Talk:The Castle of Cagliostro/GA1
GA Review[edit]
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Reviewer: Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) 23:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Right. Let's begin.
Lead
- The Lupin III stories have a rather complicated background, which the lead does a rather poor job of explaining. For example, Maurice Leblanc is mentioned, without giving his full name, nor explaining that he wrote the series of books about Arsène Lupin, and Lupin III is meant to be that character's grandson. Remember that the reader shouldn't be presumed to know the Lupin III background, so enough of that needs to appear in the lead to make things clear to them.
- Further, most of the material in the lead does not appear later, meaning that all such material is uncited. You can only skip citations in the lead if the information appears later.
Plot
- Before going into plot, it'd be useful to have a "background" section. Detailing Lupin's appearance in other media, and the history of the character will prime people to understand this film. This would also allow you to detail the complicated descendants of major mythical heroes/rogues that make up Lupin III, such as Goemon Ishikawa XIII.
Production
- "The film originated as a half-hour episode of a television series" - this really isn't enough detail. State which series, and, if possible, differences between it and the movie. Or, if the episode was planned, but made into a movie instead, say that clearly. As it is, this is just not enough detail.
Releases
- This has citation needed tags, and arguably needs a lot more.
Conclusion:
This is well on its way to GA. Where it's good, it' very good. But the problems are pretty fundamental. I'm going to reluctantly ✗ Fail this, but I do think this will pass GA in a month or two. Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've asked this to be reopened because some changes were done, like that lame "30 minute episode" from the NY Times, a glaring error, that should not have been included. Production information was split into influence (by error) when it should have been up higher. A few missing cites were actually fine, but had to be copied down and a few other things. As for background, this goes against MOS-AM and I am glad that this is a considerable issue is now formally recognized. I've been trying for such background information in works, but they have been repeated deleted as unnecessary by some editors. I'll be addressing the remaining issues shortly after a bit of rest - it is not hard at all to do. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that it still doesn't even come close to explaining the background in a way comprehensible to people who don't know Lupin III, and what explanation it does have is uncited. It fails the GA requirement of completeness, and, whilst I'm completely convinced it can be fixed, as it stands, the lead actively confuses the reader unless they know Lupin III already. This is a Miyazaki film, meaning it's likely to attract an audience from outside the Lupin III fandom, as such, explaining the key background clearly isn't really optional. (WP:WIAGA Criterion 3a) Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- So taking one thing at a time, I have made a couple of minor changes to the lead - inserting Maurice's full name, as well as links to his and Lupin I's articles. As you say, the background of lupin III is a bit complicated, perhaps too complicated to be in full in the lead - the background section should probably cover this in more detail - however see chris' comments regarding mos-am, this is somewhat of a bone of contention in some places at the moment :) However as this is a GA review, its a good piece of evidence as to why the mos-am guidelines need to be changed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Lead - all the info is now ref'd, or appears later in the article as far as I can see. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Background - can you be a bit more specific? Currently it gives a brief overview, any more detail on Lupin himself and it risks duplicating the Lupin & Lupin III articles. I dont have a problem with that really, but what specifically do you feel is lacking? The background to the creation of lupin III? more on his links to Lupin I? Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I dislike the A&M guidelines, but yes, I'll treat this under MOSFILM because MOSFILM is the one which is far superior. I still have to finish reading some of McCarthy's section on CoC, but Cavallaro had a scant 2 pages in her book which is mostly fine here. Fixing the lede up and perhaps a character section would be fine, even though MOS-AM disagrees. This "no redundancy" is extreme, it is not "duplication of content" under REDUNDANTFORK - that only applies to the same topic on two pages. A&M has difficulty getting articles to par because of its bizarre MOS and the editors which back an even weirder interpretation. I'll have this probably fixed up by Friday, but I see that all of Lupin is a horrible mess on Wikipedia. I can't even pull from the other pages because of how bad and inaccurate they are! Also I've dropped the licensing matter, while true, they are not an issue, and I'll probably have to do the Streamline vs Manga Entertainment dubs because the Streamline one is really weird, but I've not been able to find the original VHS or the 1993 release, but its got a LOT of problems with translation accuracy, something that is typically glossed over because it is so obscure. Eitherway, I'm dropping MOS-AM's criteria and going to be pushing for proper context on all GAs in this area moving forward - there is no reason to deliberately avoid suitable background information. I completely agree with Adam Cuerden, but as for how much background information... yeah, this Lupin is completely different from the standard portrayal and this is a stand-alone film so the other media do not really apply to it so much. Again... I'll be on later to fix more of it, my time is short till tonight. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It might be worth trying to get access to a copy of Hiyao Miyazaki: Master of Japanese Animation as it has a section devoted entirely to the film. From the preview - all the films covered in that book seem to be done in detail. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, one could argue it might be worth covering the other main characters - covering Goemon Ishikawa XIII in particular - but I think you're right - your fast changes brought it to GA, although it'll need a bit more work for FA. Reverting previous decision and changing to ✓ Pass. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- It might be worth trying to get access to a copy of Hiyao Miyazaki: Master of Japanese Animation as it has a section devoted entirely to the film. From the preview - all the films covered in that book seem to be done in detail. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I dislike the A&M guidelines, but yes, I'll treat this under MOSFILM because MOSFILM is the one which is far superior. I still have to finish reading some of McCarthy's section on CoC, but Cavallaro had a scant 2 pages in her book which is mostly fine here. Fixing the lede up and perhaps a character section would be fine, even though MOS-AM disagrees. This "no redundancy" is extreme, it is not "duplication of content" under REDUNDANTFORK - that only applies to the same topic on two pages. A&M has difficulty getting articles to par because of its bizarre MOS and the editors which back an even weirder interpretation. I'll have this probably fixed up by Friday, but I see that all of Lupin is a horrible mess on Wikipedia. I can't even pull from the other pages because of how bad and inaccurate they are! Also I've dropped the licensing matter, while true, they are not an issue, and I'll probably have to do the Streamline vs Manga Entertainment dubs because the Streamline one is really weird, but I've not been able to find the original VHS or the 1993 release, but its got a LOT of problems with translation accuracy, something that is typically glossed over because it is so obscure. Eitherway, I'm dropping MOS-AM's criteria and going to be pushing for proper context on all GAs in this area moving forward - there is no reason to deliberately avoid suitable background information. I completely agree with Adam Cuerden, but as for how much background information... yeah, this Lupin is completely different from the standard portrayal and this is a stand-alone film so the other media do not really apply to it so much. Again... I'll be on later to fix more of it, my time is short till tonight. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that it still doesn't even come close to explaining the background in a way comprehensible to people who don't know Lupin III, and what explanation it does have is uncited. It fails the GA requirement of completeness, and, whilst I'm completely convinced it can be fixed, as it stands, the lead actively confuses the reader unless they know Lupin III already. This is a Miyazaki film, meaning it's likely to attract an audience from outside the Lupin III fandom, as such, explaining the key background clearly isn't really optional. (WP:WIAGA Criterion 3a) Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've asked this to be reopened because some changes were done, like that lame "30 minute episode" from the NY Times, a glaring error, that should not have been included. Production information was split into influence (by error) when it should have been up higher. A few missing cites were actually fine, but had to be copied down and a few other things. As for background, this goes against MOS-AM and I am glad that this is a considerable issue is now formally recognized. I've been trying for such background information in works, but they have been repeated deleted as unnecessary by some editors. I'll be addressing the remaining issues shortly after a bit of rest - it is not hard at all to do. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Moving forwards towards FA, I'd suggest a section on appearances of Lupin III previous to the film - it needn't be detailed, and probably include a brief mention of Miyazaki's career after this, since being one of the most notable animé director's directorial debut is notable, I think you'll agree. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you and I'll be continuing to improve it some more in accordance with MOSFILM instead of MOSAM. Only in Death, that is the book I am using, and I must say it is very good. I'll be adding more details from it shortly. A good copy edit should follow as I work up the nerve and skills to try for FA. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)