Talk:Maine of Tethba

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I beleive given time the DNA evidence will show the Cenel Maine to be seperate from the Ui Maine.

My own ancestor's origin would place me north of the Ui Maine homeland. While the three different local genealogy text would have the family as either Ui Maine (twice) or a subject people of the Connacht. Yet my DNA make me either Ui Neill or Connacht and a historical recorded family with the same surname is found across the Shannon in Teffia and allied with O'Connors. They where displaced from their lands and lost to history; by the Norman conquest of Mide. (Note: the last annal entries place them active on the west side of the Shannon.)

I wonder if Maine mac Cearbhaill (d.538) could be the origin of Cenel Maine ('mac Neill')? With thirty years a generation the Cenel Maine pedigree would makes Maine 'of the pedigree' overlap with Maine mac Cearbhaill of the Southern Ui Neill... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.177.197 (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems Byrne's "Irish King and High Kings" is the source of the idea that Cenel Maine was a branch of Ui Maine:

"As for the Cenel Maine maic Neill, our two earliest genealogical manuscripts (both of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn of which date from the twelfth century) differ irreconcilably as to the pedigree of that Aed mac Brenainn who granted Durrow to Colum Cille. We may suspect then that eastern Maine was so successfully absorbed into the Ui Neill ambit that their kings, by a politic fiction, were accepted into the dominant dynastic circle. The parting of the ways between Connachta and Ui Neill then led to the total separation of the Ui Maine and Cenel Maine. The fact that the annalistic obit of Maine mac Neill in 440 is so much earlier than that of any of his supposed brothers also suggests that he was adopted into the dynasty some time after the synthetic historians had agreed to push back the date of Niall's reign by a generation or more."

First note Maine's brother Laegaire mac Neill was according to the same annals king in 432 and died cicra 462, Maine date is not problematic per se.

There is a desription of Bryne's views from Celtica: "Through Professor Byrne has litte doubt about the historicity of Niall himseld, he is quire properly reluctant to accept as Ui Neill some fo the lineages which claimed him as an ancestor. He suggest that 'some rulers managed to have their pedigrees grafted onto Niall's stem and Cenel Maine is a likely example of this. Ui Maine west of the Shannon and Cenel Maine to the east of it may once have formed one kingdom and the dynasty of the eastern part may have been accepted as Ui Neill once their territory was absorbed by the Ui Neill overkingdom."

Aed mac Brenainn of Cenel Maine pedigree (later 6th century) is placed by Margeret Dobbs's "The Territory and People of of Tethba" at Lissardowlan, Co. Longford per "The Life of Berach". While Bec mac Connla (d.c770) had his residence in North Tethba, for (per Dobbs) in 1282 an O’Farrell castle was at “Cluain Lis Bece mic Connla. Matching what is accepted history, i.e. the people of Teffia originate north of the River Inny and where forced south. Yet the Ui Maine of Connacht are from Maenmhagh lying around Loughrea, Co. Galway? It seems the argument that Ui Maine and Cenel Maine were one kingdom separated by the Shannon is false. For it is an accident of history that Cenel Maine of Teffia became neighbors with Ui Maine.

Maine son of Neill is named in "The Tripartite Life of Patrick". Whitley Stokes dates the text to the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century, however others says later 9th century. Therefore it can seen that Cenel Maine is older then the pedigrees quote by Bryne. 68.196.44.146 (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DNA HAS PROVEN NOTHING YET[edit]

There are M222+ testees (M222 which is under DF21) with surnames associated with Cenel Maine families. To claim that DNA has disproven the association is premature. (There are also O'Neills that are M222+ too, though yet untested for the SNP S588 (which is under M222 and S660) and common to Cenel Eoghain Surnames (O'Kane, MacLoughlin, O'Donnelly, O'Lane).

The Ui Maine results (Kellys, Madden) are Z2961. Hence the Ui Maine are close relatives of the Ui Neill (who are also Z2961+). Members of Cenel Maine, be they Ui Maine in origin or Ui Neill will be Z2961+. I haven't yet seen any Cenel Maine surnames associated with Z2961+ only, but have seen Cenel Maine surnames that are Z2961+ and M222+ (sub group S660+), i.e. Dal Cuinn in orgin.

This DNA post begins with an error. M222 (O'Neill) is not under DF21. M222 is under DF49

Collas are DF21, Seven Septs are DF21, O'Ferralls are Z253 as well as the O'Duibhgeannain hereditary historians for O'Farrell and other subsequent tribes of the area. The O'Duibhgeannain are said to have been decended from Tadgan and ultimately from Adgha Mac Duibhcend. I believe this supports the above authors conclusions that DNA shows that these tribes were absorbed by the O'Neill and were not of the O'Neill. Clans were not homogeneous they were corporations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.150.196.164 (talk) 01:11, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]