Talk:Baharna

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On 29 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Bahrani people to Baharna. The result of the discussion was moved.

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Bet qatraye=Bahrain (historical region)[edit]

Ashrf1979 (talk) 08:48, 24 May 2012 (UTC)Bet qatraye sometimes also called (the isles) was the ecclesiastical province Kuwait ,eastern Saudi Arabia ,Bahrain and Qatar several Christian settlements, both monasteries and churches ,and have now been found within the province ,including two in Kuwait ,two more in Saudi Arabia ,and at least one in Qatar[reply]

Source: Nestorian christanity in pre-islamic uae and southeast Arabia,peter hellyer,journal of social affairs,volume 18.number72.winter2011,p253,a refereed quarterly journal published by the sociological association of the uae and the American university of sharjah

http://www.adias-uae.com/publications/hellyer01b.pdf

Edit warring and blanking[edit]

This is a gentle note to those participating in the article. When adding material, please use inline citations from reliable sources. Edit warring can and will get you blocked or even banned. Blanking sections without justification is also unacceptable. Instead of edit warring, you need to discuss things on this talk page and follow Wikipedia talk page guidelines. If this behavior continues, I plan to report it to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Mohamed CJ (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox[edit]

The basis for listing those individuals in the infobox is purely ancedotal and no reliable source directly states that they are of Bahrani descent, thus, I'm going to remove them. AsimAlsadeh (talk) 09:32, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 September 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per nomination. (closed by non-admin page mover) —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 16:16, 16 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bahrani people → Baharna – the much more common naming used in the article itself and its sources^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]. "Bahrani" is correct as an adjective or referring to one person, but Baharna is the communal term referring to the ethnic group as a whole. It also becomes consistent with Baharna in Kuwait, and not as easy to confuse with Bahraini people (this confusion persisted in wikipedia for years until Privybst's move earlier today).

References

^ "Bahrain - History Background". education.stateuniversity.com. Archived from the original on October 11, 2015.
^ Language Variation And Change In A Modernising Arab State: The Case Of Bahrain Google Books
^ Holes, Clive (2001). Dialect, Culture, and Society in Eastern Arabia: Glossary. ISBN 978-9004107632.
^ Jastrow, Otto (2002). Non-Arabic Semitic elements in the Arabic dialects of Eastern Arabia. pp. 270–279. ISBN 9783447044912. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

High surv (talk) 14:43, 29 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. ‡ Night Watch ω (talk) 18:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Appears to be the common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:45, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Shwcz (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Origin section[edit]

Seeing @Thehistoriann's removal of the sourced "Origin" section, any issues with the sources or the stated info should be discussed here, not resort to removing entire sections over disagreements. High surv (talk) 19:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there, I have just now seen this message. The sources you have added to the “orgin” section don’t have any valid, reliable backing to confirm them. They mention Non-Arabs living in early pre-islamic Bahrain (Eastern Arabia) but they fail to make the connection between those elements and the “Baharna”, who arrived from the Hejaz in Western Arabia, with the overwhelming majority being of the Abd Al-Qays tribe of the Rab’ia branch. Many reliable sources mention that when they arrived, branches of the Bakr Ibn Wa’il of the Anizah tribe, also members of the Rab’ia branch we’re already inhabiting the region. It’s also mentioned multiple times about many battles and conflicts between the inhabitants of Eastern Arabia, which were all Arab tribes whether they were sedentary or not. Adding to that, countless DNA/ancestry tests of the “Y” have been done in major projects in Eastern Arabia. The results are widely available online to the public and the results all came in Arab haplogroups, with the “J” haplogroup largely dominanting the results. Also, you mentioned *historical* Baharna migrations, but the source you added was a report by a news network from the early 2010’s about Pakistani troops dealing with protesters. This definitely fails to meet the criteria of credible source as it has no relevance or any possible connection to the the statement. Thank you. Thehistoriann (talk) 19:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You've removed a whole section with 10 sources, most of which are academic sources by historians. Have you examined those sources? One of those sources is even cited in the article you used (Al-Rumaihi's Bahrain: Social and Political Change Since the First World War).

No one disputes the presence of Arab tribes in Eastern Arabia, in fact many of the sources provide further evidence for it, not just from later Arab historians but also pre-Islamic Greek sources. But there is also evidence provided for the presence of other groups noted in the section, and further evidence showing some cultural and linguistic influence that carry over to modern Baharna. So, there are theories about those groups intermixing and Arabizing. Much of this was included in the section before it was removed, though more details could be added.

DNA data only shows shared ancestry, it does not tell us anything about who those ancestors were and what languages they spoke 1400 years ago. The "J" haplogroup isn't a language classifier. It is highly concentrated in Yemen as well, but there's been ample evidence that large portions of Yemen did not speak Arabic prior to the Muslim expansion (see Old South Arabian).

Finally, I'd like to remind of WP:Assume Good Faith. Accusing other editors of political sectarianism and committing "جريمة ثقافية ودينية" (a cultural and religious crime) isn't appropriate. Competing theories as supported by verifiable sources should be included, even if you don't believe them to be correct (see WP:TRUTH).

Regarding the Aljazeera source you mentioned, you are correct. I've put it back as part of the revert to bring back the removed section, but indeed that source doesn't make sense. It looks like it was citing some other sentence that got removed many years ago. High surv (talk) 02:01, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hello, when I mentioned Arab I was not referring to the Arabic language, rather Arab ethnicity. Yes there were non-Arabs present in Eastern Arabia however the Baharna came from Western Arabia, precisely from Jibal Tuhama, Al Hejaz aswell as modern day Yanbu. they are the descendants of the Banu Abd Al-Qays tribe and they are mention under the title “ Al-Abdi Al-Bahrani” even in the 12/13th centuries. However, as they were sedentary, people associated with the area they are from rather than the ancestor as it would be common knowledge. Its also important to note that a few other Arab tribes were in Eastern Arabia that formed a confederation/alliance with Abd-AlQays, as in they joined the tribe so they associated with it. Its also mentioned in Arabic sources that Abd Al-Qays dominated and ousted the Arab tribe that was previously dominating and ruling Eastern Arabia, clearing indicating that Arabian tribes were present in the region, even before the arrival of the Rab’ia Tribes after “Al-Basous” war. Even though I without a doubt academically disagree with the origins section as its a unreliable theory without any proper backing, I understand your perspective. Thank you Thehistoriann (talk) 22:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Bahrain - History Background". education.stateuniversity.com. Archived from the original on October 11, 2015.

[2] Language Variation And Change In A Modernising Arab State: The Case Of Bahrain Google Books

[3] Holes, Clive (2001). Dialect, Culture, and Society in Eastern Arabia: Glossary. ISBN 978-9004107632.

[4] Jastrow, Otto (2002). Non-Arabic Semitic elements in the Arabic dialects of Eastern Arabia. pp. 270–279. ISBN 9783447044912. {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help)

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