Talk:1938 expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany

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Untitled[edit]

This article is an excellent start. The main question that remains to be ascertained, using the latest secondary literature, is which agencies and individuals played the key roles in the decision, decreeing, and implementation of the Polenaktion. It would also be useful to mention regional variations in implementation. Uta Larkey has written about the case of the state of Saxony in particular, revising some of the findings of Jerzy Tomaszweski's study. Larkey, Uta (2017). "Fear and Terror: The Expulsion of Polish Jews from Saxony/Germany in October 1938". Dapim: Studies on the Holocaust. 31:3: 243–260 – via Taylor & Francis Online. Amos Bitzan (talk) 17:05, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Berg22.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

gained access to Poland's interior ?[edit]

Did they gain access to Poland's interior, which made them later Holocaust victims, or rather forced them to emigrate, which may have saved them?Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Polenaktion sparked protests by the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, which threatened to expel German citizens from Poland in retaliation. As a result, Polish-German negotiations began in Berlin, and Polenaktion was suspended. Jews who were not driven out by the Germans across the border were taken back into the country, usually to German concentration camps" From Polish version. This should be corrected in English version.
Also: They received medical equipment from the Polish Red Cross [1]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 April 2022[edit]

Please add this item to the references and external links:

Noam Corb: “From Tears Come Rivers, from Rivers Come Oceans, from Oceans — a Flood”: The Polenaktion, 1938–1939 In: Yad Vashem Studies: Volume 48, 2020, pp. 21–69

https://www.academia.edu/45675677/_From_Tears_Come_Rivers_from_Rivers_Come_Oceans_from_Oceans_a_Flood_The_Polenaktion_1938_1939 איש עברי (talk) 10:51, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Why would we add this to references if it's not sourcing any statements? Why would it be included in the external links? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:07, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is an important source regarding the deportation;The article recounts the deportation to Zbąszyń from its earliest stages in the autumn of 1938, to the dismantling of the refugee camp in the aftermath of the outbreak of World War II in September 1939. The main focus is the Jewish deportees’ point of view—their responses, feelings, daily routine, attempts to emigrate, and questions of identity. The gist of the analysis is based on deportees’ contemporary letters, the rich documentation in the Yiddish press (in Poland and the United States) and the Hebrew press (in Palestine), and memoirs written after the events. In this way the article broadens the descriptions that emerged from previous studies, which relied mainly on the British, American, and Polish press and on reports from various German and Polish authorities.

Focal points in the article include the way the deportees understood the response of their German neighbors to the deportation, the crisis of identity that the deportation forced them to confront, their adoption of markers of “Polish” identity pursuant to the deportation, and their attitude toward the Polish Jews whom they encountered as part of the ramified relief activities, among other settings. איש עברי (talk) 08:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish Seems like a fairly harmless edit to just add something to further reading if it's a reliable source? I certainly would support it. (t · c) buidhe 11:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to add it. I have no objections. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: I have doubts on the article's reliability. A discussion about https://www.academica.edu in March 2021 had many editors argue that the website is WP:SELFPUB. The uploader and writer of the article appears to be a student at Tel Aviv University. For these reasons I have in my capacity as a reviewer of the edit request marked it as answered again and decline to include it. That said, I am not a subject matter expert, I have not performed a thorough search elsewhere to determine if the article is more reliable then my evaluation on the website is, and I have not evaluated if inclusion may be appropriate regardless of reliability since it isn't being used as a citation. Not that anyone at the WP:XC level needs me to clarify this, but any editor with the relevant permissions may move forward with this request at their discretion. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 06:52, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The page is protected so I can't do it myself. איש עברי (talk) 06:03, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article was published in the international Holocaust journal "Yad Vashem Studies" איש עברי (talk) 07:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • User:Sirdog you're mistaken, Yad Vashem Studies is a peer-reviewed journal and it just happens to be posted on the academia.edu site. I would just post the citation without the link though, because I'm not sure if academia.edu has permission to post it. (t · c) buidhe 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Me? Being wrong!? Perish the thou- okay, yeah, it probably won't be the last. 😭 I completely missed that. I've gone ahead and included the text in a new Further reading section as I think that is most appropriate considering it won't be a link (per your concern about permission) and it isn't being used to cite anything in particular. —Sirdog (talk) 17:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a link to an online version of the article in the database of the israeli national library: https://merhav.nli.org.il/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=RAMBI11498544830005171&context=L&vid=NLI_Rambi&lang=en_US&search_scope=RAMBI&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,Noam%20corb%20NNL&offset=0 איש עברי (talk) 11:57, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Section for those among the expelled?[edit]

I wonder if the article might benefit from a section listing some of those noteworthies among the expelled? I have just created an article on Abraham Wasserstein, and he was among the expelled and spent time in the camp at Zbąszyń. Stronach (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Polenaktion - article[edit]

Here there is a link to the article of Noam Corb that can be added to the bibliography in the "further reading" section: https://merhav.nli.org.il/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=RAMBI11498544830005171&context=L&vid=NLI_Rambi&lang=en_US&search_scope=RAMBI&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,Noam%20corb%20NNL&offset=0 איש עברי (talk) 08:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2023[edit]

איש עברי (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: German History, 1900-1945[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 January 2024 and 22 March 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Blazepizza22 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Hmarcuse (talk) 03:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This student has added the following paragraph filling in details of what Germany did from March through August 1938. This is well-documented and quite uncontroversial, and necessary for a fuller understanding of the consequences of the event (namely the Oct. 31 deportations that triggered the assassination that was used as an excuse to unleash the "Kristallnacht" pogrom on Nov. 9). Can someone with 500 edits approve it and port it over from the student's sandbox? User:Blazepizza22/1938 expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany#Article body
Following the German Annexation of Austria on March 13, 1938 the Polish government became worried that it would face a vast increase in re-migration of Jewish Poles fleeing Austria now that it had become part of Nazi Germany. In response, the Polish government passed legislation on March 31, 1938 that allowed Poland to revoke Polish citizenship if the person had been living abroad for more than five years since the establishment of Poland in 1919.[1] As a response the German government, which did not want to be stuck with tens of thousands of stateless Jewish Poles, passed legislation in August that allowed it to deport any foreigner who had lost their citizenship from their home country. Additionally, a confidential directive was issued to not allow any new residence permits to be issued to Jews.[2][3] Hmarcuse (talk) 05:57, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a copyedited version of the added text:

Following the German annexation of Austria on 13 March 1938 the Polish government became worried that it would face a large-scale return of Jewish citizens of Poland that had been living in Austria. On 31 March 1938, the parliament approved legislation enabling the revocation of Polish citizenship if the person had been living abroad for more than five years since the establishment of Poland in 1919.[4] The German government, which did not want to be stuck with tens of thousands of stateless Jewish Poles, passed legislation in August that allowed it to deport any foreigner who had lost their citizenship from their home country. Additionally, a confidential directive was issued to not allow any new residence permits to be issued to Jews.[5][better source needed][6]

However, I hesitate to add it for the following reasons:
  • Cambridge Scholars Publishing is not usually a reliable source
  • I wouldn't usually expect undergraduate history students to cite out of print sources in a foreign language. Can you confirm that you personally checked the Maurer source? Otherwise cite where you read it
(t · c) buidhe 06:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can confirm both. Bonnie Harris was one of my Ph.D. students, and the chapter in this publication is based on her dissertation. She is a bona fide historian teaching at San Diego State and elsewhere, with quite a few publications. And I did review and translate the section from the Pehle anthology with the student. However, perhaps hold off briefly anyway, I found there is another article in the Leo Baeck Yearbook that may have relevant information to add, and will see whether the student has time to check it. If not, I'll do that myself next week (we're in exam week here). Hmarcuse (talk) 06:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was no relevant new information in the Sybil Milton Source but I added the citation. Here is the the text with the citation added. Feel free to edit it as you did above.
Following the German Annexation of Austria on March 13, 1938 the Polish government became worried that it would face a vast increase in re-migration of Jewish Poles fleeing Austria now that it had become part of Nazi Germany. In response, the Polish government passed legislation on March 31, 1938 that allowed Poland to revoke Polish citizenship if the person had been living abroad for more than five years since the establishment of Poland in 1919.As a response the German government, which did not want to be stuck with tens of thousands of stateless Jewish Poles, passed legislation in August that allowed it to deport any foreigner who had lost their citizenship from their home country. Additionally, a confidential directive was issued to not allow any new residence permits to be issued to Jews. Blazepizza22 (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done (t · c) buidhe 01:16, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change title of page to reflect NPOV[edit]

Calling the objects of this German expulsion "Polish Jews," while reflecting common parlance, adopts the Nazi identification of this group. These "Jews" were Polish citizens, some of whom had long since converted to Christianity (or might have seen themselves as areligious). In any event, it is more accurate to call them Jewish Poles--even if the Polish government had started to relegate them to second-class citizenship, they were still citizens. The same, by the way, applies to "Jewish Germans": many prior to 1933 would have seen themselves as German citizens first, who happened to have Jewish ancestry or practice the Jewish faith. Becoming citizens was a struggle in various German states (Prussia, Hesse, Free City of Hamburg) since the 1840s and resulted in "German Jews" being granted citizenship with the founding of the Reich in 1871, making them "Jewish Germans." Not until their citizenship was again revoked under the 1935 Nuremberg Laws did they again become "German Jews." Anyway, IMO this change from Polish Jews to Jewish Poles should be implemented throughout the entire article. Hmarcuse (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well, you do bring up a good point, but equally one could argue that some of those expelled cannot really be described as Polish, apart from their legal citizenship—people like Herschel Grynszpan had never lived in Poland and didn't speak Polish. Although I'm sympathetic to your argument, on Wikipedia we tend to follow the terminology used in reliable sources:
  1. Harris, Bonnie M. (2009). "From German Jews to Polish Refugees: Germany's Polenaktion and the Zbąszyn Deportations of October 1938". Kwartalnik Historii Żydów. 230 (02): 175–205. ISSN 1899-3044. "Polenaktion expelled nearly 20,000 Polish Jews from Germany "
  2. Larkey, Uta (2017). "Fear and Terror: The Expulsion of Polish Jews from Saxony/Germany in October 1938". Dapim: Studies on the Holocaust. 31 (3): 243–260. doi:10.1080/23256249.2017.1385844.
  3. Milton, S. (1984). "The Expulsion of Polish Jews from Germany October 1938 to July 1939: A Documentation". The Leo Baeck Institute Yearbook. 29 (1): 169–199. doi:10.1093/leobaeck/29.1.169.
  4. Service, Hugo (23 September 2020). "The Imagined Ethno-Racial Border and the Expulsion of Jews from Western Poland, 1939-41*". German History. 38 (3): 414–439. doi:10.1093/gerhis/ghaa017. (expellees are "Jews holding... Polish citizenship"
  5. Frankl, Michal (2020). "Citizenship of No Man's Land? Jewish Refugee Relief in Zbąszyń and East-Central Europe, 1938–1939". S:I.M.O.N. Shoah: Intervention. Methods. Documentation. 7 (2): 37–49. ISSN 2408-9192. "expulsion of Polish Jews"
  6. Rossino, Alexander B. (2001). "Nazi Anti-Jewish Policy during the Polish Campaign: The Case of the Einsatzgruppe von Woyrsch". German Studies Review. 24 (1): 35–53. doi:10.2307/1433155. ISSN 0149-7952. "nearly 17,000 Polish Jews were detained and expelled"

I did find one counterexample, "The Expulsion of Jewish Polish Citizens from Germany on October 28-29, 1938". Overall, since "Polish Jews" is the more common terminology, I would be inclined to stick with that. (t · c) buidhe 03:01, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks, I totally get that Wikipedia doesn't want to get ahead of the curve--as I wrote, "Polish Jews" is common parlance, and if Wikipedia needs to stick with that in spite of it being, well, ultimately racist, so be it. I do still think that it is also objectively incorrect, and just because people--including scholars--have been unreflectedly using the Nazi (and antisemitic Polish) term for decades, doesn't mean we should keep perpetuating it.
By the way, the article you found using the correct term is a great find, and I think actually proves my point: When it is important to make the right distinction, as it was for the German bureaucrats writing the quoted memos, they use terms like "Jewish Polish citizens."
No need to respond, I concede the point in this case, but am planning an article about it, and will come back to it in due course.
And thanks also for your help with the student's addition. Hmarcuse (talk) 04:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Meltzer, Emanuel (1977). "Relations between Poland and Germany and Their Impact on the Jewish Problem in Poland (1935-1938)". Yad Vashem. 12: 215–216.
  2. ^ Bonnie Harris, “The Polenaktion of October 28, 1938: Prelude to Kristallnacht and Pattern for Deportation,” in: Holocaust Persecution: Responses and Consequences, ed. Nancy Rupprecht and Wendy Koenig (Newcastle upon Tyne, England: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2010), 59.
  3. ^ Maurer, Trude. “Die Ausweisung der polnischen Juden und der Vorwand für die Kristallnacht.” In Uwe Adam and Walter Pehle (eds.), Der Judenpogrom 1938: Von der Reichskristallnacht zum Völkermord. Frankfurt, Germany: Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, 1988, p. 60.
  4. ^ Meltzer, Emanuel (1977). "Relations between Poland and Germany and Their Impact on the Jewish Problem in Poland (1935-1938)". Yad Vashem Studies. 12: 215–216.
  5. ^ Bonnie Harris, “The Polenaktion of October 28, 1938: Prelude to Kristallnacht and Pattern for Deportation,” in: Holocaust Persecution: Responses and Consequences, ed. Nancy Rupprecht and Wendy Koenig (Newcastle upon Tyne, England: Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2010), 59.
  6. ^ Maurer, Trude. “Die Ausweisung der polnischen Juden und der Vorwand für die Kristallnacht.” In Uwe Adam and Walter Pehle (eds.), Der Judenpogrom 1938: Von der Reichskristallnacht zum Völkermord. Frankfurt, Germany: Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, 1988, p. 60.
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