Talk:Honour killing in Pakistan

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Interested in expanding on article[edit]

Hi all, I am interested in expanding on the article by adding more recent research and updating the legislation in Pakistan. Particularly, I am interested in the epidemiological patterns of these killings and more case studies. The proposed changes with possible references are on my user page. Please let me know if you have any feedback. Thanks! Sa49 (talk) 01:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I am additionally interested in expanding on this article, especially in regard to legislation and cultural responses to legislation. I want to primarily focus on the legal and law enforcement side. I have notes for the updates on my page. Please let me know if you have any thoughts. UniversityofUtahGrad (talk) 20:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

British English should have the "honour"[edit]

Pakistan, like most countries once under British rule, have opted for British spelling. Shouldn't this article also show that preference? Hammersbach (talk) 16:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reference # 10, statsic of 10,000 honor killings in 2005[edit]

I can't find the reference to that number in the book cited... it would be helpful if page numbers were provided to such statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.177.35 (talk) 23:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Updating statistics[edit]

Most of the statistics in the article are from the early 2000's. There have been numerous reports in recent years that could be used for a general update to the article. Would anyone object to cleaning out some of the older statistics in favour of newer ones. —Zujine|talk 15:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article Needs Scholarly Revisions And More Clarity[edit]

The current article stands as a disorganized maze of information which is not accessible to general audience. To be improved, the article requires substantial research, incorporation of scholarly sources, and a general aesthetic “cleanup.”

I intend to add a section on Legal Measures, providing an overview of the Pakistani government’s tacit support and sanctions of the practice of honor killings. I will also briefly describe the impact of the Hudood Ordinances and 1990 Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. Secondly, in order to show a balanced perspective of on-the-ground countermeasures being taken by local Pakistani NGOs, I also intend to include a section on Pakistani Activism.

Also, the current article sporadically covers a diverse array of specific Pakistani honor killings documented in history and news. I intend to organize these featured honor killings in a coherent section, entitled “Specific Case Studies.”

The current article on “Honour Killings in Pakistan” only includes one section presently. The section’s title is “karo-kari,” which is the Urdu and Sindhi word for honor killings in Pakistan. If karo-kari is defined to be the Urdu and Sindhi language equivalents of honor killings, why is karo-kari separated as subgroup under the article of the same name (honor killing)? This seems redundant as there is no differentiation between the two, linguistically speaking. Thus, I intend to entirely omit that section and intend to add multiple other sections in order to broaden the scope of the article.

I would appreciate any input or further ideas for ways to improve this article!

Saimatoppa (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like we both had the same thought on the same day. I'm just now getting back to this. I'd like to help if you want to split up some of the initial work. My first thought was just to clean up the statistics. —Zujine|talk 05:42, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I started just digging into it, but without addressing the more fundamental issues of the article. I think that it still needs to be restructured.—Zujine|talk 15:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
May I suggest that we go forward with a restructuring of the article. I propose a brief lede paragraph followed by these sections: Background (discussing the roots of the issue and the culture surrounding it), Recent Cases (highlighting cases that have been reported in the last several years), and National and International Response (human rights groups and government efforts to curtail the killings as well as any defense of the practice by official bodies). I think this would cover what we currently have, making revisions along the way, of course, and leave room for greater improvements. Any other suggestions? —Zujine|talk 14:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There is still more work to be done, but I think that I have cleaned up the article pretty well. A good first step. I need to research the prosecution section more, and the notable cases can surely be filled out further. Additionally, the references should be reviewed; I was quite careful in keeping the refs with their associated content when moving things around, but I did not verify all of the references' validity to ensure that they were properly placed. I also left some things alone that should probably be expanded or moved, like the short paragraph on notable activists. Saimatoppa, I hope we can collaborate on next steps. —Zujine|talk 16:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback! I would be excited to collaborate with you. I have been creating a prototype for the new article in my sandbox. The new article will have a section of Legal Measures that the Pakistani state has enacted such as the Hudood Ordinances and the 1990s Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. I also anticipate a section on Pakistani Activism. Perhaps another section on how international activism from Amnesty International is intervening in this issue? I like the titling you suggested.

Also, the statistics I have found all seem rather suspect. But I think adding a caveat that these statistics are difficult to interpret because of A) a reluctance to report; and B) groups that recognize honor killings live within states whose legal systems do not recognize honor killing will strengthen the article.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I will make changes directly on the page in the new few days. Look out for it. Saimatoppa (talk) 05:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]


322: Peer Review[edit]

Great article! I have a few constructive comments regarding the article (of course you can decide not to take them) I like the overall outline of the article, but some things can be placed in different areas. Moving the last paragraph in 'Background' to the second paragraph of that section would be a smooth transition- they both talk about marriage and family response. 'Statistics' and 'Notable Cases' (the 'c' in cases should be lower case) should be switched. It would flow better if 'Notable cases' were before 'Prosecution of killings' (the 'k' in killings should also be lower case) Maybe change the name 'Notable cases' because this suggests that these cases are of more importance than other cases. The last sentence of the first paragraph in this section seems out of place. Don't be afraid to cite more throughout the article. You do a great job of linking outside articles, maybe add more in the last section of the article.

Again, great job! Allyssa.abacan (talk) 16:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review[edit]

You have a great introduction that is very short, to-the-point, and explanatory.

In background, I think citing the 1990 Amnesty Report sounds outdated, and I think you should insert a tiny disclaimer within the sentence about how that is unfortunately the most recent attention given on such a wide scale to this topic. That seems like it would explain why there is not more current information so that it would not be tagged as outdated, as some other pages have been. In your third paragraph of "Background", I am confused by the fact that you say honor killings are not religious, but in the next sentence say that religious justifications are used for these killings. It would help if you tried to clarify those sentences more- perhaps by adding in a "but" or "however".

I still believe you should reconsider the title of your "Statistics" subheading. That section offers so much more than statistics, and I think your readers might miss out on the information unless you label it something like "Occurrences" or "cases" or something like that. I am glad, however, that you were able to elaborate on instances of it happening and people being tracked down. It makes the article seem more widespread.

You do a fantastic job of remaining un-biased in your article. I would definitely have problems with that considering the brutality and wrong associated with these murders, so bravo to you.

Great article!

Lbockhorn (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)lbockhorn[reply]

Peer Review[edit]

Great article on an interesting topic! I just have a few suggestions that I hope help to strengthen your article. The first is that I think it would be helpful if you expand and add more detail to the "Notable cases" section. You introduce the first case and then follow it up with another case without providing names or any sort of background. If you include more detail, it would be beneficial to the reader. I also recommend adding a subsection "Statistics" section so that you separate statistics from information about reduction and the progress that has been made along those lines. Also, make sure you are using the correct capitalization style. You can refer to this page for more information WP:MOSCAPS. Overall, great work!! Cnovoa17 (talk) 00:33, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Armbrust The Homunculus 11:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Honour killing in Pakistan → Honour killings in Pakistan – It should be plural. Per WP:PLURALPT. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 13:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC) Rameshnta909 (talk) 14:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • comment is this article about the concept of "honour killings" in Pakistan, or the action of honour killings in Pakistan? If it is about the concept, with examples of it, then it should not be pluralized. However, the proposed title should still be a redirect if it isn't the article title, as should Honor killing in Pakistan and Honor killings in Pakistan. -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 04:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Regarding Hudood Ordinance section[edit]

Hi, friends.I hope you would understand.[User:Northamerica1000] just revised one of my recent edit in section "Hudood Ordinance".I found no relevance of this section to the subject.You may read the section yourself.Section "1990 Qisas and Diyat Ordinance" is totally relevant with the subject matter.There is no question on sourcing.No matter if it has good sources or not.Just assume, for example, if I Add something about zoo in the article of Obama with all sources will it be accepted their? Hope you all would support me in my edit.Ejaz92 (talk) 18:26, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

1990 Qisas and Diyat Ordinance - Large chunk of text removed and not replaced[edit]

In these 3 edits, unregistered user 86.121.55.107 removed section "1990 Qisas and Diyat Ordinance" completely and updated/extended other sections somewhat, on occastion that new laws were implemented in 2016.
However, I strongly feel that the mentioned section should be reinstated and updated with the changes instead. Now the article only superficially covers what "the situation" was like before.
Maybe the section can be put in place as-it-was, but I'm not motivated to read the whole article and edit accordingly. I just found it important to point out what was now suddenly lacking, and hope that some other editor will have a look at this. -- Katana (talk) 00:33, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Plans to Update and Edit Page[edit]

I am working on updating this article. Please see basic explanation of my plans below.


Updated Outline

  • 1 Background
  • 1.1 Terminology related to honour killing
  • 1.2 Types of honour killing in Pakistan
  • 1.3 Cultural pressures for honour killing in Pakistan
  • 2 Prevalence
  • 2.1 Comparison of demographics
  • 2.2 Complications in data
  • 3 Specific occurrences
  • 3.1 Pakistan honour killings in the news
  • 4 Pakistani law
  • 4.1 Legal reforms
  • 4.2 Societal responses to legal reform
  • 5 International activism
  • 5.1 Effect of international activism
  • 5.2 Proposed international activism
  • 6 Pakistani activism
  • 6.1 Effect of Pakistani activism
  • 6.2 Proposed Pakistani activism
  • 7 Other proposed solutions
  • 8 See also
  • 9 References
  • 10 External links


Introduction
The first section of the Wikipedia page “Honour killing in Pakistan”, the introduction, is missing references and has a possible incorrect description of terminology. In the first sentence of the first section, it says that “karo-kari” is the term that is used in Pakistan for honour killing. There is no reference cited for this fact. Amir Jafri discusses this in his book, Honour killing: dilemma, ritual, understanding (2008). Jafri’s book can be used as a reference for this fact. I would like to look into this fact more though because I also found multiple resources that also said that karo-kari is just a form of honour killing and not honour killing itself. From these, I have come to conclude that karo-kari is a term used both for honour killing itself but also as a form of honour killing (Patel & Gadit, 2008). My plan is to research this terminology more and then clarify this either in a section I would like to create called “Types of honour killing in Pakistan” or instead to add this to the “Background” section. The description in the introduction of karo-kari will also be moved to this section. Additionally, there are no citations for the description, so I will add that from the two citations described above. In addition, this section needs a link to the “Pakistan” page on Wikipedia.


Background
In addition to adding the description of the definition of karo-kari to the “Background” section, this section also needs additional references to support its claims. For example, the first sentence is just a basic description of honour killing, which can be cited from multiple sources. In addition, the first part of the second paragraph is really general about patriarchal cultures and should be more focused on Pakistan’s patriarchal culture. The citation is Pakistan specific, but is from 1999, which is almost 20 hours old. An updated citation needs to be found in order to ensure that it is updated with possible changes to Pakistan’s patriarchal culture. Additionally, there are a couple other sentences in that section that don’t have any reference to back them up, such as the purpose for the murder. I plan on updating and/or correcting, if needed, and then adding a reference to every sentence listed in this section. I am still researching references for this section.


Prevalence
The “Prevalence” section should be updated, as the statistics are old. The most recent statistics are from 2015; this is something that other editors bring attention to in the “talk” page as well. I would also like to restructure the first two paragraphs of this section (not including “Complications in data”) so that it is chronological based on the history of data that is available. Additionally, this section doesn’t discuss the difference in statistics between men and women and how many men have died in honour killings. I would like to add this statistic.


Specific occurrences
Under the “Specific occurrences” section, I would like to add a subsection of “Pakistan honour killings in the news.” I think this is a strong subsection because it will help readers see the prevalence of the honour killings. It will need to be a section that is updated regularly, but the way I plan to structure the page should make it easy to edit and add. In addition, I would like to add a paragraph about the attempted honour killing that is highlighted in the documentary “A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness.” I also plan on adding a link to the Wikipedia page for the documentary. Additionally, I want to add a section about Samia Shahid whose story is featured in the BBC documentary “Murdered for Love?”. There is not currently a Wikipedia page for the documentary, so I will not have any link to add for this.


Pakistani law
The “Legal reforms” subsection is under the “Pakistani activism” section, where really it should actually be under the “Pakistani law” section. I plan on moving this section up and simply combining it into this section because legal reforms are discussed in both sections. The 2016 bill is briefly discussed in the “Pakistani law” section. The news article used to cite this is okay, but a much better reference would be the actual bill. I plan on adding a citation for the actual bill. In addition, there were actually two different bills that passed during 2016 and the second bill isn’t discussed at all (possibly because it is a region bill and not a country-wide bill). The country-wide bill is the “The Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 2016. The area-specific bill is “The Punjab Protection of Women Against Violence Act 2016.” There is also a 2006 bill that was passed that affects honour killing that isn’t listed here, “Protection of Women (Criminal Acts Amendment) Act, 2006.” I would like to add a more specific description of each of this and add any missing pieces. Additionally, I think a subsection titled “Societal responses to legal reform” should be added which discusses how the bill affected the occurrence of honour killing in Pakistan.


International activism
The “International activism” section is lacking in citations and clarifications. A little is discussed about how these international actors relate to Pakistan, but this discussion is minimal. I would like to expound on this section since it is about 10 years old and there may be additional points to add to the discussion, such as the western produced documentaries discussed above. Also, this section is missing citations and under the “talk” a lot of explanation and clarification is requested. In a subsection of this I would like to discuss Appiah’s solutions relevant to International activism.


Pakistani activism
Finally, the “Pakistani activism” section is missing many of the Pakistani organizations and activists that are currently during work in Pakistan. I would like to add two subsections to this section of “Pakistani organizations” and “Pakistani activists.” I think this would help enhance the understanding of how specific and wide-spread the activism. I still need to perform research to learn of a complete list to use in this section. In a subsection of this I would like to discuss Appiah’s solutions relevant to Pakistani activism.


Other proposed solutions
In the sections “International activism” and “Pakistani activism,” I plan on added proposed solutions relevant to those sections. This section is for other proposed solutions that don’t fall under those umbrellas.


Possible complications
One of the major possible complications that I see is avoiding putting in materials that should be in the parent article of “Honor killing.” A good amount of authors have spoken specifically on honour killing in Pakistan, but the majority tend to speak of it in more general terms. I think sifting through and ensuring the information is relevant will prove to be a challenge. Also, I have read a fair number of suggestions and proposed solutions by non-academic sources, but Pakistani natives in the blogs. I think deciding which of these should and shouldn’t be included will pose to be a challenge.


Comparing to class-B article
I looked at the article, “2012-13 Egyptian protests” to see what a class-B article looks like. I chose this article because a portion of the references are from news sources, which will also be the case for the article I am working on. I appreciated how certain facts were cited by multiple sources if they were in multiple sources (if mentioned in eight news articles, then all were cited). I think this brought increased credibility to the article. The article is very thorough in its description and clear in connecting ideas. It was also a hearty article with information. I think it will be hard to transition the “Honour killing in Pakistan” to be the same, because this article really is very fact based and mine is more academic. Nevertheless, I learned from the “2012-13 Egyptian protests” article that it is important to share all sources of information, be clear, and be hearty. I think these will really help increase the rating of the Pakistani article, especially with added extensive references.

UniversityofUtahGrad (talk) 06:14, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@UniversityofUtahGrad: it sounds like you're on track to make significant improvements to this article. That's great. Thanks for explaining your plans. I would just recommend making your changes in increments that can be easily reviewed by fellow Wikipedians, and handled individually if there are disagreements, rather than doing a major overhaul in a single edit. Eperoton (talk) 02:19, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of comments[edit]

The overall quality of the article was very well written because it was simple and clean but at the same time very detailed. I was thoroughly impressed by how much useful information I got reading the article without having to be an expert on the topic. All the data collected really put things into perspectives but just double check to cite everything that is associated with numbers. Continue and expand on your sections that you didn’t get a chance to yet. Cut back on any additional information that is irrelevant or rearrange your ideas, thoughts, or information to other possible sections that might be more fitting to that certain topic. Also, it is vital to double check and see if there are enough citations throughout the article for reliable/accurate references and sources especially following every number or a series of data. I think you are doing an excellent job improving the article. Continue to keep it short, simple, and clean. It’s always better to over cite something than to under cite. When in doubt, provide citations so that you can always be on the safe side of things and no one can accuse you of plagiarism. Huynhjenny (talk) 04:32, 26 April 2018 (UTC)huynhjenny[reply]

Expanded Page[edit]

Hi all, I significantly expanded this page to include, primarily, more recent legal reforms. I only removed a few words here and there, but I did rearrange some sections and paragraphs in a way that is more easier to follow. Let me know your thoughts! UniversityofUtahGrad (talk) 03:52, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Refs[edit]


Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Ambassador Program course assignment[edit]

This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Rice University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available on the course page.

The above message was substituted from {{WAP assignment}} by PrimeBOT (talk) on 16:26, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01[edit]

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ashk310 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: JennyJimenez15.

— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 17:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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