Talk:Tuition fees in the United Kingdom/GA2

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2011 (UTC) ~~Article links to four disamb pages. Please disambiguate these links: John Browne, John Denham, Lee Scott, and National Union of Students.~~ External links check out.[reply]

Hi, thanks for letting me know, have fixed all the disambiguations Notjamesbond (talk) 00:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
Writing needs more clarity and conciseness (see examples and suggestions below):

"In May 1996 Conservative Prime Minister John Major commissioned an inquiry led by Sir Ron Dearing to make recommendations into the future of funding of higher education in Britain and how it should develop over the next 20 years.[2]" -> "In May 1996, Conservative Prime Minister John Major commissioned an inquiry, led by Sir Ron Dearing, into the future funding of British higher education over the next 20 years.[2]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"On 23 July 1997 the Dearing Report was published and made a total of 93 recommendations.[13]" -> "On 23 July 1997, the Dearing Report made a total of 93 recommendations.[13]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"With its brief of looking into funding over the next 20 years it estimated additional funding of almost £2billion would be needed over this period to fund an expansion of student numbers, provide more support for part-time students and to ensure an adequate infrastructure for higher education.[13]" -> "It estimated additional funding of almost £2billion would be needed over the next 20 years to expand student enrollment, to provide more support for part-time students and to ensure an adequate infrastructure for higher education.[13]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please insert a comma after "publication of the report".
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"He also announced that the student grant of £1710 would be abolished and replaced by student loans.[2]" - Please explain who gets the grant. E.g., "He also announced that the government grant of £1710 provided to all public university students would be replaced by student loans.[2]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"In its formal response to the Dearing Report, the government in its paper 'Higher Education in the 21st Century' stated "The Government" ->"The government issued a response entitled "Higher Education in the 21st Centry" to the Dearing Report. It stated, "The Government
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"passed into law" -> "enacted"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The costs for students were means tested dependent on the amount of money their families earned." - unclear how long this was true. Are you stating this as a historic fact or as a recommendation in the Dearing Report?
Have changed the wording on this Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Maintenance grants for living expenses would be replaced with loans from 1999-2000 and" -> "Starting with 1999-2000, maiance grants for living expenses would be replaced with loans and"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cubie -> Cubie Report
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The estimated cost of the recommendations were set at £71 million to the Scottish government." -> "The estimated cost to the Scottish government of the recommendations were set at £71 million."
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"As a result of the changes the Scottish executive now said that the scheme would cost an approximate £50 million.[3]" -> "With such changes, the Scottish executive estimated that the scheme would cost £50 million.[3]" (all estimates are approximate, so don't say approximate; avoid "now" when you mean then)
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

avoid "from 2006-2007" because you confuse the reader as to when the policy goes into effect vs. when the money is borrowed. Explain the differences between undergraduate and graduate financial aid policies.
I'll have to think about this one Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" In the summer of 2007 the Scottish government announced plans to scrap the graduate endowment altogether in plans announced under the 'Graduate Endowment Abolition (Scotland) Bill'." ->" In the summer of 2007, the Scottish government proposed the 'Graduate Endowment Abolition (Scotland) Bill' that would scrap the graduate endowment altogether."
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Even then, the assembly could only vary those issues which had been devolved to them. In the case of education this was one of those devolved areas with the assembly also having responsibility for setting and monitoring school standards, the content of the national curriculum and the training and supply of teachers.[5]" ->"The assembly could vary specified devolved issues including setting and monitoring school standards, the content of the national curriculum and the training and supply of teachers.[5]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

only one "although" per sentence, please: "The cap on the amount of tuition fees that universities could charge is the same in Wales as it is in England although the Welsh Assembly up until 2010-11 gave all Welsh students studying in Wales a grant of £1890 towards their fees although this was abolished from 2010-11.[6]"->"The cap on the amount of tuition fees that universities could charge is the same in Wales as it is in England although the Welsh Assembly up until 2010-11 gave all Welsh students studying in Wales a grant of £1890 towards their fees. The grant was abolished effective with the 2010-11 school year.[6]"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

" means tested grant" - hyphenate: means-tested grant
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Under the MOS, use full name at first mention, then just the last name.
done, I think Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"and the promise to write off all student debt after 25 years.[22]" - does this mean 25 years after each student graduates or 25 years after the loan program started?
Have had to search hard to find this but have now and it is referenced. Debt is written off 25 years after the first April following graduation Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Some plans in the United States subsidize people who join low-income or public interest professions by treating each set of graduates as a group; people pay a percentage of their income and keep on paying until the entire amount for the group is paid. If a class of graduates has a large number of large wage earners, do they stop paying when their personal debt is paid back, or do they keep on paying for 25 years, or do they stop paying when the entire debt of the class is paid back (before year 25)?

"Universities meanwhile had claimed that if the legislation introducing variable fees failed then they would be facing a £10 billion black hole that would only grow with Universities UK having asked the government for the extra £10 billion in it's submission for the comprehensive spending review.[24]" - reword, perhaps use "revenue shortfall" Was it unlikely that the £10 billion would be available in the budget? You imply that it was there for the asking. How do you reconcile the £10 billion figure with the £1.4 billion figure in the next sentence?
have reworded and updated, also sourced the original submission for the spending review by Universities UK Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"affect students living in Scotland.[21]" - do you mean students studying in Scotland?
Students living and studying in Scotland, have updated Notjamesbond (talk) 00 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"It meant that from 2006-07 institutions in England could charge new students variable fees of up to £3000."->"Under the Act, universities in England could charge variable fees of up to £3000 on students matriculating in 2006-07 or later." I don't understand exactly what "from" means in your sentence.
done, have updated Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

add comma between "report published in 2009" and "Universities"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is Universities UK an "it" or a "they"?
it, have updated Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

add comma between "the launch" and "Mandelson said"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

add comma between " the review" and "National Union"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Also rejected was the idea of charging a levy on universities who set fees at above £6,000 saying that this would create an incentive for universities to keep fees low.[38]" - please rewrite. Who rejected and who said?
donehave taken this bit out for now Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"On 9 December 2010 MPs voted to back the motion which would allow the cap on tuition fees to rise by 323 to 302 giving the Government a Commons majority of 21.[46]"->"On 9 December 2010, MPs approved raising the cap on tuition fees by a 323 to 302 vote.[46] "
done Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
Bear in mind that readers (such as me) will come from outside Britain. Explain that we are discussing public (state-supported) universities as the scope of the controversy.

"so that they could compete more on the global stage." At some point, please discuss how this affect foreign students vis a vis British students. Did foreign students pay full costs when attending public universities? Do British universities draw students from throughout the Commonwealth, and what other institutions/countries compete for these students?

Do students from other EU or Commonwealth countries have any right to attend university in the UK? How are foreign students funded if they study in the UK?
Okay have hopefully addressed this now, have added a footnote on funding and have also elaborated on the 'global stage' comment Notjamesbond (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, a major incentive for joining the military is university tuition benefits after leaving the service. Are there any special provisions for veterans, or do they pay the same tuition fees as everyone else?

You might want to state that it is the UK government that makes the loans. (In the United States, many of the loans are from banks, with a federal government guarantee against possible default.)

Explain what graduate endowment means......

have explained this, or at least tried to Notjamesbond (talk) 00:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
I sense that the author is a bit biased against tuition fees.
I'm suprised at this, I've tried to make it as balanced as possible. I'm not the only author although I have contributed a lot to it. My only aim was to try to update the article so that it is clear what the evolution of tuition fees in the UK has been. I actually have no strong feelings either way. Am willing to make edits on sections that may concern Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I assume your good faith in balancing the article. Have there been any scholarly studies conducted on the impact of tuition fees? For example, in the United States people track over time the median family income of college freshmen, the total number of students applying for admission, and whether the annual cost of attending college increases faster than the rate of inflation. In Britain, one could also track the percentage of total tuition fees as a percentage of total higher education spending, for each year.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
I question whether the fair use rationale for the Russell Group logo is appropriate.
Yes I agree, have removed this Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

I am placing the article on hold. As you can see, it needs some work, particularly to strive for clarity of prose. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, have updated as much as I can for now will aim to focus on the 'Broad in it's coverage' comments later Notjamesbond (talk) 00:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We are all volunteers. Thank you for your hard work. Racepacket (talk) 04:35, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

4 January reading

change "Scottish students studying elsewhere in the United Kingdom would still be eligible for fees" ->"Scottish students studying elsewhere in the United Kingdom would still be required to pay fees" ?

done Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

change "In order to qualify as a 'Scottish student' and be eligible for free tuition fees" -> " In order to qualify as a 'Scottish student' and be exempted from paying tuition fees"

done Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

change "Students would also be eligible if they were classed as 'ordinarily resident' in the country on the first day of their course. This meant that those students who had moved to Scotland for a reason other than study would be also be eligible." -> "Students would also be exempt if they were classed as 'ordinarily resident' in the country on the first day of their course. This meant that those students who had moved to Scotland for a reason other than study would be also be exempt." The point is that Scotish students do not pay fees if they study in Scotland.

done Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May I suggest that explanatory footnotes be separated from reference footnotes? For example, the note about graduate endowment could be prefaced with <ref group="note"> and then at the bottom of the article add:==Notes==<references group="note"/> The reference footnotes would continue to use normal<ref> tags. This alerts the reader that the special footnotes are explanatory, not just references.

done Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"given that Labour had previously introduced tuition fees and abolished student grants.[3]" - was this actually implemented, or did Labour just propose it without implementing it? The new text implied implementation in the past. If so, should you say when this happened in the past?

done and reworded to make clearer Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"the governments decision to make deep cuts in university funding" - should be "government's". Is there any way to quantify this claim in terms of the total reduction in government funding of university education? Racepacket (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

no real way to quantify without going into the debate on public sector spending which is happening in the UK. Denham made the comments speaking against the proposals in the House of commons Notjamesbond (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

6 January reading

Please explain status after the House of Commons vote. Is a vote pending in the House of Lords?

no vote pending it has already gone through and was passed - section 4.4 Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please watch spaces between numbers and the word "million." Ideally, you should use a non-breaking space ( ) to separate those.
have added spaces Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You need to fix "billion" as well. Racepacket (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Notjamesbond (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Article is still not clear on who loans the money to the students - is it a bank, is it the school, or is it the government?

Student Loans Company on behalf of government. have added Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please describe which set of institutions charge tuition fees - Is it just Universities for both undergraduate and graduate students? Does it apply to vocational schools?
universities this should be covered in section 3
I really can't find it. Could you help the reader by describing the scope of the policy? Does it exclude vocational institutes? Racepacket (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any special provisions for military service?
No none at all Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are tuition fees paid every semester for undergraduates but just at graduation for graduate students? Please make clear when they are assessed.
tried to make clearer, tuition fees are annual they are currently paid back when earnings reach £15k but following the Browne recommendations will begin to be paid back when earnings reach £21k Notjamesbond (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand my question. Suppose I attend Oxford from fall 2011 to spring 2014, and my parents earn £36k, wouldn't my family have to write checks along the way? (once every semester?) If I were an Oxford PhD student, would I write the checks along the way or would I just pay a graduation fee at the end? The size of my loan would depend on the difference between Oxford's tution levels in 2011-2014 vs. my payments. Perhaps the background could explain this.
Okay, have tried to cover this within the 'Higher Education Act 2004' section. Essentially all fees would be covered by the student loans company and the family of the student would have to pay nothing at all up front. Notjamesbond (talk) 13:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When the Scotish Parliament setting the lower cap, who paid for that decision: the Scotish taxpayers or UK taxpayers as a whole? Explain whether these policy decisions have budget implications in just Soctland and Wales or throughout the UK.
Very complicated area this, it is the Scottish Executive that pays but the parliament is heavily subsidised by the UK parliament and the Scottish parliament has limited tax raising powers. It could be argued strongly that free tuition fees in Scotland are funded by English tax payers. This wasn't really a line I wanted to go down though Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fine. Use your own edtorial judgment. Racepacket (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
When a loan is forgiven (after 25 years) does it affect the budget for the year of forgiveness or the year the loan was first made? If the former, what happens if there is insufficient money available to forgive the loan -- is it too late to change the policy in that future year?
The loan just gets written off and the government absorb the cost. I don't know the detail on this Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If fewer loan are issued than were projected due to unexpectedly affluent families, who keeps the excess money - the universities or the government?
The universities would only lose out if there was a reduction in student numbers. If the loans were reducing because people were paying upfront themselves then the universities would be quite happy with that Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In Government Response section, change "Brownes" to "Browne's"
done Notjamesbond (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Raising the point at which tuition fees are paid back from £15,000 to £21,000 a year[" - should this be "loans"?
have amended Notjamesbond (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's try to wrap this up. Racepacket (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Will try to tackle the red bits in a week or so as am off on hols now and I have been told in no uncertain terms that wikipedia is not allowed :p Notjamesbond (talk) 23:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Am back, have made the updates Notjamesbond (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome back. Please address the one remaining point in red above. Racepacket (talk) 20:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all of your hard work. Congratulations. 18:42, 22 January 2011 (UTC)