Talk:List of undefeated mixed martial artists

Why 7 wins[edit]

Why is 7 wins the starting point for the list. Wouldn't a number like 10 make more sense and have more significance? I'm not saying that it should be changed, I'm just wondering where the 7 wins requirement came from. Jeicex1 (talk) 02:22, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. TylerBurden (talk) 12:55, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adding references[edit]

@HeinzMaster, your recent edit where you removed all fighters with less than 9 wins was confusing for me for a while, but then I realised it was in the best interest of the article to not make it too long and meandering. That said, would it be alright with you if I added the Sherdog and Tapology links for each fighter as references? I wonder why this has not been done yet, you seem like an active maintainer of this article so I thought I should ask you before making these changes. Matarisvan (talk) 06:59, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: This still needs to be done if you're up for it. Nswix (talk) 18:52, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

7 to 10[edit]

@HeinzMaster and I agree the arbitrary number of seven wins no longer suits the current MMA landscape. @Dr. Chaotic votes for seven. Any other votes? Nswix (talk) 15:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't vote for 7 actually. What I am saying is that we should KEEP the fighters are currently undefeated at 7-0 and as they lose, we remove them. Starting now we should not add any more unless they have over 10 wins, but keep those that are existing. I agree that 7 is a very random weird number, and I'm fine raising the standard to 10. Just stop removing the fighters that are already on the list with less than 10 wins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr. Chaotic (talk • contribs) 21:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That makes no sense. Just leave it at ten. Not "ten, but also some with seven-ish until they lose". Lists change all the time. If the rule is ten, and you also think it should be ten, leave it at ten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nswix (talk • contribs) 21:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: First, it's not clear to me why 7 or 10 are the options here. Per WP:LISTCRIT, list selection criteria should be unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources. Do reliable sources support calling MMA artists undefeated at 7 wins? 10 wins? Some other number of wins? Second, if the list is going to be 10 or more wins, then per LISTCRIT, it should be 10, not 10 plus some 7s. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: voorts, remove the dispute from the list once you decide to answer it, not after you answer it. This article cites no sources, so ten is just as arbitrary a number as seven. The topic meets LISTN though, so let's see what LISTN-establishing sources say.

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I, too, raised an eyebrow at seven. But it actually appears to have basis. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 00:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Snowmanonahoe: I thought I had, but apparently I never hit publish from quick edit. My bad. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the list was originally drafted it was 3 wins, this was early in the sport when not many people were competing, it went up to seven, which as the sport has grown, was still too many athletes and too much to manage. Ten is a good number, which every agrees upon, even the editor reverting my change. They simply don't want to lose the work they put in to those fighters with 7-9 wins, which defeats the purpose of changing the number.

Also, sources are an issue, and I'd be happy to get around to sourcing them, right after I know the edit isnt going to be reverted. Nswix (talk) 01:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ten is a good number, which every agrees upon, even the editor reverting my change. WP:LISTCRIT is the relevant guideline in setting the scope of a stand-alone list. In the sources cited by @Snowmanonahoe, ESPN defines their list as "made up of current, active fighters who are unbeaten and have accrued at least three wins in a top MMA promotion". Do you know of other sources with criteria similar to ESPN's? As I noted in my reply to Snowman, SportyTell does not appear to be reliable. Sherdog.com and Fox aren't helpful because Sherdog appears to list every single undefeated fighter in UFC, which is narrower in scope than this list, and Fox (which was published in 2014) only lists the then-top ten. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe there is a list of all the current undefeated fighters on this list. All I can find is the occasional round-up of "list of hottest prospects". This is all from their Sherdog profiles, which we've compiled over the years. Nswix (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SportyTell does not appear to be reliable. it is owned by Alony Media, which has a very iffy editorial policy: "Our writers do their very best at creating accurate information for our readers and they fact check, and test the info they publish to make sure it’s true and accurate. Either guides, informational or even just a funny articles with hilarious images. The team does its best to make the content on the best part possible." voorts (talk/contributions) 01:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want up-to-date fight record internationally, Sherdog fighter profile will be the one for source for it is independent and reliable and also it is the source we based on for fighter fight records on their Wikipedia page as per Wikipedia MMA guidelines. The sources will serve to meet the GNG and LISTCRIT notability guidelines. Cassiopeia talk 02:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vote "Support" or "Oppose" to change from 7 to 10 undefeated mixed martial artists @HeinzMaster, Dr. Chaotic, Nswix, Voorts, Snowmanonahoe, Rcpilot9, and Katanicx:

Support - MMA landscape has expanded in recent years thus more fighters have joined the sports and more fights are recorded. Plus 10 is a always a good number. Cassiopeia talk 02:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Per my arguments above, based on WP:LISTCRIT, we should follow how reliable sources rank MMA fighters, not arbitrarily cut the list off at 10. The ESPN criterion, "current, active fighters who are unbeaten and have accrued at least three wins in a top MMA promotion", seems narrow enough so that it would prevent WP:CRUFT being added to the list. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sherdog is independent, reliable source and not a CRUFT. There are only 2 sources of fighter fight records at present in the world that hold all the the international fighters fight record Sherdog and Tapology and Wikipedia MMA vote use Sherdog for the fight records for MMA fighter in Wikipedia. By the way, ESPN back then didnt have MMA content as they dont have MMA reporters and buy content from Sherdog and only recent years they have their own content and reporters and Sherdog was there since day 1 of MMA history. Furthermore, we are not talking about ranking or last "X" wins in "Y" promotion here. The article is about undefeated fighters of "Z" fights. If you want we can vote for "top and 2nd tier promotions" which has already voted in Wikipedia MMA Project guidelines.

If you want to use more diff sources for the article which the info would be updated as other MMA media will only post it from time to time, then I suggest to article to be deleted for it does not serve the purposed. Cassiopeia talk 02:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying that Sherdog is unreliable or cruft. Wikipedia has a guideline on what individual items should be included on a list, WP:LISTCRIT. That guideline says that a list should have a criterion (or rule) for determining what items should be on the list and what items should not. The rule must be "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources". Additionally, the guideline says that we should not create inclusion rules that are "original or arbitrary". 7 vs. 10 as a rule for what gets included in this list is an arbitrary determination that is not supported by reliable sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Voorts The article name is undefeated mma fighters which means even with 1 win and 0 defeat that is included. That says, too many fighters with the definition above in any promotions will be included which will be a long list and and that make the article fails guidelines that Wikipedia is not a directory. We here to discuss and agree the limitation entry of the list. That is the vote is for. For no sources will indicated what is the number (7 or 10 or 15 etc.) Here we suggest 10 undefeated win that the fighter needs to be in at least one win in tier 2 mma promotion and that can be stated in "Note" sub section to let the viewers know of the criteria of the list. Cassiopeia talk 02:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support for the reasons I've already outlined throughout this. Though I should note we need refs, hopefully adding Sherdog link in notes next to athletes name will suffice. Nswix (talk) 02:32, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]