Talk:Mongolian writing systems/Archive 1

Archive 1

Two questions about the content

Two points:

• There is hPaghs-pa character in between the period using the Mongolian script.
• Did the Mongolian uses Jurchen/Tangut characters other than Han characters before they use the Mongolian script?

218.188.0.150 (talk) 02:05, 21 October 2003 (UTC)

Unicode

Does anyone know if the Mongolian alphabet was Unicode-ized? If it was it would be good to put a chart here. Wikiacc 21:55, 18 December 2004 (UTC)

There is a Mongolian alphabet in Unicode, see [1], also compare the roadmaps [2], [3]. If you know which Mongalian script this is, you can add the info to the article. --Pjacobi 22:22, 18 December 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I found a proposal to encode Phagspa [4], so the already encoded Mongolian would, be the "Mongolian script proper", I assume. And now, I've found it also in the roadmap. It is roadmapped for U+A840..U+A880. --Pjacobi 22:30, 18 December 2004 (UTC)

Well, obviously the Latin- and Cyrillic-based ones have already been Unicode-ized. The traditional script I am looking into, thanks for the chart. If you or anyone else wants to do it first, please do so, I will have to see if I have any supporting fonts and all that. Wikiacc 23:39, 18 December 2004 (UTC)

Category:Languages of China

Some IP keeps on putting this in Category:Languages of China. Does this belong in that category? I'm of the impression that it doesn't, because an "alphabet" is not the same thing as a "language". Comments? Wikiacc 21:32, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree. The whole "Languages of" idea is somewhat flawed, but I won't interfere with it. But by simple application of logic it is clear that "X alphabet" cannot be in "Category:Languages of Y". --Pjacobi 15:24, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)

This is what the IP posted on my talk page:

1. The Mongolian lanugage used to be written with a derivative of Han characters, from Khitan language.

2. Mongolia was part of Chinese history.

3. There are sizeable Mongolian speakers in present-day Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region of the PRC.

Thank you.

I think by this comment the anon was referring to Mongolian language which does fit into that category by the reasons described. But "Mongolian alphabet" is the page at issue here, not "Mongolian language". Wikiacc 21:04, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes categorizing should be easy, as long as we have separate language and script articles, as is the case here. --Pjacobi 21:29, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)

In the text accompanying the .png file with the word Mongol there is a summary that states that the columns of mongolian are written from right to left. This should be from left to right, as is also stated in the main page. --Malo Hautus 20:50, 2006 Jan 16

I have mistaken the writing direction. The text accompanying the .png files have been corrected.--Hello World! 15:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Mongolian Wikipedia

The Mongolian Wikipedia uses the still common Cyrillic script, but a Mongolian Wiki should also use the Mongolian script proper. -Alexander 007 19:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

In theory "Yes". Gantuya Eng

Split?

I'd like to split this article into:

• brief history of writing systems applied to the Mongolian language
• individual writing systems.

The former will be titled Mongolian writing system or Mongolian writing systems, and I will introduce the classical Mongolian script, 'Phags-pa script (Square script), Todo script, Soyombo script, Horizontal square script, Ali Gali, Vagindra script, Latin alphabet and Cyrillic alphabet (and perhaps the Khitan script). --Nanshu 01:11, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Our naming conventions ask us to use singlular form when it exists, so this would cause too much confusion. Just use different section headers. --Jiang 01:29, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Then I will put the former at Mongolian writing system. I don't like to put different things at the same page (and I think my opinion conforms to Wikipedia's policy).

One problem is that both the traditional Mongolian script and the extended Cyrillic alphabet are called "Mongolian alphabet". --Nanshu 02:48, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Trying to disambiguate things with plural/singular is just going to confuse people. Try Mongolian alphabet (traditional) and Mongolian alphabet (Cyrillic). Things should be really on the same page if theyre related though. A separate article on the writing system as a whole is not needed - that can be simply done at Mongolian language as it is done for all other languages. --Jiang 04:50, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

But there is no other language that has been applied more writing systems than the Mongolian language (and that's why I'm interested in Mongolian). Ths history of writing systems is worth separate article. --Nanshu 03:23, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Go ahead and write whatever...we can always move/merge if the need is present. --Jiang 03:49, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dont forget also that a latin based system was in use in the 1930's but was dropped in favour of a cyrillic based system. I have a reference (but have not had a chance to follow it up):- Edward A. Allworth "Nationalities of the Soviet East: Publications and Writing Systems" (Columbia U.P. 1971) —talpa

Would anyone be willing to do an article on Mongolian calligraphy? The linked page's (in this article) examples are most outstanding and very beautiful, they represent an entirely different approach to calligraphy than the more well-known (in Western countries) Islamic and Japanese (etc) calligraphies; they have a peculiar artistic quality that is absent from the better-known types of calligraphy, leading me to believe that the philosophy behind it is just as different. I have never seen anything even remotely like it. Dysmorodrepanis 13:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

One question about the year

I guess the year 1208 is wrong, because no matter on the Secret History of the Mongols, on the yüan-shi, or on the Jāmi` al-Tawārīkh of Rashīd al-Dīn, Genghis Khan defeated the Naimans on Spring 1204 (the year of the Rat or Islamic 600), and held a great Qural on Spring of the year of Tiger 1206 ( Islamic 602, which means he had conquered all mongols ), had he not captured Tatar-tonga till 1208? Though I know it is a little not so clear on the origin texts about when Tatar-tonga was captured. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.230.81.102 (talk) 01:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

The only souce I've seen says 1208, so it will have to remain at that for the moment. After all, it isn't necessary that Tatar-Tonga created the script in the same year where he was captured (before that would obviously be a problem...). --Latebird 14:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Mongolian writing systems vs. Mongolian script

If nobody objects, then I'm going to move this page to Mongolian writing systems, to make room for an article about the classic Mongolian script. Anyone interested in writing Mongolian Cyrillic script? Because that will then be the last important omission around here. --Latebird 14:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Folded script

Moved this discussion to Talk:Mongolian script, which previously redirected here. --Latebird 01:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Mongolian Scouting

Can someone render Belen Bol (Be Prepared), the Scout Motto, into Mongolian Cyrillic? Thanks! Chris 15:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

chinese alphabet?

theres no such thing as chinese alphabet. even pinyin is just romanization, not an alphabet, why someone spam page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.73.83 (talk) 05:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes, not everyone is familiar with the different english words for alphabet and characters. In this case, someone apparently objected against including the Khitan scripts in this article. Yaan (talk) 12:15, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

why isnt mongolian script included in mongolian wikipedia? they could use the same subsitution tajik wikipedia does with both cyrillic and latin alphabet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.150.240 (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I guess one reason is that currently only windows vista can display traditional Mongolian well. Here on English Wikipedia most of the traditional script is included as a picture for exactly this reason. Another problem might be different orthography (does that problem exist in Tajik?). You either need some kind of dictionary file or every page has to entered twice. From my personal experience, it also seems as if many people in Mongolia are simply much more comfortable with the cyrillic script. Of course none of these problems seem really unsolvable, maybe you should just try to convince people over at mn.wikipedia.org. Yaan (talk) 23:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Foreign scripts: Tibetan and Moghol

(I think) Heissig Bawden in his Modern History of Mongolia, 1968, p.248, writes that among the clergy, writing Mongolian with Tibetan letters was quite popular in the late 19th not uncommon during the early 20th cetury, and that in the 20s or 30s there even was a newspaper for monks printed in Mongolian language, but with Tibetan letters. Damdinsuren's Mongol uran sohiolyn 100 bileg orushvai (or so) contains a few poems (by Danzanravjaa?) in Tibetan script, but I am not sure whether the language is Tibetan or Mongolian.(The Tibetan texts are from the Zaya Bandida, and whatever they are, for a transcription of the accompanying Mongolian their length is too irregular)

Also, should Moghol as an example of a Mongolic language that used arabic letters be mentioned here? Yaan (talk) 13:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

additional source

here — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaan (talk • contribs) 18:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Mongolian Alphabet Has No Relation to Chinese Alphabet

Mongolia's first known biggest empire was Hunnu Empire which was in 209BC. China was named different at that time and it was a neighbor of Hunnu Empire. China built Great Wall to protect from its neighbor "north barbarians" - Mongolians. Mongolia and China are two separate countries and Mongolia never used Chinese alphabet in its history. Whoever works on Wikipedia project, please don't try to "create" biased history to brainwash people by forcing wrong information. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omnip (talk • contribs).

Implying that Chinese people use an "alphabet", and not ideographs. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 11:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Thank you for that. This is what I mean when I try to convince the developers of the "Table of the Chinese Monarchs" and some other pages. As my colleague Canadian once said to me "Chinese and Manchurian are the same thing for a British reader", it seems very difficult to convince them in the differences. China has always played on this situation claiming its neighbouring countries as their territory. That's similar to the situation that rural Mongolians call any westerner "Russian" or sometimes all westeners are "Americans" for many Mongolians But not every westerner likes to be perceived as a Russian ot American. Gantuya Eng

Although this discussion is over for almost 3 years, I think the optical similarity of Khitan and Chinese characters is quite obvious. Of course that does not yet mean that Khitan script has to be included in this article, unless we want to widen the article's scope.

Move to Mongol aphabets

It alphabets isn't related modern Mongolian language. They are historical. They are related Mongols in modern Mongolia, Russia and China in 13-21 century. Thus, This article's name must be "Mongol alphabets", further "Mongol scripts". — Preceding unsigned comment added by MongolWiki (talk • contribs) 11:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

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On the Uyghur script being rotated 90 degrees anti-clockwise

“This is because the Uyghurs rotated their script 90 degrees anticlockwise to emulate the Chinese writing system.”

If the Uyghur language was written from top to bottom, and either right to left or left to right, then rotated 90 degrees anti-clockwise, this would be equivalent to writing left to right, and in some vertical direction depending on the original horizontal direction. This would not conform to classical Chinese orthography which was predominantly top to bottom and right to left, focusing on the fact it was always from right to left. 杜浩然 (talk) 19:17, 25 February 2019 (UTC)