User talk:Beyond My Ken: Difference between revisions
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<center><big>'''''Memo to self:'''''</big></center> |
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==Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WU LYF== |
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You are invited to join the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WU LYF]]. {{#if:|{{{more}}}}} [[User:Robman94|Robman94]] ([[User talk:Robman94|talk]]) 18:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC) <small>(Using {{[[Template:pls|pls]]}})</small> |
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== Thank you for your edits and instruction == |
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First I want to state again my appreciation and instruction. Second, for your encouragement. |
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As for further posting, I will stay my hand and only look for opportunities to alter perceptions related to ''notability,'' namely how I might demonstrate the store's immediate influence and its lasting influence. |
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This is something I'm especially attuned to since I was introduced to the store by its sole remaining partner, Marty Freedman, who is 77-years old, and not particularly healthy. I was introduced to him by a mutual friend who thought Marty had a story to tell. As I'm a writer—advertising—and I also wrote a book ''Kiss & Sell: Writing for Advertising'' they thought I might be interested in telling it. However, I've a contract to write a book on the future of advertising and so told them I just didn't have the time. However, I have been thinking of turning my Master's thesis on the idea of "New York versus the real New York" into an essay-length book, I thought encouraging more people to remember Limbo and also to introduce Limbo to people unaware of the importance as a cultural "fixture" certainly on the level of Max's Kansas City. |
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So that the genesis of my involvement. I believe the City in general and the East Village in particular is changing so quickly, I can too easily imagine its 60s/Hippie era being forgotten. (Or delegated to the Stage as in ''HAIR.'' This would be a shame for 101 reasons, but I'll end with just the idea that the loss of this memory would make it easier for developers and others intent on making the City a kind of movie backlot to reinvent its past to suit their purposes. |
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Finally, Marty gave me an image of the pointing hand logo, which I'd like to add and also a couple of old clippings from a collection of very tattered newspaper and magazine articles. He owns the hand trademark and I think the last picture of limbo was shot in the late 60s and so probably could be used without fear of someone claiming unfair use. |
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In closing, I look forward to your thoughts. |
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Robert--[[User:Bosalino|Bosalino]] ([[User talk:Bosalino|talk]]) 02:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Sorry not to respond last night - I pulled a muscle playing softball and was taking it easy.<p>Let's take the two cases one by one:<p>If Marty is the copyright holder of the pointing hand logo, all you need to do is contact OTRS either here or on Commons (I'd recommend the Commons, but it's up to you) to verify the copyright and get the proper release from Marty, and you're set. Go to [[WP:OTRS]] here or "Commons:OTRS" on Commons to get that started.<p>As for the newspaper clippings, they will all still be in copyright. The concept of "fair use" is that one can use copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright owner for limited purposes, such as quoting short passages in a review. Wikipedia's [[WP:NFCC]] rules are even stricter than that, so you might want to look them over. Basically, they require that the fair use of an image be related to a discussion in the article or so enhance the value of the article that their use is justified. Also, it is customary, although apparently not specifically spelled out in policy, to allow fair use of an image which identifies the subject of the article, as in a movie poster or a book cover. I woul think that a photograph of the store at the time woul qualify for that.<p>So if I were you, I'd pick out the one newspaper image that best fulfills one or more of those requirements and upload it here. When you're ready to do that, there are specific things you need to put in the image information, which I'll be glad to talk you through. Best, [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 18:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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I'll have a chance this weekend to see Marty and get his permission to upload the Pointing Hand logo and also a picture, like the one you describe, i.e. that identifies the store at the time. What is the best way to upload the picture and place it on the page? Thank again, for all your help. |
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--[[User:Bosalino|Bosalino]] ([[User talk:Bosalino|talk]]) 03:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:I'm a little worse for wear this evening, but I'll get back to you late Friday/early Saturday (NYC time) with step-by-step instructions. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 04:44, 13 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Military strategy - your reversion == |
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Since the original text was very vague and also unsupported by any citations, I must say I am a bit put off by your removing all my alterations without stating any reasons or offering any explanation other than "no citations". Do you honestly think the precious version is better and more accurate than what I wrote? I would love to see citations for the things i changed that I know were plain wrong and sounded like a personal opinion to me. |
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It is not very motivating if you want to improve the quality of an article and everything you write gets removed because something was not there that was missing in the first place. |
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If you truly doubt my sincerity, there are well-written Wikipedia articles supporting what I wrote, and contradicting the original text. Just check the articles for the Battle of France or the articles about the Generals I mentioned, for example. I guess you know that good citing takes time, and Wikipedia improves one step at a time. |
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So please restore my alterations, and I promise, I will add citations, when I find the time. |
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:Your edit summary indicated that the current text was "wrong", therefore your additions were contradictory to the existing text of a stable article. In that situation, you need to provide citations when your edits are challenged. Please do not re-add the new information without citations, which your edit summary indicate you were planning to add shortly anyway. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 20:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Cheers, |
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Holger <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.181.108.25|87.181.108.25]] ([[User talk:87.181.108.25|talk]]) 20:18, 11 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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==Cocktail== |
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[[File:Mitch morgan edit1.jpg|thumb|right|150px|This has nothing to do with this topic, but I had a cocktail for you and I needed to put it somewhere...]] |
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Thanks, but... bourbon with a garnish of bacon?? Bizarre. Oh well, I'll try almost anything once... Thanks again. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 03:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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*Hey, I saw you jumped in the Superbradyon fray. What a mess. How is that I stumble upon these things--single editor, ownership, COI, socks, etc? See the history of [[Clan of Xymox]], for instance. Anyway, thanks for looking into that matter. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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*Whaddayaknow--I look at that Xymox article and find another sock in the drawer. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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==Orphaned non-free image File:James Crumley photo.jpg== |
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<span style="font-size:32px; line-height:1em">'''[[Image:Ambox warning blue.svg|35px|left|⚠|link=]]'''</span> Thanks for uploading '''[[:File:James Crumley photo.jpg]]'''. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a [[WP:FU|claim of fair use]]. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see [[Wikipedia:Non-free content#Policy|our policy for non-free media]]). |
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Note that any non-free images not used in any '''articles''' will be deleted after seven days, as described in the [[wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#F5|criteria for speedy deletion]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:Di-orphaned fair use-notice --> [[User:Courcelles|Courcelles]] 04:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:The photo was orphaned when it was replaced by [[:File:JamesCrumley.jpg]], uploaded to Commons, but it's clearly a publicity shot, and is credited to the Associated Press, so it will be deleted from there soon. Given that, I've restored the original fair-use photo. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 04:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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==Ha!== |
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PFF: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABikini_variant&action=historysubmit&diff=429132919&oldid=429115051] [[User:Toddst1|Toddst1]] <small>([[User talk: Toddst1|talk]])</small> 23:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Two photos I'd like to add to replace the Trash & Vaudeville placeholder == |
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Hello My Ken, |
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I've two images, I'd like to add to the Limbo Boutique Page, to replace the trash & Vaudeville placeholder and would appreciate it if you took me through the process. |
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The first pic appeared in an article on the store, the first is a girl on the steps by the famous sign and was one of a number of photo from an article in the New York Post, Saturday, March 30, 1968. |
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The other is the hand logo that is owned by Marty Freedman and given to me with permission to use it. |
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Both are .jpgs. |
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Please let me know how to proceed. |
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Best wishes, |
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Robert--[[User:Bosalino|Bosalino]] ([[User talk:Bosalino|talk]]) 01:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Robert: OK, with the hand logo that you have permission to use, you've got to contact OTRS '''''first''''', before you upload it. Go to [[WP:OTRS]] or [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS the equivalent on Commons] and follow the instructions there.<p>About the other image, click on the "Upload file" link on the left and choose the "Other files" option near the bottom of the page. Fill in "Source filename" (the name of the image file on your computer), "Destination filename" (the name the file will have on Wikipedia or Commons, something like "Limbo exterior 1968.jpg").<p>In the "Summary" box, '''''remove all the text that is there and replace it with the text below:''''' |
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<pre> |
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{{Non-free use rationale |
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| Description = Photograph showing the exterior of "Limbo", a store which existed from 1965-1975. |
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| Source = ''[[New York Post]]'', 1968-03-30 [YOU CAN PUT THE POST ARTICLE'S NAME HERE TOO, IF YOU HAVE IT] |
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| Article = Limbo (boutique) |
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| Portion = all |
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| Low resolution = yes, the image's width is [FILL IN WIDTH OF IMAGE, SHOULD BE 300PX AND UNDER] |
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| Purpose = to identify the store which is the subject of the article |
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| Replaceability = no free images have been found which will serve this purpose, and the store no longer exists |
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| Other information = |
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}} |
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{{Non-free fair use in|Limbo (boutique)}}</pre> |
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:Once that's all done, hit the "Upload file" button at the bottom.<p>When the file has uploaded, it can now be accessed under the name "File:Limbo exterior 1968.jpg". Go to the article, and replace the Trash & Vaudeville image with your image, formatted in this way: |
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<pre>[[File:Limbo exterior 1968.jpg|thumb|right|300px|A girl sits on Limbo's steps in March 1968]]</pre> |
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:(Of course, you can change the caption or the size as you see fit.)<p>That's about it, let me know if you have any questions. Best, [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 02:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC) |
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Thank you. I'll give it a try tomorrow, when my brain is a little clear. Thank again for your time and trouble. It's much appreciated.--[[User:Bosalino|Bosalino]] ([[User talk:Bosalino|talk]]) 03:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::See your talk page. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 04:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Colony Club == |
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I don't appreciate being told I'm screwing around. And the quote is not obviously a quote the way it's formatted. If it's a copyvio it needs to come out whether or not it's indented. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 07:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:It's obviously a quote because it's '''''formatted''''' as one, with the "block<u>quote</u>" function. The indentation, smaller font size, and smaller line spacing are standard indications of being a quote, and the ref provides the source. When you remove the blockquote, you remove the indication that it's a quote, and turn it into a copyright violation, because that amount of material used without an indication that it's a quote is not allowed. Please do not do that again. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 20:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::I've now made it totally explicit that the quote is a quote. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 21:04, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::There's no smaller font size or line spacing on my screen. Perhaps that's why it appeared obvious to you but not to me. As far as I know, blockquote is the same as the HTML blockquote tag: it indents one or more paragraphs. Other attributes are browser-dependent. The 'quote' or 'quotation' templates are clearer, but yes, I see now that this is a quote; over the years the original quotation marks have been removed. Your addition of the attribution is an improvement, and takes care of plagiarism issues, but if the amount of material used results in a copyvio, just indicating it's a quote doesn't make it not a copyvio. In this case, I'm not sure if too much is used or not, so I may ask on the copyvio talk page. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 22:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::The convention in publishing is that blocked quotes, seperated from and not embedded in the regular text, do not take quote marks, as embedded quotes do. The separation and indentation is the indication that it's a quote. The removal of the "blockquote" formatting made it a copyvio '''''not''''' because of the length of the material, which should be reasonable for a quote, but because without any indication that it's a quote, text has been used word-for-word without clear attribution. (Although I suppose that could be considered '''''plagiarism''''', but plagiarism is simply one form of copyright violation. Still, no harm in asking about the length. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 22:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, I understand block quotes do not take marks. I was only trying to say that, since I do not have immediate access to the book, I looked back to the article's first edit to check if it really was a quotation, and saw the quotation there using quotation marks. If you are saying I should have suspected it was a quotation because it was formatted using blockquote, yes, in retrospect I agree I should have suspected that and not simply unindented without further research. For quotes on WP, however, there should be attribution immediately before or after the quote in the body of the article so there's no misunderstanding such as I experienced. Blocking by itself is not enough. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 23:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::So, it appears to me that with the addition of an explicit reference to a quote, we've reached an accomodation we're both OK with -- yes? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 03:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Yes. [[Template:Quote]] can also be used but the way you have it is fine. I've left a message at [[Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems]] but will leave it to others to decide if there's a copyvio issue or not. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 04:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::Oh... and I apologize for saying you were "screwing around". I didn't realize there were browsers which didn't format blockquotes in a standard way, so, of course, I didn't understand why you were doing it. (BTW, what browser is that?) [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 03:30, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Thanks for that. I didn't realize you were seeing the paragraph the way you were, either. I'm using IE 9. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 04:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::And not to push my luck, because it's a minor issue, but the reason I changed the header was because it didn't make sense to me to say the "Original Clubhouse" was part of the club's "History" but the "Second Clubhouse" was not. It seems like they should either both be subsections of History or both be equal level 2 headers. With the current setup "Original Clubhouse" appears directly above the horse and carriage picture with whitespace to its right, and the larger "Second Clubhouse" header is pushed to the right at the photo's bottom. I suspect it may look different to you. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 04:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::AH! Yes, I misconstrued your objection entirely. (People with different browsers are something like Americans and the English: divided by a common language.) I just took a quick look at the article, and it seems to me that both clubhouse headers are now equal -- is that what you're seeing also? If so, then all is well. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 04:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::::No, I see no change. Original Clubhouse is a level 3 header and Second Clubhouse is level 2 (therefore larger). [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 05:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Damn!! Good catch, my mistake, you were correct all along. I've made "Second Clubhouse" a level 3 header to put it under "History", and I've signed myself up for a course in "How to recognize common errors in Wikipedia formatting."<p>Sheesh, what can I say but that I screwed up, big time -- thanks for being persistent and following up! [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 05:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Looks better now. Sorry for any misunderstandings. I guess we both learned a little something and the article is slightly improved, so it's all good in the end. [[User:Station1|Station1]] ([[User talk:Station1|talk]]) 05:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Mariscal Estigarribia - Sand Castle == |
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Hey! Are you a beach bully? You just knocked over my Mariscal Estigarribia sandcastle, claiming I needed some sort of construction permit to build a structure in a recreational designated zone. Wikipedia needs builders not destroyers! Beach Bully :( <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.52.212.244|70.52.212.244]] ([[User talk:70.52.212.244|talk]]) 16:08, 21 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Please read [[WP:V]], [[WP:N]], [[WP:OR]], [[WP:RS]], [[WP:SYNTHESIS]], [[WP:FRINGE]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]]. Contributions which violate these policies are not allowed. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 16:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Well now, that's just a truck load of bullshit, Ken. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.52.212.244|70.52.212.244]] ([[User talk:70.52.212.244|talk]]) 02:34, 29 May 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== [[Monty Woolley]] == |
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I've noticed your edits to image layout - I'm curious, is there a technical reason, or some guideline, or is it personal taste? I initially preferred the handprint tile image being smaller, due its lower relative importance in the article. In fact, the Hollywood Walk of Fame star could be smaller too. I've seen in other encyclopedias, that images are sized in accordance with their relative importance to the subject, and the rest of the article. Thoughts? --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 23:34, 22 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Images should be presented at the size that allows them to be easily seen and comprehended by the reader - as much as is possible, we should not require the reader to click-through simply to see the content of the image (as opposed to more closely examining details). The handprint photo wasn't comprehendable at the size it was originally presented at, 225px is about the smallest it can be. The star image is at the same size for visual balance. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 00:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Okay, I understand your opinion (users shouldn't have to click through, images should be discernible, visual balance trumps relative importance), but is some WP guideline about any of those? I happen to disagree with these points expressed as rigid rules. Indeed, we [[wikilink]] articles together because without links, there would only be one, giant, multigigabyte article - my point is that readers ''like'' clicking through, and they do it ''all the time'', especially to see details in photos. |
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::Rather, in my opinion, prose is king, so pictures must sometimes take a subordinate role. Though I agree that the handprints were less easy to discern, they were not impossible, and I believe the star need not be as large as it is, visual balance be damned. Wikipedia articles are not print magazines, and we are not designers (we are editors). There are no marketability or aesthetic requirements. We don't have to impress anyone to get more page hits: we have to get the facts right and sourced, and present some appropriate visual material. --[[User:Lexein|Lexein]] ([[User talk:Lexein|talk]]) 00:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== New resolution proposal == |
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Hi. Just wanted to let you know that a new proposal has been made in [[Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Summary_of_conclusions_and_proposed_resolution|a thread you contributed to at AN/I]] concerning the possibility of prohibiting a user from initiating actions at AN, AN/I, or WQA. Thanks, – <font face="Cambria">[[User:Ohiostandard|<font color="teal">'''OhioStandard'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Ohiostandard|talk]])</font> 06:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Luis == |
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I was looking at the notability standard for academics ([[WP:PROF]]), and realized that I don't think luis gonzalez-mestres actually passes any of the criteria. What do you think about potentially just AfDing the article? [[User:Kgorman-ucb|Kevin]] ([[User talk:Kgorman-ucb|talk]]) 08:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:You know, I was thinking '''''exactly''''' the same thing last night, but I haven't have the chance to look at the standards yet. I'll try to get to that later today. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 18:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::OK, I've read the notability standards carefully, and then re-read the article with them in mind. I find none of the possible points mentioned in the notability standard in the article. Just to be sure, I looked at an earlier version of the article, before COI/POV/SPS stuff started to be removed -- in other words, a version that would likely be the most complimentary to LGM, and even in that version, I found no points of notability.<p>I'm an inclusionist at heart, but I'd have no trouble supporting an AfD on the article. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 02:41, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::: I looked around a bit more, didn't find anything that would make him notable, and went ahead and threw up an AfD -- [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luis González-Mestres]]. [[User:Kgorman-ucb|Kevin]] ([[User talk:Kgorman-ucb|talk]]) 05:29, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== ANI mention (not negatively) == |
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You were mentioned at [[WP:ANI#User Terra Novus - topic ban may need revision to include other controversial areas]]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 15:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Thanks, appreciate it. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 18:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Wow--[[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Haeretica Pravitas]] == |
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I turn my back for a day or two and you open and close a sock drawer... thanks. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 19:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:Just following up on what you started! [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 20:12, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::BTW, congrats on 99% support on your RfA with 2+ days to go. Impressive. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 20:14, 24 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Haha, thanks. Seriously, you may not make a lot of friends with those SPIs, but I for one appreciate it. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 03:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== Film Threat edit == |
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Greetings and felicitations. I noticed that you reverted my most recent edit of the ''[[Film Threat]]'' article. I did not just "chang[e] forms of hyphens" (actually I was updating and correcting [[dash]]es—hyphens are not en dashes), but also moved the clean up tag (per [[Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup]]), italicized a title, and cleaned up the references. (I'll get to that Twitter reference as soon as I can get to a more up-to-date computer.) I hope that you can agree that I was improving the article, not just making changes for their own sake.—[[User:DocWatson42|DocWatson42]] ([[User talk:DocWatson42|talk]]) 14:49, 26 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion|Nomination for deletion]] of [[Template:English]] == |
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[[File:Ambox warning pn.svg|30px|link=]][[Template:English]] has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Templates for discussion#Template:English|the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page]].<!--Template:Tfdnotice--> [[User:Colonies Chris|Colonies Chris]] ([[User talk:Colonies Chris|talk]]) 13:38, 28 May 2011 (UTC) |
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== layout == |
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Hi BMK. Quick question. I adjusted the image placement at Katz's Deli so that we would not have text sandwiched in between images, as there was a way to avoid it. I had thought that within MOS. You changed it back ... was just wondering if I missed something. You can reply here. Tx.--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 19:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:What I see, under Firefox, is image on the left, infobox on right, with plenty of space between for text display - about half ther article width. As far as I know there's no MoS prescription against that, and if there is, about 75% of articles aren't in compliance. If it were disallowed, no article with an infobox (which must be close to 90% of them) would be allowed to have an image on the left for a large portion of the article where there is an infobox, an unreasonable restriction.<p>Maybe you're seeing something different from what I am -- what browser are you using? [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 19:52, 28 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::Firefox -- I am seeing text sandwiched between the two, which I thought was generally deprecated by the MOS. Specifically, "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other." See [[MOS:IMAGES]].--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 02:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::The text is not "between two images," it is between an image and an infobox, and, in any event, there is half an article-width worth of space between them, more than sufficient for the clean and comprehensible presentation of text. Are you seeing less that that amount of space?<p>What the MoS is aiming to avoid is something like this: |
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[[File:Sage House ornamentation over side entrance.jpg|thumb|left|460px]] |
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[[File:Sage House ornamentation over side entrance.jpg|thumb|right|460px]] |
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Where the space between isn't wide enough to allow the text to be presented well. |
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:::This kind of layout choice is terrible, and definitely '''''should''''' be avoided, not because the MoS says so, but because it's visually ugly and harmful to the presentation of the text. On the other hand: |
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[[File:Sage House ornamentation over side entrance.jpg|thumb|left|250px]] |
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[[File:Sage House ornamentation over side entrance.jpg|thumb|right|307px]] |
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In the Katz's Deli article, the left image is 250px, and the infobox is about 307 (which is the size of these two images), which gives '''''more''''' than enough space to present text well. I would not call this "sandwiched" which implies that the outside elements are compressing the inside element, it's just three elements each being given sufficient space without impinging on the |
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other elements. |
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:::I see no problem with this layout. [[User:Beyond My Ken|Beyond My Ken]] ([[User talk:Beyond My Ken#top|talk]]) 03:34, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I respect you, so I'll let it sit. But I read the rationale behind the MOS language that I quoted to you as applying to an image and an infobox (which can maintain an image). The rationale behind the instruction: "Avoid sandwiching text" is the same. The instruction is to avoid sandwiching text -- and does not say that it is OK to do so, depending on the length of the sandwiched text. As I read it, sandwiching text -- as with sandwiching a slab of meat -- does not without more convey anything other than X is being put between Y and Z ... it suggests nothing as to the size of x, either explicitly or implicitly. |
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::::There is an easy solution -- the way that it was before you moved it to the left of the infobox did not sandwich any text at all. But as I said, even though I think that the other approach -- which does not raise any issues -- is the better way to go (over one that at the very least "arguably" raises issues), as I said I will defer in this instance. If you want to raise it as a question at the MOS page, let me know, and I will be happy to participate. Best.--[[User:Epeefleche|Epeefleche]] ([[User talk:Epeefleche|talk]]) 05:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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