Talk:Apple crisp

How

How is Apple Cobbler a variant of Apple Crisp? The two are very different dishes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.8.106 (talk) 08:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Crisp, crumble, and brown betty

The headline says:

Apple crisp (name used in the United States and Canada) or apple crumble (name preferred in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand) …

So, "apple crumble" is just the UK name for a crisp? OK. But then, under "Variants":

Apple crumble is a British pudding similar to the apple crisp that originated during World War II food rationing. The topping is made of butter, flour, and brown sugar rolled together so that it resembles breadcrumbs. Care must be taken to balance the correct amount of crumble with the fruit, or else the filling may seep through and spoil this crust.

So it's a variant that's… exactly the same thing? In fact, it's not even a variant, because the section lead says:

There are a number of desserts that employ apples with sweet toppings, but none of them are the same as apple crisp, making them not so much variants, but instead other related apple desserts.

(So why is it called "Variants" if these aren't variants, anyway?) Meanwhile, crumble has its own article, linked under See also, which tells you that a crumble is also known as a brown betty! But here, a Brown Betty is described as a completely different dessert:

Apple Brown Betty (or apple pudding) consists of alternating layers of apples and sweetened buttered bread crumbs or crackers, often with a sauce.

Meanwhile, if you look at the cobbler page, it says, "NOTE: The crisp and crumble differ from the cobbler in that the formers' top layers are generally made with oatmeal." Which directly contradicts what the crisp and crumble pages say.

From my own knowledge: a crisp and a brown betty are distinct variants on the cobbler, and the crumble is just a specific kind of crisp. Both substitute something sweet that crisps as it bakes for the batter crust, which can be anything from streusel to oatmenal-brown sugar to soaked crackers. The distinction is that a crisp has a single layer of topping that seals the filling; the brown betty has multiple interspersed layers where the filling seeps into the interior layers. A crumble is a crisp specifically using streusel or something very similar, like on a crumb coffee cake. Brits are familiar with crumbles in exactly that sense (whether they invented it independently during WWII or borrowed it, I have no idea). If shown an oatmeal-based crisp, or a brown betty, or any of the other American cobbler variants, they won't consider it the same dish as a crumble (but won't think it's some weird and inedible thing, either). Also, some Americans call some or all these things kinds of pies (so you may have an "apple crumble pie"), but others find that confusing (is it a crumble, or a pie?); most Brits would call all of them puddings, which Americans find even more confusing.

I may be wrong about this, and even if I'm not, my own memory is certainly not a reliable source. But someone should do the research to figure out how to make these pages not contradict themselves and each other at every step. (And maybe there shouldn't be so many separate pages for minor variations on the same idea?) --50.0.128.185 (talk) 18:17, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

"Apple crumble is a British pudding similar to the apple crisp that originated during World War II food rationing. The topping is made of butter, flour, and brown sugar rolled together so that it resembles breadcrumbs..."

I'm reading the sense of this as 'British pudding... that originated during World War II food rationing'. Butter and sugar (of all types) were severely rationed in wartime Britain - it would be nonsensical to suggest that a pudding made of such scarce ingredients 'originated during...food rationing'. There was some limited food rationing in wartime America but, again, it's hard to see how that would have 'originated' apple crisp as a shortage food item.

Having eaten both dishes in their native habitats, I'm absolutely certain that American apple crisp and British apple crumble are two entirely different dishes - and that neither has been 'borrowed' from the national cuisine of the other.2A01:4B00:AE0E:6200:DC7D:D977:5E79:92BB (talk) 22:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

This "Apple Crisp" bears no relation to British "Apple Crumble"

I am making a point that an American assimilation of a very different dish is not acceptable. They are yards apart. The point of the British crumble is that it does precisely that: it crumbles -- it is not "crisp".

A British crumble topping does not contain oats. It is simply, flour, butter, sugar. The picture shows anything but. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:2002:2F8:A2BE:898D:DE06:F757:A6D5 (talk) 06:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

To further explain: A crumble topping comprises much less sugar, as the point is not to produce a overwhelmingly-caramelized top. To wit: the crumble has a typically 1:1 or (at most) 5:4 sugar-to-flour ratio. By comparison, a crisp has typically a 16:1 sugar-to-flour ratio (i.e. 16 times more sugar, 16 times less flour as compared to the crumble)

And, just as another post takes exception to apple cobbler being assimilated here, I make the same point re the British Apple Crumble. It is British, and it is made from cooking apples i.e. Bramley (which is a sour apple) ---- and not Granny Smith which is a hard eating apple (i.e., relatively unsweet, but not sour) bearing a non-oat crumble topping, which has a much lower sugar-to-flour ratio than a "crisp".

It's like saying Turkish Sigara Boregi should be assimilated into the cheese twist category because, let's face it, both are made of a type of puff pastry and both comprise cheese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:2002:2f8:a2be:898d:de06:f757:a6d5 (talk • contribs) 07:49, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm late to this terrible party-gone-wrong, but I agree with whoever wrote this section. Early apple crumble recipes do not mention oats, rolled or otherwise, or brown sugar. The lead article is simply wrong, and I support the split proposal (see below). — Jon (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

The text of the above recipe in my 1960 Beeton has been reproduced on ckbk but has been attributed incorrectly to the first 1861 edition of Beeton. The apple crumble recipe would have first appeared in Beeton somewhere in the 1930s or 1940s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanischoice (talk • contribs) 00:42, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

There were no recipe-naming police around to tell the cookbook authors that their recipes have the "wrong" names. All of these things get called all of these names by various people. This dish has streusel vs baking powder biscuits or pie crust. Streusel can be, and is, made with and without oats (also with and without nuts). People aren't wrong just because they didn't change the name when they added one ingredient. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:48, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make or who you're accusing of being the recipe-naming police, but the points made here were simply that 1. apple crumble has an early 20th century British origin, 2. did not originally involve oats or brown sugar, and 3. is not the same dessert as apple crisp (although the term "crumble" can refer to the latter in North America). These are well-sourced and relatively uncontroversial facts, and should be conveyed in the lead paragraph (of apple crumble, which has since been split out). We need not judge which is best, or which or whose variations are right or wrong. In fact, describing the variations and where and when they originated etc. can be a fun rabbit hole to go down. — Jon (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Canadian usage

Canada does not use the term Apple Crisp- maybe on boxes of the dessert frozen, but not in day to day usage. It's usually apple crumble, when referring to the dish with or without oats.

Additionally, there's a pretty large difference between Apple Crumble and Apple Crisp, and they should be seperate pages. Not to mention the baffling addition of a cobbler on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanderson96 (talk • contribs) 19:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Splitting proposal 12 June 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to split. Scudsvlad (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

---

I suggested that this article be split into two articles each titled Apple crisp and Apple crumble, per WP:CONSPLIT. --Melsj (talk) 01:38, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support Two different dishes, would not be expecting apple crumble (a dish common in UK), to redirect to article apple crisp (which is a mostly North American dish that I've never even heard of). They aren't synonyms, so split. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Completely different foods, one has an oat topping, the other streusel. Spudlace (talk) 00:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support also. Different dishes. --IWI (talk) 07:41, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support What ever an "Apple Crisp" is, it looks nothing like an Apple Crumble, they are completely different things!, edit - I don't see this changing due to wiki's obvious "American English" bias!!. --atomicdanny (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support apple crisp while I'm sure it's a worthy and delicious dessert bears little resemblance to apple crumble. Furthermore, rolled oats are entirely optional; they are not a defining feature of apple crumble, and in fact were absent from the earliest recipes. I have a recipe from a 1960 edition of Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management to prove this, which I'm happy to upload somewhere as evidence, since Google Books is a trashfire these days and I can't seem to be able to coax one out of the Open Library.—Jon (talk) 22:30, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead image

Does the lead image appear to have a bottom pie crust to anyone else's eyes? If so, that's probably a apple pie with streusel topping, not an apple crisp. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)