Talk:Cuba/Archive 14

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Archiving

This page seems desperately in need of some archiving of old discussions. -- Beardo 15:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. I've also created an archive by topic page which is accessed on the archive template. I remind everyone, including myself because I'm as guilty as anyone, that the use of talk pages just for the purpose of partisan talk about the main subject is frowned upon. Wikipedia is not a soapbox; it's an encyclopedia. In other words, we are here to talk about the article, not about the subject, as per Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. --Zleitzen 00:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmmmmmm it may appear to some that this change in policy is so convenient El Jigue 9-3-06

EJ - this isn't a change of policy. And quite frankly, I doubt anyone is going to stop you continuing on your own sweet way. Let's call it going over the facts and opinions to work out what should actually go in the article ? -- Beardo 02:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

B If you say it is it must be so (:>). By the way did you notice what day it is today in Cuban history. El Jigue 9-4-06

Let's see if Z gets annoyed with us cluttering up his page ! Are you talking about Batista's 4 of September Movement ? -- Beardo 20:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

B That took you far too much time besides it was a coup not a movement. I think it was timed for US laborday, so it would pass almost unnoticed. It is my opinion that was the beginning of the disaster. However, Machado was gone but the New Dealers in Washington and Welles in Havana, who could not leave well enough alone, wanted "a man of the people" in charge. Batista was soon killing people, even on our land. He killed quite a few whose deaths "caballo muerto en la carretera" were never recorded in official histories. Usually only deaths in Havana count, strange it does not matter what color you are if you kill. BTW found a reference that states that not only Enrique or is it 'Jesus' Enrique Lister, but also Comandante Contreras (Vittorio Vitale) trained the militia for the Bay of Pigs and other repressive activities. Putting a former General of the Soviet Army in charge really accounts for the very high casualities among the Castro militias, and I was going to stick the blame on Castro:

Fernandez, Frank (interviewed by Larry Gambone) 1997 An interview with a Cuban Anarchist. In: ANY TIME NOW 6, 7, [1] [2]. Fragment taken from second part “At the beginning of the Revolution, 1959-60, some (anarchists of course) were detained and let go. Augustin Souchy was in Havana in those days and in a conversation with Abelardo Iglesias, Manuel de la Mata Manuel de la Mata and Salvador Garcia, all members of the CNT-FAI during the Spanish Revolution, told his comrades of the recent visit to Cuba by "old friends" from the Spanish and Italian Communist Party, Enrique Lister and the infamous Vittorio Vidale, invited by the Castro regime. Souchy warned them of the inevitable persecution from the new secret police in which Lister and Vidale were involved. The CNT comrades were involved in certain "counter-revolutionary" activities and with the experience of Spain behind them, they knew how to escape on time - with the protection of a Latin American embassy.” El Jigue 9-6-06

Do you know if this last item is correct.

This seems to be correct. Lister is mentioned (as training the Cuban militia) by other sources. However, this is the first time I have seen that the assassin and Italian Senator Vittorio Vidale is mentioned in this context, although he is known to have visted Cuba. Escape through a Latin American embassy was common in the early 1960s. El Jigue 9-21-06

No idea, I'm afraid. With regard to 4 de septiembre, it seems they had their own flag: http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/cu_h.html#1933 -- Beardo 04:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

B: That is an interesting site however there are errors, e.g. Machado left at least a month before September 4, 1933. Even Wikipedia admits that [3]. El Jigue 9-7-06

And of course, wikipedia is always correct ! jejejeje -- Beardo 17:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dengue again?

There appears to be another severe Dengue outbreak in Cuba [4], despite apparent desperate attempts to fumigate the vector [5]. El Jigue 9-7-06

Indeed - regular fumigations in all parts of Havana, anectdotally many cases (in city and in country). -- Beardo 17:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

B: The real danger is Denge's far more lethal cousin Yellow Fever which spreads the same way. In the 18th century it stopped the English first reaching Santiago de Cuba from Guantanamo (they called it Cumberland) most of the troops seemed to die en route. Then Yellow Fever essentially drove the English out of Havana in 1963, for they had lost most of their troops and their colonials from the US. Of course there were those Welsh miners who died by the droves in El Cobre, but then they "spoke funny" and thus do not count (somebody in England "was doing a book" on that but I have not heard more on it). Maximo Gomez was successful at luring Spanish soldiers, straight in from Spain, to this death, and yellow fever accounted for a high proportion of the Spanish losses during the struggles for independence. Cubans, like my ancestors, acquired resistence during childhood, when perhaps they had some protection transferred from their mothers. A friend has a book in preparation on this same topic which of course is not covered properly in Wikipedia articles, for there is no explanation on how this fever, plus the northwinds (which pushed ships on the coral reefs) in the Winter and the hurricanes in the Summer had a major role in keeping other colonial powers out of Cuba.

By the way my new theory on Castro is that he was pregnant or had liposucction, otherwise how do you explain that sudden, massive loss of weight. El Jigue 9-7-06

That would explain why Hugo Chavez was wielding the gift of his "Bolivarian Sword" at Castro during his bedside visit the other day, EJ. If one needs candidates for the father of Castro's new baby, one need look no further than the Venezuelan President. --Zleitzen 10:19, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Sabrina and Castro

This link between Sabrina and Castro [6] may be nothing but a publicity stunt. However, it made me smile as it apparently sinks the jesting pregnacy theory (:>) xe xe El Jigue 9-9-06

Not sure that even fits in to the Castro page. (And the - what is it - ? 14? children by a variety of women lines up with that. But neither would go against a later sex-change. Though the beard is hard to explain - false ?) -- Beardo 19:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

To an admin: Please change this

This article is in the category "CIA operations", althought various CIA operations happened on Cuba, Cuba is not a CIA operation. --Conker the squirrel 06:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Cleaned and dusted off a couple of other rogue categories as well.--Zleitzen 10:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, that did not need an admin to do - most registered users could.

Z - have you re-inserted those categories in the relevant sub-articles ? -- Beardo 11:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

They should already be there Beardo.--Zleitzen 11:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

______________________

The topic has been sealed (uneditable for newly registered/unknown users), therefore, I cannot contribute to the accuracy of the "Cuban file" - thus, I ask the admin to do so. I came to recognize a mistake: According to your file on "José Julián Martí Pérez," he died on 19 May 1895. However, the Cuban article says "On 15 July 1895 rebellion broke out and the independence party, led by Tomás Estrada Palma and the poet José Martí, proclaimed Cuba an independent republic — Martí was killed shortly thereafter and has become Cuba’s undisputed national hero." May->June->July. Please correct the misleading information.

Thank you,Susanna (Hungary)

Elian

Should anything be thrown in about Elian Gonzalez?

Maybe in a Controversial Events section? SkePtiKaL 19:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

No. No controversial events involving him took place in Cuba.

Raul's baggage and personality

It seems that Raul's baggage and personality may require a ruthless crackdown in Cuba, if he is to stay in power [7]. Note, although officially denied by the newspaper, the Miami Herald, under new management, appears to be taking a strong "pro-Castro" stance. El Jigue 9=13-06

Or, to quote the article "Experts said Raúl Castro may be forced to open up Cuba's economy if he hopes to stay in power." "He needs to provide more food, transportation and housing. Because he is not as popular as Fidel, he cannot ask for trust and support in exchange for nothing." -- Beardo 22:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I notice the Herald fired a group of journalists the other day for taking money from the US government to write negative stories about Cuba. One of the journos was our man in Buenos Aires, Juan Manuel Cao who was in the shouting match with Castro on the balconey. I seem to remember Castro shouting something about "mercenary! Who is paying you!" etc before he was ushered away to have his stomach re-grafted. It seems we have our answer.[8] Apologies for completely disregarding my own edict at the top of the page! --Zleitzen 22:18, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: They were paid by Radio and TV Marti for discussion and reporting on Cuba. You also probably noted that Castro knew about it way before it became public, supporting other very well substantiated accusations that Castro spies had access to Herald info. In addition, that Herald report is much in doubt for many other reasons. For instance it seems that the Herald leadership knew about the payments years ago and gave its Ok [9]. For a good many full discussions of that matter see [10]. I think there will soon be a retraction of accusations, and perhaps the new editor Jesus Diaz will be forced to resign. One notes that even the most ardent supporters of the firing are beginning to rationalize their back tracking [11] [12]. El Jigue 9-13-06

Anyway, EJ. What kind of population figure would you give for the Taino before Columbus arrived? I've read many differing reports ranging from a few thousand to 100,000. What kind of figure is most likely in your mind.--Zleitzen 22:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: As you say estimates vary at lot. However there had been people in Cuba way perhaps thousands before the Tainos, such the Siboney, "Guanacabibes," Guis, etc. Thus, given the mild climate and the abundance of food, the time they had been in Cuba, as well as an idea of my ancestors' joyous lechery and I would say 100,000 is a good figure (I think this is based on Padre de las CAsas figures diminished by some factor). One could probably calculate it based up a distribution of size of known inhabited areas starting at the larger towns such as Bayamo and Guanabacoa, and extrapolating to smaller places, single family residences, fishing camps, and the wandering groups. One notes that Columbus and other explorers kept meeting the inhabitants apparently where ever they went. Yet, until solid calculations are done we really do not know. El Jigue 9-13-06

Thanks EJ. I gather that Padre de las Casas was very much a protector figure of the native groups, so it would make sense that his estimates would be on the high side. I also didn't realise how political the Taino issue was until I looked into it in detail - various denials by historians over the years probably based on cooked Spanish records, countered by those who were keen to promote Taino identity at the expense of Afro-Cubans in the 19th century. Who were the "guis"?--Zleitzen 01:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: the Guis are said to be the "wanderers" and from thus the town now the city of Guisa eastern Cuba gets its name. The argument kind of runs the other way than you presented it. Apparently escaped slaves and "Taínos" got together as Cimarron (Maroon in English) in the mountain hideaways called Palenques. Thus many of Taíno descent had darker skins; those who had lighter skins were considered "White", especially if they became "important" in the community, and had the Pureza de Sangre documentation sworn out by their neighbors. It is a fallacy to judge race merely on pigmentation, for instance Batista, as did a number of Mambí leaders in the Wars for Independence claimed and were considered Siboney or "Indian" except by ignorant or racist foreigners who merely observed their darker skins and made judgment. When one compares the pigmentation of a sample population Haitians with one composed of Cuban “Blacks” one can readily see how much dilution of pigmentation has already occurred. However, even to call Africans “Blacks” is to lump a great number of very diverse ethnic strains, some of whom, perhaps even twice or more times, arrived in the Americas before Columbus. El Jigue 9-13-06

Nuevo Herald essentially retracts, while Miami Herald editor still supporting purge of anti-Castro reporters

Miami and the Cuban -exile and Cuban-American community and intellectual leaders make the internet come a-fire with protests about the Miami Herald purge of anti-Castro reporters alleging that payments for appearances on Radio and TV Marti are conflict of interest. The Nuevo Herald, the Spanish language sister paper, has now conceded that such payments as those of the "Voice of America" are a standard practice [13]. Meanwhile at the English language Miami Herald executive editor Tom Fiedler still maintains his firings are appropriate [14]. El Jigue 9-14-06

The journalists were working for El Nuevo Herald, so unless they are taken back, the executives of that paper haven't changed - they are just publishing an article reporting different views, surely ? -- Beardo

B: The situation is in flux, the Miami Herald is being criticised because of its use of known Castro "Agents of Influence" without labeleing them as such. The publisher Jesus Diaz wrote a semi-apology but did not rehire, although the paper now carries critical columns related to the problem. El Jigue 9-17-06

Standard of living

Is it true that Cuba has one of the highest standards of living in latin america? Free health care, long life expectancy,no ghettos especialy when compared to say... Mexico, Columbia,Brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.66.2.43 (talk • contribs) on 03:25, 16 September 2006

Obviously the Havana's slums are not ghettos because the Cuban government says they are not (:>) taking photos of such circumstances is forbidden, foreigners who do this are expelled. The statistics you mention are not considered reliable since they are generated by the Cuban government which outlaws criticism and these reports are published by international agencies without change. Thus one should view all this with great caution. It seems that there is an epidemic of dengue under way right now, apparently the Cuban government cannot convince either the mosquitoes or the virus that this is counter revolutionary. El Jigue 9-17-06

Dengue is effecting much of the Caribbean. The Mosquitos live in rivers and streams and in order to fully irradicate them you'd have to pollute the stream to kill the larvae. CaribDigita 15:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Taking photos is only forbidden for east European models who are suspected of having a political agenda, and the like. -- Beardo 13:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Predictably jaundiced answer from El J. Yes the comparison is true. The slums of which El J writes exist: run down housing, small shanty towns of the poorer rural incomers to the city, but they are exceptions to the general ok standard of housing and neighbourhood conditions, nothing like the massive ghettos to which you refer. The standards of health care may be pretty basic, but they are free, available to all and sufficient to maintain an expectation of good health. The material wealth of the average cuban is far below western levels, but the internal tensions found in all western countries are also far lower, resulting in a very easygoing and peaceful society, which IMO more than makes up for material lacks. MichaelW 02:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael now let us discuss ration books, caloric input, protein consumption, clothing allowances etc. Please quote official Cuban government figures El Jigue 9-18-06

My dear El J, I fail to see the point in using figures you have just damned as unreliable. Shall we discuss the reports of individual travellers who have been visiting Cuba these last 15 years, staying with cuban families all over the island. Their reports may be anecdotal, but added together certain tendencies become clear, and few of those support your apocalyptic view. MichaelW 13:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes and the visitors' kind alert minders. I mean who could possible object to almost 50 years of rationing? El Jigue 9-18-06

Oh take yr paranioa to bed - freedom of movement on the island is little restricted for independent visitors, especially those with cuban friends. I'm sure there are plenty of people fed up with the limitations of the state provided basics. Don't see how that affects the answer to the original question, that it is true that "Cuba has one of the highest standards of living in latin america? Free health care, long life expectancy,no ghettos especialy when compared to say... Mexico, Columbia,Brazil".MichaelW 16:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

UN Ranking on the standard of living in Cuba: 52nd (10th highest in the Americas).. considering the island is under an economic embargo it is still doing better than many... CaribDigita 15:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael and Carib why don't you place that stuff in the article. I really enjoy it when Wikipedia "reports" such idiotic things, it points out how absurd things get around here. BTW Good old Hugo is providing Cuba with new housing. Wow!!!!!!!!!! BTW 2 Fever tranmitting mosquitoes do not commonly breed in running water, such species Anopheles and Culex prefer little pools of stagnant water, such as provided by the cracked drains and ruptured mains of the water supply system in Havana. In addition, in running water the titi and the guajacones (usually Gambusia) eat the mosquito larvae. P.S. The word "Cuban" is capitalized in English but not in Spanish. xe xe El Jigue 9-18-06

Except Dengue is transmitted by Aedes aegypti which prefers clean water (notwithstanding the TV campaign against old tyres and plastic containers). -- Beardo 13:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

B: that will teach me to write from memory; however, there are other mosquitos who act as Dengue vectors and prefer tree holes [15]. However, it seems you might also be in error as to egg laying sites "In Asia and the Americas, Aedes aegypti breeds primarily in man-made containers like earthenware jars, metal drums and concrete cisterns used for domestic water storage, as well as discarded plastic food containers, used automobile tyres and other items that collect rainwater. In Africa it also breeds extensively in natural habitats such as tree holes and leaf axils" [16]. such is quoted in other sites e.g. [17]. El Jigue 9-19-06

As to living conditions in Cuba one might read [18] El Jigue 9-19-06

Must write a hundred times "Anopheles is the malaria mosquito vector" [19]. Culex, Raul's favorite, is a vector for West Nile fever [20]m and St. Louis Encephalitis [21]. El Jigue 9-19-06

Your LA Times "living conditions in Cuba" article is a treat, EJ. "more than 50 people wait along a potholed sidewalk and broken curb for a bus that wheezes up to the stop already full". It is reassuring to read that the daily British past-time has gone global. --Zleitzen 08:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: it is a matter of degree, one doubts that British would be willing to wait anywhere near as long (sometimes hours) as Cubans are required to do for buses that the Cubans are forces to ride in. Prior to Castro the bus system of Havana was very large and quite efficient. One should keep in mind that the pot holes in Britain do not commonly last long enough to breed mosquitoes. El Jigue 9-20-06

I don't know that I can compare Cuba's conditions to those of a Latin America as a whole . . . that would require a helluva lot of research. As far as Cuba is concerned. Conditions are pretty rough, unless you're lucky enough to be working for a foreign company. Tyically, these outfits pay under-the-counter wages in foreign currency (used to be dollars before the govt. began taxing the hell out of them) in addition to regular Cuban currency. This allowed some folks to live slightly better than your average Cuban. As for ghettos, well, sure, Cuba has widespread poverty. That's common knowledge however. What's interesting is doing the comparison between pre and post Castro Cuba. If you look at the UN studies from the 50's and compare standard of living then with today, it's rather shocking. Healthcare and education were already provided by the govt - that wasn't an invention of the Castro government, the Cuban peso was for a while valued above the U.S. dollar, per capita income was rather high and the govt was building up the infrastructure in the country's more rural areas which historically had been ignored during the years of Spanish domination. Of course, this isn't to say that Fulgencio Batista was a prince. All of that national prosperity came at a price, namely the suspension of the 1940 constitution and harsh methods of silencing dangerous opposition that were sometimes carreid out extra-judicially. As for healthcare in Cuba today. Of course, we all know it's still free of charge. Problem is that the system is decrepit and medical supplies are often hard to come by. Hospitals are absolutely filthy unless you're a government worker or know someone who can get you into the more modern facilities (CIMEQ).

Troubles in Cuba: dengue and coordination with Iranian terror

Unofficial reports coming out of Cuba now talk of hundreds of recent deaths and thousands ill from Dengue which is spreading through the island [22] However, what is perhaps more disturbing are reports from Israel intelligence, usually friendly to the Cuban government to the point where members of the government investing there, now talk of Raul Castro's collaboration with Iranian terror groups [23] El Jigue 9-20-06

The Israeli government is one of only two or three that vote for the US embargo at the UN. Cuba has denounced Israeli actions in Lebanon. (Interestingly that article doesn't differentiate between Raul and Fidel). -- Beardo 17:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

B: Perhaps it is the Iranian penetration of Latin America that concerns the Israeli's a lot more. Previously Hugo Chavez has said that Venezuelan blood would be spilled to defend Iran if US attacks the Persian country. Chavez did not mention what the Venezuelans thought of that (:>). Still Chavez and Raul seem most busy supporting Iran [24]. The Cuban government has an extensive network of agents in the US, that the FBI mostly watches, and every so often arrests one or two, to make a point. Venezuela has an embrionic still mostly PR type activity in the US. Either would be most useful to Iran, and antithetical to Israeli interests. El Jigue 9-20-06

In general I think that Raul is riding a tiger in Cuba if he increases repression more he risks a blow up, if he loosens a little, rivals will try and take his place, and public protests will grow far stronger. In general the future does not look good for him. I shudder at the thought of what may happen, I see a coming period in which Cuban government agents will be dragged throught the streets by Cubans long angered by a very heavy handed bureaucracy. On the other hand, given what Raul has done to others, perhaps this is what he deserves. You might take the chance to read Raul's own writings on how he killed other rebels (he called them bandits etc but we only have his word for it) against Batista when he established the "Second Front" see Castro, Raúl 1969 Diario de Campaña. Travesía de la Sierra Maestra al Segundo Frente “Frank País” In: La Sierra y el Llano. Casas de las Américas Havana pp. 201-257, El Jigue 9-20-06,

As a result of this Raul's forces comprised of escopeteros and city youth were by July 1958 two to three times larger than Fidel's. Stewart, Allen C. 1958 111. Memorandum From the Deputy Director of the Office of Middle American Affairs (Allen C. Stewart) to the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Snow) [1] State department 1958 Cuban Situation, July 24th 1958 [25] “Another American friend, whose salesmen travel all over the island, reported that assassinations both by rebel and Government forces are occurring every day. This activity, details of which are not publicly known because of the tight censorship, extends to all provinces… Raul Castro broke out of the Sierra Maestra with 150 men and he now has a force estimated to number between 2,000 and 3,000 men. (two to three times the estimate for Fidel Castro)”

Dengue Photograph

There is a photograph of mosquito fumigation taken by a supporter of the Cuban government at this site [26] Note that the people doing the spraying (apparently dusting with a white dust carrier) and the white smoke/dust suggest that they may be desperate enought to be using environmentally harmful DDT. There is a picture of an old Jutia [27]. Cuban bus in Spiritus Sancti (middle provinces) [28] Vista of middle province mountains, where much of the "War Against the Bandits" was fought [29]. Topes to Collantes was built by Batista in memory of a brother who died of TB. Much of the rebellious population was moved to closed cities in Pinar del Rio. Here is a photo of the University of Havana escalinata [30] This used to be the place where demonstrations against the Batista government started, then they went down San Lazaro towards Infanta. It seems strange that the total enrollment is listed as 6,000 in the 1950s and 60s the number 17,000 comes to mind. Again the problem of pot holes [31] gives places to the mosquitoes to breed. The boy without shoes shown here [32] is exposed to hookworm, which enter the blood stream through the feet. In the US during the 1930s and 1940s hookworm was known as the "germ of lazyness," and was eliminated by flush toilets and sanitary latrines and footwear. This photo [33] most probably shows the Cuban Ballet founded by communist Alicia Alonzo, way before Castro took power. I found this photograph interesting [34], not because the ox is about ready to dump, but that it shows the forest encroaching on arable land. This photo [35] shows the reinforced concrete high rises built in the 1950s. Lucia Newman once of CCN now of El Jazzira had an apartment in the large building in foreground La Focsa. El Jigue 9-21-06

"And this is El J, your downbeat guide to the glories that are Cuba - every situation can be milked for its most negative implications, every photo reveals a disaster in the making."

El J, your information about the land of your birth is often utterly out-dated. I'd suggest you spend some time bringing yourself up to date. Meanwhile rather than worry about the encroachment of forest on arable land you could check out via the web the development of agro-forestry as a deliberate farming system. [36] [37] [38] MichaelW 10:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Dengue is a Caribbean-wide situation:

The Caribbean Epidemiology Centre (CAREC)

http://www.carec.org/data/dengue/dengue_virus_types_1997-2000.htm

In all Caribbean islands they say to get rid of standing water around the property. Make sure there's no tires or things like that or buckets which can hold water... In places where you can't get rid of standing water throw in Kerosene Oil since the Mosquitos cannot penetrate the upper oil-film lyer etc. And in terms of Dengue fogging they tell people to leave windows open and so forth. All the stuff outlined in Cuba is being repeated over and over in other Caribbean islands.[39]

Hookworm diagnosis by photograph? This is a *bit* extreme. Just because the dog is in the shot going into the house doesn't mean the child is going to get hookworm. To tell you the truth there's many--- many times I see people bringing their dogs to the beach in America too even though you really aren't supposed to--, for the same reason but people still do it. All it takes is one bowl movement in the sand by an infective dog for someone to get infected. This isn't a Cuba only situation. Do you have sources that have something factual about Cuba & hookworm like statistics of actual infections?

One from PAHO Demgue outbreaks in Cuba via PAHO -- an overall PAHO profile about Cuba -- CaribDigita 13:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

As I have pointed out repeatedly, hookworm infection enters humans through bare feet, it was not the dog (it is my understanding that canine hookworm is a less effective parasite of humans) I worried about, it was the spill from old and ruptured sewers in the cities and human waste on soil surface in rural environments. However, beach sand since it is subject to the heat caused by unshielded solar radiation is less likely to harbor the parasite. Perhaps it would be wise rather than trying to deny or minimize hook-worm, dengue etc in Cuba, to point out the significance of these dangers in the hope that something effective will eventually something will be done. Relying on Cuban government statistics generated by a bureaucracy that is only upwardly responsible, absolutely vulnerable to repression by superiors, and not subject to either internal press criticism or un- biased international inspection is an absurdity should be obvious to all but the most devoted supporter of the Cuban regime. As to out dated information on agriculture, Cuba has returned to the use of oxen, which not only are inefficient (the ancient definition of an acre is the area a yoke of oxen can plow in a day) but are a waste of human resources. El Jigüe 9-23-06

The return to the use of oxen was a pragmatic response to the lack of fuel and spare parts instanced by the collapse of trade with the (former) Soviet Union. It was soon realised that oxen can work on land which would be unpassable by tractor, that they do less damage to the soil structure, and add fertility to the land as they worked. With oxen it is possible to grow more crops than with the use of tractors. In many circumstances these factors balanced out the "inefficiencies" in comparison with tractor use. MichaelW 06:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Cuba launches an assult on Dengue. Looks like the wish come true... Cuba's doing something. [40] CaribDigita 15:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Diseases in general or just dengue?

On the flip-side Cuba has I believe the lowest instance of HIV/AIDS in the entire Caribbean and I believe one of the lowest in the Americas. CaribDigita 18:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Some say that is true, because the Castro government isolated the infected by imprisoning them in camps; others say that because the data is taken to international agencies directly from the Cuban government prepared data it is not reliable. Many consider the original infection came from the Cuban troops involved in the War in Angola. We really do not know El Jigue 9-21-06

It is also said Cuba has manditory HIV/AIDS testing.... So everyone knows their status. CaribDigita 18:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

On the AIDS statistics, I once heard one of the UN officials here being asked that same point. She responded something along the lines - "If they are massaging the figures, where are all the sufferers? We have access to all their hospitals, we can see how many patients there are." (OR ?) -- Beardo 20:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Caribe ("Ana Carina Rota!!!" eh what! Hmmmmmmmm I wonder it that is limited to the professionals (:>) or it is paid for international agencies since that is an expensive procedure. B: Did they also check the cemeteries of the Cuba's vast system of prisons and camps which are closed even to the International Red Cross. El Jigue 9-21-06

Motto

I see there has been some activity again on the front page.

From a quick scan, whilst the citations clearly support the use of the phrase "Patria o Muerte", I can't see if that is officially the motto of the country, or (say) of the revolution - the two are closely intertwined but are distinct.

On http://www.cubagob.cu/ - under "Otra informacion", there are the symbols of the country - the flag, crest and hymn - but I can't see mention of the motto.

-- Beardo 12:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

See Motto for some discussion on the motto, Beardo. Consensus wasn't clear, I've added a few citations but it maybe the case that Cuba doesn't have an official motto anymore.--Zleitzen 12:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the OED has - "patria f homeland, mother country, fatherland" -- Beardo 01:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If I recall, users had been battling over fatherland vs motherland for months, when in fact the term has no gender or literal equivalent in English. It most closely means Homeland. I'm tending to think that the motto should go anyway if we can't get a decent citation.--Zleitzen 01:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I am sure that "homeland" is best - it is just that the others are not wrong. I have raised the question of the motto on Spanish wikepedia, too - [41] -- Beardo 21:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

This lack of a clear translation of the single term patria, points out the difficulties that occur when dealing with a non-English speaking nation, and then enforcing a requirement that references be in English. Thus one is forced to tolerate the inherent biases or even the political agenda of the translators. El Jigue 9-23-06

Indeed, EJ. I don't see the problem with Spanish language references used if necessary, but that is just me. In fact I don't think there is any strict ban on foreign language references at all. --Zleitzen 15:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: Agreed, thank you but your opinion is not unanimous nor binding. It is my opinion that only references in Welsh or Britannic should be banned or input by authors whose names are Jones, Pendragon or Llewellyn (:>). To do otherwise, and allow anybody to delete references they don't agree with or cannot read, is a recipe for arbitrary or directed censorship and thus can promote only one side of a controversy. There are regimes out there who find it easier to censor than to improve the lot of the inhabitants of the countries they rule. El Jigüe 9-23-06

Concerning the motto - our Spanish speaking collegues on their wikipedia seem no wiser or closer to resolution. I was holding onto Patria y Libertad - the old Marti motto - until one user furiously informed me via an edit summary that it was certainly "Homeland or death" and I was an idiot for not knowing that! I'm edging ever closer to a removal of the motto for lack of confirmation. Would anyone object to that?--Zleitzen 10:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The more I read, the more I am convinced that we should remove it. All these phrases are probably used occasionnaly, or perhaps even often, as unofficial mottoes, but I see no convincing evidence that any of these is official. If there were an official motto, there probably wouldn't be so much discussion about it. Pruneau^talk 14:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

It's 'Homeland or death' on Cuban currency [42]. If it is not the official motto, it is pretty close... Myciconia 18:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I find the coin pretty convincing. By looking at a few other currencies, it does seem that the coins bear either the name of the state or its motto (often both). And this definitely shows that it has some official status. Thanks, Myciconia! Pruneau^talk 16:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Z: I view 'Homeland or death' as a kind of whistling in the graveyard kind of propaganda slogan designed more for external consumption or wet dreams of Cuban bureaucrats who do not see themselves involved in the fighting. This kind of thing probably strikes the average Cuban on the island as yet another example of official idiocy, and yet another reason to try to escape from the Island. However, it is probably the official motto. El Jigue 0-24-06

Formally -> Formerly in Demographics

"Taino etc. bloodlines are more prevalent or whatever than formally believed." The word formally should be changed to formerly.

150.203.2.85 10:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Done - but next time - do it yerself - you lazy sod ;-) MichaelW 10:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The page is semi-protected. Unregistered users cannot edit it. -- Beardo 12:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Dengue Dengue Dengue

It seems that the Dengue epidemic is serious. Tomas Estrada- Palma has a rather hard hitting but well documented column on it in his blog. [43] El Jigue 9-25-6

See also the Miami Herald article at El gobierno reconoce que hay dengue -- Polaris999 20:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

More on official slogan

To some it seems derived from Mussolini propaganda e.g.

CANZONE DEL LUPO (the wolf song?) [44] contains the lines "'Vogliamo per la Patria o vincere o morir'"

Il Lupo va dove si lotterà Il Lupo va dove si vincerà

Noi siamo gli arditi del Battaglione “Lupo”

Il nostro bel sangue a te Duce s’immola Il nome d’Italia la bocca fa gioir "'Vogliamo per la Patria o vincere o morir'"

Maggiore De Martino – Guidaci tu all’assalto Terremo sempre in alto il nostro Tricolor “Iterum Rudit Leo” è il nostro lieto motto serriamoci più sotto, salviamo il nostro onor

Guardateci il verde noi siamo la speranza Vedete qui il rosso è il sangue dei fratelli Che gridan vendetta dal bel profondo mar

Noi siamo fanteria noi siamo marinar Maggiore De Martino – Guidaci tu all’assalto

El Jigue 9-25-06

Perez Jr., Louis A. 2005 To Die In Cuba: Suicide and Society University of North Carolina Press, Raleigh NC ISBN 0807829374, pp. 338 “The cry ‘Patria y Libertad’ of 1958 was replaced by ‘Patria or Muerte’ in 1960, to which was added one year later ‘Socialismo o Muerte’ ” where Raúl Castro is cited in a long explanation proclaiming that ‘Socialismo’ is considered equivalent to ‘Patria’ and “After the explosion of [the French freighter] La Coubre …Fidel proclaimed ‘Patria o Muerte’.” Fidel’s statements then continued denying fatalism and parsing the matter to say unconvincingly that it does not mean that everybody it going to die. El Jigue 9-26-06

Thanks EJ, That is probably enough to convince me that we should keep the motto Patria o Muerte (though as Socialismo o Muerte doesn't appear on any coins I would hesitate to add that), I'd leave it to the motto expert Pruneau to make the final call on what should stay or go.--Zleitzen 14:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The point is - official to what ? The government, the "revolution", the party ? Three things which are distinct but intertwined. "Patria o muerte" appears on the coins but not, as far as I can see, on the notes. (Except in the background, along with "Cuba territorio libre de America". -- Beardo 15:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It is said that Mussolini (in a similar way to Stalin) considered his supports as obedient and disposable females. El Jigüe 9-26-06

Ramirito makes a move ?

Not sure where to fit this in:

"Cuba has fired the heads of two of the country's most influential companies in a bid to bring the computing and telecommunications enterprises back under firm state control amid a national anti-corruption drive, industry sources said on Monday."

..."Valdes fired the president of Empresa de Telecomunicaciones de Cuba SA (Etecsa), Jose Antonio Fernandez, and the vice minister for information, Nelson Ferrer, for failing to control the fixed-line and mobile services monopoly, the sources said."

..."Valdez also fired the president of the powerful state-run Copextel corporation which imports, assembles and distributes advanced communications, computing and other technology, the sources said."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-09-25T181627Z_01_N25288797_RTRIDST_0_CUBA-FIRINGS.XML

-- Beardo 16:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

B: Watching that too, but do not know how to interpret it, except as Ramirito settling scores...if so the fired people are lucky to be alive. This suggests that since a lot of money is involved some accounts may be paid in blood. However, the problems at the Miami Herald interest me more as an indicator of direction of the flux in present Cuban circumstance. At that paper, where reporters were fired for speaking on Radio Marti, Janet Comellas Torres recently of Granma has been made editor. This seems to indicate that McClatchy is seeking a bureau in Havana at any cost, much like CNN did it. Of course you know Lucia Newman is in process, she should have finished now, to El Jazeera's Latin American Office in Buenos Aires I think. El Jigue 9-26-06

Yes Lucia Newman is in Buenos Aires. The difficulties covering a story in Cuba are illustrated by the following citation [45]. Reasons to doubt reports from Havana are listed in an analysis entitled "A few questions..." at [46]. El Jigue 9-26-06

Freemasons in Cuba.

I have 2 photos of the Freemasons' lodge in Matanzas Cuba. One is of the front and the other is a close up list of the senior members. Can some one inform me on how i can add this to the Cuba entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.99.58.117 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 26 September 2006

Thank you for that offer. To load an image, follow the upload file link which should appear to the left. However, I don't think that the photos you mention really have relevance to the main Cuba article. Perhaps you would like to start a separate article on Freemasons in Cuba ? -- Beardo 01:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A Freemasons entry is a fantastic idea, as the group seems to have begun to grow again after decades of having been banned in Cuba. I recently poured through some photographs of some of the Cuban lodges - great stuff!

Any such secret organization, will be watched and infiltrated by Seguridad del Estado. El Jigue 9-27-06

Yellow Fever Danger in Cuba

One notes that Yellow Fever is the big brother of Dengue, and they have the same vectors. Yellow fever exists "in ten South and Central American countries and in several Caribbean islands." [47]. The Cuban population which no longer has "immunity " can be considered endangered by its proximity to these sites and because of the presence of the mosquito vector. El Jigue 9-27-06

Reports suggest that a significant alternative vector for Dengue and Yellow fever, Aedes albopictus, is present and spreading in Cuba. This tiger mosquito, A. albopictus, which can carry a wider range of diseases, is said to live further away from residences, and very resistant to many pesticides from DDT to organophosphates (e.g. malathion) and to be less particular about egg laying sites [48] El Jigue 9-29-06

Several Multi-national oil cos. ready to boost Cuba's economy

• Prospects for black gold putting Cuba in suitors' sights

CaribDigita 01:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Miami Herald fires editor rehires fired reporters

Rumors had said that Castro, in perhaps his last political act, ordered the firing of reporters on Miami Herald papers after he was embarassed in Argentina. Still that is unsure, what is known is that they were fired. Now the Miami Herald Chief Jesus Diaz has been fired and the reporters re-instated [49], [50] El Jigue 10-3-06

Cuban government suppression of the press continues

The Dengue outbreak in Cuba continues [51] [52], but the Cuban government has found a way to stop it, well that is stop reporters about talking about it [53]. However, overseas many believe Castro era has ended [54]. El Jigue 10-3-06

Well the Cuban Junta of Major General Raul Castro has apparently decided it cannot deny the dengue thing any longer and has stuck the matter at the end of long tirade against the US "Pedro Saez praised the patriotic spirit of San Miguel del Padron, calling the Havana neighborhood a leader in the application of the energy savings program underway and in the campaign against the dengue fever transmitting Aedes aegypti mosquito." [55]. El Jigue 10-5-06

hardline continues

Apparently the Cuban government hard line continues as Cuban authorities hold 9 year old Canadian immigrant girl as hostage for her mother's return [56]. El Jigue 10-15-06

location of dying Fidel Castro

Presumably dying Fidel Castro is. according to reliable source, on the fourth floor, ward G, of the CIMEQ hospital in Havana. Security is said to "be out of this world" El Jigue 10-6-06

Dengue epidemic now semi-official

Today the Miami Herald reports that there is a dengue epidemic in Cuba and that it is being covered up [57]. Apparently now reports on mosquito spraying are allowed (no news there (:>)) mention of circumstance as an epidemic is still seemingly not allowed. Witness reports include: "There is a pile of dead people nobody talks about, said Arturo, a restaurant worker recruited by the Communist Party to fumigate Havana homes. ``A lot of people have gotten sick. A lot.'" Here in all probability "pile" is the usual Cuban vernacular for "many." An interesting inference that can be drawn is that the "Comminist party" is in control. That in turn may or may not infer that neither of the Castro brothers are in full control, and that Fidel is either dead or too sick to take command and Raul does not complete control the state apparatus. El Jigue 10-7-06

Or perhaps the state apparatus has been collectively run for years and without the dominant personality of Fidel to block the view, the realities of Cuban governance are becoming more clear. MichaelW 23:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Rueters and the AFP said Cuba was luanching an all-out assult on dengue (Cuba wages war on tiny enemy: the mosquito that spreads dengue). So what's to cover up??? Also the Miami Herald was just implicated in an Anti-cuba bias along with the United States government. (Miami publisher resigns in uproar over anti-Castro payments). Do you have other sources? CaribDigita 23:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

C: Interesting interpretation of data, however according to Wikipedia rules, such novel interpretations, cannot be placed in an article. Thus, the official Cuban government position that there is not a dengue epidemic should stand xe xe. As to the Miami Herald stance the Jesus Diaz was outed because he retained reporters who had very recently worked for Granma (the senior official Cuban government paper) and only fired those who had spoken on Radio Marti. These reporters have now been reinstated. One can expect that Tom Fiedler will soon be retired gracefully despite his apologies after the chihuahua remark he made very recently. In this, remarked charged with racial innuendo he compared Cuban-Americans to these little dogs. This caused quite some response including this cartoon [58] El Jigue 10-8-06

Nicaragua

A user has added this piece of information.

The insurgency in Nicaragua which lead to the demise of the Somoza dynasty in 1979, was openly supported by the Cuban government, who providing aid, training, military weapons and refuge to Sandinista fighters. Cuba supported the Sandinista government, providing medical aid and soldiers with the support of the Soviet Union and other Eastern European nations. Castro lost the support of the Nicaraguan government when the Sandinistas were defeated by the pro U.S. party in the 1990 election.

Whilst the gist is certainly verifiable and true, it is quite detailed for what is already an overlong history section. We don't really go into the much more significant war in Angola. Of side interest is the fact that Castro himself was not overly supportive of the Sandanista victory in 1979 - seeing problems for Cuba and having reservations about the movement itself. A threat to his perceived position in Latin America perhaps.--Zleitzen 10:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow! Yet another opportunity to whitewash Castro, so you are going to erase many of the nasty things he did, because he did too many to mention them all. Well what did I expect on Wikipedia (:>) xe xe El Jigue 10-22-06

As no one has responded, (other than El Jigue whose point I am not quite sure of) I have moved the elaborate paragraph to the History of Cuba page.--Zleitzen 13:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

history

the history section of this article should be moved and merged into the 'History of Cuba' article, leaving only highlights in this article. Hmains 04:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah! yeah! What an opportunity to lay on the whitewash with a bucket. Anything to make Castro look good. Oh well I did not expect less El Jigue 10-22-06

Castro Death Watch

"Our referrer logs show an increase in search engine hits today with the search parameter "castro rumors." Thus I though it would be a good time to post this week's installment of "The castro Death Watch."

"Reports are fidel castro may be dead if, in fact, he is no longer living...." [59]

If Castro does not make an appearance most in and out of Cuba will consider him essentially non-functional and thus dead or as good as dead. El Jigue 10-24-06

The Cuban government may well be planning FC's funeral [60], El Jigue 10-26-06

In one sentence: Who the hell knows? That said, I don't think it would be at all surprising if he had died already. If that were the case, I would expect RC would want tto keep a tight lid on it until all of his ducks were in a row, worrying over possible reactions to the death. We shall see. Goatboy95 19:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

And did you see the quote from Lula last week ? 'I only regret that Fidel Castro did not carry out a process of political opening while he was alive,' -- Beardo 11:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know - I still think it could have just been bad choice of words on Lula's part. Sigh. Goatboy95 15:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Giles goat-boy (is that Cabrera? or does it refer to the novel placed at Cornell with the shafting end) Lula is trying to keep the extreme left of his coalition from fighting with the more moderate factors (so he has to balance his public view of Castro). However, this is a fight I think Lula will eventually lose, and more centrist parties will regain control of Brazil. El Jigue 10-28-06

Seriously Amir Valle recalls his personal interaction with Fidel Castro and comments on the dictator's apparent demise [61]. El Jigue 10-28-06

This discussion, would be better suited for a Wiki-blog. GoodDay 00:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hugo Chavez infers that Castro is now a night stalker

Hugo Chavez, in his usual maladroit way states ""He is walking around already and goes out at night to tour the countryside, towns and cities. I'm soon going to go see you, Fidel," [62]. This statement of course has led to endless jokes about Castro as a night stalker, vampire etc.... El Jigue 10-28-06

Look at the video with the sound off, perhaps it could be used for a remake of the night of the living dead. El Jigue 10-28-06

This is all interesting, but your views belong on a Wiki-blog. All you're doing here is taking up space. Now if you have a complaint about this particular article (want to add to, or subtract). Then by all means discuss it here. GoodDay 18:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Socialist Republic

Is Wikipedia really serious? They are calling Cuba a socialist republic when it is really a communist country. Do other socialist republic ration food? ummm..I don't think so. I have a family memeber who just left recently and she wrote us an e-mail telling us exactly what was rationed, after a I translate it I am posting it, becuase people will be amazed. There is such a misconception that Cuban's have access to free health care and an education. What good is a free education when you reach unveristy level you can only do 1 of 4 things and by the way the government will decide. What good is free health care when the receptionist is bribed with bars of soap to ensure an appointment? What good is free health care when there is no neosporin, bandaids, asthma inhalers, ibupofen and NO OTHER medical supplies on the island? You can only travel when the government permits. It never stops amazing me how much people really do not know about Cuba.Cerveza 22:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Rationing does not equate to communism. The UK had rationing in the 1940s and 1950s. (And anyway, the rationing in Cuba only applies to goods sold at what is in effect subsidised prices.) -- Beardo 01:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

That's actually a good point Cerveza, a Republic is usually defined as a system of government in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, obviously not the case in Cuba. Communism on the other hand, advocates class war and the abolition of private property which is of course what we see in Cuba. Now, how to correctly classify Cuba - Wikipedia defines North Korea for example, as a Communist Republic. While the communist half of that statement is correct, the "republic" half is rather misleading. I think you've raised a good point. Some might see this small little tidbit in the wiki-entry as not being so important but, the proper categorization of nations is indeed critical. Cuba, and North Korea for that matter, would more accurately be described as "Communist Dictatorships." For my definitions, I'm deferring to the Oxford English Dictionary.

So, in the end, I would have to say that properly categorizing the governments of both North Korea and Cuba would require the use of the term "Communist Dictatorship" as opposed to "Communist Republic" or Socialist Republic." Seems like a no-brainer. You've raised a good point. Let's try to come up with some consensus on this, eh? Before a change is made, we should get some other suggestions.

Cheers, Goatboy95 16:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed in the past - have a look in the archives. -- Beardo 12:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What we wished to call a country and what a country calls itself, are two different things: eg People's Republic of China. Cuba describes itself as a Socialist Republic and so in keeping with Wikipedia policies, that's what Wikipedia will call it. GoodDay 01:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see the archived discussion on this topic. A VERY interesting thread. If Wikipedia's policy is to simply copy/paste each country's method of self-description - seems very flawed. In Cuba, or North Korea's case for that matter, both countries are neither truly socialist and they certainly aren't republics - I think 9/10 people would agree on that. Ah well, we have this argument on record.

Cheers, Goatboy95 15:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Domestic Spending

I heard somewhere that Cuba spends something like 1/3 of its budget on education, but I haven't been able to confirm this at all. I don't know if the records are at all open, but it would be nice for anyone who has to write the essay I'm writing now next year to be able to know Cuba's domestic spending priorities, if anyone knows.

When ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise. The Cuban statistics are what the Cuban government decides what they are.. reality is not often considered..El Jigue 11-4-06

ABC organization

Have any of you ever heard of the ABC organization that fought against Batista's first "pseudo-presidency" in '33? The ABC were a group of revolutionaries whose stated goal was to depose the master of the "Sergeant's Revolt." Their history is often overlooked. I have some information on them in a few books at home - need to see if I can track the info down. Anyhow, I'm wondering if it's worth adding a few sentences in this entry. Perhaps it's more appropriate in the Batista entry though. . .

Cheers,

Goatboy95 22:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

We've been getting calls to cut it down - so it may be worth creating a new article for the movement. The ABC's were originally set up to oppose the reign of Machado, I believe, demanding agrarian reforms and a limit to US interests - almost a direct pre-cursor to the "llano" of the 1950s Cuban revolution. I'm sure El Jigue has more to say on the matter if he's around.--Zleitzen 08:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Listening the ABC movement's ideals seem murky, those of the Guiteristas often murderous. That is not to say that Machado was not evil. It was a very complex circumstance. Right now I am looking at the cooperation of the Cuban communists with Machado. Some of the oddest links turn up.

For instance Payne, Stanley G 1970 The Spanish Revolution. First Edition W.W. Norton .” p.213 “The triggerman in the murder (of Calvo Sotello) was a leftist gunman, Victoriano Cuenca (one time bodyguard of the Cuban dictator Machado), who had been provided with an Assault Guard identification card by leftist officers” (referenced mere to “these details were brought out by the subsequent judicial investigation by the Nationalist regime.”

One could surmise a branching logic: Cuenca was not a a communist in Cuba, but there were only about three years difference in timing between the fall of Machado and the Spanish events described above (Jul 12, 1936). It seems more probable that Cuenca was a communist in Cuba. If one accepts this as a possibility then one might ponder why a communist would be a bodyguard of Machado, was this with Machado's knowledge, or was it merely infiltration of the Machado government. This of course "goes to" the assassination of Julio Antonio Mella, was it true that he was killed by Machado's orders as communists allege or was Mella killed by the communists because he had gotten too close to Trotsky, or was collusion between both groups to kill Mella. El Jigue 11-5-06

I know I've got some good books/research material on the group somewhere at home, as my grandfather was a member. Got to see what I can dig up out of the bookcases. You're right about the "Cuba" entry getting too long. Maybe its own entry would be in order. Interestingly, I couldn't find ANYTHING on the internet regarding the movement.

Alright, going to start searching.

Cheers,

Oh and yes, Zleitzen - very true - they were originally formed to fight against Machado, having later evolved into an anti-Batista organization. Once I find some good reference - which could take a little while - would it be possible for you to take a look the entry - I'm not quite sure how to accurately input reference sources on Wikipedia - it's all rather confusing to me!

Cheers, Goatboy95 16:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Goatboy95 15:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes an entry on the ABC would be of considerable interest. Especially the break up of what could be said to be their last major demonstration. This apparently was done by a few activists who simply fired on the demonstration, and then ran away so fast on foot, I think it was down Infanta towards the sea, that they knocked down a poor bystander killing him. El Jigue 11-6-06

Hello, El Jigue. Just curiouis, why won't you become a registered user on Wikipedia? GoodDay 23:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Has Castro "chemo" failed

It appears that Fidel Castro's cancer advances and that his "chemo" treatment has failed

See [63] "HAVANA - Cuba's foreign minister backed away Monday from his prediction that Fidel Castro will return to power by early December, raising questions about the pace of the communist leader's recovery from intestinal surgery." El Jigue 11-6-06

If so, add this (varifiable) fact to the article. GoodDay 22:03, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

He can't actually, as it is semi-protected again. Sorry, EJ - that wasn't a move against you, but against all the mindless vandalism this page attracts. -- Beardo 11:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What is verifiable fact on Cuba

GD Thank you. However, I prefer to point out Wikipedia Cuba and related pages have many factual errors on Cuba. The problem is that one cannot rely on official Cuban sources, nor to a somewhat lesser extent can one rely on the international media since all who enter Cuba this way do so after screening by the Cuban government. Thus "verifiable facts" like the item I placed above is from an official Cuban government source, and thus by definition unreliable. Thus to limit discussion on Cuba to "verifiable fact" means that this page will, until things change on the island, merely reflect official Cuban government propaganda. An example will follow. El Jigue 11-7-06

For instance the Cuban government alleges that the US Embargo is responsible for the poor state of the Cuban economy. However, it is reported US food exports to Cuba have decreased this year [64]. This means that Cuba does import food (and medicine) from the US. Elaborate sophisms by the Cuban government are presented to "prove" that paying cash for imports from the US is unfair, carefully avoiding the fact that the Cuban government has very poor credit since it is in the habit of not paying. Thus the discussion section on "Cuba facts" needs an analysis section or references to analyses, they cannot be taken at face value.

Still if it is preferred I can be banned from these discussion pages, that way only "verifiable fact" can be presented. Unfortunately for Castro supporters this leaves this Wikipedia page as it once was, and to some extent still is, merely a reflection of official Cuban sources. (:>) El Jigue 11-7-06

El Jigue, we don't want to muzzle you, or infringe on your freedom of speech. The arguement was simply the location of your observations. I can't speak for others, but would it be acceptable to you if I converse with you (on Cuban related events), on one of your IP address 'talk pages'? GoodDay 17:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

GD sorry you will have to ban me, since I cannot defer to your request, and allow you to send me to a third class site which nobody will read, while Cuban official sources are used, and unchallenged, as "verifiable fact." It is your choice either way. However, please keep in mind if you ban such challenges as mine to Cuban government controlled information in this discussion page, this action of yours will be evaluated by many as proof that these pages are merely another propaganda outlet of that government. Your choice! El Jigue 11-7-06

see my response, on your latest IP adress 'talk' page. GoodDay 18:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Size of history section

As there have been a few concerns about the size of the history section, I thought I'd place the Cuban article in some kind of context, with a comparison to history sections on other pages. The following comes from a random selection of history sections.

• Mexico 813 words
• Netherlands 866 words
• New Zealand 1000 words
• Vietnam 1136 words
• Australia 1279 words (featured article)
• Canada 1543 words
• Nicaragua 1889 words
• Haiti 2043 words
• Cuba 3887 words
• Spain 5789 words

Any thoughts are welcome. One thing I would say is that although people may dispute individual aspects of the historical analysis on this page, in terms of style, I think it is the best written history section of any nation page.--Zleitzen 08:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Z: One could say that size is important (no inferences intended (;>)) and that size can indicate thorough evaluation, material available, and interest. However, if some object to size per se, there are some interesting responses in citations from the vast works of an old man who once lived in Vienna. El Jigue 11-7-06

Didn't someone say something like "Cuba is a small country which produces more history than can be consumed internally" ? -- Beardo 22:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Prime Minister of Cuba

Is Castro still PM of Cuba? If so, it should be added to the article. GoodDay 23:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Until otherwise informed, then yes. Though whether his phone is still plugged in is anyone's guess. I see some dispute about the PM status on the Fidel Castro page. I was always of the position that President of the Council of Ministers = prime minister, rather like yourself, but Polaris has made some further points of interest on this subject.--Zleitzen 08:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Reports out of Cuba seem to indicate that Fidel Castro is so deep into decline that Raul has set up a heavily armed and numerous rapid response group to repress any revolt. This, if correct, strongly suggests that despite announcements said to be from FC appearing in official press his influence if not his life is near at end. El Jigue 11-8-06

I've made changes to the Prime Minister of Cuba & List of Prime Ministers of Cuba articles. Fidel was the last PM of Cuba (serving 1959-76), abolishing the office upon becoming President. GoodDay 20:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

El Jigue block

For those unaware, El Jigue (User:208.65.188.149) has been blocked for two weeks for activities on this and other talk pages. Various users including myself have questioned the need for the block.

Related discussion, blocks, etc. can be seen at User talk:208.65.188.149, User_talk:Durova#El Jigue, User_talk:Durova#Regarding El Jigue User_talk:GoodDay#El_Jigue, User_talk:Dasondas#El_Jigue, User_talk:Zleitzen#El_Jigue and User_talk:Zleitzen#El_Jigüe.

Any one wishing to comment on this block could perhaps go to User talk:208.65.188.149.--Zleitzen 20:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Z: Thank you. BTW It seems that the US government according to Fox News this morning is accepting the hypothesis, previously. mentioned on the Cuba discussion page. that Fidel Castro has terminal cancer. The novel aspect of this report is the putative belief of the US government that Castro will not see 2007. El Jigue 11-12-06

Please stop blogging up the 'talk' pages, it's very annoying, disruptive & against Wikipedia rules & policies. GoodDay 23:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Buendia please define "blogging" in Wikipedia is it all encompassing like Wikipedia's use of the term "vandalism" El Jigüe 11-27-06

See Bliki, for what blogging in Wikipedia is. GoodDay 21:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Please, stop calling be Buendia. Call me GoodDay. GoodDay 22:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Fidel Castro's end

I recently read in http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061112/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/us_watching_castro that Fidel Castro's health condition is deteriorating quickly. His deteriorating health means that he will live for only a few months before he dies. If Castro is dead after living his last months, Cuba's communist regime will collapse, his brother Raul and pro-Castro Cubans will mourn for Castro's death, and Castro's death will bring joy and hope to many anti-Castro Cubans.

Since Raul Castro's been Acting President for over 3 months (and counting). I've added his name to the top infobox, pointing out he's Acting President of Cuba. If anyone disagrees with my edit, by all means revert it, I won't dispute it either way. GoodDay 23:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Cuban Television

Perhaps someone with knowledge of the subject would take a look at this new article Cuban Television, please? Something needs to be done with it - expand? merge in here?, delete? BlueValour 00:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Z made it a redirect which I have now altered to point to List of television stations in Cuba. -- Beardo 04:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me, Beardo. Good work.--Zleitzen 05:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

TV arrived in Cuba early [65], Manuel A. Alvarez writes [66] "Television was inaugurated in October 1950 and expanded rapidly through the island. In 1958, 23 television stations were operating in the territory, composing of 3 national networks and 7 independent local stations in Havana and Camaguey Province. One of them a full color television station, Telecolor Channel 12 in Havana (3rd in America). One in 18 inhabitants had a television set."

"In 1959, the Marxist government of Cuba started the process of seizing radio and television stations, a process that ended in late 1960 with all radio and television channels under the control of the government. That was the end of freedom for the radio and television industry in Cuba." El Jigue 11-25-06

It might be wise to mention that most of these stations existed before Castro reached power, he merely changed their names......El Jigue 11-24-06

EJ - in 2000, there were only two channels, so I am not clear how "most" existed before 1959. -- Beardo 01:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks folks. BlueValour 00:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

See above

Perhaps not in 2000 but, there are more than two channels these days - atleast when watching from the Havana area that is . . . Best.

Goatboy95 15:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

See above for original Cuban TV stations. El Jigue 11-27-06

The CIA apparently using Cuban government data lists 58 TV stations in 1997 [67]. El Jigue 1-30-06

Post-Castro

Could there be an article on post-castro Cuba? It is a big topic, as Cuba has only had one leader since revolulucion. -Art.

Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia isn't it? Dealing with what is, not what might be. MichaelW 20:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with Michael W. - hasn't happened yet so, there's nothing to report, really . . . It's all merely speculation at this point and doesn't really seem like the topic would fit in to an encyclopedic format. Best.

Goatboy95 15:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The trouble with that argument is the definition of the word encyclopedia which means all encompassing education. And a succession after an interregnum is always of great interest. El Jigue 11-27-06

Next week's weather is of great interest to some of us but we're not going to make a page out of the possibilities.MichaelW 20:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Great point, MichaelW. A post-Castro section, would indeed be crystal-balling. GoodDay 17:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Giles and Colonel Buendia you might be speaking prematurely for Raul Castro has perhaps gone missing [68]. If Raul does not show up on the December 3rd? unveiling of supposedly reviving Fidel Castro, the present Cuban government will be clearly shown to already be in transition. That is five days away... El Jigue 11-28-06

By the way, who is Giles?

Goatboy95 21:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again EJ has chosen to FORCE his Blogs on this talk page (also on Talk: Fidel Castro & Raul Castro). Apparently the 2-week ban he was given, had no effect. EJ stop BLOGGING, keep your blogs to your IP adress talk pages. GoodDay 21:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Writing from Moscoq Russian journalist, Pyotr Romanov(RIA Novosti political commentator) [69] writes "As I arranged all forecasts I had heard according to the degree of plausibility, I came up with the following. Cuba is evidently ready for change. It is equally clear that a transitional period will precede far-reaching reforms, and Raul Castro will, most probably, come into the limelight during that time. But then, he is an ailing old man, and does not have his elder brother's public support. I talked to many Cuban taxi drivers, and almost all of them turned out to be ardent Fidelistas. No one had a kind word to say about Raul Castro, who was their former commander as Cuban defense minister-the majority of government-employed Cuban taxi drivers are retired soldiers. My conclusion is then that Cubans will not remain "quiet and docile" during the transitional period, which can turn out to be much shorter than expected, and may have unpleasant surprises in store for Raul Castro." El Jigue 12-1-06

Why did you put that here (on this talk page)? You should have this on your own IP adress 'talk page'. GoodDay 20:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Better still, why not add it (or parts of it), to the article? You know, your're not banned from editing articles. GoodDay 21:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Reliability of Cuban health data

The CIA fact book which i do not fully trust because it apparently will not give data sources for health and other issues apparently prefering to accept Cuban government statistics lists 58 TV stations in 1959. El Jigue 12-1-06 [70]

Well, if you don't trust what you've wrote down?(or at least, don't trust the varifiable sources?), why then did you includes this on this 'talk page'? GoodDay 23:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The health conditions of Cuba are very uncertain and the sources are unreliable. For instance go the WHO page: [71] Here the over all description reads: "Country Health Profiles include a health situation analysis of every country of the Region of the Americas. The chapter describes the general situation, the specific health problems of the different population groups and type of health problems as well gives an overview over the response of the health system in the country, including national health policies and plans and the institutional organization of the health system."

However, the last line carries the sting:

"Profiles are updated by PAHO's Representative Offices in the countries"

So one follows the data trail [72] to the source of the data: [73]

Surprise this is a Cuban governments page where the lead paragraph reads:

"Bienvenido al sitio de las Estadisticas de Salud de la Rep?lica de Cuba. En nuestro sitio podras consultar las Estadisticas oficiales del estado de salud de la poblacion cubana y comparaciones de esta con otros paises. Tambien encontraras datos de interes sobre el desempe~no de la salud publica en nuestro pais."

This means that WHO merely reports what the Cuban government says. There have been a number of studies trying to resolve this dilema let me see if I can find some, El Jigue 11-2-06

I'm not disputing your facts Nor am I backing them. I'm just pointing out, if none of this can be added to the article? Why put it on this 'talk' page? GoodDay 23:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Present state of Cuban Agriculture

Great photo of plowing today at babalu site [74]. El Jigue 11-27-06

Gad is there no low you won't sink to to promote your favourite anti-commie/Castro blog? MichaelW 20:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael let us stick with the title topic, "Present state of Cuban Agriculture." I posted that photo to show a man dressed up in his "Sunday best" (see soft leather boots with very little mud on them) behind a 19th century oxen pulled (see the wooden pua prod) wooden plow with a steel plowshare, and acompanied by a "bare-foot" child wearing very little clothing, with a good hair cut and almost no tan. This infers, although a single photo cannot "prove" such a complex point, that Cuban agriculture is in the 19th Century, and that the photo was posed using personnel who commonly do not do farm labor. Your best response were you to take a different viewpoint would be to provide a link to a another photograph showing a different point of view perhaps a small 20th century tractor pulling a more advanced multi-furrowing plow, and driven by a well tanned and work clothed operator. Actually I would prefer to see an illustration with an example of 21st century no-till agriculture but that would be too much to ask. El Jigue 11-27-06

El J your ability to make a lot out of a little must make you a valuable person to have around. I'd say given the state of the soil and the lack of rainfall which can be inferred from the picture that the amount of mud was just right. Did you consider that the child (freshly shorn) might have escaped from the house (where he was normally cossetted and not allowed out in the sun without a wide hat)and run down to see his grandpa at work. Actually, can you prove that the photo was taken recently in Cuba? Stick with the title you created if you wish but it still stands primarily as another attempt of yours to promote Babalublog as a useful resource.MichaelW 23:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

One might observe in photo “When life gives you lemons...” [75], the grass is yellow-green (not emerald as the more cold hardy C-3 grasses common in temperate zones) but such color is typical of most tropical grasses which have C-4 photosynthetic metabolism (See figure 6 at[76]). Grasses have an evolutionary advantage with meristems at the base of the leaves, thus the tips of living functioning leaves are often senescent and straw color. Were the rains recent and very heavy one might see some purple (as in elephant grass Pennisetum purpureum [77]). The soil is dark and black suggesting high organic content (not the more common red soils of the plains) and at least moderate water content. However, there seems not be any dust. Still your point as to unknown precedence of photo is valid. El Jigue 11-29-06