Talk:Mashan Miao

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Tones[edit]

There are in principle 8 tone classes in Southern, Southwestern and Southeastern Mashan, and 12 tone classes (1a, 1b, 2, 3a, 3b, 4, 5a, 5b, 6, 7a, 7b, 8) in Central and Western Mashan. Mergers occur in some varieties. At least two varieties of Central Mashan have been documented: Jiaotuozhai (Wang-Mao 1995 and Li 2000) and Dadiba (Wu-Yang 2010). The two villages are 2km apart. Jiaotuozhai has 12 tones: 1a=32, 1b=22, 2=53, 3a=42, 3b=232, 4=11, 5a=55, 5b=35, 6=33, 7a=44, 6=7b=13, 8=21 (most words of tone 6 merged into tone 7b; those that didn't are marked with 6). According to Wu-Yang (2010), Dadiba has at most 11 tones: tone 6 merged into tones 1b and 7b. It is indeed unclear whether tones 2 and 5a also merged in Dadiba. However, changing 55 to 53 won't help, as the contour of tone 3a is also 53. Daltac (talk) 07:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

In the part that gives 2 as 53, 3a is 42, so they would still be distinct.
I'll try fixing tomorrow.
Are any of the tones accompanied by creaky or breathy voice? — kwami (talk) 11:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The part that gives 2 as 53 is not Dadiba, but Jiaotuozhai. In Jiaotuozhai, tones 1b, 3b, 4, 5b, 6=7b are breathy (but tone 6 is not). Tones 4 and 6 also alter the quality of several vowels. Daltac (talk) 20:58, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

4 and all of 6? or just 6?
Which Dadiba tones are breathy? the same?
Thanks, — kwami (talk) 09:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

When Wang-Mao writes 6, it means 6 excluding 6.

Don't know about Dadiba. Daltac (talk) 10:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll call it '7b' then. — kwami (talk) 10:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Tone 7b doesn't alter vowels in general. Only in those words that were tone 6, but has merged into tone 7b, are certain vowels altered. Daltac (talk) 10:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Got it. — kwami (talk) 10:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

On Dadiba, it is unlikely that either tone 2 or 5a is breathy. The b-tones are likely to be breathy because they had aspirated onset in proto-Hmong. Other than that, breathy tones typically occur only in tones 4 and 6. Daltac (talk) 10:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)