Talk:Irving Family (New Brunswick)

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Articles for creation

	This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC articles
	This article was accepted from this draft on 10 April 2023 by reviewer Asilvering (talk · contribs).

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Canada: New Brunswick Mid‑importance

	Canada portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject New Brunswick.

Business

	Business portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Business, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of business articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BusinessWikipedia:WikiProject BusinessTemplate:WikiProject BusinessWikiProject Business articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Suggestion[edit]

Right now this article is very light on details and therefore not very encyclopedic. And yet I think it has value. I wonder if making it as a list and/or a category would be more logical? Just a suggestion. CT55555 (talk) 14:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@CT55555 I agree. There is an existing dab page, Irving (name). Maybe something similar to Kennedy (surname), where there is a section Members of the US Kennedy political family? S0091 (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have significantly improved the article and resubmitted it. I see the original author is banned. CT55555(talk) 16:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article could be clearly notable if content about the family as a whole was added:

CT55555(talk) 19:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possible merge(s)[edit]

Tagging in @Bkissin and @CT55555 re: discussion of how to handle this article, K. C. Irving, and Irving Group of Companies. Unless someone has a strong argument otherwise, I think K. C. Irving ought to remain, but the "criticism" section actually ought to be on this article or Irving Group of Companies. -- asilvering (talk) 15:40, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what is best, but offering my (not strong) opinions and keen to see what others thing. I think:

Irving Group of Companies is in bad shape. Should maybe be a list article. I think the criticisms are about the companies rather than the family, but I don't like how they are presented, I think topic headers should be themes or "history" and should contain criticism (and praise, if there is any) but I don't like "criticism" as a section heading.
K. C. Irving is clearly independently notable, so keep as it is
Irving Family Weakly lean to keep.

In summary, weakly maybe keep all three, with major edits to Irving Group of Companies being needed. I'm willing to improve that one, but will wait for consensus before taking any action. I'm open minded to better/other suggestions.

@Asilvering I don't strongly disagree with your suggestion, but my first impressions are that the "Political patronage" is about family stuff and should be here. The rest of it is maybe (?) more about the business stuff and maybe should remain there. But you've been doing all this longer than me and I respect your opinion and am happy to defer to your expertise. CT55555(talk) 15:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that the main group is in bad shape. I wonder if maybe the easier way is to do as you say, with the Group article becoming "List of companies owned by the Irving Family" (or similar, I don't care much about the wording), and the Family article being the host of the "criticism/patronage" section. The weak point I see with that is that the Family article is technically a BLP, so I wonder if that would complicate having a large "criticism" section? But I'm not sure that actually changes anything. -- asilvering (talk) 15:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are more articles for attention in the template at the bottom of the page. I think it's probably best to keep each individual biography separate from this article so that the article on the family as a whole doesn't get too overloaded with individual details. I've spot-checked a few of the individual companies' articles, and I think the "criticism" sections should be on Irving Group of Companies, with obvious links from each of the relevant articles. I think it's important to avoid content-forking by having a separate "criticism" section on each person/company, but I do also think it needs to be very obvious where to find this information, since it is quite important and relevant to the group of articles as a whole. -- asilvering (talk) 15:50, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: should the family article be a list style? That was my original intention, but as I started writing it, I found interesting content and changed path. If I knew there was a more natural home for it, I may have taken a different path.

Or would this all be easier if there was a more collective title that included the family and their businesses? As I write, that might be a more elegant solution. CT55555(talk) 15:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think that's basically where my last comment was going, in effect. Individual bio articles (except where too stubby, those redirect here), a "family and company" article, and a "list of Irving companies" article. I'll post to WP:CANADA for some more opinions. -- asilvering (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So far, that seems like the most logical way to do it. CT55555(talk) 15:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited information[edit]

A significant amount of uncited information has been added to the article. This is at odds with how we write biographies. I think perhaps we should delete the uncited information. Seeking thoughts from others. CT55555(talk) 11:34, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]