Talk:Concordia University/Archive 2

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"foreign" terms

i italicized "collège classique" because it is a French term in an otherwise English document, that refers to a concept germane to French academia. it's not every day usage for montrealers or canadians otherwise it might have been left in. -- Denstat 20:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:RM Notice: Revert move by Uac1530 to return Concordia University back to Concordia University

  • I think the move should be reverted, as Uac1530 ignored the previous WP:RM proposal and acted unilaterally. 132.205.64.80
    • Infact the Concordia in Montreal is just more notable. How many other Concordia's can have an international diplomatic incident occur in them (as with Benjamin Netanyahu) or has a massacre on campus (as with Valerie Fabrikant) or a nationally (Canada) known riot (Sir George Williams Computer Riot)? 132.205.64.80 21:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it back based on previous decision and the lack of recent discussion about the move. There may be a valid argument for the move but it should be discussed properly first. violet/riga (t) 21:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation

NOTE previous renaming discussion was archived at: Talk:Concordia University/Archive 1#Proposed move

I am going to bring up this issue again. Concordia University should be a disambiguation page that takes the place of the Concordia page, since Concordia doesn't refer simply to colleges and universities.

While the Concordia University in Montreal may have more students, it has only been known as Concordia since 1974(?). The Concordia Universities of the Lutheran Church have been "Concordia" stretching back to the 1840's.

The argument for Concordia University in Montreal is somewhat provincial. We are not asking for one of the other Concordias to take its place at the Concordia University site - simply for a disambiguation.

I am really tired of spelling disambiguation.

It appears that spinboy was the real voice of keeping things this way, and according to his user page, he has left Wikipedia. This change should be made.

True, Spinboy is now gone, but his arguement remains valid. I don't think a contributor's departure is a valid reason for such a change. I very much object to the move. --Victoriagirl 21:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

see: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools)

Why?

Why do you oppose the move?

His argument is basically this: it's the biggest one and they had a shooting there. Okay. Fine.

It's not the only one. It's not the oldest one. So... Why shouldn't there be a separation page? He says the other ones aren't notable.

It's not like were talking about Harvard or Oxford. Not everyone on the planet associates Concordia University with Montreal. Probably not even everybody in Canada. We are not suggesting that Concordia University be replaced with a different Concordia, we are suggesting that, according to the guidelines of Wikipedia, it makes the most sense for Concordia Universtiy to be a disam., not for there to be a link to a disam. from Concordia University, which has the Montreal article.


This is the way it should have been a long time ago.

--Uac1530 03:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

It was settled by group consensus that the page not be moved; Concordia University (Montreal) is the Concordia University. I vehemently oppose the move. --The lorax 06:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Why? Again, a contributor's departure is not a valid reason for such a change. The previous decision was reached by group consensus, it was not decreed by a lone contributor. --Victoriagirl 15:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Why?

1. It's not 1974, since it's a merger between two previous institutions. Look at Loyola College and Sir George Williams University. Does NYC have no link to New Amsterdam? Does English history have no bearing on the UK? Concordia's history starts at the Montreal YMCA in 1851 and at College Ste-Marie in 1848.
2. Concordia in Montreal is just more notable. There was a massacre there committed by Valerie Fabrikant, which was noted internationally, and very nationally known (Canada). There was a nationally known riot there (Sir George Williams Computer Riot). There was a major international diplomatic incident there, when Benjamin Netanyahu was forced to leave without speaking.
3. It has more students than all the other ones combined, which means it is more notable to potential students. It also offers an almost complete set of programs and courses, which is another reason potential students would be looking for this Concordia in particular.
4. There was a no move the last time it was proposed, and you didn't even propose it at WP:RM
5. This has the best article of any Concordia (ok, not a very good reason)
6. You ignored others.
7. The dab page is not more notable.

-- 132.205.64.80 21:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Consensus?

There was no consensus one way or the other.

Saying it is "The Concordia University" is an opinion contrary to the facts. It isn't. I'm sorry, this is not an Ivy League school famous around the world.

Again, it is not being replaced with one of the other universities.

I don't understand the anger. It's one extra click. This is fair, and frankly, this is most consistent with the policies of Wikipedia.

--Uac1530 19:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You'll note that a request for a move was discussed in March 2005. At that time no action was taken as "there was no consensus for it be moved". You've now chosen to make this move unilaterally. This hardly seems consistant with the policies of Wkipedia. I'll disregard the comment concerning perceived anger. --Victoriagirl 21:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose any move. This is stupid. This University is the most recognized of any of them. Ardenn 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

Well, here's the actual Wikipedia policy for naming schools:

   * Convention: school article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself. If there are other school articles that would have the same name, to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parenthesis.


There are other locations. Concordia University should be a disambiguation page.

I posted a link above to the naming conventions for schools.

I am sorry if I perceived anger and there was none.

--Uac1530 04:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm fully aware of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (schools), just as I am aware that it is headed with the following tag:

{{Proposed}}

The move cannot be justified as following policy.

--Victoriagirl 17:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Justified.

It can be justified as trying to follow a policy that is trying to simplify and build consensus. Yes, it's a proposal, but it's a proposal that makes sense and which does not have an alternative policy in place. Thanks for actually reading it, by the way.

It can be justified by the fact that Concordia University (Montreal) is not the only Concordia University, which is, indeed, the point of disambiguation.

It is a FACT that there are more than one Concordia University. It is an OPINION that the one in Montreal is more important, famous, etc.

Seriously, I don't know what the problem is. There's more than one. So make Concordia University a disambiguation page. What's the harm? What's the problem?

--Uac1530 19:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Massacre

So, if, let's say, Concordia - Wisconsin has a massacre on campus, can we have a disambiguation page?

It was discussed. It is being discussed. What is the process to go through for this?

I personally think it is a very provincial idea that the Montreal Concordia is "the" Concordia.

--Uac1530 04:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Please keep the discussion page in a readable format.

I personally think that until you can find something noteworthy about the other Concordias, you'd not have a leg to stand on. You might want to improve (or create, some of the other Concordias are redlinks) the Concordia articles for what you might consider notable. As it stands, virtually all of the other Concordias have very stubby articles. This does seem to indicate the level of notariety they have, since they don't seem to have editors. 70.51.8.140 08:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

CNN runs news stories on every killing at an educational institution, across the globe. It is a valid point of why Concordia in Montreal is more notable. I also don't like the fact that you find that murders are insignificant events beneath your consideration. 70.51.8.140 09:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not that I find murder insignificant, it is that I do not find it a reason to assign "The" status to Concordia- Montreal. It does not make it more notable, it might make it more infamous.

It is a very good point that the other Concordias do not have good articles. Perhaps I will give up tilting Canadian windmills until some of the other pages actually have content to them.

--Uac1530 09:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Just because you think infamy is not a measure of notability doesn't mean it's true. Infamy is a measure of notability. Think about all the infamous people, pleaces, and things that are notable because of their infamy. Nero, Caligula, Jim Jones, Order of the Solar Temple, Heaven's Gate, Joseph Mangele, Pol Pot, etc. I think you're not being objective in ignoring the infamous incidents. 132.205.46.135 21:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This conversation is difficult to follow, as it is extremely fragmented. Ardenn 18:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I've started a request for comment on this. Ardenn 18:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Voting

Add oppose or support at the bottom, here in regards to Uac1530's disambiguation proposal. The proposal is to rename this article "Concordia University (Montreal)". "Concordia University" would become the disambiguation page.

  • Note that a Concordia University (disambiguation) page has been established and currently is available as a link at the top of the Concordia University page. A vote to support is thus a vote for renaming the article. A vote to oppose is for the status quo. Please include a brief rationale along with your vote. Longer comments may be added in the (refactored) "Comments" section, below.

The voting will close on July 20, 2006 at midnight UTC.

The result of the debate was 8 opposed, 2 support, 1 no vote; thus, Montréal's Concordia University article stays put, no DAB. The lorax 00:57, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose any move. This is stupid. This University is the most recognized of any of them. This issue was already settled. Ardenn 18:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1) With 30,000 students, Montreal's Concordia University has well-over twice the combined enrolment of the other eight instiutions baring the name. Its enrolment is 27 times that of Portland and 50 times greater than that of Ann Arbor. 2) The notable alumni of Montreal's Concordia University includes: a former Governor General, a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, a former Prime Minister of Dominica, a winner of the Pulitzer Prize for fiction and a National Book Award, and three winners of the Governor General's Award for Literature. 3) Sitting on half a dozen blocks of the city's core, the institution is a major feature in the physical and cultural landscape of Montreal.--Victoriagirl 18:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:DAB see Zurich and numerous other such pages for examples. Concordia in Montreal is clearly the best known and most notable one out there. (I'm sure people in Zurich, Kansas may feel the same way abouth how the dab has been handled in that case, but the principle is "When a reader enters this term and pushes "Go", what article would they realistically be expecting to view as a result?" (from WP:DAB). With the exception of a small number of people who attend the other ones, the answer is this one.Bridesmill 19:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is similar to American University (disambiguation). Perhaps the solution is to create a proper Concordia University (disambiguation) page instead redirecting to Concordia. In fact, I'm going to do that now. --Usgnus 19:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose no question. The Montreal school is by far the most common university of the bunch. -- Samir धर्म 23:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  • No vote since I'm a Concordia graduate and have a conflict of interest. However, the other universities appear to be known under different names like "Concordia University Ann Arbor" instead of "Concordia University". Also, looking at the list of incoming links shows almost all of them referring to Concordia University in Montreal. Fagstein 03:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support I still think the importance of Concordia Montreal is being overstated. This is the *English* Wikipedia, not the *Canadian* Wikipedia. I would argue throughout the English speaking world, none of these Concordias is particularly well known outside of its own sphere of influence. The idea that only people who attend the other Concordias wouldn't think of Concordia Montreal is laughable.
  • Support. Disambiguation page is the only fair thing to do, and some arguments against it are specious. Just to address a very few, "notability" is impermanent, and many of you seem to be confusing it with notoriety. Montreal's Concordia has plenty of the latter, and still stuggles with the former. It's a top North American school for some areas of study, and a great "young" university, but is not yet a name that conjures "world class excellence". The quantity argument over student population is laughable, given the far older Concordias' population of students over time. I'd also say that a ten-state Lutheran university has a significant presence and identity. Being one myself, I say too many alumni are weighing in for some kind of popularity or identity contest -- yes this school is vital, unique and important, but it chose a generic name shared by other institutions (surely the Jesuits of Loyola would have known of the Lutheran system), and for that reason alone requires a disambiguation page. -- Denstat 17:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Concordia in Montreal is clearly more notable, even if it is only because it is more infamous. Infamy is a measure of notability. However, Concordia in Montreal also does more research than the other Concordias, even the Concordia University System taken as a whole. The Benjamin Netanyahu incident gives Concordia in Montreal visibility in the global Jewish community. The massacre gives regular visibility in the world. 132.205.46.135 21:26, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment It should probably be noted that this is a Concordia University (Montreal) IP address. Fagstein 23:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Yes, but then again, it's not a registered user, and so it should be discounted anyway. --Usgnus 23:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Actually, as I read Wikipedia policy, anon votes are only discounted if they don't establish a proper argument, or are likely to be sockpuppets. They are however given less weight. I have given a nice argument, and have not been disruptive, so an automatic dismissal of my views is prejudicial to what Wikipedia is supposed to be about (something that anyone can edit, without registering). I have only voted once, even though I appear from multiple Concordia based IP addresses, so I have not sockpuppeted myself. I have commented several times though. What about my arguments is not cogent? 132.205.44.127 23:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
          • If I had meant "ignored", I would have written that. Two of the meanings of discount are "to make allowance for bias or exaggeration" and "to view with a doubt". --Usgnus 23:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
            • I seem to have misinterpreted you. However, many people use "discount" as a synonym for "ignore". (as in, uncounted) 132.205.44.134 22:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. With the disambiguation page, the reader is quickly referred to other Concordia Universities or Colleges. I think that this the best way to go given that (as has been well documented in the comments), Concordia University in Montreal is more notable by virtually every measure: Academic achievements, history, size, and newsworthiness. Sunray 17:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per reasons already given. The proposed move is completely unnecessary. --Skeezix1000 23:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments

The Concordia Universities in the United States are part of a system of a 2.5 million member Lutheran denomination, and their graduates form the bulk of the teachers of the USA's largest protestant school system.

The Concordia Universities in the United States have been Concordia longer, too, and thus have more history with the name.

Question for you all: how many of you are Canadian?

When I google Zurich, every page on the first page has to do either with Zurich, Switzerland, or Zurich North America, a company based in Zurich.

Google Harvard University or Oxford University. Everything has to do with the university in question. Google

Google Concordia University: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=concordia+university&btnG=Search

It reads like what the Concordia University page on Wikipedia should read: a disambiguation. --Uac1530 04:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

  • comment I think it incorrect to describe Concordia University in Montreal as not "particularly well known outside its own sphere of influence" (which I take to mean Canada). The university currently has an enrolment of 3,515 international students, a much larger figure than the entire student populations of each of the eight other Concordias. Among the notable alumni who attended as foreign students are Rosie Douglas, the former Prime Minister of Dominica and E. Anne Proulx, winner of the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award.--Victoriagirl 05:04, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no other Harvard University or University of Oxford that I know of, so googling them is somewhat irrelevant. If you LexisNexis search "concordia", the first twenty hits are all about the school in Montreal [1] (subscription needed). As a surrogate, none of the Concordia Universities are medical schools, but if you PubMed search Concordia, 99 of the first 100 references are from the school in Montreal [2]. Here's a better school comparator: if you Google Southwestern University (directs to the school in Georgetown, Texas, not to dab), you get a law school in Los Angeles, another unafilliated school in Texas, a school in the Philippines, and a school in Georgia as the first 5 hits [3]. -- Samir धर्म 05:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment "There is no other Harvard University or University of Oxford that I know of, so googling them is somewhat irrelevant"
Actually, that's the point of this whole thing: There are other universities named Concordia University, quite a few of them, so there should be a disambiguation page.
A better example might be Cornell. When I say Cornell, you probably think of the Ivy League school in Ithaca, NY. There is a Cornell College in Iowa. When you google it, 9 of the first 10 references are to Cornell University. It is obviously much more renowned. When you google Concordia University, every one of the Concordia Universities comes up on the first page.
Once again, I would like to restate, I am not appealing for Concordia Montreal to be replaced, I am appealing for a disambiguation. I am not even arguing that Concordia Montreal is not the largest, most important, etc. of the various Concordias. I am saying, however, that it is not so renowned and so connected to the name "Concordia" that it should be on a page that, rightly, should be a disambiguation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Uac1530 (talkcontribs) .
No, I don't think you see the point. Sure there are other schools named Concordia University, and there is a disambiguation page. Show us as many relevant news articles and scholarly articles from *any* of the other Concordia Universities, and then the link should be to a dab page. Otherwise, it should go to the institution with most relevance to the search, which would be the Montreal school, as evidenced by the searches above. Here's the Google Scholar search on Concordia University: [4]; there's nary a mention of any Concordia University aside from the one in Montreal -- Samir धर्म 07:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
That is simply a product of the fact that Concordia in Montreal is much larger, and has more colleges, whereas the other ones are for the most parts teacher colleges or liberal arts colleges. I will gladly concede and have conceded that Montreal is the largest, most important, whatever, but that's not the standard. It's not a competition and whoever has the most articles wins. The point is that there are many Concordias, and while there is one that is quite a bit larger and may even be more well know, it is not so much more well known throughout *the English-speaking world* that "Concordia University" is synonymous with the school of that name in Montreal. It is not as famous as you are representing.
I have given up on this. As I said earlier in the argument, I think the point that Montreal has a very full article while the others do not is reason enough to leave things as they are for now. I think looking honestly at the policies and purposes of Wikipedia, and the actual standing of Concordia University in Montreal in the English-speaking world, the proper thing is a disambiguation page. When some of the other pages are developed to the point that they merit new consideration, I will bring this up again, and I hope that those of you who have taken an interest in this to defend the "The"-ness of Concordia Montreal will look at it more objectively.
--Uac1530 07:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
But you've failed to establish anything like the notability that Concordia in Montreal has for any of the other Concordias. What is it that makes the other Concordias so notable that a DAB should be primary? 132.205.46.135 21:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation page is the only fair thing to do, and some arguments against it are specious. Just to address a very few, "notability" is impermanent, and many of you seem to be confusing it with notoriety. Montreal's Concordia has plenty of the latter, and still stuggles with the former. It's a top North American school for some areas of study, and a great "young" university, but is not yet a name that conjures "world class excellence". The quantity argument over student population is laughable, given the far older Concordias' population of students over time. I'd also say that a ten-state Lutheran university has a significant presence and identity. Being one myself, I say too many alumni are weighing in for some kind of popularity or identity contest -- yes this school is vital, unique and important, but it chose a generic name shared by other institutions (surely the Jesuits of Loyola would have known of the Lutheran system), and for that reason alone requires a disambiguation page. -- Denstat 17:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The standard here is incoming links, per Wikipedia policy on disambiguation. The vast, vast majority of incoming links for "Concordia University" refer to the Montreal institution, which suggests that the disambiguation page should not be the main page. Fagstein 18:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I see that as only a partial justification. The desire to give Mtl. Concordia its due shouldn't supercede the fact that there are many universities in North America with the exact same name, that leads to confusion. As I refer to above, I think it's premature to confer Mtl Concordia that kind of primacy. -- Denstat 05:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Of those participating in this discussion, the only one who identified him or herself as a graduate of Concordia in Montreal cited conflict of interest and chose not to vote. As for the assertion that Concordia in Montreal is a "young" unviversity, its history stretches back to 1896, longer than six of the eight universities in the Concordia University System. It has been named "Concordia University" for 32 years, longer than at least five of the eight CUS universities (I've not been able to determine when the Concordias in Austin and Seward achieved accreditation). I don't think the enrolment size of Concordia in Montreal irrelevant. It is just as likely - if not more - that the number of alumni of Montreal's Concordia and its predecessors is greater than that of all the CUS universities combined.--Victoriagirl 00:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Please clarify what you mean about conflict of interest, preferably with reference to the appropriate policy -- I've just been through several policy pages and haven't been able to locate one that suggests how being an openly declared alumna who opposes a change that might popularize my alma mater, represents a conflict of interest. If it is I'd be happy to change my vote to a comment. And I find it interesting how Uac1530's question about how many of us here are Canadian went unanswered -- because it's an excellent question to determine bias or chauvinism. For the record, to put my comments into context, I am Canadian. I did not state that enrolment size was "irrelevant". It is, however, true that all arguments contrasting student population and enrolment are in question if the research is incomplete, which reiterates my point: how can people claim arguments of value and quantity about how one school or system is primary, if the facts and figures are not known? Perhaps voting, or rather, acting on a vote, might be postponed until the actual research is complete. I find this entire discussion replete with assumption based on an inadequate amount of fact, and lacking in objective criteria; Wiki is supposed to be encyclopaedic, not suppositional. Again, my position on a DAB page is about clarifying confusion about similar names. If arguments measuring value are being used to defeat the argument for clarity, then clearer criteria and facts/evidence are needed to support the former. -- Denstat 16:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll reiterate that the standard according to Wikipedia policy is incoming links and editors' consensus. Looking at "What links here" for Concordia University clearly shows all links (that I could find in a few minutes of searching) refer to the Montreal institution. Does anyone dispute this? If not, the sole question becomes one of consensus. Fagstein 17:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I won't comment on the term "conflict of interest" as it was cited by another, Fagstein, as the reason he or she chose not to vote. I won't presume to speak for another user. However, I will say that Fagstein's comment in no way implies that his or her decision is related to Wikipedia policy. I can only speak for myself in stating that I chose to ignore the question of my nationality as I didn't find it relevant to the discussion. I do not vote according to which passport I happen to hold, and would not presume to question American participants. I might add that my nationality, Canadian, is hardly hidden; in fact, it is included on my userpage, should anyone care to investigate. The facts and figures I've quoted are correct and easily verifiable through the websites of the various institutions under discussion. I see no reason for prolonging this exercise.--Victoriagirl 18:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: The point about nationality wasn't specifially directed at you, Victoriagirl, but intended to raise awareness of the possibility of unconscious national bias. I have voted, commented, and raised what I consider critical points and questions. There seems to be a majority rather than consensus on this issue (WP:CON), but to avoid WP:POINT and repetition, as long as my vote is considered legitimate, it stands, and in the spirit of WP:VINE I have nothing more to add. -- Denstat 18:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Aside from producing teachers, what does the Lutheran Concordia University System do? All universities produce teachers. Ofcourse the Concordia University System has its own article, and not dabbed, so it is not an overly relevant issue. We haven't redirected Concordia University System to Concordia University afterall. Individually, what is notable about the schools of the Concordia University System? 132.205.46.135 21:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't know. But it seems to me that in the push for validation of the Mtl. Concordia, that the discussion has degenerated into arguments about value that push out the fact that it's not the only institution bearing this name that is of value. Certainly they must be doing something right, and be some kind of intellectual force in their communities and in academia, to be spread across ten states. What if the main difference between the Lutheran System and Montreal in the WikiWorld, is that Montreal has attracted more 'Net-savvy, politicized Wikipedian types who have merely written more articles about the latter due to its more volatile politics? For example, Google (see link above) tells me that the Concordia University in River Forest, Illinois, is a 140-year-old institution. I think they'd be rather astonished to learn that they aren't perceived as valuable in the Wikipedia. -- Denstat 05:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I don't know that 132.205.46.135 was questioning the value of the institutions of the Concordia University System. My own reading is that they appear be very similar in that their "sphere of influence" (to appropriate the phrase employed by another) seems limited to education. Uac1530 states that graduates of the ten institutions comprising the Concordia University System "form the bulk of the teachers of the USA's largest protestant school system". With over 180 undergraduate programs, over 3,500 foreign students, and alumni recognized on the world stage in the areas of politics, literature, music, science and, yes, education, I would argue that the sphere of influence of Concordia in Montreal is somewhat greater. As for Concordia University, River Forest or CURF- as, it would seem, it is commonly known - I've yet to hear an arguement that it doesn't deserve a place in the Wikipedia. --Victoriagirl 19:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not questioning the value of the Concordia University System. Infact I remember updating several of the pages on the C.U.S. schools, to provide some more information. Uac1530 is saying that the relative notability of Concordia Montreal is not sufficiently greater than any single school in the Concordia University System to be primary target. I'm just asking what grounds s/he is using to make such an argument. Age or time using the name doesn't seem to be a singular deciding factor, since we have several articles where a newer item is primary. And as Uac1530 is arguing about the entire C.U.S. vs. a single Concordia, I'd like to point out that Concordia University System does not point to a DAB page. I wouldn't think that Concordia University should point to Concordia University System either.132.205.44.127 23:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I guess I see DAB pages at both ends, to avoid confusion or chauvinism in a work of reference, and especially because an objective comparison between the value/notability (and so on) of the C.U.S. vs. Mtl Concordia, has not been made. Once more, my point is about how an institution with a common name shared by institutions in a similar category, needs a DAB page to enable those who come to Wikipedia for the first time, to find what they need quickly. -- Denstat 16:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to point out, once again, for the Concordia Montreal people who are all getting defensive about their University, that the issue here is not if Concordia Montreal is the largest, or the most notable/infamous/famous/noteworthy, but if Concordia Montreal is so notable/infamous/famous/noteworthy in the English-speaking world that Wikipedia serves that Concordia University that it should be the main page rather than the main page being a disambiguation.

My point is not and has never been the the Concordia University system in the USA is bigger, more important, better, whatever than Concordia Montreal, it's that Concordia Montreal is not comparable to a Harvard, Cambridge, Cornell, etc., and that the fair and proper thing would be to have a disambiguation, especially in light of their longer history with the name Concordia.

Have at it.

--Uac1530 20:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Not everyone here is a Concordia student. I did list this under Requests for Comment. Ardenn 22:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Per my comments before, Concordia University is notable enough to warrant a direct link, with a disambiguation header. Objective evidence cited: LexisNexis news items [5], PubMed citations[6], and Google Scholar searches on "Concordia" [7]. All of these are overwhelmed by reference to the Montreal school. A direct to the dab page would be decidedly unfair. And I've never gone to any Concordia University -- Samir धर्म 22:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: Thus far, we know only one person participating in this discussion to have attended Montreal's Concordia University - and he or she chose not to vote citing "conflict of interest". Again, the great number of international students, internationally recognized alumni, foreign-born professors and, I'm sorry to say, a few sad events, have all contributed to giving Montreal's Concordia a far greater profile in the English-speaking world. I think it irrelevant that the various institutions that make up the Concordia University System have held the name longer - Montreal, France was named several centuries before Montreal, Quebec. Are we now going to ask for a disambiguation? For the record, I'm a student at McGill - Concordia's rival.--Victoriagirl 23:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
  • That is a strange position to take. Wikipedia doesn't function that way, otherwise a very large number of articles would end up with a DAB page as primary. This clearly doesn't happen. Think about all the pages with a template:otheruses at the top of the article. 70.51.9.232 07:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)