File talk:Old norse, ca 900.PNG

Sources

What are the sources for the information on this map? Two things mainly puzzle me; that the Viken area (present-day eastern Norway) is classified as West Norse, and that southwestern Finland is not colored at all. Not sure about this, though. Jørgen 18:16, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I consulted a number of sources for this map, in order to make it as accurate as possible. Viken was at the time West Norse, but its dialect was later influenced by Swedish and Danish. AFAIK, the Finnish coastland was depopulated at the time due to Swedish raids.--Wiglaf 18:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

OK, sounds good. I am not convinced, however, I do not have time to check my sources right now... :-). And the map is nice, and I only doubt small parts of it, so I'm quite happy anyway. Jørgen 20:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would like to see, in particular, sources regarding Finland, because it is claimed in Swedish-speaking Finns that the First Swedish Crusade brought the language into the country, or else occupation by the 1250s, still within the time of Old Norse. ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 17:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Great image. Thanks. For colour/color blind people, it would be nice if named arrows pointing to the areas were added or numbers that texts can refer to. In the case of Iceland the white interior means no people dwelling there, but in other areas (except for the Finnish coastland ?) that was probably not the case. Mokgand 18:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I second that, and I think that the choice of colours is not optimal, too. I'm only slightly colourblind, but I cannot distinguish any "pink" and "orange" areas in this image at all. It might be better to use totally different colours, instead of various shades of red. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 10:45, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds it odd that this map shows Germanic languages being spoken on the Crimean peninsula? —Typhlosion 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Crimean Gothic surviving in the Crimea is popular, but not altogether non-spurious. Otherwise, this map is actually very good. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

As far I can see, the area of Haugaland (southern Hordaland and northern Rogaland), which includes Haugesund, Bømlo, Stord and maybe Austevoll inn western Norway, are colored pink on the map. Did they really speak gutnish there? I think not.. twutt 16:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Crimean Gothic was Not North Germanic

Crimean Gothic was an East Germanic language not a North Germanic (Scandinavian) language.

The name "Goths" (as well as their oral history) seems to establish that they did originate in the Baltic -- but this origin was during the 1st Millenium B.C., prior to the split of Germanic into 3 branches.

See Wulfila's Bible, written in Visigothic.

So Crimean Gothic should appear on this map as "Other Germanic" -- probably with a note on its East Germanic status for clarity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.18.181 (talk) 02:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

---

Well now I'm seeing that the legend for the map is actually text. But it is some kind of template -- "Old Norse language map" -- that I can't find to edit.

The template text should be edited something like:

"Crimean Gothic" (an East Germanic language with which Old Norse retained some mutual comprehensibility)"

"The West Germanic language group (with which Old Norse retained some mutual comprehensibility)"

Or the colored rectangles could be divided into two groups -- "Old Norse Dialects", "Other Germanic Language Groups"... or something.

Eastern Border of West Germanic?

What is the source for the linguistic borders of West Germanic on the map?

Was southern Schleswig-Holstein really Slavic speaking (or whatever) at that time?

Had the Kingdom of Burgundy already adopted French?

I'm not sure -- just asking for fact checks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.245.38 (talk) 02:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah, this should be fixed. The area around Hamburg would have been dominated by Low German (Old Saxon). There may have been occasional Slavic incursions in that time, see w:Obotrites, but the boundary should probably best drawn along the w:Limes Saxoniae, which stood from the early 9th century. See File:Limes.saxoniae.wmt.png. --dab (𒁳) 13:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Old Gutnish in Hordaland?

Was Old Gutnish ever spoken in Hordaland or any other part of Norway? According to this map it was, but I highly doubt that.Inge 14:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Yellow?

what language(s) does the yellow color over most of britain correspond to? - Metanoid (talk, email) 04:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

found it, duh :p - Metanoid (talk, email) 04:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Map

Do we really need to be distinguishing "East Norse" and "West Norse", two totally modern constructs based largely on certainly elements within the modern Norwegian nationalist movement? These terms are unattested and anachronistic, and come up badly when placed in northern England which had settlers from both Norway and Denmark who all mixed together and no comment on language difference was ever made. BTW, there is no evidence English was the language of Wigtownshire or even Kirkcudbrightshire in 900; the color should be removed from these areas. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 05:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The linguistic distinction between East and West Norse is generally accepted. (its usefulness as a description of the modern languages is another matter). It has nothing to do with Norwegian nationalism - Were you thinking of Bokmål vs Nynorsk? That's another story. "Unattested and anachronistic"? It's a linguistic distinction. Nobody claimed it was a contemporary one. None of the terms in the image were used at that time. Also, the article Old Norse makes it quite clear that they didn't make that distinction. Of course no comment on linguistic differences was made. There were no linguists back then, and written sources are scarce enough in themselves. Nor would there have been much reason to comment - the languages were still completely mutually intelligible to them. (and largely still are a thousand years later). Nevertheless, differences between East and West Norse were quite real. --Pykk (talk) 22:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there were linguists back then... ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 17:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)