Talk:Black September in Jordan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Palestine (Rated C-Class, High-importance)
Peasant Family of Ramallah 1900-1910.jpg
Palestine portal
This article is part of WikiProject Palestine a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page where you can add your name to the list of members and contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Palestine articles.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Military history WikiProject     (Rated Start-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
WikiProject Jordan (Rated C-Class)
Flag of Jordan.svg This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jordan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jordan on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Palestinians escaping to Israel during BS?

I´ve seen some old magazines where Palestinians escape from Jordan to Israel during BS, anyone have any # how many escaped and their destiny? RGDS Alexmcfire

RESRONSE: "Seventy-two Palestinians who were afraid of the Jordanian soldiers chose to undertake the most humiliating action possible for them: They fled to the West Bank and surrendered to IDF soldiers".. actually I'm very sorry that I don't have any documented references regarding the subject and I promise to look for and post as soon as I can. Firstly to be noted, palestenians who surrendered to IDF did NOT do it as an act of fear of the Jordanian Soldiers. They did it under the impression that being captured by the enemy is the norm in warfare but being emprisoned by an arab brother and prevented by him to fight your enemy is what humiliation is all about. Again I apologize for not supporting my claim with documented references but I know people who were there at the time and turning an action of Pride to an action of fear in this article is just beyond my tolerence.. Omar K. Hasanat 213.181.166.26 (talk) 09:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Escalation of tensions between US and USSR

The contents of the section "Escalation of tensions between US and USSR" seem to be original research. No citation of a reputable source is given for what the section claims to be the near unfolding of "World War III". Even if this section is based on facts, its style is very unencyclopedic and needs to be completely rewritten.--128.139.226.36 08:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. In addition its content doesn't relate to the rest of the article. Removing it but one phrase, recoverable from either from history or this diff [1]. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted some edits and added the Soviet/Russian point of view to the events. --Fastboy (talk) 11:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] massacre !!!

it is a massacre when people are mass murdered in their own land. those palestinian civilians (refugees) engaged in acts of war against the monarchy, jordanian soldiers, and jordanian civilians. they were part of the PLO's unorganized or unofficial military. so, this was mass kill of soldiers and not mass murder of civilians .... "massacre" is an emotional word and inappropriate to describe a historical event which we only read about in books and which is supposed to be scientific and unbiased.



RESPONSE: Actually a massacre is an "indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people". How is it that acts of civilians are described as acts of war? Sorry but you should get over the use of "emotional" wording its entirely appropriate in this instance.

please sign your comments and also cite references. I see that neither of you is doing this. Let me know if I could help you come up with references.. I speak a little Arabic if that helps.aharon42 (talk) 01:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biased or what?

Wow -- I can't believe this piece is standing without much opposition to its one-sided contents. Just goes to show how U.S.-centric the Wikipedia still is.

The only reason I don't formally demand a NPOV here is because I don't know enough myself about this history. But consider this entry notice that the article is unacceptable as-is. Once english-speaking palestinians learn about it, for instance, I'm sure the article will invariably become more objective. Informative too.

Otherwise this piece skirts being labelled as simply soft-ball anti-palestinian propaganda.

Pazouzou 06:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed - there are clear POV problems, so I added the {{pov}} tag. At present we have an entire article outlining, and explicitly apologising for, the Jordanian position, coupled with the Israeli/american view on the conflict, but nothing explaining the palestinian position. --Irishpunktom\talk 14:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


leon cohn - my opinion is that if you do not like the view of the conflict, find a new one and annotate it and stop complaining.


Yow... this will take a bit of work. For what it's worth, the article is missing information on:
  • Nasser's diplomatic involvement
  • Palestinian political claims
  • Criticism of the rule of a monarchy in Jordan
  • Attempted Syrian intervention
  • Jordanian-Israeli diplomatic coordination
  • The balance and scale of civilian deaths
All this aside from a general pro-monarchist phrasing and citing on events. POV until these things are fixed. --Carwil 15:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


what is really missing is the fact that Hussein clearly massacred the palestinians without holding back at all, and this is the reason why the terrorism stopped in Jordan... and not in other places. Amoruso 15:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Precisely.
I have no problem with the description of those events as a massacre-analagous to what occurred in Hama during Hafez al-Assad's reign-and I thought the actions that King Hussein and the Hashemite monarchy pursued were absolutely correct, in hindsight.
If anything, those actions have been vindicated by history.
Still, I agree that the Palestinian position-no matter how baseless I personally believe it to be-should be outlined in full.

Ruthfulbarbarity 19:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs lots of work. Editors please try to avoid leading adjectives as much as possible and editorializing. This has been tagged as a highly notable article and I think it will make for fascinating reading once we have researched all of the facts, interpretations, and controversies. aharon42 (talk) 01:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Very biased in tone

I found this article extremely biased and non-neutral, seemingly written from the perspective of someone with the intention to ideologically defend the Jordanian position and against the Palestinians. It doesn't feel encyclopedia-quality at all. 18:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humus sapiens, are you a Jordanian extreme right-wing?

These stories about Black September are according to the king Hussein of Jordan only and supoort him as a vectim and hero, no ? it is very sarcastic, because no matter you do, you can't change the history and people always know the facts. I have put the stories according to the majority, and there were TV shows talked about and people know it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.0.83.120 (talk • contribs)

Please avoid making assumptions and personal judgements. "there were TV shows" is not a reliable source. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The TV political shows are based on references and many evidences. So tell me, your article is based on what ? Anyway, what is a shock to me that there are many people cry out for the neutrality in this page.

If what you are saying is right, there should not be a problem supporting it with reliable verifiable scholarly sources. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 10:50, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There are reliable verifiable scholarly sources books and reports in Arabic . But it is problem to find international reports and references about it, because who care about ? even in the Jordanian history school books they don't say anything about it, they always want to avoid this subject.

See WP:RS#Sources in languages other than English. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Point of translation?

What exactly is the point of the following translation? As far as I can tell, Yasser Arafat's "victory" does not have anything to do with "dignity".

"" Yasser Arafat claimed this as a victory (in Arabic, "karameh" means "dignity") ""

If anything, the translation should be moved to the beginning of the section on the Battle of Karameh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.224.123.145 (talk) 00:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the Battle at Karameh was on no way a military PLO victory. However, PLO recieved a propaganda boost. Both sides claiming victory is typical for the region. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Cite this part or I'll remove it

There is a very broad claim being made here about the Jordan Army posing as PLO and killing their own soldiers in an attempt to gain public support. I have never heard of that before, and the person who wrote it did not cite it. Someone please provide a reliable source, otherwise it sounds like speculation based on someone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.80.212 (talk) 04:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] restore the prestige of his monarchy.[2]

RE:It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the autonomy of Palestinian organizations and restore the prestige of his monarchy.[2] I am a new and neutral editor and just happended upon this page. It is absolutely POV to have the phrase "restore the prestige of his monarchy." It should be something like " and reestablish Hussein's political control.. Just a rough paraphrase of course. I will do some research to see how NYT or other newspapers describe the event and then cite it but I am a newbie so please help me cite properly and phrase properly. I will be happy to take practical advice from other editors.aharon42 (talk) 10:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Some sources.

Agence France Presse -- English September 23, 1999 20:08 GMT Jordan has "proof" Hamas threatening new Black September Thousands were killed and wounded in 10 days of bloody clashes in 1970 when King Hussein ordered the Jordanian army to suppress Palestinian guerrillas who were threatening to overthrow the Hashemite monarchy

The Associated Press September 7, 1985, Saturday, AM cycle The current PLO presence is the largest in Amman since 1970, when Hussein cracked down on the PLO's growing independence and to halt PLO raids that brought damaging Israeli reprisal attacks on Jordan. The Black September fighting of 1970 resulted from the crackdown and the PLO came close to toppling Hussein. In 1971, the king expelled the last of the guerrillas, with most of them winding up in Lebanon.

The Associated Press December 13, 1988, Tuesday, BC cycle Chronology of PLO Events September - King Hussein of Jordan, alarmed by growing Palestinian power, sent his army to drive the guerrillas out of Jordan. Arafat moved his base to Lebanon.


this is not exhaustive but clearly no one uses anything like "restore the prestige"

After doing a literature search on LexisNExis I suggest just quoting "King Hussein ordered the Jordanian army to suppress Palestinian guerrillas who were threatening to overthrow the Hashemite monarchy" It seems neutral and descriptive. I will wait for others to comment and then edit the article. aharon42 (talk) 10:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced, biased background

The "background" section is quite ridiculously biased and unsourced. None of the statements in the first three paragraphs of the section has any source and make quite general and unsubstantiated statements. Not to mention that the section starts with "In the late 1960s PLO set up a state within a state ...". Did the PLO drop from the sky into Jordan? The background should mention something about the 1967 war and previous happennings. Israel is not even mentioned, except as a victim of terrorist attacks from Jordan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsindian (talk • contribs) 09:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


[edit] Israeli involvement

Israel were directly involved, aiding King Hussein (sourced). Why was this removed? Can someone give me an explanation on that? --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 00:24, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Black_September_in_Jordan"