User talk:Enkyo2/Shōchō 正長 1428

• "Building a taxonomy and nomenclature of collaborative writing to improve interdisciplinary research and practice" (abstract), The Journal of Business Communication. January 1, 2004.
• Wikipedia:Process is important

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Citation style

/Shōchō 正長 1428Hi, I just had a question. I can obviously tell you love Titsingh and Nihon Ōdai Ichiran, but I was wondering, would it perhaps be better, in the articles you've edited, to put something like:

• Titsingh, Isaac, ed. (1834) [Siyun-sai Rin-siyo, 1652], Nipon o daï itsi ran (Paris: Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and Ireland.)

as a citation, instead of:

• Titsingh, Isaac, ed. (1834). [Siyun-sai Rin-siyo, 1652], Nipon o daï itsi ran; ou, Annales des empereurs du Japon, tr. par M. Isaac Titsingh avec l'aide de plusieurs interprètes attachés au comptoir hollandais de Nangasaki; ouvrage re., complété et cor. sur l'original japonais-chinois, accompagné de notes et précédé d'un Aperçu d'histoire mythologique du Japon, par M. J. Klaproth. Paris: Oriental Translation Fund of Great Britain and Ireland. --Two digitized examples of this rare book have now been made available online: (1) from the library of the University of Michigan, digitized January 30, 2007; and (2) from the library of Stanford University, digitized June 23, 2006. Click here to read the original text in French.

and perhaps leave the weblink and full subtitle for the article on Nihon Ōdai Ichiran? Your citation is disproportionately long, especially for some of the nengō-related articles, which don't have much data in them, and are then followed by Mr. Titsingh and this citation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this-- if, say, someone's looking up Minamoto no Yoritomo, they're not necessarily going to want or be able to read an e-book in French, even if it's a translation of a Japanese source. Might a shortened citation (minus the long subtitle and weblink) perhaps be a good idea? -Tadakuni 21:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure -- yes. I do think that your observation is reasonable, of course. But I'm not persuaded that shortening the reference information makes sense at this point -- particularly in the case of those entries which are still quite thin.

My guess is that this somewhat clumsy, overly-full citation tells one and all that information about a specific nengō or emperor is almost accessible -- if not yet as readily available as would be preferred. I hypothesize that it perhaps suggests that something more is probably on the way? In other words, any reader or editor who stumbles across something I'm working on will have no cause to feel discouraged by a blank page. Perhaps equally important, the curious nature of this unexpected citation invites someone to pause and think a minute or two about what I'm doing, as you have done. Don't you think that the reference format itself suggests that something more has got to be coming along in due course?

When the entire nengō field is populated with data, yes -- then I absolutely agree that the citation should to be scaled back. Just not yet .... Do you see my point?

As it happens, my current confidence in this preliminary strategy is informed by something which happened to LordAmeth today. He was in the process of creating a new entry for the nengō just before Taihō -- and someone entirely unfamiliar with the subject thought that whatever he was doing should be deleted before he even got a chance to pull the page together. This meant that the benevolent default protections built into the Wikipedia system caused LordAmeth to be needlessly distracted from the task at hand.

My approach to the work of populating the nengō field is helped -- not hurt -- by the way the Titsingh citation is presented. Even someone who knows nothing about what we're trying to do will recognize that whatever it is I think I'm doing is probably not a frivolous exercise. If anything, it seems likely that the wordy specificity of the Titsingh citations may actually help convince others to cut me some slack.

Does this feedback give you cause to reconsider? In my view, this perfectly understandable sentence of yours is probably on-point in most other circumstances, but in this narrow instance it is oddly inapposite:

"Your citation is disproportionately long, especially for some of the nengō-related articles, which don't have much data in them, and are then followed by Mr. Titsingh and this citation."

This project is taking more time than I'd first imagined, but comments like yours are helpful. Thanks. In this context, it seems like a good opportunity to admit that I'm looking forward to the days when I begin removing the 1834-transliterated title and replacing it with Nihon Ōdai Ichiran. This prospect is a little like a carrot on a stick dangling in front of my nose; and I'm looking forward to that anticipated reward, perhaps in January '08. Ooperhoofd 22:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

So if I'm understanding you correctly, your intent is, among other things, to have it be something of an impetus for others to add further information of relevance. Well, for starters, I have to give you credit for working on those nengō articles to begin with, among other things. You've sure got a lot of guts, and you've given the pre-1868 Japan editors here a real kick in the pants, which I, for one, needed. I wish I had a modern transliteration of the names in your version of the text, though, because while some of them are straightforward, others are not. I'm still looking for "Minamoto no Masa-tsouna," for instance.

Well, at any rate, my thanks for your structured, reasoned response. I look forward to seeing the continuation of your work in coming days. -Tadakuni 00:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Off hand, I don't recopgnize the context in which Minamoto no Masa-tsouna arises, but I do know that the page about Fujiwara no Teika mentions Fujiwara Masatsune. There is, as yet, nothing about either Minamoto-no Masatsune nor Fujiwara-no Masatsune in the French Wikipedia. Sometimes it's almost easy to guess about some of these names, but often I feel the need to be cautious. Yes, I see that you've grasped my dilemma clearly. Sometimes it does pay to heed the injunction to BE BOLD, but sometimes it's better to hold back. Ooperhoofd 01:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The context is here: Tokugawa_Ieharu. "Prince of Ko-tsou'ke, hereditary Prince of Tamba, and Prince of Kotsouke and Iyo" seems somewhat repetitive, and I've been trying to go through the lists I have of daimyo of Iyo, Tanba, and Kozuke, and/or daimyo who had the titles "Kozuke no Kami," "Tanba no Kami" or "Iyo no Kami," or some combination thereof. The person might also be a court noble, or even a hatamoto. Still haven't found anything. -Tadakuni 04:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)