Talk:Boxer (dog breed)/Archive 1

Archived on 23 September 2006

Reputable Breeders In Louisiana

I was wandering where some good breeders were in Louisianan. I've owned boxer in the past and would like to have another one for pet not for show but, are looking for pure breed with good qualities.

Breed History

Err, I don't know much about breeding history or the like, but I noticed that according to the history section the breed is barely older than the 20th Century, but under temperament, the article talks about the reputation of the Boxer in "olden times." I'm changing it for two reasons. First, it seems that the breed is quite new, and second, the language under temperament is not especially encyclopedic, and even if the term "boxer" was used to describe relatives of the modern Boxer prior to the formalization of the breed, that needs to be noted somewhere or it's gonna make the article look inconsistent. If I'm wrong and the boxer's reputation does substantially precede its formal establishment as a breed, consider adding that language back in with an explanation, as that would be of some use to a reader curious about the history of the breed. Zabieru 05:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I have two of them. My understanding is that the breed didn't exist in any form before maybe the 1870's (???) at the earliest, so "olden times" would hardly apply. Fan1967 23:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Spam in Directories and Informational Pages

This article section is being filled with spam from many sources:

• www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html
• www.cinemaboxers.com
• groups.msn.com/showboxers
• www.dogsindepth.com/working_dog_breeds/boxer.html
• www.canismajor.com/dog/boxer.html
• www.boxertalk.org/

And www.dog-toy.co.uk/dog-information/boxer-dog.shtml, which was removed.

I think all those links to be spam because they weren´t used as sources for the article (those known sources are already cited in the references section). I think that listing the Boxers clubs around the world affiliated to the FCI and official confederations to be fine, but linking to commercial sites with not much in depth information to be only SPAM. I think it would be best to remove this section entirely because it would be too subjective to tell which entry is or not SPAM. Any opinions? Loudenvier 03:27, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Official FCI Boxers Clubs are not spam

We could try to get a consensus on this matter before start deleting all the boxers clubs scanctioned by the FCI or AKC. Loudenvier 14:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Wite Boxer

I think it´s time to have a section for white boxers. There seems to be so much nonsense about them around that only wikipedia could clarify :-). Is someone up to the task of collection information about them from reputable sources? I´m tired of hearing about health problems only to justify a commercial procedure to eliminate the costs attached to breed a white puppy which would only be sold as a pet-level dog Loudenvier 14:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and as somebody who has done lots of research on this subject since getting our first (fawn) boxer and then our deaf white boxer I can offer what I have by way of scientific evidence. Which, I have to add, is non-existant on the health problems issue. I am busy setting up a website and collecting information for that too, so once I'm done I'd be happy to share. Vevd 06:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

The information on the boxer's temperament seems a bit biased and could be cleaned up by someone who knows a lot about boxers, just to keep its language neutral. magicOgre 16:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

It´s not POV. The entire section is closed based on the book it refers to. It cites sources. Boxers are really like that. They have to be because the standard demands that temperament. If a dog does not display such personality traits then it´s a bad breed dog and should not be allowed to reproduce. By the way, you put a POV tag on an article that cites many sources and avoids considerably subjective matters, why? You should have put the tag POV-section instead. I will remove the tag because it seems unjustified. Loudenvier 18:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I´m doing a few changes and adding a few things to the section of your complaint, because if you felt that way by reading it than many other people would feel it too! But keep in mind that avoiding POV is not the same as avoiding your point of view. To avoid POV you should express ALL or MOST points of view about a subject. When exposing a point of view sometimes the language cannot be entirely neutral (I can´t think of a neutral way to express the temperament of an animal, it´s mainly composed of adjectives!!!). Loudenvier 19:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Percy Snoodle edited the article and commented that references to uncropped ears indicates a POV bias to cropping. I'm not sure how that follows. I think it could be interpreted that drawing attention to the uncropped ears indicates just the opposite, that we're drawing attention to it as a (better) alternative. Maybe? I don't have a strong opinion on it, I just didn't see that it was obviously a POV problem. Rufus Sarsaparilla 20:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I didn´t saw your talk here, and went on and provided my thoughts on the matter on a proper section of the talk page. I think it´s in no way POV, and I also think it´s sound as exactly the opposite of what he feared. It sounds more POV towards uncropped instead of cropped ears. But, in the end, it seems more suited to call uncropped ears natural. It simply sounds more... natural to me. Loudenvier 15:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

My problem with it was that the article pointed out when ears were uncropped, but not when they were cropped; the POV there is that cropped is "normal" and "right" for boxers. Pointing it out in the first image is sensible and illustrative, though. Percy Snoodle 10:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Piccolo von Angertor lineage

I´ve discovered on http://www.americanboxerclub.org/boxer_history.html the lineage of the branch that resulted in Piccolo von Argentor. I´ll have to update the graph to reflect this, but I haven´t the time to do this yet. Did you think it´s best for the article to update the text only after updating the graph? Or some transient inconsistency is bearable? To summarize his lineage is:

• Alt's Flora II (not on graph) is sister to Alt´s Schecken .
• Alt´s Flora II mated with her father Lechner´s Box to produce Maier´s Lord (the first notable boxer sire)
• Maier´s Boxer was mated with Maier´s Flora of unknown parentage which produced Piccolo von Angertor

Regards Loudenvier 20:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

External Links section

I´ve already pointed out about spamming in the External Links section and I did remove it before. User Mwanner backed me up and wrote the following remark on the section:

Please do NOT add External links, unless they meet the standards of WP:EL. In general, valuable information from external sources should be added to the article (re-written). External links must not be commercial in nature, should not be blogs or forums, and should only be added if they provide useful information that is not appropriate to add to the article.

We all know that the links are being written with good faith by the editors. I´ve already read through some of them, and there is indeed valuable information on them. The fact is that it doesn´t matter, if the linked page does not conform to WP:EL then it should be deleted. In other words, if the external linked page was not used as source for the article, then it should not be listed. Please, read WP:EL to understand better this policy. My suggestion for the mantainers of those valuable sites is the following: Be SELFISH! Enforce that your site will be linked by adding value to the article referencing sources on your site. For example, the http://www.cinemaboxers.com have great information about cropping of the ears that should be added. Adding this to the article will ensure the site will be properly referenced. Regards Loudenvier 12:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Health Issues

I'm new to Wiki and didn't want to mess up the links/citations, but I would suggest changing the Health section to the following:

Boxers are prone to develop cancers, heart conditions such as Aortic Stenosis and Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Cardiomyopathy (the so-called "Boxer Cardiomyopathy"), hypothyroidism, hip dysplasia, and degenerative myelopathy; other conditions that may be seen are torsion (bloat), intestinal problems, and allergies (although these last two may be related to diet rather than breed). [Citation for this would be http://www.americanboxerclub.org/healthtbc.html and http://www.americanboxerclub.org/genetic_diseases.html] Responsible breeders test their breeding stock before breeding and in some cases throughout the life of the dog. [Recommended health screening link: http://www.americanboxerclub.org/health-screening.html]

Also, perhaps separating out the section on white Boxers is appropriate, as there is quite a bit of controversy surrounding these dogs.

White boxers are neither albino nor rare, and make up approximately 20-25% of the breed. Genetically, these dogs are fawn or brindle, with excessive white markings overlying the base coat color. These excessive markings mean the white Boxer is more prone to certain health conditions than their colored counterparts. Like fair-skinned humans, white Boxers have a higher risk of sunburn and associated skin cancers than colored Boxers. They are also more prone to congential deafness caused by lack of pigmentation in the inner ear. It is estimated that 18% of white Boxers are deaf in one or both ears, [Citation: http://www.americanboxerclub.org/white-deafness.html] though shelters and rescue organizations see about double this number. In the past, breeders often euthanized white puppies at birth; today, most breeders place white puppies in pet homes with spay/neuter agreements. White Boxers are disqualified from conformation showing by the breed standard, and are prohibited from breeding by every national Boxer club in the world. They can compete in non-conformation events such as obedience and agility, and Boxers of all colors do well as service and therapy dogs.

Newcastle 19:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that your wording is good, but I also feel that it´s lacking information on white boxers suspicious "studies", which is present in the current article (those studies are claimed to be biased because breeders want to justify the euthanization of white-boxers). But, man! THIS IS WIKIPEDIA! Why don´t you change the article yourself? This way we could use the diff tool to see which modifications you did, and change or agree with you! It´s an evolving colaborative work, unless you´re changing drastically the article you don´t need to ask for permission.. Be bold! Change it right away! In the end the article only gets better. But be careful not to cite verbatin from other sites. You cannot breach copyright law! Just a reminder! Loudenvier 15:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, white boxers do not make up 20-25% of the breed. They make up 20-25% of flashy-to-flashy breedings. Yes, in some areas of the world where flash is desirable and they only do flashy-to-flashy breedings, it will be 20-25% white (remember that genetics is theoretical and sometimes more or fewer white puppies are produced each litter). Yet, in areas of the world where flash isn't desirable and only plain-plain breedings take place there will be nearly no white puppies. Another thing to bear in mind is that rescues and shelters mostly only see deaf white boxers because those are the ones that most often end up in rescue due to people's ignorance on canine deafness - they don't see all the hearing white boxers that are happily homed with families. After researching white boxers for over a year now, apart from deafness and sunburn (neither of which are problems, really. Anyone who's ever lived with a congenitally deaf boxer can tell you that they are just normal boxers.. and sunburn can be easily avoided by using sunscreen) I have found no scientific evidence of there being any other "health issues". I can say from experience that what matters is the pre-breeding health tests to ensure high quality breeding stock. A white puppy from health-tested parents is no more susceptible to "health issues" (excluding deafness and sunburn, of course) than their brindle or fawn littermates. Vevd 06:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The article placed a Citation needed warning for all alledged deafness and "cientifical" claims about white boxers. I really disagree with those claims, but everywhere on the web and papers does permeate this notion as if it was right. Since it´s wikipedia we could not only write what we think, we should instead cite what other (reliable) sources stated. Other thing: Where in the world the flashy is not desireable? Please, correct my ignorance of this! And remember that the flashy is rescessive, so a completely plain boxer could (and most probably) have the flashy gene, simply because of the ancestors of the breeding, that were themselves almost completely white (see the genealogy section)). Genetics are probabilistic, of course, that´s why we said that 20%-25% of boxers are white (which means a boxer with more than 1/4 of white markings). (oh, apologize for the clumsy english, I´ve wrote this reply in a hurry!) Loudenvier 14:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the flashy gene is recessive. And no, according to genetics, two plain boxers have no possibility of producing flashy ones (tho i suspect you're thinking of brindle/fawn genetics?). The gene for solid colour is S. It is dominant (written in uppercase). When a boxer has two solid colour genes, they are SS which means they don't carry the w gene at all. w is the extreme white spotting (or extreme piebald) gene, which as you said is recessive. A flashy boxer has one of each genes, so they're Sw. And a white boxer is ww. I understand what you meant, tho, when you said that two plain dogs can produce a white puppy because of the recessive w gene. While this is incorrect, and a boxer is either flashy or not (flashy being able to produce white puppies and plain not being able to), sometimes it is very dificult to tell if a boxer is plain or flashy. Genetically they either are or aren't, but the w gene manifests itself in various ways and it can be extremely difficult to tell. So it is, in fact, human error that would cause you to think this :) (maybe I've oversimplified this, and I'm not making myself clear?) And some breeders here (South Africa) prefer the look of the plain Boxer, so don't breed flashy-to-flashy often. In our Boxer federation here, plain and flashy are treated equally and you can still easily have a champion who's plain, that way the breeders know they can take the most structurally correct pup from a litter - regardles of flash. Vevd 12:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You´ve said the same thing as I´ve said: I was not refering to "Plain" from a genetical view. I was talking "phenotypically". It´s pretty hard, or impossible, to look at a "plain" boxer and tell it is SS not Sw. I didn´t know that in South Africa you did prefer plain boxers. I think all boxers are beutiful, and it´s really hard for me to say what I dislike on them but I´m a kind of traditionalist, I think, to me, the "real boxer" is fawn-flashy. Look at the Von Dom boxers, they all had some kind of flashy. The ancestors were almost all flashy or white. To me, prefering the plain boxer and breeding towards this goal is somewhat a form of denial of the history of the breed and, in my opinion again, the boxer trademark :-). I´ve found some nice pictures from the acestors of the breed, I will be uploading them to the article. But you´ve pointed something important: While, aproximately 20-25% of boxers are white, this information can be misleading and is only an oversimplification of the matters, because people would think that a SS to SS (plain to plain) breeding would produce 20-25% of whites. To complicate matters, the marking and coating genes are not related, and also there is the possibility that white x white could lead to brindle boxers (the boxers are white phenotipically but not genotipically [[1]]). It´s time for an article update on genetics. Loudenvier 14:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Aaah! So we are on the same page, then :) Sorry, I misunderstood you. It would be unfair to generalise and say that most breeders here prefer plain. A lot of breeders here do like flashy boxers, but because there is not much preference in the showring, they dont have to breed specifically for flash, resulting in fewer white puppies (although most breeders here still cull them. The reason why I've done all this research is because I'm trying to create awareness of them) because they can use the structurally most correct pup from a litter regardless of whether or not they're flashy. I personally prefer them with flash (I have one flashy fawn and one ultra-flashy (white :P ) brindle) but I have seen lots of plain dogs in the showring. I look forward to seeing your pictures! On another note, white x white could very well lead to a brindle boxer.. but if we're going in that direction (or even the plain x white to give a theoretical 100% flashy boxers direction) we hit an ethical brick wall, due to the fact that while white boxers are completely normal healthwise (except the sunburn and deafness) lack of pigment on the outside can mean a lack of pigment in their tissues inside them too.. and would it really be beneficial to the breed to introduce something like that into the gene pool when no scientific studies have been done on it and we don't know where it'll lead 5 generations down? And bring on the updated genetics article! Wow, this ended up long. Vevd 15:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I finally got back around here and made the changes I'd suggested a while back; hope they go over well! I left the 20-25% number for whites - remember that for every plain x plain breeding, there is also someone doing a white x white breeding which will, of course, give 100% white puppies. (Yes, I know they'll be either fawn or brindle, as well!) I do think the number is probably closer to 20%, but a range seems more appropriate at this point.

Many Continental European breeders prefer plain Boxers, as well, and in fact their plains are extremely plain, with not even white toe tips. The 'rule of thumb', which will be wrong a very small percentage of the time but is accurate for most cases, is that if a Boxer has white above the wrists, on the dorsal surface of the neck, and more than a dusting or very thin pencil mark on the face, it is genetically plain (SS). This is at birth - some puppies are born with white spots on, for example, the back of their necks which disappear by maturity, however these pups would still be genetically flashy (SSw). (That information, incidentally, is from the veterinarian-geneticist pair of Boxer breeders at BoxerHaven in Norway. :) )

Newcastle 17:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Cropped, uncropped and natural ears

Well, I think it´s nonsense to pay attention to which term is used: uncropped or natural ears. I´m aggressively against cropping of the ears (but I´m in favor of cropping of the tail because it´s a very easy, fast and clean procedure, and not painful at all...). It sounds to me just like trying to be over politically correct, which is something that only foster discrimination (soon we will have to write "he or she" whenever a pronoum is needed only not to provoke the hate of feminists...). It´s not POV. It´s claim is pure nonsense. BUT, I really think it sounds more NATURAL to call uncropped ears "natural". Although driven by the wrong motivation the change to natural ears seems more natural. :-) Loudenvier 15:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

breed name

Firstly, there never was any movement in historical Germany against anglicisms or words derived from the English vocabulary. The only part of Germany which insisted on avoiding anglicisms was the German Democratic Republic, and that's quite a while after the breed of the Boxer was founded and it had a completely different cause.

The term "boxer" describing a fighter fighting with his fists only was already a common term in the Germany of that time and most certainly not frowned upon due any patriotic stance. By the way, I find that paragraph quite POV, Germany at that time was absolutely no different from other countries regarding its patriotic self-image. The mentioned heavy nationalistic tendencies evolved much later and have a different background than normal patriotism.

Secondly, the term "Bierboxer" was already established before the breed was officially founded, the origin may thus either be derived from the names of the earliest dogs referred to here, or it may be derived from "Boxer" (as meaning a fighter in general) or it may be derived from the fact, that many Boxers indeed do use their forepaws a lot when playing or moving objects or tend to butt into people in a friendly manner (which also is a meaning of the term in the German language). To think it stems from actually boxing attackers like a boxer (or kangaroo) would is considered absurd among European breeders.

Actually what you think about the naming is important, but it doesn't change the fact that the cited, reliable author think different from you. So I will insist that that assertion about the name of the breed be kept because it's veriable and properly referenced, even if you (or me, or anyone) disagrees with that. Loudenvier 19:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I did a litle research and found thet the Modern Bullenbeiser was sometimes called Bierboxer. And probably the first boxers were called bierboxers (I used Mixed Bullenbeiser on the genealogy chart, but I could have used Bierboxer interchangeably (don't know for sure yet). I've changed some things in the article to substantiate the theory using bierboxer, but I was unable to find a proper source in english (found in French, Portuguese (my mother tongue), Italian, etc.) If you could provide a good reliable source with more information on the Bierboxer naming it would be very nice! Regards. Loudenvier 19:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I can give it directly from the Munich Boxerclub's chronicles, if you care for a really renowned source: http://www.bk-muenchen.de/cms/publikationen/allgemein/chronik.php3 .

There it says: In München traf man damals sehr häufig, oft spöttisch als Bierboxer bezeichnete Hunde an, die in Roberth Jugenderinnerungen weckten. Boxer hatte er schon lange gekannt, nur waren diese leichter und eleganter. Roberths Steckenpferd waren Hunde, namentlich neue Hunde, und zu diesen, wenigsten für die offizielle Kynologie (Delegierten Commission), gehörte zu jener Zeit der Boxer.

This translates into: At that time one met quite often dogs mockingly called "beer boxers" in Munich, which raised memories of his youth in Roberth. He had known Boxers for a long time, only these were lighter and more elegant. Roberth's hobby were dogs, especially new breeds, and at least for the official kynology (Delegierten Commission) of that time the Boxer belonged to them.

The German and Spanish entries of Wikipedia by the way correctly attribute the term as well. Also, I miss the link to the Munich Boxerclub in the links list, the one club which practically founded the breed ought not to be missing. As to that author's reliability, I contend that if someone makes such patent mistakes and POVs already in an aside comment, very much (deliberately?) misinterpreting language and history, I have some trouble viewing the rest as being a neutral, correct source. Hortaya 08:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem, or better yet, the lack of a problem is that this information comes from a published book by a reliable source. If you're not writing in wikipedia but on a book of your own you can be AS POV as you want. In fact being POV in your publishing is the only way to stand out. It's the author view, and that's reflected in this article when such author is cited (his book are even listed as Look Inside in Amazon.com). It's still confusing for me what those Beer Boxers where. The Bierboxer does not seems to be the Boxer! It seems to be a group of dogs that were mockingly called bierboxers some of which seems to have contributed in the formation of the breed (Alt's Shecken seemed to be considered a bierboxer in many sources, not a mixed bullenbeiser - it also seems that the modern bullenbeiser WERE the bierboxer), and also as inspiration for the breed's name. But now I think the article is richer after you pointed out the bierboxer issue because it mentions yet another theory for the name of the breed (perhaps the best yet, in my opinion - see that I'll not say it is the truth even believing it is, I'll let the reader of the article make his own assumptions... That's the only way to be NPOV!). Regards. Loudenvier 11:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently there was a "type/mix" of dog, much like the Lurcher in Great Britain, which resulted from mixes of Bullenbeisser and other, similar breeds and mixes, which was called "Bierboxer". "Bier" in this regard very probably refers to the "Biergarten", the typical Munich beergarden, an open-air restaurant where people often take their dogs along.

And I am sorry, I still contend that - as it is written now - the Wikipedia text itself claims, that the Germany of that time was nationalistic (as equals "national socialistic/Nazi" as equals "fascist"), which is not just complete nonsense, it is most certainly POV and it leaves a decidedly negative aftertaste regarding this here article. Especially as that conclusion ("Germany would never have used an anglicism being so nationalistic as it was") is entirely wrong and there are by now many sources cited and available which point out the contrary. If that author has a problem with Germany, as he undoubtedly has, then I do not consider him a respectable and noteworthy source for a text which should give a neutral and non-POV rendering of a breed's history and background. Very obviously, even by the source I gave you, it is clear that the term "Boxer" was used freely for many different meanings in the Germany of the time, one of which were a variety of bull dogs in the Munich area of Bavaria.

I understand your point, but what could be done? He is POV on his book [2]. I do also think that Germany is a nationalist country, we all are! See the French, the North American, even us, the poor Brazillians are pretty much nationalists. Could you imagine a French dog receiving an Anglicised name? Permeated with nationalism does not by itself deems a bad thing. There's no correlation to nazism or facism. When constructively used, nationalism is a way to fight back cultural degradation, mass control, foreign culture assimilation, etc. If Germany nationalism was directed for dubious/evil purposes in some past time it doesn't mean the Germany aren't nationalists before or after that. If the evidences for the other theories are stronger, the reader will discard Andrew Brace theory, which he didn't created alone, but rather based on other previous works. To be NPOV we must cite the POVs that exists but keep a proportional equilibrium among them. Rather than opposing Brace's theory, let's expose better the others, so that the reader will make their own decisions. Then we'll correctly refrain from deciding for them. Loudenvier 16:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I did some modifications to the section including information you provided. I think this is geting better and better every time. It would be great if we found more specific (preferably in english) references. Regards Loudenvier 16:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I take it English is not your mother language? There are decided differences between the terms nationalist, nationalistic, patriotism and patriotic, especially when the first two are applied to a country whose worst phase of history was caused by a party called "Nationalsozialistische Partei Deutschland". As it is written here, it is a perfect sample of diatribe rather than actual information, the cause is not difficult to see once one knows how old the author is and from where he originates.

I was able to trace the terms "boxer" (the boxer) and "boxen" (boxing) back to well before 1800, which means that the term was introduced into the German language in the 18th century. By middle of the 19th century it already was so common that normal dictionaries did not even note that it was taken from the English language. The earliest written source for the word "boxer" is a text in the "Deutsches Fremdwörterbuch (German Dictionary of Foreign Words, Berlin 1997), book 3, page 468" which cites an author named Musäus of 1782 writing "daß er aus Furcht vor dem großen Baxer Salmonet ... sich auf einige Tage in ein geräumiges Packfaß ... absentiret hatte". At that time the spelling "baxer" equalled "boxer". The founding of the Boxer breed took place during the late 19th century, which means roughly 150 years AFTER the term got added to plain German language. There was but one small and private association/club in the Germany of the very late 19th and early 20th century against foreign influence on the German language, which never achieved any import whatsoever (not even during the 3rd Reich), and it was mainly oriented towards abolishing French terms in the usage of mail and train services. Additionally, the term "boxen", which is the German verb describing the activity of a Boxer, has a second meaning, which is "butting (something or into something)", which already existed middle of the 19th century. Source for this is the University of Osnabruck, Institute for Linguistic and Literary Sciences, and the Institute for the German Language, Mannheim.

I have edited the text in a way which makes the POV of Mr. Brace clearly his own.

I think that my interpretation of Nationalism still stands. If you believe in a country legitimacy then you`re a nationalist to some extent. Only the extremist nationalist is of any evil. I still don't think that Brace's statement are derogatory. I think it to be more a defensive reaction on the part of the reader. On the other hand, I think the sources and references and the entire breed`s name section to be much better now. I also think it would be good to make a copy-edit in the references section because the new reference is too long. Regards. Loudenvier 13:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Too many home-pictures

I know, I know it's a very good thing to have your boxer puppy picture on wikipedia, but there are currently too many pictures on the article, and its starting to diminish the quality of the article. Many of those pictures does not present new information (is redundant) and also does not (in some cases) represents the boxer standard, or are themselves of low quality. The picture on the breed infobox for example is not what I would call the best picture to represent the boxer (both dogs does not look strong as the breed demands, looking a litle fragile and are reverse brindle which does not represent the majority of the breed). See the Great Dane and compare the breed infobox picture. In that article it was from a show-grade dog (actually a marvelous specimen!!!). It would not be too difficult finding or making a picture in a high standard from a high standar boxer to put in wikipedia given the exposure of this encyclopedia. I will be reverting the additions of images that seems to be superfluous or redundant for the article. If anyone disagree with any deletion, please, discuss it on the talk page before puting the image back, this way we will remain civilized and will also stop short a possible revert war. Loudenvier 20:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, although I'd hate to see my existing picture go away :-) (And it would be hard to say which ones should go, but I'd rather see a more professional article.) I don't know how well this might represent the standard, but I'll submit this for consideration (if people want to use it I'd be happy to upload a larger image): (Image link removed) Rufus Sarsaparilla 23:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Very beautiful dog!!! I´ve asked for a professional breeder if her was willing to submit a picture of one of her boxers champion and I think it's best for us to wait for her answer because such a dog would certainly, objectively, represent the standard! But seeing Morgan, and being non-objective, I dare to say that she would suffice! :-) Perhaps I could make a picture with her and the male champion... Let's wait a litle (the boxer I've asked permission to use his pictures have the ears cropped and it would be nice representing both cropped and natural ears). Regards (By the way I'vedownloaded your picture to my collection of Boxer pictures...) Loudenvier 01:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Loudenvier. I know this isn't meant as a discussion forum for our dogs, and not to get all mawkish about it, but Morgan got cancer and died earlier this year at age 6. She had been in great shape and she was gone within a day of discovering it. It was that bad. So that prompted me to upload the one picture with our cat -- very much a home picture but I had hoped also illustrated good domestic qualities. Her dad was a champion but she was "just" a pet. Anyway, that's all neither here nor there for making a good Boxer article. We'll see what develops. Rufus Sarsaparilla 03:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am very sad to know that Morgan passed away so early. This picture of Morgan is of good quality. The lighting is good. It looks lika professional setup. Where it was taken? I think that this picture is a good candidate for the infobox! Once again, I feel very sorry by her passing this soon. Regards. Loudenvier 04:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way the Morgan picture currently in the article is one that is actually adding something to it: It shows a boxer coexisting with other pets. This picture will certainly stay in the article if we all got some good sense after all! But, isn't she a fawn boxer? Loudenvier 04:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for your comments. She was a light Brindle. Rufus Sarsaparilla 10:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Very disappointing -- I couldn't get permission to use the picture. It's my dog and I paid money for the picture, but the photographer holds the copyright. Maybe some day when we live in a more free culture. I'll have to figure out how to get the picture removed from Wikipedia. Rufus Sarsaparilla 13:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I really think that no contract could stop you from using the picture of your own dog that you yourself paid for... I would fight to get the photographer sued, he probably cheat you into signing a contract like that, where he takes the money for taking your picture and still holds copyright over it. How come you pay to give copyright to another one? Ridiculous... Regards. Loudenvier 15:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the person who creates the work (the photographer) retains the copyright unless and until they release it. If you'd like, you can use photos of my Champion male (cropped) - http://www.newcastleboxers.com/Images/hugo_stud.jpg - and my pointed female (uncropped) - http://www.newcastleboxers.com/Images/emma_jaxon_cropped.jpg - so long as they are considered different from the WikiMedia Commons images (they should not be considered public domain or free-for-all-use, etc.) Newcastle 17:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't really know much about WikiMedia Commons, but I think for Wikipedia in general, images need to be either fair use or licensed freely, e.g. GFDL or CC BY (SA is also fine, but not NC/ND). Rufus Sarsaparilla 19:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The Wikimedia commons allows you to use other licenses than the GFDL. I think that the Attribion-Sharealike (by-sa) [3] license would probably be fine to you: You still got credit for the pictures and allows its use and derivative works, any of them will also need to credit you about the original. Regards Loudenvier 20:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Gallery and guidelines

We could incorporate a gallery of sorts with boxer pictures at the end of the article. I think that as a guideline the picture to be elligible for the gallery will have to come from Wikipedia Commons. This way it will not be only a gallery for vanity, but a gallery with images contributed to the public domain on the Wikipedia commons server which makes it possible to be used easyly in any other wikipedia in any other language. Of course, this gallery would have a limit imposed by common sense, but since I can't make sense of its preferable size right now I will not suggest any. Regards Loudenvier 14:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I have started the gallery with a few nice pictures, including the nice pet that didn't make into the article itself. Please, do not add further pictures to the article unless they bring some new information along (a good picture of a white boxer is desperately needed...). Also add only images to the gallery that are from wikimedia commons, this will help reducing the amount of duplicate files among wikipedia projects. Try to include only high quality images on the gallery. Remember: When you upload an image it will go to the public domain and anything could be done with it after that. If you don't feel confortable with that, then do not upload an image. This gallery will hopefully help protected the undesired growth of pictures inside the article, rendering it unreadable. Regards. Loudenvier 03:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

White male at 2 years old pic

That's funny and sounds racist.