuine.  Perhaps in the UK the relative obscurity of the city in England is really unfathomable.  But by what objective standard can it be shown that the city in England is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for "Plymouth" ''worldwide''?  As I noted in a comment above, it's very hard to find a single reference to the English small city if you [http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=plymouth&btnG=Search+News search for Plymouth at news.google.com].  However, I have to admit, that if you do a similar search at [http://search.bbc.co.uk/search?go=homepage&scope=all&tab=all&q=Plymouth&Search=Search search.bbc.co.uk] ''all'' of the hits on the first page are about the city in England. Clearly, if this was a UK-only Wikipedia, then the city would be the primary topic.  So that explains the strong opposition to this proposal from the Brits here.  But Wikipedia is not for the UK only.  This is a worldwide resource and from any other perspective, particularly from the American one in which the automobile brand and historical Pilgrim settlement are much better known, this city does not come anywhere close to being the primary topic per the official [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] guidelines.  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 17:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:''by what objective standard can it be shown that the city in England is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for "Plymouth" ''worldwide''?''
-:As far as towns/cities go, population is the fairest and most obvious way of showing that the city of 250,000 is more important than a town of 50,000. As for the city vs. the car manufacturer, well, the fact that the car manufacturer doesn't exist anymore should mean something. That said, I am not entirely convinced that the city is more important than the car manufacturer, and if the car manufacturer was still operating then I would probably say that was the primary topic. [[User:MTC|MTC]] ([[User talk:MTC|talk]]) 18:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:::Population is irrelevant to determining primary topic. By that logic, [[Worcester, Massachusetts]] would be at "Worcester" instead of [[Worcester, Worcestershire]]. All that matters here is what a reader expects to find when typing in "Plymouth"; for US readers, the target article will most likely be the Massachusetts town or the car brand, for UK users, the target will be the city in Devon, and for English-speakers outside of both countries it would probably be the car brand. There is clearly no primary topic here. There is no evidence to suggest that English speakers from all over the world, and not just the UK, are looking for Plymouth, Devon when typing in "Plymouth". Cheers, [[User:Raime|<font color="blue" ><b>Rai</b></font>]]•[[User talk:Raime|<font color="green" ><b><i>me</i></b></font>]] 21:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::See my note on the invalid use of Google News above.  Who says everyone opposing is British?  It's equally irrelevant to point out everyone supporting appears to reside in America, and then go on to say "Clearly, if this were a US-only Wikipedia, then the city in MA would be the primary topic.  So that explains the strong support for this proposal from the Americans here.  But Wikipedia is not for the US only".  The characterisation of the current situation as a UK-only view is unsubstantiated. [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 18:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::MTC, Showing that topic A is more important than topic B does not prove that topic A is the ''primary'' topic.  That is, there may very well be ''no'' primary topic for a given name.  To be a primary topic the hurdle that must be jumped is not mere "more important than the other uses", but "'''much more''' used than any other ('''significantly more''' commonly searched for and read than other meanings)" (from [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC]]). Note that no one is arguing that the MA city or even the auto brand is the primary topic - we're saying there is ''no'' primary topic for this name, and that's why there should be a dab page at [[Plymouth]].
-:: So I ask again, by what objective standard can it be shown that the city in England is the [[WP:PRIMARYTOPIC|primary topic]] for "Plymouth" ''worldwide''?  --[[User:Born2cycle|Serge]] ([[User talk:Born2cycle|talk]]) 18:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::: Quite.  A claim of American-centric bias would be valid if (say) there was an American-based push to ''replace'' the Devonshire city with the Massachusetts town as the article to which [[Plymouth]] linked.  No one has made any such proposal.  [[User:RGTraynor|'''<span style="background:Blue;color:Cyan"> &nbsp;RGTraynor&nbsp;</span>''']] 18:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-== A slightly modified proposal ==
-Let's move the auto brand to '''Plymouth (automobile)''', in the pattern of [[DeSoto (automobile)]]. Then let's go ahead and make [[Plymouth]] into a dab page. There are far too many places named Plymouth for us to reasonably and satisfactorily decide which one gets primacy by dint of article name, and the heated discussion above clearly demonstrates we'll never get consensus if we carry on pushing in that direction.
-Also, let's all have a [[WP:TEA|nice cup of tea and a sit down]]; there is far more fur flying here than the question merits. —[[User:Scheinwerfermann|Scheinwerfermann]] ([[User talk:Scheinwerfermann|talk]]) 23:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-:The auto brand is already at [[Plymouth (automobile)]]; therefore I'm not sure what the modification here is over the existing proposal? [[User:Shereth|<b><font color="#0000FF">Sher</font></b>]]<b><font color="#6060BF">[[User_talk:Shereth|eth]]</font></b> 23:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
-::It's inappropriate to break off to a new discussion at this point, and progress is being made.  Furthermore - the car make is already at the location you request - [[Plymouth (automobile)]].  Just let this go to term and see what happens.  [[User:Knepflerle|Knepflerle]] ([[User talk:Knepflerle|talk]]) 23:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:14, 25 October 2008