Talk:Early Germanic calendars

Update needed 2016

Can someone please update the information, using the german article below? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Germanisch-Neuheidnischen_Feiertage — Preceding unsigned comment added by WaFel (talk • contribs) 15:18, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Dates?

This article starts out "The Germanic calendars were any of the various calendars in use among the Germanic peoples prior to the introduction of the Julian calendar." It then has a table of two calendars, both of which post-date the Julian calendar. --Nantonos 14:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Mond

According to newspaper clipping I have from the New York Times dated Jan. 2, 1934, mond does not mean month, rather Moon. So instead of being translated as Lenzmond (Spring Month) shouldn't it be (Spring Month)?.--sprgrss

Yep. I don't know who put the mond endings in there anyway. 172.147.99.112 03:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(Sorry, forgot to sign in. that's me, by the way. Beobach972 03:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

System

Month length

Current text is:

Germanic months were lunar months of 29 days; both the English language "month" and the German language "Monat" are cognate with the word "moon". A leap month was periodically added to keep the months synchronized with the seasons.

If every month was 29 days it would rapidly loose synchronisation with the synodic lunar period of 29.530588 days. Most calendars deal with this by having a mix of 29 and 30 day months. Is it certain that all months were 29 days? If so, after only 28 months, the month would be half a lunar cycle out (14 days).

What is the source for this 29 day month? --Nantonos 14:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The answer is that no one knows for sure what kind of system was used. It's all conjecture. So perhaps the line should be taken out? -- especially in the face of such problems? 172.147.99.112 03:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(Sorry, forgot to sign in. that's me, by the way. Beobach972 03:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Lunisolar

If leap months were added, that makes this a lunisolar calendar. How often was one added? What is our source for this, and when does that source date from? --Nantonos 14:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

References

This article has no references. I suspect that the Old English names come from Bede, can anyone confirm? --Nantonos 14:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I added some references (mostly dictionaries of language).172.147.99.112 03:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

(Sorry, forgot to sign in. that's me, by the way. Beobach972 03:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Hi there I'm interested in the subject so have links to a few references. I believe the source for a lot of the month names comes from Bede and De Temporum Ratione. I'll add some links and references to the subject. Thanks Witanofnorfolk 11:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Link

This page looks interesting, but maybe its information should be taken with a grain of salt. http://www.geocities.com/reginheim/time.html 惑乱 分からん 23:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Here's another link (just to have a place to put it, since I do always like to be on the safe side); it was added to the article but (perhaps justly) removed. Nevertheless, in case it comes up, I'll jot it here - The PETIN-METON Calendar. Beobach972 21:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Old English month names

Here iss a few links regarding the origin of the Old English month names, what does everyone think? I'll add them where relevant and if anybody disgrees we can remove them?

http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/calendar/heathen.html http://spiritualtraditions.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=31 http://www.normannii.org/guilds_lore/calendar.htm

Thanks Witanofnorfolk 11:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Disputed template

I have pulled {{disputed}} from the top of the page. It is too generic a template and has been up for over six months. If there are certain factual concerns use local tags.

• {{fact}} produces
• {{who}} produces
• {{vc}} produces
• {{POVassertion}} produces
• {{POV-statement}} produces

Please be more specific. - WeniWidiWiki 20:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Different calendar or just different month-names?

Was the "Germanic calendar" a different calendar or just different month-names? Certainly if it was used in the 18th century in Germany it was just as alternate month names, but what about more ancient uses? If the months exactly correlate with the modern ones obviously it's derived from the Julian calendar, but perhaps in ancient times the months were arranged differently? The article isn't clear at all on these points. Thanks.--Pharos 22:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: German "Mond" is just a poetic/archaic variant for "Monat", especially as month name's suffix. CORRECTION: "However, Germanic languages have largely kept the old Germanic names for the days of the week" is nonsense. The week coming from Babylon via Jews and Christians, it did not exists in Germania. Names are translations from Planets. Tuesday: Bavarian "Ertag" from Greek war god Ares. Dutch/German "dinsdag" from the godhead of gathering [thing], Alemannic "Zistig" from "Ziu", war god. BUT: Bavarian "Pfinztag" = Greek "pemptê hêmerâ" = the fifth day = Ecclesiastical, anti-heathen = Thursday. CORRECTION: "Hornung" has nothing to do with hornets. LINK: better consult de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isl%C3%A4ndischer_Kalender. Ángel García —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.34.191.124 (talk) 13:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question; I know for sure that the Norse calendar did not operate with exactly the same calendar as we do today, and I am terribly sorry that the current article does not clarify that. I will try to do something about it in the nearest future, –Holt T•C 19:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Fillibrook

I haven't seen any evidence for a month with this title besides this article and others derived from it. Is there a contemporary source we can quote?--Malvorean (talk) 01:18, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Start of a Lunar Month

Is a German lunar month between new moons or between full moons? Starting with the new moon seems natural, but the lunar month article leaves it ambiguous. Drf5n (talk) 19:12, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Assuming that the Germanic calendar was lunisolar following the Metonic cycle, the Germanic month was probably from full moon to full moon. If one takes the starting date of the current cycle as Sep 29, 2008 (full moon), the calendar works out as it should for all 19 years. --77.57.165.148 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Start of a Lunar Year

It looks like Yule is what starts the lunar Germanic calendar, but that page seems mostly devoted to the holiday celebration, and does not define what starts off the year. Does "Month after Yule" include the winter solstice or is it something else that defines the lunar german calendar? Drf5n (talk) 22:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The Germanic year probably began with the month of Winterfylleth, which generally begins around the end of September or the beginning of October. If I may draw a simple yet effective analogy: the Germanic people counted time in nights and winters, not days and summers, and the night begins at sundown, not midnight. Conceptually, therefore, New Winter (Winterfylleth) would be the natural starting point for the new year. Besides that, if one follows the Metonic cycle, the year starts in late September or early October, not on the Winter Solstice (which stands in the same relationship to the year as that in which midnight stands to the day). --77.57.165.148 (talk) 21:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't Bede say it started on the winter solstice? That's well and good, but that would mean there would be days before and after the year's start belonging to the same month, which to modern eyes seems very weird. As an example, the solstice is December 21 for the years 2021 and 2022, but the prior new moon was Dec 4, 2021 and Dec 23, 2022. If the years begins at the solstice, then Dec 4-20 would be within the month that ends a year, and 21 to the next new moon (Jan 2, 2022) are in a different year. So, would a year be, as the above commenter suggested, Winterfylleþ (Oct 6 2021), Blodmonaþ (Nov 4 2021), ærra Géol (Dec 4 2021), æfterra Géol, over to Haligmonaþ, or should it be "begin the year in the month which contains the solstice, beginning at the new moon" making it ærra Geol (Dec 4 2021), æfterra Geol (Jan 2 2022) to Blodmonaþ (Nov 23 2022 to Dec 22 2022); 2022 has 13 moons too. I'm working on a work of fiction involving this calendar and a clearer year start would be great to know. The options are: (1) start of winter, 1st of Winterfylleþ; (2) the month beginning at the new moon, which contains the winter solstice, 1st of ærra Geol; or, (3) on the day of Winter Solstice (though this means the month can't be new moon to new moon as the other two). Thanks! --72.166.61.58 (talk) 22:05, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

German month names

The New High German month names in this section are only word-for-word translations of OHG into NHG. In some cases, it fits exactly, mostly, the names are a little bit different, and sometimes, others (but also of pure Germanic origin) are used: Hartung (January), Hornung (February), Lenzing (March), Launing [sometimes also Ostermond] (April), Wonnemond (May), Brachet (June), Heuert (July), Ernting (August), Scheiding (September), Gilbhart (October), Nebelung (November), Julmond (December). Maybe we can add them? --Abdülhamit-i_Sâlis 08:55, 25 June 2012 (CET)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Early Germanic calendars/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article contains a few inline citations, but most of the sources used are still in a list of external links at the end. The article does not cite any adequately reliable sources (preferably publications by well-established scholars). It contains blatant factual errors. The article needs a complete rewrite. –Holt T•C 18:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:46, 29 January 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 16:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Bede isn't our only source for Old English month names

The article says: "The sole source for Old English month names is Bede's Latin work De temporum ratione (The Reckoning of Time), written in 725." The cited source is just the Latin text of Bede's work, not a secondary source asserting that Bede is the sole source.

The statement is also incorrect. At least some of the Old English month names are also attested in the Old English Martyrology ( https://archive.org/details/herzfeld_An_Old_English_Martyrology/page/n61/mode/2up ) and in the Old English Metrical Calendar / Menologium (mistitled "Mologium" here: https://sacred-texts.com/neu/ascp/a14.htm ). Unfortunately I don't have a secondary source handy so I can't properly edit that in. If I find one I'll try to come back and add it. Steorra (talk) 09:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I took out the sole source claim. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 16:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Month Names

The months according to Bede are quite a bit different from what's shown here on Wikipedia.

I checked out the book from the library: Bede: The Reckoning of Time - translated, with introduction, notes and commentary by FAITH WALLIS

Here are the months it lists for the Anglo-Saxon calendar, and which month they roughly correspond with on the Julian Calendar. Next to the months, I paraphrased the meanings of the month names.

January: Giuli - Season of the winter solstice

February: Solmonath - Month of cakes

March: Hrethmonath - Goddess of Hretha's Month

April: Eosturmonath - Goddess of Eostre's Month

May: Thrimilchi - Month in which cattle are milked three times per day

June: Litha - Gentle or navigable season on the sea

July: Litha - Gentle or navigable season on the sea

August: Weodmonath - Month of tares

September: Halegmonath - Month of sacred rights

October: Winterfilleth - Winter full moon

November: Blodmonath - Month of immolations

December: Giuli - Season of the winter solstice

When a year with 13 lunar cycles occured, the entire year was called Thrilithi.

Appple (talk) 21:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)