Talk:List of European supercentenarians

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Orphaned references in List of European supercentenarians[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of European supercentenarians's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "GRG":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 12:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Eugenie Blanchard or Lucia Lauria Vigna?[edit]

Who is oldest European? I'm not really sure. Guadoloupe is a French Island, and thus in the EU, both strictly speaking it is not a European island geographically, but only politically. So, is Europe seen as a geographic continent or a political body? Yubiquitoyama (talk) 12:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Europe is not a political entity, it is a geographical entity. Switzerland, for example is in Europe but is not in the EU. Europe is not the same as the EU. Guadeloupe is part of France. And it is part of the EU. However it is not part of the geographical entity 'Europe'. Therefore Lucia Lauria Vigna is the oldest in Europe, but Eugenie Blanchard is the oldest in the EU. SiameseTurtle (talk) 17:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Consider this:

A. If you were to ask the question, is France's oldest person older than the oldest person in the UK, what would the answer be? "Yes."

2. "Europe" is not a real geographic entity; it is a peninsula. "Eurasia" is the geographic entity.

3. Blanchard is ethnically French, her documents are in French. Even if this were a "colony" then she is a colonialist. And what about Anne Primout? Born in 1890 in "Algeria" but died in France...Ryoung122 01:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, I believe some sort of consensus must be reached. My personal opinion (which I do not intend to fight for but will voice nontheless; I keep myself low-key) is that a geographic view should be had. Otherwise a person seizes to be European for pure political reasons, which I don't think should be the case. However, a seperate list of such cases who belong to a "european country" could be added to the existent lists. As for Anne Primout and Lucy D'Abreau, I personally think that birthplace should be the measure, so that they are not eligible to be on this list. As of now though, all who either was born or died in a European country are on these lists. Eugenie Blanchard was neither, form a geographical viewpoint, only from a political. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much opinions on this and the vandal will of course keep adding Eugenie Blanchard without going via the talk page regardless. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 10:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

In response to Robert, Blanchard is the oldest in France. Europe is a continent of its own right regardless of it sharing the landmass with another continent. What someone ethnically is is irrelevant for this page. This is about the oldest person living in Europe. Blanchard does not live in Europe, she lives in North America. However, as a compromise we could add a note mentioning that Blanchard is the oldest person in the EU. SiameseTurtle (talk) 13:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I think a "footnote" solution is best, as it would allow a pluralistic viewpoint (both major views being expressed). Let the reader decide.

After all, Hawaii is geographically NOT part of the North American continental plate. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. Is he "not an American"?Ryoung122 05:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is really a question of what we mean by "European". Eugenie Blanchard is without a doubt French as Obama is American (in the sense that he is from the US). It is not clear to me that people living in Hawaii should be considered "North americans" (as pertains to the continent). Since Obama lives mainland right now, it is not entirely analogous, since we actually list those who ended up in Europe. It becomes even more muddled when talking about countries that does not have a clear European status, such as Russia. The country is partly in Europe, but I don't think someone from the east coast of Asian Russia should be counted as European, although he/she is undoubtedly Russian. In any case, it really comes down to choice of what we want to list here. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 09:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, Obama is an "American" even though he was born in Hawaii. So, just a point, there is a difference between "in Europe" and "European." Eugenie Blanchard is "European" as she lives in "part of France," speaks French, is counted in the French census, and recognized as France's oldest living person or the "doyenne de France." Europe is not really a continent, anyway.Ryoung122 03:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Hawaii is in the USA and so he is American. Saying that Europe is not really a continent doesn't really make much sense: It's widely accepted and what's a continent and what isn't is not governed by tectonic plates. People in Argentina speak Spanish, but they are not European. She lives in an overseas region that is not within the European continent but is governed by a European country. SiameseTurtle (talk) 06:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Geologically, Eurasia is a continent, Europe is a peninsula.

As for Eugenie Blanchard, she is recognized as France's oldest person:

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2009/03/04/568156-Le-nouveau-doyen-des-hommes-francais-vit-a-Capbreton-dans-les-Landes.html

Excluding her is original research.Ryoung122 05:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Hawaii is geologically NOT part of North America, and socio-culturally part of Oceania and Polynesia. Yet it is considered part of the United States. Hawaii has representation in the U.S. Congress and its population is counted as part of the U.S. in the census. Likewise, St. Barths is politically part of France, with political representation and is counted as part of France's population (am I wrong?). The news state that Eugenie Blanchard is the "doyenne" of France. St. Barts is part of the European Union. Geologically, Europe is not even a continent.

Also, this article's very existence is not clear: do we have any articles on "List of Asian supercentenarians"? "List of North American supercentenarians"?Ryoung122 05:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Born in Europe or dead in Europe?[edit]

I think birth in Europe should be what makes an SC "European", but has anyone another thought about this? As it is, Christian Mortensen was born in Europe but did not die in Europe. For Lucy d'Abreau the opposite holds. This would at the least mean that Dina Manfredini and Berta Rosenberg (both born in Europe) should be added to "living" list, but perhaps other changes should be made as well/instead. I don't think Lucy d'Abreau really belongs on this list. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I personally prefer to leave it up to the user to decide, and list anyone who was born, or who died in Europe. SiameseTurtle (talk) 16:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection?[edit]

There is a most annoying user around this and some other "old people"-articles changing a few data without regard for any other's opinions and without engaging in talk. The user in question frequently changes IP, but the changes are so consistent that it cannot be different people doing them. In this article he/she continues to include Eugenie Blanchard without going via the talk page. Is tghere some possibility of semi-protection or the like for this page? Yubiquitoyama (talk) 10:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I support semi-protection although I don't know how to set it up. According to Wikipedia rules though I'm not allowed to revert the vandalism any more today. SiameseTurtle (talk) 13:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I Finally found out how to do it. I also submitted the 100 oldest men, and 100 oldest people articles too. SiameseTurtle (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Double names[edit]

Someone constantly remove double names. I know (from another old people page) that there is a case for removing double names for italians, since they are normally not called by the double but rather a simple surname. However, for most others, this isn't the case, so if someone wants to remove those names, take this on this talk page. GRG has double names and is the source, so a good argument it must be. To even remove some double first names requires more knowledge than any source gives (and has been proven false in some cases). Yubiquitoyama (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Missing Julia Sinédia-Cazour[edit]

can some registerd user add Marie-Julia Sinédia-Cazour (July 12, 1892 – October 6, 2005) to the this list because its semiprotected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.3.174 (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

She was born and died on Réunion, which is not in Europe. Therefore she is in the same situation as Eugenie Blanchard and at least for the moment not eligible for this list. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 19:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
You do know that Luce Maced lived in Martinique? Martinique is also "part of France."Ryoung122 02:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I did not know that. Why does the grg homepage list her as being born and dying on (in?) "Reunion" (which is half around the world from Martinique although still in France)? In any case, the issue is still whether such cases as she and Eugenie Blanchard should be listed here or not. Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 07:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Are you sure? Julia Sinezia-Cazour was from Reunion, Luce Maced from Martinique...NOT the same person.Ryoung122 12:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, sorry, mea culpa. Of course you are right. I just thought (I blame the early morning, my too-small monitor and Uranus's influence on Jupiter ;)) you still talked about Julia Sinedia-Cazour... Yubiquitoyama (talk) 12:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Unverified supercentenarians[edit]

Greetings,

I don't think we should list unverified supercentenarians here, but it should be OK on the individual nation articles IF that nation conforms to the standard for unverified claims on the list of living supercentenarians. Note that the "national" framework alone is a limiter that makes it manageable, with the exception of the U.S. (too many cases).Ryoung122 05:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


European supercentenarians resident out of Europe[edit]

Dina Manfredini and Pasqualina Franco are European, so they must be in the table Living European supercentenarians that isn't Living supercentenarians in Europe. For this reason supercentenarians like Christian Mortensen, Grace Clawson and others are in the upper tables Oldest Europeans ever (Top 40) and 40 oldest male Europeans ever. European doesn't mean in Europe!--Pascar (talk) 13:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

A compromise would be to list them separately.Ryoung122 03:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, today there are only 2 European supercentenarians (validated) living out of Europe (both Italian). You could create another table, but then you have to change the name of the table to "Living supercentenarians in Europe", because Manfredini and Franco are European, and if you don't put them into "European Supercentenarians" you are wrong. But I think 1 table is enough: subjects of this article are European supercentenarians, not supercentenarians in Europe.--Pascar (talk) 19:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

One could also argue that Eugenie Blanchard is a "European supercentenarian resident out of Europe." Saying someone is "in Europe" is not the same as saying they are "European."

If the whole point of this page is to compare Europeans, then excluding Europeans defeats that purpose.

Ryoung122 11:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Europe is only a geographical concept, not administrative, so she isn't European. But she is in France (that is a nation) so she is the oldest in EU, but not in Europe. About Eugenie Blanchard this matter was already faced by GERONTOLOGY RESEARCH GROUP, and now Lucia Vigna is has title of oldest in Europe.--Pascar (talk) 00:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Just as a disclosure, I am a member of the Gerontology Research Group. The GRG does NOT give out titles for continents. And Europe is a political and cultural concept, not a geographical concept: geographically, Europe is part of Eurasia. Also, the point you missed was that "oldest in Europe" and "European" is not the same concept. If this table seeks to develop an exclusionary concept, it needs to be more specific. Also, why no "List of North American supercentenarians"?Ryoung122 10:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
No one ever refers to "North American supercentenarians", or it might have been a proper list to add. Also, the traditional continent Europe is still pretty well-defined. This notwithstanding, I agree with you that the existance of this list is somewhat questionable. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 12:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Europe is a continent (or a subcontinent, how you prefer), and a continent is only a geographical concept, with its borders. You can read it on every book of Geography, and on Wikipedia too. And Europe isn't a political concept: political concepts are France, and European Union in part. European means "in Europe" or "from Europe", so Eugenie Blanchard isn't European. Paris and Madrid are European, Saint Barthelemy and Canary Islands are American and African (i.e. in Americas and in Africa, that are continents). Saint Barthelemy is French and Canary Islands are Spanish (France and Spain are political concepts), they aren't in Europe but in European Union (that isn't a continent, but an economic union with "political borders").--Pascar (talk) 15:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

What Is The Purpose Of This Page?[edit]

Why does this page exist? We have individual pages for each European country, so what is the need? This appears to be somewhat redundant. I also don't feel it should be Wikipedia's objective to classify and separate people ethnically. TFBCT1 (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

At first I didn't see the point in this page, but I do think it serves a purpose as it's more on a par with the USA and Japan than the single pages. Typically the GRG list seems to be about 1/3 USA, 1/3 Japan, and 1/3 Europe. It's nice to see that the European title-holders have alternated between several countries rather than being dominated by just one. And it's not separating ethnically, or white Americans, Canadians and Australians would be included.SiameseTurtle (talk) 13:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment: this page seems not only redundant, but just another attempt at flag-waving: who has bragging rights as the "oldest European"?Ryoung122 05:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm ambivalent as to this. It does seem to be a bit of "flag-waving", but so is most of the lists of national/regional supercentenarians, and it isn't uncommon to refer to "oldest european", which makes me think it has at least some legitimacy.Yubiquitoyama (talk) 11:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I think an article "List of supercentenarians in Europe"'d be better than "List of European supercentenarians", anyway...--Pascar (talk) 10:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe that if this page is to exist, than we should also have a page that lists the oldest people in other continents as well, such as South America and North America, to make it fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.202.18.76 (User ) 07:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC) talk:173.202.18.76|talk


Luce Maced[edit]

Why is Luce Maced listed as one of the "40 oldest Europeans" but not Eugenie Blanchard? Maced lived in Martinique.Ryoung122 11:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Because I was too lazy to find out who would replace her and no one else seems to have bothered... Anyway, it is changed now (and I hope Maria Laqua is the one who should go in behind Astrid Zachrison).Yubiquitoyama (talk) 11:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

How do you pronuonce Luce Maced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjjd226 (talkcontribs) 00:56, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Recent changes[edit]

I do not agree with the recent changes that have been made.

  • Emigrant tables
They have no real purpose. Firstly, it's not even an emigrant table as it includes cases, such as Lucy d'Abreu who immigrated to Europe. Secondly, what's the point in saying person x is the 6th oldest person to be born in Europe, but died in another country? Lucy d'Abreu was recognised as the oldest living British person when she died. The table shunts emigrants and immigrants off the main table - almost claiming as if they cannot be considered European simply because they did not spend their whole life there. It also has factual inaccuracies regarding those in the tables. For example Herman Smith-Johannsen did not die in the USA. Therefore I am reverting good faith edits. SiameseTurtle (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I've changed the layout because: 1. Countries should be named simply and concisely. 2. As 90% of people are born in the same country, it's in violation of MOS:ICON to clutter the page with flags. 3. Emigrants are not counted in the total. On some pages immigrants aren't included either. Therefore all the emigrants end up in no-man's-land and not counted on any proper list. So what if someone is the fifth oldest European-born person to die in another country? It's more relevant to say they are the 40th oldest European. Wikipedia is about having a neutal point of view and in that respect, we should include all who can be considered European. SiameseTurtle (talk) 00:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with either of you. Let's not forget that the birth record is important, as all these are documented cases (where did the documents come from)? So, I disagree with Siamese Turtle. Consider, for example, in tennis: Maria Sharapova, born in Russia, came to the U.S. at age 5, yet she represented Russia in the Olympics. It is WRONG to say that simply because someone born in Europe moved elsewhere, they are not European. Also, according to the U.S. law, anyone born in the U.S. is an American citizen, even if they move abroad.

However, there is also an issue of changing boundaries, changing flags, former empires, etc. I'm not sure if we need to get into major detail about what flags flew when these people were born.Ryoung122 01:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you clarify where you disagree? I've always maintained that the birth country is important. What I disagree with is the use of two columns for the country when it's unnecessary, and listing immigrants and emigrants in a separate list. That simply means that anyone who ever died in another country to the one they were born in are not counted on ANY sensible list - and that in itself is fundamentally wrong. For example, Charlotte Benkner is not included as one of the oldest Europeans, nor is she included among the oldest Americans. And yes, they might be included on an insignificant emigrant list, but the rankings in that have no relevance at all and it's just a meaningless list. I don't particularly care if Charlotte Benkner is the third oldest person born in Europe to die outside of Europe. What I want to know is how highly she ranks among the oldest Europeans. SiameseTurtle (talk) 10:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree on this. The same goes for similar lists such as "nordic supercentenarians". On that list, it means the oldest nordic person ever (Christian Mortensen) is on the "emigrant list" which becomes simply absurd. Unfortunately the one constantly changing this does not seem to want to discuss it, and uses different IP-addresses all the time. Yubiquitoyama (talk) 13:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I continue to not understand why a same criterion isn't used for all the supercentenarians: for example among countries of birth I find German Emire, Russian Empire, Czechoslovakia, but also Ukraine, Austria, India, Poland... For all them either modern countries for all or past countries...--Pascar (talk) 11:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I think while it is important to be technically correct, we also need to make sure the information we give is not confusing.

1. It's unnecessary to list everyone's place of birth - I think it should only be listed when they have emigrated 2. In the case of residence or place of death, I think the country as it was at that time should be listed (eg West Germany and Czechoslovakia) 3. As for what we should list the places of birth for those who have emigrated, I'm less sure. On the one hand I think it's important to be historically accurate, but it's also important to not be misleading or confuse the readers. What I did for the unverified cases was try an idea that hadn't been done before: To list them in the table as their present-day country so the table is tidy (ie. No Russia Russian Empire (now  Ukraine)), but also have notes at the bottom to say what the countries were in the past. If people like the idea, then we can add it to the other tables. SiameseTurtle (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

No, you cannot change criterion case by case (?) in the SAME table! If you write German or Russian Empire for one person and Poland for another one, for two people born in same historical period the reader can understand the second person was really born in a Polish State. It is just an example. A table must have a rigorous structure, if not it is really misleading. So we have just to choose between reporting past countries or reporting present ones for all people in the table.--Pascar (talk) 21:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as I said I decided to try something different. I haven't changed the criteria case by case, let alone in the same table. However of course, the article as a whole should be consistent. SiameseTurtle (talk) 11:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
As for Benkner, she WAS recognized (for a time) as the oldest living American and world's oldest person. Although she lost the world title to Ramona Trinidad Iglesias-Jordan, she does rank on the all-time world list. I don't think having her on the "European" list is a good idea. She lived 108 of her 114 years in the United States, a nation that had no war on its home soil and a different way of live and a higher rate of people living to 100+. Notably, no one in Germany has lived to even 113 yet, but emigrants from Germany have reached age 113 and 114 in the U.S.Ryoung122 10:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Anna Baiesi?[edit]

I thought there was an unvalidated Italian woman said born Jan 17 1900?Ryoung122 09:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Oldest Europeans ever?[edit]

Why are overseas (emigrant) cases still listed? Were Florence Finch or Amalia Barone in Europe when they turned 113? I think not.Ryoung122 00:47, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

They should be reported in a separate table, but in this article, because they were European, even if not in Europe. European means from Europe, not only in Europe.--Pascar (talk) 10:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Oldest men list[edit]

Can someone tell me why we have a list of the oldest men in Europe which contains 108 and 109 in year olds in it? Since when did people under 110 become supercentenarians? This page is about SUPERCENTENARIANS (as the title states). They should be removed from this page immedately.Tim198 (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Emile Fourcade[edit]

Emile Fourcade (listed in the oldest men list) was born in French Algeria, such as Anne Primout who had been deleted because of her place of birth, even if she lived in Europe at the time of her death (just like Emile Fourcade). I think Emile Fourcade should also be deleted, or that all supercentenarians who died in Europe should be re-added into this article... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.114.212.79 (talk) 09:46, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is that there has been persistent vandalism to the article such that there's barely any consistency left. SiameseTurtle (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
It is the same with Marcelle Narbonne, born in French Algeria (but nobody has removed her yet, unless I would prefer another solution : re-adding all the supercentenarians who died in Europe, such as Anne Primout). I think this article really lacks of consistency. Its purpose should be clearly redefined... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.112.74.210 (talk) 11:56, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Oldest man in Europe[edit]

Here a list of the oldest living men in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_living_men Well, Michael Tsyunyak and Józef Kowalski are both unverified (so same position) but the Ukraine is oldest than the Polish. So for sure we cannot neglect Tsyunyak (and consider only Kowalski) because the first is oldest than Stanley Lucas, verified man. According to me in this table only verified people should be reported (other unverified dead people aren't reported in the table, even if maybe oldest than others verified). So either the last place in the table has to be vacant (no oldest person verified by GRG or Epstein) or we have to report the oldest person verified by a GRG correspondent (so Jan Goossenaerts). But for sure we cannot report a man younger than another one, if they are both in same position (both unverified).--Pascar (talk) 18:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Herman Smith-Johannsen[edit]

According to me Herman Smith-Johannsen should be considered the oldest living person in Canada until his return to Norway where he was born. Then he became the oldest living person in Norway and Europe, even if he spent just few days or weeks there, before passing away. What do you think?--Pascar (talk) 23:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Oldest Euro males[edit]

The section "Chronological list of the oldest living man in Europe since 1984" in my opinion needs to be deleted.

  • No other articles (by country/continent) have "oldest men by year".
  • This section is near trivial due to it being irrelevant to the title oldest Europeans, rather than oldest European males.

--Nick Ornstein (talk) 01:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, where do you see "oldest men by year" in this article? Then, oldest European males are... European.--Pascar (talk) 08:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Mary Rothstein[edit]

NickOrnstein: You added Mary Rothstein[1] and cited this news article in your edit summary. However, you didn't add the cite to the article itself. Why? The information is unsourced and might be removed by another editor at a later date for being unsourced. You should be including these cites in the article itself. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

It does not just apply to this article. All supercentenarians by country articles don't cite cases because all of them direct to List of living supercentenarians. It has been this way for almost a whole year. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
I know it might sound crazy, but that's not how things are supposed to work around here. Generally speaking, every article should be verifiable on its own. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Merger completed[edit]

Does anyone know if there's another step to take? My reading says no, that a bot handles the rest. Is that correct? David in DC (talk) 00:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

What is appropriately encyclopedic content for longevity related biographies[edit]

There is currently a discussion about what constitutes encyclopedia content on longevity related biographies at Talk:Gertrude Weaver#What is appropriately encyclopedic content for longevity related biographies please comment. I am One of Many (talk) 18:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)