Talk:Catholic Church

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Taking some time away[edit]

If this is not the appropriate place to post this, feel free to take it down. I'm putting it here so the relevant editors see it.

As a gesture of good will, I'm going to take the advice of @Zfish118: and take some time away from this article for a couple of weeks. In the meantime I'll only come back if I notice blatant typos or blatant vandalism. Please take this as a sign that despite my habit of getting myself into arguments with other editors, I really do want this article and others to be the best they can be. Deus vult (aliquid)! Crusadestudent (talk) 20:01, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

(I do not intend this to include uncontroversial, productive talk page discussions.) Deus vult (aliquid)! Crusadestudent (talk) 04:06, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
Okay, it's been about a month. I'll be back to editing here when I see something constructive I can do. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} | talk | contribs) 15:32, 24 June 2016 (UTC) (formerly Crusadestudent)

Latin name[edit]

I never really got a straight answer before... does anyone oppose the addition of the Latin name (i.e. Ecclesia catholica) to the first sentence? Latin is the official language of the Church, and the articles on Church documents generally list both their Latin and English names. It would look like this:

"The Catholic Church (Latin: Ecclesia catholica), also known as..."

Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 16:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Seems kind of clunky up there, but I have no strong opinion on the matter. If it included in the sidebar, I don't see the need to merely repeat in the lead. --Zfish118talk 22:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Zfish118. Prefer not to include. Sundayclose (talk) 22:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I oppose it. It's not needed in the opening sentence. It belongs in the info box where it already appears. The opening sentence is already long and adding more information to it which already appears in a more appropriate place is not helpful. Afterwriting (talk) 00:24, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Okay, those seem like reasonable rationales against inclusion. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 00:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

However, is it valid to have the font size of "Catholic Church" enlarged in the infobox, and if so why, please? Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Misleading sentence in lead[edit]

"The Latin Church, the Eastern Catholic Churches, as well as institutes such as mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders, reflect a variety of theological and spiritual emphases in the Church."

This makes it sound as if the orders are divorced from the Latin and Eastern particular churches (e.g. that Franciscans cannot be Maronites, or that no Ukranian Greek Catholic is a Carmelite), which is not the case if I'm not mistaken. juju (hajime! | waza) 05:58, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I don't even know how the wording became what is. Here is the original discussion on the addition of the idea, with a different wording:
I believe the original wording was: "Within the Catholic Church, there are a variety of different doctrinal and theological emphases. These may be most visible between the various Particular churches, including the Eastern Catholic Churches, as well as between the religious orders like the Jesuits and the Dominicans."--Coquidragon (talk) 07:14, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
a) I don't think it does, especially, and b) I think orders are normally restricted to one rite. Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the new working is less clear that the original wording, and Jujutsuan's question is a clear example of ambiguities that could arise.
Also, Johnbod, what do you mean by "restricted to one rite." Some orders have the privilege of having their own rites, whether they are used or not today (ie. Benedictine, Dominicans). Some orders have members from different rites (ie. Although most Jesuits are of Latin rite, there are some of the Byzantine, Maronite, Siro-Malabar, and Ukrainian Church, among others, and hence belonging to their respective rites.--Coquidragon (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Please feel free to go ahead and propose a new wording in the article. Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Criticism, Anti-Catholicism, Persecution[edit]

The last paragraph of the lead section currently states: "From the late 20th century, the Catholic Church has been criticised for its doctrines on sexuality, its refusal to ordain women and its handling of sexual abuse cases." However, this arguable says little in a global, broadly historical perspective. It is arguably too Western-centered and 20th century related a sentence. What about expanding it or at least changing it to something encompassing more of the Anti-Catholicism met by the church during its history around the world, including in these days - being the majority of a religion considered the most persecuted in the world as we speak? Chicbyaccident (talk) 19:46, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree. 50-100 years of one type of criticism do not warrant a place in the lead of an article about a 2,000 year old institution. Instaurare (talk) 20:15, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Those three areas of criticism don't necessarily apply only to the time from the late 20th century, but I don't see how they are "too Western-centered". Are you saying that those problems are predominantly Western, because they're not? Sundayclose (talk) 21:05, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
I agree that the sentence shouldn't be in the introduction. Indeed I would cut the intro significantly. With such a big topic, it is hard to summarize. I would remove everything except the first two paragraphs, and then merge those two paragraphs into one, significantly rewriting the second paragraph. The intro makes it sound like the seven sacraments, the Marian devotions, the social teaching as well as the late 20th century criticism are unique to the Catholic Church and are therefore definitional. I would suggest a short, simple just-the-facts introduction followed by sections that are short introductions to the topics with prominent "Main article" tags. I would suggest a short, sweet intro that says something like:
"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with more than 1.27 billion members worldwide. As one of the oldest religious institutions in the world, it has played a prominent role in the history of Western civilisation. Headed by the Bishop of Rome, known as the pope, its doctrines are summarised in the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church is notable within Western Christianity for its sacred tradition and seven sacraments. The Catholic Church consists of the dominant western Latin Church and several, much smaller Eastern Catholic Churches. Within these particular churches are various institutes such as mendicant orders and enclosed monastic orders, which reflect a variety of theological and spiritual emphases in the Church."--Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 03:24, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

This would violate Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section:

  • "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." ... "As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate."
  • "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article."

A single-paragraph introduction could not accomplish this. Also you fail to summarize the section "Social and cultural issues" which does cover most of the modern controversies. Also the negative role this Church has played in the development of Western civilisation is downplayed. There is nothing on the Investiture Controversy, the Crusades, the Western schism, the Counter-Reformation, the Roman Question. Nothing about Papal claims to power, or anything about the Church's history of religious intolerance. Dimadick (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm for instance thinking about Christianity being the most persecuted religion currently, and the Catholic Church being the largest Christian church. This could perhaps be included in the bottom paragraph mentioned, if not also the a few words about the historical conditions in the same fashion. Chicbyaccident (Please notify with {{SUBST:re}} (Talk) 14:26, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

"Pope" or "pope" and the need for consistency[edit]

We've been over this before and my own viewpoint that "pope" can be capitalised as the proper name of a particular ministry was not supported by many others. The MoS treats the word as generic and says it shouldn't be capitalised by itself. The Catholic Church article consistently uses "pope" except in quotations so the disambiguation information at the top should do so as well (even though the Pope article is inconsistent as are many church publications). Afterwriting (talk) 12:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree. Uppercase "P" for a particular pope; lowercase "pope" for the general term. Sundayclose (talk) 15:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
The accepted convention is lower case for popes in general, and capital for a specific person, eg., "Pope Francis is the current pope". Similarly, bishop, priest, deacon, do not need to be capitalized unless referring to a specific individual, Bishop Andrew, Deacon James, etc. Protoclete (talk) 12:27, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

RfC about the names of both the Catholic church and the Orthodox church[edit]

I've started an RfC about the title of this article and the name of the article on the Orthodox church. The RfC is found here; I suggest keeping the discussion in one place. Jeppiz (talk) 19:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Mary as Mother of God[edit]

Recently, the section explaining the main Marian dogmas was changed. Instead of saying "her status as the Mother of God," it was changed to "her status, as the mother of Jesus, as Mother of God." I am not sure which editor added this content. This section has been the same for years, and this addition was not only unnecessary and a blatant misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine, but can be easily inferred by anyone who has a basic understanding of Christianity or Catholicism. I can explain clearly why the article should be left as I have just made it. Mary was prepared to be the vessel for the Word of God from her moment of conception, when she was preserved from all concupiscence, in what is known to us as the Immaculate Conception. Then, the Archangel Gabriel visited the Virgin Mary and asked for her consent to take part in the Incarnation, to give birth to the Word of God, soon to be known as Jesus Christ. The Second Person of the Trinity, as God, existed from all eternity, but came into our world through the womb of Mary. Jesus is God, and God is Jesus. There are NOT two persons in one Jesus, but one divine person with two natures: one divine and one human. What I have just described is a very basic Catholic doctrine, which this article is supposed to summarize. Despite the ignorant beliefs of Arius and Nestorius, Jesus was, is, and always will be God Himself. He did not become God at His Baptism, nor was He just a very holy psychopath claiming to be God, as those heretics would tell you. I will not allow Jesus to be slandered on this page dedicated to His Church, and I am confident that I am not breaking any rules in restoring this article to the way it was. In the meantime, I will investigate who made the improper change, though I suspect it was the editor who misused a warning template against me, User:Sundayclose. Thank you, and God bless! ~Lord Laitinen~ (talk) 06:40, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

We need more than your opinions. We need reliable sources. Sundayclose (talk) 15:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
The edit was originally placed by Afterwriting here and was modified by Haldraper here and restored by Afterwriting here. So I don't know why @Afterwriting: chose such awkward phrasing or insists that @Haldraper: can't streamline it. But I suggest that the original wording was much better - I don't object at all to linking "Mary, mother of Jesus" somewhere in the phrase - but shoehorning it in right where we are discussing the Marian Dogmas is only going to confuse the issue. Elizium23 (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
On second thought, Haldraper's edit was less than ideal, he cut the whole concept of "Theotokos" which is very important. That article and the term should definitely be included, not just "Roman Catholic Mariology". Elizium23 (talk) 17:44, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
As indicated by Elizium23, this was a recent addition (June 2016), which was not previously discussed. The dogma is Theotokos (in Greek, Θεοτόκος), which means "God-bearer" or "Birth-giver to God," which in English is translated as Mother of God. It is obvious that she is the mother of Jesus, yet this mention is unnecessary since the dogma specifically says her giving birth to God. In any case, since it is a recent addition, which was reverted at least once, and it is now once again in question, the discussion should be to add such clarification, not to keep it.--Coquidragon (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)