Talk:Buffalo English

Merge

Is there anyone besides myself who thinks that some of the information in this article should be merged into the Buffalo, New York article? I think "dialect" is definitely a misnomer. -- CJ Withers 08:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)\

I would agree with you about "dialect" being improperly used, but I think there are enough quirks to English in and around Buffalo, and enough other articles devoted to regional American Englishes that have even less to note around them, that this article can and should stay separate. Daniel Case 14:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hm. The quirks are only a handful and at least half the information is not unique to Buffalo. Hence, it is not notable and seems to reflect identity politics, i.e. vanity, more than anything else. This is similar to how there was a title for Vermont-New Hampshire English, which was just ludicrous because there's no such thing. It's New England bounded by the Connecticut River, not the two states mentioned that form a dialect/difference. If there's no dialect and just some quirks, there shouldn't be an encyclopedia (Wikipedia) article. "Buffalo English" is in fact a blurb, not an article.

Plus, Almost no one will be looking for this article under its current title. That's why it would be better to have a short line or two about what the distinctly Buffalo charactistics are. In fact, I lighted upon this article because I was searching for something entirely different. I'm convinced that more people will discover the quirks if they're read them on the Buffalo, New York page. -- CJ Withers 17:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

There is actually some real research on this, I know (just don't know where ... oh wait, some of it is referenced here in this old page put together by a friend of mine). If Pittsburgh English, which used to look like this, can become what it has become (or California English, for that matter), this one has the same potential (Although it probably should be renamed "Western New York English," since these things really aren't totally peculiar to Buffalo.

I would be especially careful about any change in this content that suggests the information in this article applies to western New York in general because it absolutely does not. As a native, lifelong Rochester resident, I can say virtually everything in this article does *not* apply in our area. There is no common "possessification" of most place names in this city, although many common destinations already end in an "s" (ie. Wegmans, Tops). Rochester does not preface route numbers with "the" in any instance, ending words in plural or "z" form is only common among the older native population and is not used by younger native speakers. I've never heard of anyone from this area ending a sentence with a location with "there," and we have no Canadian influences to our language. In fact, I am unpersuaded by the assertion that there is significant commonality between what is termed Buffalo English with Canadian English. The suggestion that one picks up accents based on exposure to television and radio programming definitely requires more citation. I question how many western NY residents spend their time with the CBC.

In Buffalo, more than you might guess, in my experience. Daniel Case 01:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Every city has their own regional phrases and "short hand," but they're not necessarily examples of a specific dialect. What Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse do share in common is a nasal sound, particularly among working classes, and often more apparent when you hear women speak. Rochester becomes "Raaachester," for instance. The significant Polish community in Buffalo does have an impact on the area's language, but far more so with the older population. This is less apparent with younger residents. -- 15 April 2007

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.226.207.178 (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

I should stop talking and update the article appropriately. Daniel Case 02:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, this page should become the reference section. Daniel Case 03:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

(Please excuse how I haven't tiered my answers; it's just to save space) It's interesting how you have the Sankoff/Cedregen article (I almost had a class with Cedregen, but my schedule didn't work). What's important about the sources on the page you site is that it often mentions the ethnic groups' pronunciations/contributions, etc. Just because they were observed IN Buffalo doesn't make it unique to Buffalo. Check out the article I reworked on Quebec English. I mention the Italian and Jewish communities and state clearly that their contributions are found wherever they're found. The Polish in Pgh and the Polish in Buffalo are Polish, and thus not specific to either of these places. In fact, I'm sure you can find the same things in NYC and some of my relatives who lived in Wallington, NJ the Polish epicenter of NJ.

The analogy that Buffalo should have an article of its own because Pittsburgh has one is specious. Pittsburgh is at the crossroads of several dialect areas plus has its own aspects. Though near the Canadian Border, Buffalo, however, is completely surrounded in/by a homogenous area and is also a part of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Logically, "Buffalo English" should figure on that page if there are any notable phonological phenomena. Again, minus the ethinic communities' practices, there is very little to justify a dialect and therefore an article. Btw, it's common in NYC to hear "possessification", especially with department store or nightclub names: Spectrum's, K-mart's, Limelight's (and probably by analogy with Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Sears, etc. more than anything else). This practice might merit its own article, but again, more sources would need to be found. Hope to find out more on what you think... -- CJ Withers 06:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe, you seem to have the creds to say these things, but I must say that, having grown up in (and currently living in) part of the NYC area I have never heard that possessification to anything like the degree I heard it when I lived in Buffalo.

I would suggest that you be a bit more familiar with the near-Midwest before making broad statements as to the ethnic impact on local speech. "Polish" in Buffalo means a lot more than "Polish" in Cleveland. I also lived there for a while, and while the two cities do share the Northern Cities Vowel Shift (it is, in fact, a little bit more pronounced in NE Ohio), there are not the peculiarities noted in this article and by every other observer of Buffalo English, peculiarities which have been traced to the Polish population. (The only difference from my native NY/NJ English which I heard was dropping the definite article for some things (i.e., high school kids in Cleveland go to prom rather than to the prom as they do even in Buffalo, and that's a phenomenon heard elsewhere in the Midwest as well).

Unlike Cleveland or Pittsburgh, where the Poles are just one of many Eastern and Central European immigrant populations, in Buffalo Polish is it. Pulaski Day and Dyngus Day are big local events, as big (if not bigger) than St. Patrick's Day.

The Irish, Italian and German populations are also important and shaped the region, but as you note in your Quebec English article their local linguistic contributions are not geographically unique. But I did get the feeling (and Tasman seems to note this, then again he was a friend of mine at one time) that there are some more widespread phonologic impacts of Polish-American in Buffalo not present in Cleveland (granted, I didn't live in Parma (which is Cleveland's Polish center) so I don't know if they have.

As for specious articles in this vein, I'm also amused that there's a Northeast Pennsylvania English, as I live adjacent to that region and I don't hear anything unusual there. But it has notes and everything. Daniel Case 04:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm...I agree and disagree with you, and maybe that's why I find this an interesting and fruitful discussion. Let's get something straight, first. I wouldn't use my credentials simply to justify an observation, a finding or a truth. However, it is my experience and methodology that help me do my job. Now I'm going to answer some of the things you said just above.

Logically, there is no argument about Buffalo Enlgish via how big the Pulaski Day Parade is. With such logic, then NYC variations would be greater due to the number of Poles plus the number of Polish descendants plus the fact that (if it's still done), the color of the lights of the Empire State Building are changed to red and white for Pulaski Day. If anything, a large or overwhelmingly influential linguistic contribution by Poles is notable, then an article on language phenomena should be labeled thus, no? For example, imagine "Polish influence on English in Buffalo"; or maybe it should be more useful in galvanizing the currently weak Pinglish article, which mentions nothing about contributions to true English. Maybe a better reworking could be done in collobaration with these articles: List of English words of Polish origin , a.k.a. Words of Polish origin. So, with guidelines, it needs to be determined if X phenomenon is by Poles, by descendants of Poles, by non-descendants of Poles, by all Buffalo (area) residents, not attested to anywhere else, etc. The same goes for other unique things. Otherwise, there's no merit for an article and in the meantime, I'll keep on observing a good friend from Buffalo (whom I've known for 7 years) and who has the NCVS and is of Polish descent. (Nothing notable in his speech, save for the "K-mart's" thing, which, again, made me think of NYC.)

I couldn't agree with you more on the fact that there are many inappropriate or misleading articles on American Dialects, never mind languages in general. Consult Juantania. It might sound good to some but it's a total fake. As for Northeastern PA, I, too, was surprised. However, it would be interesting to know how much of its difference still exists and to what extent it can be found among the local population. Remember, there are vanity pages for language varieties too, especially when someone wants to showcase their thesis abstract/summary. For example, even though I do know that there are (notice the plural) New York Area English(es) (I prefer to say "accents", not "English" or "dialect"; you'll note that that's how I classify it in the English dialects box on MySandbox page), virtually all the data about them dates back two or three generations. That's hardly helpful knowing how much human migration/movements, radio, television, cable and even podcasting have a leveling effect. In fact, that's probably why I barely have a regional accent aside from an American one. What's more, the current Mayor of New York Bloomberg flip-flops in his own idolect. His r's are very inconsistent. This leaves one at a loss to say if his speech is either rhotic or non-rhotic. Btw, even Queen Elizabeth II's pronunciation has evolved over the decades.

All I'm asking for is rigor and standards so that quality can be raised and accesibilty increased. I'm of the opinion that guidelines and collaboration are the keys to making the extremely disparate articles on dialects and "Englishes" worthy. -- CJ Withers 05:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, my point there was that the Polish influence on Buffalo's speech is present because there's a large Polish immigrant community which didn't totally drop the native language (Even though most of the kids have moved away from the old neighborhoods on Buffalo's East Side, sometimes you still see apartments advertised in Polish (though I'm told this is now really sort of a racist thing, on the assumption that blacks cannot read Polish nor figure out that that's a way to try to keep them from inquiring about the apartment) and the schools still offer Polish as a language (or at least they still were into the 1990s)).

And the point I got away from making was that this influence did carry over into the greater speech community. Some of the old-country immigrants used to make sure their kids had the accent even though they were native English speakers. Not all of the peculiarities survived, but some did (and you can still hear a touch of it in some otherwise plain-vanilla NCVS speakers of strong Polish descent in their 40s or so when they get really emotional when talking). Many of these people were among the first local radio and TV personalities; thus some of their speech patterns spread beyond the enthnic community.

Again, I totally agree with you about dialects ... perhaps these articles should be titled "American English in Buffalo," "American English in Northeastern Pennsylvania," etc. Maybe what needs to be done is some sort of WikiProject:English, under the WP:LANG auspices, to get the standardization and quality you seek. You do have a point.

I would be the first to volunteer to help but I'm busy with enough ongoing things here as it is. Daniel Case 18:22, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I found most points of this article to be true, having lived in this area my whole life. The article would be better to cite that there is a big generational difference in speach. It is true that the older Polish community is responsible for most of the language differences and they have not seemed to pass that on strongly to latter generations. However, I find that the biggest mistake in the article is the lack of discussion concerning the 'nasally' sound that is prominent in buffalo area speach. Based on experience of living here, that seems to be what makes buffalo speach the most unique. Talk to anyone in the state past the Rochester area and the majority will say you have an accent that is differnt than Standard American English. I have had family that can identify people from this area when they do business just from a few variations in their vocabulary and the slightly prominent nasal sound of their voice. Anyone who disputes the possesification of places needs to listen closer to someone speaking. Also, anyone who thinks 'yous' is not common needs to listen closer to someone speaking. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bluefisshie (talk • contribs) 00:14:32, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

By "nasally sound" I assume you mean the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, which is discussed in detail elsewhere and too complicated to describe completely in this article. And actually, it extends at least as far east as Utica (and as far west as Milwaukee!). AJD 05:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

-- As a Canadian who's been living in Buffalo for 3 years, I find this highly questionable: Speakers unfamiliar with the specific Buffalo accent often perceive a speaker of Buffalonian English to be speaking Canadian English or the same Northern U.S. accent lampooned somewhat by the movie Fargo.

The most distinctive characteristics of Western NY speech (the flat a's and hard a's described in the Guide to Buffalo English, the flattening of "i" sounds to "e" sounds, e.g. "I ben there") are sharply different from Canadian speech (which almost goes in the opposite direction with some of these vowels) to my ears and those of many others. (These are covered in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift article, I agree.) I think "Buffalo English" sounds far closer to this: http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=114 than to this: http://accent.gmu.edu/searchsaa.php?function=detail&speakerid=541 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ubss347 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete This Article

This article has no purpose. The Inland Northern American English article covers this. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This Article Needs Some Reliable Sources

I'm sorry, but "The Guide to Buffalo English" is simply not a reliable source. Thegryseone (talk) 23:25, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I was sort of wondering when someone would say that. I wasn't responsible for adding it as a source; although I added a fair amount of this years ago before we got serious about sourcing. Dan Tasman, a friend of mine who wrote it, is a very observant native Buffalonian and I second many of his insights but I think he'd back away from considering this scholarly. Daniel Case (talk) 04:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to be a killjoy. I realize that this is your article, and that you probably created it just for fun. My mom does the whole "Rite-Aid's" thing with certain business names, but we're from the Midwest (far from Buffalo). I think it's just a matter of her assuming there's an apostrophe and an "s" at the end of certain business names even if that's not the case. However, everything I just said would be considered "original research", and this is Wikipedia. Thegryseone (talk) 04:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Please, don't consider it "my" article, not only because of the linked policy but also because this has had so many little things added to it over the last two years that it's really the horse designed by committee. It could really use some genuine academic sourcing. Daniel Case (talk) 14:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't "The Guide to Buffalo English" fall under WP:SPS. It looks rather self published/unsourced. Again, I'm a reader, not much of an editor, so I'll let the more dedicated hash it out, but I think it's a valid question. 69.207.47.45 (talk) 03:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like a decent source if that's what you're saying. Thegryseone (talk) 03:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent trimming

Thegryseone! I really admire you taking the time and effort to remove all the unsourced nonsense from this article. You recently removed this sentence:

The zone in which Buffalonian English is found is a region extending to Buffalo on the west, Rochester on the east, Lake Ontario to the north, and Bradford, Pennsylvania to the south and roughly corresponds to the radio and television broadcast market of Buffalo.

with the comment "Buffalo is in the much larger Inland North region; sorry." This is certainly true, but it doesn't make the removed sentence false; there are other features of Buffalo English apart from the Northern Cities Shift and other Inland North features. For instance, you could define the Buffalo dialect area as the sub-region of the Inland North where pop is used instead of soda (excluding New York east of Rochester) and the word elementary is pronounced with secondary stress on the penultimate syllable (excluding, as far as I know, the Inland North west of Pennsylvania), and you'd arrive at exactly the area described in that sentence. I'm not saying you were wrong to delete it, as it is unsourced and/or original research; but I think it's true, and it could go back in if we find a proper source; there is a smaller region that shares more linguistic traits with Buffalo than the Inland North as a whole. AJD (talk) 00:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll accept constructive criticism. Thanks for explaining yourself. I respect you for being a bonafide linguist; however, pop is used throughout the Inland North (with the notable exception of the Milwaukee area and other parts of Wisconsin). I guess what you're saying is that in the other parts of the Inland North where pop is used as the generic name for a soft drink, elementary is pronounced the usual way; thus, the Buffalo dialect area is the only place where both of these features can be found, not just one of them. Keep in mind, though, that with this new definition, it needs to be made clear that neither one of those features is unique to Buffalo English. What's unique is that they are found side by side. That definition is a bit more complex than some. Thegryseone (talk) 01:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Another problem with that sentence is that it was implying that TV and radio influence the way people speak, which you and I know is not true. Thegryseone (talk) 01:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I would dare say that the majority of lingustic quirks are mostly from the older generation, the ones that cling more to their immigrant past. Hearing someone adding a posessive (Kmart's) is VERY rare, again, except in the older generation. And by older generation, I'm talking about pre- to early boomers. Also, I can't say with any degree of certanty that I've heard ANYONE use the extra 'there' in a statement. In addition, Rochester is normally pronounced Rah-chester, Not Raaaa-chester. It's a short flat a, not a long one. This article is really a parody of a Buffalo accent, not a reflective picture. I say kill it, just because it's not very accurate. 69.207.47.45 (talk) 02:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about Verifiability, not truth. If you disagree with something you must find reliable sources to back up your claims. --Pwnage8 (talk) 02:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, how about that one of the sources is, well, almost 10 years old, written by someone who " left the Niagara Frontier (for a second time) at the end of 1996". If I post a random web page, does it now become a source just like the "Guide to Buffalo English", which is the only source that mentions personification (the second page, is a pointer to the guide page). I would say that it's a totally valid arugment that I've lived my life 'near' Buffalo, and not specifically 'in' Buffalo, but in that same vein, something that was last updated almost 10 years ago is not much of a source for something that's as fluid as language. Doubley so when it's the only source of some of the information. Again, I'm just throwing it out there, as a Wikipedia reader, not as an editor. Also, if the article for Buffalo NY can't even be bothered to point to this page, what's the point of the page? 69.207.47.45 (talk) 03:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly not that uncommon. During the time I lived there I heard a lot of superfluous "there" in sentences. More common in working-class people. Daniel Case (talk) 03:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe you, and I have heard some of this stuff in the Midwest as well. However, Wikipedia is all about reliable sources. You, I and everyone else have to back up our claims, as Pwner was saying. I think the most salient features of Buffalo speech aren't unique to Buffalo, but instead they are found throughout the Inland North. Thegryseone (talk) 03:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Just so we don't get it twisted, I'm not out to "pwn" other editors ;) I've had two incidents in the last two months where my name has rubbed people the wrong way, one of them with another contributor to this page. I've never had this problem before, and I'll probably have to put a disclaimer on my page like Keeper76, because I don't want any negative perceptions spreading. Now, greysone, I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way at all. I was just looking out for the page, because I don't like it when articles are culled without any content being added. I was just wondering if you have anything else in mind for the page? --Pwnage8 (talk) 04:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, that's all right. I was just being facetious, Pwnboy. I didn't take any offense whatsoever. I wouldn't care if this article disappeared. Thegryseone (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

LOL "Pwnboy". I might just take it upon myself to add to the article then. --Pwnage8 (talk) 23:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Referencing Freeways

Should there be reference to the way Buffalonians refer to freeways? In Buffalo, people refer to the freeways as "The 290" or "the 33", similar to people in Los Angeles. Jzcrandall (talk) 02:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That was in there; I think it was taken out for lack of sourcing. Daniel Case (talk) 14:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)