Talk:Jean Joseph Marie Amiot/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: L'OrfeoGreco (talk · contribs) 11:51, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I would like to start by congratulating all the contributors for working on such an important topic. Jean Joseph Marie Amiot, the first translator of Sun Tzu's iconic The Art of War certainly deserves all due attention.

A quick check via earwig's copyvio showed no signs of copyright ingringement. That is a good start.

However, upon reading the article, I came across a series of problems pertaining to its Structure, Neutrality (one minor problem) and, most importantly, to its Language. More specifically, the narration is often surprising, with information suddenly appearing without first having been prepared. As for the language, the text's flow is fragmented, the speech going from full stop to full stop without commas, conjunctions or semicolons. Furthermore, there are some syntax and grammar problems that have to be fixed.

Language

Let us start with the Language, which is what a reader will first observe. Here are a few examples that I selected, and my respective comments:

• "He left France in 1749, accompanied by Chinese Jesuits Paul Liu and Stanislas Kang, who were sent to study in France and were returning to their home country."

The sentence seems to be grammatically ambiguous, if not erroneous. I would suggest something like:

"He left France in 1749, accompanied by Chinese Jesuits Paul Liu and Stanislas Kang, who had been sent to study in France and were returning to their home country.

 Done

• "The society was abolished in France two years later, confirmed by King Louis XV."

That is an awkward way of expressing it, and probably a wrong one. I would suggest "The society was abolished in France two years later, by order of the King, Louis XV."

 Done

• "The final blow, however, would be Pope Clement XIV's brief, Dominus ac Redemptor. The brief reached the French Jesuits in China on September 22, 1775. A German Carmelite named Joseph de Sainte-Thérèse brought the legal brief to the Jesuits."

This is an example that clearly illustrates the problem with the speech flow, for, in this instance, the repetition of the word "brief" is combined with an ambiguity concerning what happened first and what ensued, who did what and so on. The wording has to be altered so as for the text to be more concise and clear; try specifying when the brief was issued from the start and then unify the sentences. For example:

The final blow, however, would be Pope Clement XIV's brief, Dominus ac Redemptor, issued on the - of -, 17--. The brief reached the French Jesuits in China on September 22, 1775, via a German Carmelite named Joseph de Sainte-Thérèse.

 Done as The final blow, however, would be Pope Clement XIV's brief, Dominus ac Redemptor, issued on July 21, 1773. The brief reached the French Jesuits in China on September 22, 1775[4] via a German Carmelite named Joseph de Sainte-Thérèse. I intended to add a description of what the brief itself is about, as the current text doesn't exactly describe why the papal brief marks the end of the Jesuits at that time.

• "Wishing to keep the French mission alive, King Louis XVI sent financial aid to the mission and appointed François Bourgeois as the administrator of the French mission."

Here again, the repetition of the word "mission" is interfering with the flow. Try:

"Wishing to keep the French mission alive, King Louis XVI sent them financial aid and appointed François Bourgeois as the group'sadministrator."

 Done

• "Amiot went to pray at the Jesuit cemetery outside the city walls when the weather permitted."

Using the simple past tense is an error here, for its use obscures the time and the frequency with which Amiot prayed. Was it something he regularly did? Then try:

"Amiot would often pray at the Jesuit cemetery outside the city walls when the weather permitted"

 Done

• "In 1772 Amiot's translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War was published. It includes a translation of the Yongzheng Emperor's Ten Precepts. This translation is the first translation of The Art of War in the West. The next translation of the work in a Western language would not be made until Everard Ferguson Calthrop published his translation of the work in English in 1905. Amiot sent his translation of Li Guangdi's Guyue Jingzhuan (古樂經傳) to Paris in 1754. He later acknowledged that the translation contained errors and was incomplete. The translation was referenced by Jean-Philippe Rameau it in his treatises"

The word "translation" repeated 8 times in 7 consecutive sentences separated by full stops. Here we have the same problems of flow as previously stated.

• The "Work" section is full of the word "Amiot". I counted 11 repetitions in 5 small paragraphs; a surname cannot be repeated that many times in a small text, for it makes the text hard to follow; it ought to be interchanged with something like "the writer", "the Jesuit", "he", "himself +gerund" etc.

I have replaced several instances of the surname.

• "In 1777, he sent a Sheng, which contributed to the development of the harmonica in Europe."

Since the Sheng itself cannot contribute to anything, for it is an inanimate object, I suspect what is meant here is that Amiot himself contributed to the development of the harmonica. So:

"In 1777, he sent a Sheng, thus contributing to the development of the harmonica in Europe."

 Done

Neutrality

Mainly one sentence has problems of this sort:

• "He celebrated Mass for the deceased king and visited the tombs of the Jesuits. He died on that same night."

This sentence is problematic because Louis XVI's and Amiot's deaths are metaphysically linked by the sentence's writer via insinuation, but still in a clear way. The dramatic monolithic sentence "He died the same night" makes it seem as if he willed himself to die because the King died. To avoid such a conclusion, a better wording is required, something of the sort "At that night, he celebrated Mass for the deceased king. Subsequently, he visited the tombs of the Jesuits [+WHY did he visit the tombs]. Amiot died on the - of - 17-- "

This way, the text reports, it does not claim that something [mysterious] happened.

 Done: changed this to On October 8, 1793, the news of King Louis XVI's death reached Amiot. He celebrated Mass for the deceased king. He died on the night of October 8 or 9, 1793. The part about visiting the tombs has been removed.

(Thank you for all your changes fellow Wikipedian). Here I have to intervene once more, and suggest:

"On October 8, 1793, the news of King Louis XVI's death reached Amiot, who celebrated Mass for the deceased monarch. Amiot himself died on the same night of October 8 or on the following day, October 9, 1793.

This wording is a bit more elaborate. As for the Jesuits' tombs part, I would suggest incorporating it, on the condition that the reason or the context of the visit is given by some source.L'Orfeo^{Son io} 13:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Incorporated the new suggestions. The part about visiting the tombs is mentioned in Hermans (2019) but the why is not, that was my rationale of removing it in the end. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 13:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

I see... Well, it is a fact pertaining to his last day, but if it is to be included, it needs fit with the other text, I gather. L'Orfeo^{Son io} 17:42, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Structure

The article's narration has a series of problems.

• For a start, some paragraphs are in sections where they fit not, say, for example, "Amiot could play the harpsichord and the flute... Berkeley has doubted the veracity of this story".

This paragraph should not be a part of "Works", since his playing music has nothing to do with his literary and other written "Works". It should be part of a different section ("Hobbies", "Other pastimes" or sth like that?).

Moved this to a section titled "Music".

Just fine! L'Orfeo^{Son io} 17:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• "Later life and death"

This section is severely problematic. Its first paragraph, "Amiot went to pray... on July 29, 1792." does not fit with the text that follows, nor is it explained later on. It is as if some info was crammed in there with no obvious reasoning behind the act. In fact, the sentences themselves make no sense whatsoever, and this is both due to the language AND due to their not having been textually prepared before being placed there.

Removed.

Then comes the "When George McCartney's embassy arrived at Beijing, Amiot was too ill to meet him." sentence. Unfortunately, the "McCartney" name has not been mentioned before, and thus the reader cannot deduce what the meaning of this evocation is. Was McCartney informed of Amiot's work and did he mean to meet with him specifically? We know not. Was this story important to McCartney's or Amiot's lives? We know not. Was it something that further influenced the ill Amiot's health we know not. All this info is required for the reader to understand what is going on with McCartney.

I expanded on what the Maccartney embassy is and Amiot's involvement with the embassy. Is this better now? Pinging for review: @L'OrfeoGreco: —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 03:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Much better! Just a few points: The spelling of Macartney varies in the text, it should always be "Macartney". And for the repetition of the surname, I think:

"In 1792, Britain sent a diplomatic mission to China, led by George Macartney. The goals of the mission were to open new trading ports with China and establish a permanent mission there. Macartney had wished to meet Amiot in Beijing. However, he was too ill to meet with the ambassador and, instead, sent him a portrait of himself and a letter, which was delivered on October 3. He gave his advice to Macartney and suggested that he leave China."

would do. On this occasion, I would like to kindly ask for a general cut on repetitions (see the "translation" and "Amiot" repetitions), for I see that in some occasions they have not been reduced significantly. If for any reason you feel you would require some help with the rephrasing of the repeated words, I would be most glad to help, but only after the review process has reached a final stage. L'Orfeo^{Son io} 13:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

@L'OrfeoGreco I have cut down some more repetitions as suggested above. Are there any that I have missed? —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 15:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Your efforts are commendable! As for the repetitions, my rule of thumb is that "a surname, placename, title of work etc, should not be repeated in the following sentence, and not more than 1-2 times in the same paragraph."

But, in any case, here are all the specific suggestions (+narration comments):

• Intro, "he aspired to serve in an overseas mission. He was assigned a mission in China and left France in 1749."

Suggestion: ""he aspired to serve in an overseas mission.Eventually, he was assigned a mission in China and left France in 1749."

This way, the repetition of the "mission" is "blunted".

• Intro, "His translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War is the first translation of the work into a Western language."

Suggestion:"His translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War is the first rendition of the work into a Western language."

• (not a repetition, a matter of 'narration) Early life, "His brother Pierre-Jules-Roch Amiot would go on to become the lieutenant-general of the admiralty of Toulon. His sister, Marguerite-Claire was an Ursuline sister."

Suggestion: "His brother Pierre-Jules-Roch Amiot would go on to become the lieutenant-general of the admiralty of Toulon and his sister, Marguerite-Claire was an Ursuline sister."

• (not a repetition, a matter of narration) Early life, "After finishing his studies in philosophy and theology at the Jesuit seminary in Toulon, Amiot entered the novitiate of the Society of Jesus in Avignon on September 27, 1737. He remained a novice for two years."

Suggestion: "After finishing his studies in philosophy and theology at the Jesuit seminary in Toulon, Amiot entered the novitiate of the Society of Jesus in Avignon on September 27, 1737; he remained a novice for two years.

• (repetition of "mission" and "China") Arrival at China, "Amiot requested Franz Retz, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus at that time, to serve in an overseas mission. He was given a mission to China. In a letter to his brother, he had expressed his desire to serve in a mission to China."

Suggestion: "Amiot requested Franz Retz, the Superior General of the Society of Jesus at that time, to serve in an overseas mission, and was eventually sent to China. He had expressed his desire to serve in a mission to the Asiatic Empire in the past, in a letter to his brother.

• (repetition of "arrived") Arrival at China, "On March 28, 1751, they left Macau for Guangzhou and arrived five days later. They left Canton on June 2, and arrived at Beijing on August 22."

Suggestion: "On March 28, 1751, they left Macau for Guangzhou and arrived five days later. They left Canton on June 2, and reached Beijing on August 22.

• (repetition of "Chinese") Arrival at China, "Alongside this, he studied the Chinese language. He adopted the Chinese name Qian Deming (錢德明) and wore Chinese clothing in order to adapt himself to Chinese culture."

Suggestion: "Alongside this, he studied the Chinese language. He adopted the Chinese name Qian Deming (錢德明) and wore Chinese clothing in order to adapt himself to the culture of China."

• (repetition of "Amiot") Arrival at China, "In 1754, Amiot made a young Chinese man by the name of Yang Ya-Ko-Pe his assistant. Amiot instructed him in the European manner."

Suggestion: "In 1754, Amiot made a young Chinese man by the name of Yang Ya-Ko-Pe his assistant and instructed him in the European manner.

• (repetition of "brief") Suppression of the Jesuits, "The brief reached the French Jesuits in China on September 22, 1775 via a German Carmelite named Joseph de Sainte-Thérèse. The Jesuits of Beijing surrendered to the brief, resigned from the Society of Jesus and became secular priests."

Suggestion: "The brief reached the French Jesuits in China on September 22, 1775 via a German Carmelite named Joseph de Sainte-Thérèse. The Jesuits of Beijing eventually surrendered to it, they,, resigned from the Society of Jesus and became secular priests.

• (repetition of "Bourgeois") Suppression of the Jesuits, "Amiot was named as Bourgeois' replacement in the event of Bourgeois' absence."

Suggestion: "Amiot was named as Bourgeois' replacement in the event of his absence.

• (repetition of "China" and "mission") Later life and death, "In 1792, Britain sent a diplomatic mission to China led by George Macartney. The goals of the mission were to open new trading ports with China and establish a permanent mission there."

Suggestion: "In 1792, Britain sent a diplomatic mission to China led by George Macartney. The goals of the "delegation" were to open new trading ports with "the country" and establish a permanent "diplomatic corps" there.

• IMPORTANT NOTE: You have to add the info about when Amiot first fell ill. Also, repetition of "Macartney". Later life and death, "Macartney had wished to meet Amiot in Beijing. However, he was too ill to meet Macartney."

Suggestion (Macartney truly was ambassador of the British in China): "Macartney had wished to meet Amiot in Beijing. However, he was too ill to meet with the British ambassador."

• (narration matter) Works, "Amiot could speak in Manchu, the language of the emperor. He wrote a Manchu-French dictionary, which was published from 1789 to 1790 with the help of Bertin. Prince Hongwu, a member of the Qing imperial family, praised the dictionary."

Suggestion: "Amiot could speak in Manchu, the language of the emperor; he wrote a Manchu-French dictionary, which was published from 1789 to 1790 with the help of Bertin; Prince Hongwu, a member of the Qing imperial family, praised the dictionary.

• (narration matter) Works, "He made a record of the weather in Beijing, which was published by Charles Messier in 1774. He tried to build a hot air balloon, but he was discouraged by Prince Hongwu, for fear of disseminating the discovery."

Suggestion: "For example, he made a record of the weather in Beijing, which was published by Charles Messier in 1774, and he also tried to build a hot air balloon, but [No "he"] was discouraged by Prince Hongwu, for fear of disseminating the discovery."

• (narration matter) Works, "He made a record of the weather in Beijing, which was published by Charles Messier in 1774. He tried to build a hot air balloon, but he was discouraged by Prince Hongwu, for fear of disseminating the discovery."

Suggestion: "For example, he made a record of the weather in Beijing, which was published by Charles Messier in 1774, and he also tried to build a hot air balloon, but [No "he"] was discouraged by Prince Hongwu, for fear of disseminating the discovery."

• (narration matter) Music, "These attempts were not successful.When he asked the Chinese musicians for their opinions[...]"

Suggestion: "These attempts, however, were not successful; when he asked the Chinese musicians for their opinions[...]"

• (narration matter) Music, "Amiot sent his translation of Li Guangdi's Guyue Jingzhuan (古樂經傳), a treatise on Chinese music, to Paris in 1754. He later acknowledged that it contained errors and was incomplete."

Suggestion: "Amiot sent his translation of Li Guangdi's Guyue Jingzhuan (古樂經傳), a treatise on Chinese music, to Paris in 1754'; he later acknowledged that it contained errors and was incomplete."

Take your time, it is going fine! L'Orfeo^{Son io} 18:48, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Last but not least, I think the "Notes" should become "References" and the "References" become "Sources", but that is not so important.

Modified this so that the citations are under the "citations" section, while the sources associated with the citations are under the "sources" section. Both are under the "References" section, which leaves room for a separate notes section for explanatory footnotes.

Well done! L'Orfeo^{Son io} 17:43, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Substantiation

We'll continue with the most important matter of substantiation; take your time, no need to rush, check it when you can.
For a start, a comment on the sources: For Camille de Rochemonteix, a concern is that the source is over 100 years old and so I thought that it could have missed on new findings? I'd like the contributors' opinions. For Louis Pfister my thoughts are the same. Hermans 2019, for example, is more modern. However, that's not to say that the other sources have to be removed! I just would like to hear what the contributors have to say on this.

For my review of the article's substantiation, I have put an emphasis on veracity, first checking whether everything written is included in the respective sources and, in some cases, in other works. Moreover, I performed "spot-check of a sample of the sources in the article to verify that" the pages given are correct.

My comments are listed bellow:

• Access levels

It would be nice if you added url-access tags to every source that has a matching tag (say "free access", or "login required", etc).

• The mandate of heaven

Note: Hermans is the writer of a chapter while Adam Parr is the main author, and this should be stated at the "Sources". (Add a parameter like |editor= if Parr was the editor, etc)

Corrected

Nice! L'Orfeo^{Son io} 22:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Early life

The section's citations are fine, I checked every one of them for inclusion in the source and correct page.

• Arrival at China

Spot-checked most of the citations, no problems found

• Suppression of the Jesuits

Spot-checked adequate portion of the citations, no problems found

• Later life and death

No access to Peyrefitte 1992. I checked whether Mcartney and the sort are included in the book, and they are, so I suggest you add a link via which access can actually be gained (Google Books maybe?). If you don't find one, then that's just how it is. Like many sources, this will not be readily accessible. (Do not remove it for this reason only!)

Yeah, it's unfortunate. This book was available for IA users to borrow for a while, though using the search feature one can still read some of the pages. Looking up "Amiot" will bring up most of the pages I used.

All good! L'Orfeo^{Son io} 09:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• Works

For Dobson, no link is given, but I have found correlation of what is written and the source. For the page I cannot be entirely sure.

Spot-checked the rest, all clear.

You can access that with a Wikipedia library account, however it looks like you aren't eligible to access that currently. If it's necessary, I can email you the relevant excerpts of sources that I accessed via the library.

@Fehufangą, my Greek Wikipedia account is of more than 2,800 edits, so I do have access to the Wikipedia Library, but knew not I could find the works there. Great! Thank you for informing me. L'Orfeo^{Son io} 22:21, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

• Music

Spot-checked the sources with given links. All fine.

Review result

All of the matters expressed above were dealt with. I made some final touch changes; the contributor(s) can check them and express their objections/comments before I proceed with my final decision. Let's go through the criteria:

1st Criterion: Well-written

a. Language

All of the problems detected were fixed.

b. Manual of Style

Lead and other sections just fine. The article's structure presents no abnormal features.

2nd Criterion: Verifiable

a. List of all references included

Yes.

b. Reliable sources are cited inline

Yes.

c. No original research

None.

d. No copyright violations

None.

3rd Criterion: Broad in its coverage

a. Main aspects addressed

Based on what is known of the person's life, most of the important matters are covered.

b. No out-of-focus text

None.

4th Criterion: Neutral

Yes.

5th Criterion: Stable

No edit warring so Yes.

6th Criterion: Illustrated

a. Media are of clearly stated copyright statuses

Yes.

b. Media are relevant

Yes.

Result

For the aforementioned reasons, I consider the article eligible for promotion to the GA status. I will now wait for the last comments by the contributor(s) on possible final touch changes. L'Orfeo^{Son io} 10:21, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@L'OrfeoGreco I am okay with the final changes you've made. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 12:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations, then! I conclude the review; article promoted to GA. L'Orfeo^{Son io} 22:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@L'OrfeoGreco It was great working with you. Thank you for the very in-depth review and corrections. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 22:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.