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quotation history: 21:56, 18 August 2008 Owlmonkey (Talk | contribs) m (4,324 bytes) (Reverted 4 edits by 18.104.22.168; interesting edits but i disagree with all four. the ref is a primary source, demon?, excerpt redundant, and EL not to guidelines.. (TW)) (undo)
- Inviting the demon. (Milarepa, Tibetan Buddhism)(The Shadowissue) Judith Simmer-Brown, Parabola Vol.22 No.2 (Summer 1997) pp.12-18
why not to guidelines, Owlmonkey?
Because it does not add anything about Tsultrim Allione specifically, much less anything that could be used as a citation for her. Did you add it as an external link because it related to one of her teachings? Why did you want to include it?- Owlmonkey (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem I had with the kalapatraining.com citation is that it's effectively promotional blurbs for the book. Not critical reviews of the book particularly. You've added a quote from Mark Epstein, but what are we trying to do here on wikipedia - promote her book? what is it we're trying to say exactly about the book really? That Mark Epstein liked it a lot, that it was well received, that it was praised? We could say that it was praised by Mark Epstein but that doesn't seem all that encyclopedic to me unless Mark Epstein's opinion about the book is noteworthy in some special way, you know? - Owlmonkey (talk) 03:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
what is it we're trying to say exactly about the book really?
well, have we read it? this book? Jomo Menmo The famous female gTértön called ‘The Lady Demoness’ I guess that's not the kind of demons to be fed with the help from Allione? am I right? or wrong?
Mark Epstein quotation
I do think there's a problem with this quotation... it's praise with no information for the reader. However, there's a Jack Kornfield quote from the same source that I think might be usefully swopped for it. The text of it is: "In Feeding the Demons Tsultrim Allione... has taken a great and relatively unknown ancient lineage of practice and rendered it into accessible modern form without compromising its essence or losing its power. In this she brings to bear the depth of her forty years of vajrayana training, her skills as an accomplished lama and a visionary, her sophisticated understanding of the western psyche and her fearless consciousness, steeped in the two worlds of classical Tibet and modern life." Jack Kornfield
I think that would give the reader both a sense of what the book involves and some information about what Tsultrim Allione contributes to Buddhism. What do you two (and anyone else with an opinion) think... should we use it instead of the Mark Epstein quote? Dakinijones (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm wary of using promotional blurbs generally, they're often solicited by the book publisher and written with the specific intention to promote the book. But it's a judgment call and if you all want to include one or two since they are informative I'm ok with it. If I'm sensing correctly where Austerlitz is going with this though, perhaps there is another reason to leave the Epstein quote or replace it with something from Simmer-Brown's review. It's the connection between Jung's shadow side way of framing things and Allione's approach in her book. But I don't think we should be synthesizing that connection particularly. Are there any reviews of her book that make that connection more explicit, in a review or commentary about her work? If she really is attempting to draw a connection between Jung's work and Buddhism, that is certainly noteworthy here. I would just rather we made that connection explicitly with a citation that talks about it than use the Epstein quote or link to Simmer-Brown indirectly. - Owlmonkey (talk) 20:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm also wary about using promotional blubs and for that reason I wont be following the suggestion to use both the Kornfield and Epstein blurbs. If Austerlitz particular wants the Epstein, well it's short and I can live with it. I find the Kornfield more informative personally. But either's acceptible to me. Two would be too much promo though, so let's stick with the Epstein. Dakinijones (talk) 08:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Talk with Tsultrim Allione
-  I would like to listen, but I don't know how to do. Can you tell me?
I've decided to have a look at her book: does she refer to Milarepa, for example, or to Carl Jung? Or to Machig Labdrön only? (Sounds quite strange to me the imagination that Machig Labdrön might have done her practice to get rid of overeating or something like that.)
Dakinijones, the quotation of Jack Kornfield doesn't say anything about the content of her teaching -as and how it is described in the book. It gives his opinion/information about her contribution to classical Tibet and modern life. You can use the quotation together with the quotation of Mark Epstein.
Maybe later on -knowing more- we don't need any of those quotations any longer, Owlmonkey.
Some facts about Gandhi
Allione in her introduction to the book refers to Machig Labdrön only. In the first chapter called "Meeting the Demon" she refers to Mahatma Gandhi, telling a story about him, having fed an englishman with tea. She says:"Gandhi used the medium of tea, an English ritual that implies civilty and mutual respect, and literally fed this enemy until he became an ally. His tactic of feeding rather than fighting contributed to one of the most extraordinary nonviolent revolutions in history." Well, as far as I remember history, it has not been like this. The story told by Allione sounds as if Gandhi -by giving tea to that fictive or real englishman- had won the British over to give up "their" salt tax. Sorry, I cannot continue now, this story is getting on my nerves. I just don't know how to continue this story with love and compassion.
Gandhi had to fight, supported by many Indian people, to free India from British monopoly on (indian) salt, the law didn't allow Indians to provide themselves with salt, not even for using it by themselves. Seventy people had started marching to the ocean, about eighty days on foot, and when they arrived the number had grown. Gandhi and other 60.000 persons (that's what I've read) had to go into prison. Gandhi -arriving at he oceanic water- took some grains of salt from the ground, other people followed. There has also been a massacre (that's the term by which I have come to know that event) where indian police commanded by some englishman, I guess, injured many of the protesters. Dharasana Satyagraha, it belongs to the salthistory, too, some information is to be found there. Gandhi said that he and his concept/organization of Satyagraha was never going to use violence, but they had strong determination and other kind of actions in order to reach their goal(s).
Milarepa: actually it is not a song, it is a saying, reading like that: The malignant male and female demons
- Who create myriad troubles and obstructions
Seem real before one has reached enlightenment. But when one realizes their true nature, They become Protectors, And through their help and assistance One attains numerous accomplishments. __Tibet's great yogi Milarepa (1052-1135)
When a negative emotion arises, because we cling to it and conceptualize it as solid, it creates all kinds of problems for us. Once we see it as the play of phenomenon, unfixed and ungrounded, then it becomes a reminder of wakefulness and we see that it was always imbued with the wisdom of the nature of mind. Therefore, we have no need to reject negative emotions as inherently problematic. They are imbued with wisdom, inseparable from the nature of mind, and rejecting them would be rejecting that wisdom and opportunity to wake up. However, until we are enlightened, we should not *indulge* in those negative emotions either. Our cravings and anger are still quite problematic when they grip us, but to the degree that we can work directly with them our approach should not be trying to push the demons away but instead invite them to share some tea... This is I think compatible with the attitude in Chöd practice but I'm not as sure about that, since I haven't done much chöd practice, in what they mean by inviting the demons and surrendering your ego to them as food. - Owlmonkey (talk) 17:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad that you've added some more information about Tsultrim Allione within the article, Dakinijones. I've added some words to your external link. Austerlitz -- 22.214.171.124 (talk) 10:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
And I've added two quotations, one of Jung and one of Allione herself. there is also an interesting saying by Machig Lapdron:
|“||As long as there is an ego, there are demons.
When there is no more ego, There are no more demons either! --Machig Labdrön
I hold it to be important, I've just put it here, maybe one day it is going to shine up in the article.
Where to add this best?
- Feeding Your Demons Tsultrim Allione in Tricycle
- It's an excerpt from her book Feeding Your Demons, perhaps as an (excerpt) link after that bibliography reference? - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I've added Avidyā (Buddhism) to section See also. Can I do that?
- I don't think it's problematic, but it's a little off topic for a biographic article. makes one ask, what does tsultrim allione have to do with ignorance exactly? did you mean to say something about her teachings on ignorance? - Owlmonkey (talk) 15:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know yet what she really says about ignorance. It's sort of blind shot. As far as I have read the book Feeding our demons it is about emotions, nothing about ignorance. Calling that Lady -emanation of Machig Labdrön- Demoness lady is a matter of ignorance, I think, not a matter of emotions; that's what I think now.
- Austerlitz -- 126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- "The Lineage of Tinley Gyamtso Lama, the Bardok Chusang Rinpoche". Retrieved 2008-09-29.
In Tsultrim Allione's article it is said: "Allione was also independently recognised as Machig's emanation in Nepal by Lama Tsering Wangdu Rinpoche, holder of the lineage of Dampa Sangye (who had worked with Machig Labdron to establish the Chod practice in Tibet in the 11th Century)."
Is this contradictory information?
No, not contradictory. A lineage holder is not necessarily an incarnation... but in any case there can be more than one incarnation at a time. A realized being capable of consciously incarnating can have any number of emanation bodies. --Dakinijones (talk) 14:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Machig Labdron article says: "In the west, Lama Tsultrim Allione (1947- ) was recently recognized as an emanation of Machig Labdrön at Zangri Khangmar, Tibet, the place where Machig Labdrön lived from ages 37 to 99, and where she passed away, by the resident Lama, Karma Nyitön Kunkhyab Chökyi Dorje THE SNOW LION NEWSLETTER."
The Lama Karma Nyitön Kunkhyab Chökyi Dorje is another one amidth of her recognition. According to my judgement this seems to be the most important story.
Shouldn't this be mentioned (http://www.spiritrock.org/display.asp?pageid=92&catid=4&scatid=9)?
-  is there anybody against making this a weblink of the article?
"The highlight of the trip came for most of us when we made our visit to Zangri Khangmar ("Red House at the Copper Colored Mountain"), Machig's main residence and cave, where she lived and taught during most of her long life (she lived to be 99). After driving for many days across Tibet's desolate and rocky landscape, visiting caves and monasteries connected with our yogini or the practice she invented, we finally arrived at Machig's "seat," a monastery built around her meditation cave."