Talk:Saleh and Daoud Al-Kuwaity

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Biography: Musicians

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Author of the text[edit]

The author claims that he owns the copyright to this text. Please see this note (s)he left me. Broken Segue 00:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citizenship of the brothers and almost year long edit warring dispute[edit]

The brothers were born in the early 1900s. At the time they were born, there was no such thing as Kuwaiti citizenship. Kuwait was not a country and Kuwait had no citizens in the literal sense of the word. There were no passports. It was a Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire's Basra disrict. So saying that the brothers were "foreign nationals in Kuwait" is false historic revisionism because:

Up until the 1960s, no one in the world had Kuwaiti citizenship not even the Emir of Kuwait and Al Sabah ruling family had any Kuwaiti citizenship. The idea of "Kuwaiti citizenship didn't exist at all. There are too many reliable first-hand academic and historic references. According to the Kuwait nationality law at the time the brothers were alive, they are "Kuwaiti". Anyone born in Kuwait before 1920 regardless of religion and ancestral background was "Kuwaiti". We do not get to decide who is Kuwaiti and who is not Kuwaiti. The brothers modern-day descendants in Israel identify their family background as Kuwaiti. The historic research references identify them as Kuwaiti.

The problem is not only about citizenship[edit]

Hello Dilmunite

Thank you for your help. Kingdom of Iraq was declared in 1932 which meant that Iraq as a state could grant citizenship to its citizens. At that time the brothers were 22 years old. When Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries occured, between 1948 to the early 1970s, the brothers moved to Israel in 1951 and got their Iraqi citizensip revoked. On the other hand, Kuwait was recognized by the UN as a state in 1961, which means that its citizens did not hold citizenship prior to that time. And Kuwait, like any other arab state did not recoginze Israel.

The sources that the guy above is using in this article are mainly written by Kuwaiti and re-written by other people relying on these biased sources, and contain misinformation about the citizenship and claiming that they were kuwaiti musicians, although there is no evidence of their work in kuwaiti-related music

I would like to recommend you to read History of Iraq History of the Jews in Iraq, Babylonian captivity Music of Mesopotamia Music of Iraq Maqam al-iraqi to get further understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.178.37 (talk) 15:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello user 78.82.178.37. Dangoor is not a biased Kuwaiti source; it's a British Jewish source from the United Kingdom and it says the brothers' father was Iranian and their family was originally from Iran. Why are you very certain their father didn't have Iranian citizenship? Iran was an independent country since the year 1501, which was thousands of years before Iraq's independence in 1932. They definitely issued citizenship passports in Iran. Al Bayan is an Emirati newspaper. The references you removed, it was unnecessary to remove because they mention the father was Iranian or they say the brothers were Kuwaiti. Iraq became an independent country in 1932 so the brothers gained Iraqi citizenship in 1932. The brothers weren't born as Iraqi citizens. They were born in Kuwait which was under the same Ottoman/British influence as Iraq. So the citizenship/background historical argument is a loophole technicality that doesn't belong in the "Early Life" section you added it to. Because there was no such thing as Kuwait at the time they were born, Iraq became an independent country in 1932, and they were 22 years old when they obtained Iraqi citizenship. Their family wasn't originally from Iraq, they were from Iran. Another important thing is, they weren't foreign nationals in Kuwait because inside Kuwait there was no such thing as "foreign national" or "Kuwaiti citizen" because everybody in Kuwait had no nationality (not only them). So you added an Iraqi source that is biased and presents a non-neutral point of view. Not to mention the fact the brothers' Iraqi citizenship was revoked when they immigrated to Israel and they died as Israeli citizens (not Iraqi or Kuwaiti or Iranian). You're allowed to add Iraqi sources but no one is allowed to add Kuwaiti or Emirati or British Jewish sources? How is that fair? Originally you said that these brothers had nothing to do with Kuwait whatsoever. Which is very incorrect as the references you removed say something else.

The latest reference you removed says the brothers were Kuwaitis:

Look at page 8 https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02476223/document

"The first musicians of the Gulf who recorded 78 rpm disks were the Kuwaitis Abdullatif, Saleh, and Dawud al-Kuwaiti in 1927 in Baghdad.29"

Dilmunite (talk) 17:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article is now neutral[edit]

Hello again Dilmunite

https://www.the-kuwaitis.com/

This source mentions the that "Dudu Tassa turns his powerful voice and innovative musicianship to salute the Al-Kuwaiti Brothers, the ground-breaking mid twentieth century Iraqi band featuring his grandfather and great uncle" No where do they mention the kuwaiti brothers being actually "kuwaitis"

https://www.qdl.qa/en/cradle-arabic-sawt-music-early-musician-generations-kuwait This source mentions that "Both brothers were born in Kuwait, into an Iraqi family from Basra"

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-30447043 This source talks about the Jews of Arabia in particular and mentions the brohers briefly as "Jewish Kuwaiti musicians". It does not go into details about who they actually were.

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02476223/document This source talks about the "sources of Yemeni poetry and its role in the arabian diaspora in poetry". And only mentions that the brothers were among the first musicians of the Gulf who recorded 78 rpm disks in Baghdad. It does not go into detail about who they actually were.

These sources can be kept and used while referring to their work in the "Kuwaiti Sawt" rather than their origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.178.37 (talk) 07:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello 78.82.178.37. The first source mentions they are Kuwaiti. The following lines:

https://www.the-kuwaitis.com/

"Dudu Tassa, one of Israel’s leading rock stars, is the grandson of Kuwaiti musician Daoud Al-Kuwaiti"

This source mentions they are Kuwaiti in the following lines

https://www.qdl.qa/en/cradle-arabic-sawt-music-early-musician-generations-kuwait

"The two Kuwaiti musicians Dawud al-Kuweiti (singer and oud player, 1910-1976) and Salih al-Kuweiti (lyricist, composer, violin player, 1908-1986) supported many singers and wrote and/or composed their songs."

This source mentions they are Kuwaiti in the following lines

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-30447043

"Today, the cultural legacy of Jewish Arabia survives most tangibly in music. This evocative song, Ya Shayile El Gerre - recorded in the 1930s on 78rpm shellac disc - features the Jewish Iraqi singer Sett Salima Pasha, accompanied almost certainly here by the Jewish Kuwaiti musicians Daoud Al-Kuwaiti (oud) and his brother Saleh (violin)."

This source mentions they are Kuwaiti in the following line:

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02476223/document

"The first musicians of the Gulf who recorded 78 rpm disks were the Kuwaitis Abdullatif, Saleh, and Dawud al-Kuwaiti in 1927 in Baghdad."

Wikipedia has a strict policy regarding "citizenship" and "background" in the biography of deceased and living persons and historical persons. Please read the Wikipedia policies carefully: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography. As part of Wikipedia policy and guidelines, we must follow their nationality at the time of their death (Israeli citizenship). You cannot disobey Wikipedia rules. This isn't your choice. This is Wikipedia policy. User:Dilmunite (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stop the vandalism[edit]

Dilmunite Stop the vandalism on every Iraq-related article otherwise you will be blocked.

Hello user 78.82.178.37. You did not respond to any of my recent messages to resolve the dispute and you continue deleting reliable sourced information about their father's Iranian ancestry to push one single view. Kindly stop. --Dilmunite (talk) 6:14, 22 December 2021 (UTC)