Talk:Ukrainian Insurgent Army/Archive 2
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Reason to put tag
I’ve provided NPOV source which cited here selectively used to gain a clear target:
- to prove summoned by post WWII OUN (B) myth about fierce and large scale fighting between UPA and German Wehrmacht together with the Nazi German SS (even Roman Shukhevych in 1944 does not state this) and thus hide collaboration of UPA and Nazi in 1944
- to the lower the scale of UPA participation the Genocide of Polish community (it was only (and sole) large scale military action by UPA in 1943-44) and “justify” barbaric children slaughtering for “action like closing Ukrainian language schools etc.” ,
- to hide what UPA formed on base of Nazi controlled Ukrainian Auxiliary Police shutzmanshaft – main draught force of Holocaust in Ukraine and Belarus (up to 1/4 UPA number and more than half on initial stage) and from 1944 –from SS Galizien and rest Nazi “national” units,
- to hide SB (part of UPA) actions against Poles, Ukrainians and other “non-wanted elements”.
Statement from books by OUN (B) members/lovers published by some murky presses - like - Ukrainian guerrilla army (must by Volhynian and Galician Ukrainian nationalistic military formation) – because it never represent nor fight for Ukraine in a whole. Same quality “among the Ukrainian people” – not stated what “Ukrainian people” limited to few (4-5 out of 24 Current) western Ukrainian regions population (pre 1939 – Poland territories) etc etc. Until clean up and propaganda facts removal -it's not a WP article - it's more an OUN(B) leaflet Jo0doe (talk) 19:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's difficult to sort through your English, but I'll try to address your points:
- 1. All statements about UPA warfare vs. Germans are referenced by legitimate sources. We've been over this before with you: just because you don't like a source doesn't mean that it is illegitimate.
- 2. Your second point is simply false. Genocide vs. Poles was not as you claim "the only (and sole) large scale military action by UPA in 1943-1944. An entire section is devoted to UPA's massacres of the Polish community. As for a brief description of the Polish persecution of western Ukrainians prior to the war - it is a fact and there is nothing wrong with providing context. This is not justification for the massacres.
- 3. The fact that deserters from police made up a large part of UPA initially should indeed be included in the article. The lack of this information doesn't take away from the article's neutrality.
- 4. Again, massacres of Poles is covered in the article.
Sources come largely from books published by the University of Toronto by well respected historians as well as the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, not "some murky presses." You have a point that UPA's popularity was limited largely to western Ukraine and that will be changed in the article.
Thank you for fixing few word but many issues remains.
factual accuracy disputed
Header
- Ukrainian guerrilla army – missed Western (I saw you already fixed one instance). Army – too much for such military formation - probably you forgot what UPA is always used together.
Issue not resolved - please see National Army of Democratic Kampuchea or IRA as example Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- During its existence, the UPA fought a large variety of military forces… – you posed in one row self-called “army” (in fact guerrillas movement) and real armies and military institution. Inconsistent wording.
- I agree with you - it English WP and not OUN (B) online magazine "Povstanets"Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- including the German Wehrmacht, the Nazi German SS, Wehrmacht – was on frontline while UPA has not any frontline since it conduct partisan’s tactic. Allegedly claim about - the Nazi German SS please give a ref, I’ll give you a ref when UPA together with SS (Galizien) conduct “actions” against Polish population (not AK – simply Poles). Also here pushed German to front of story – while widely known what UPA actions against German’s was only a “self-defense” and main enemies was “bolshevizm” and “poles separatizm” – since aim was “Ukraine on Ukrainian soil”.
- It’s not referenced – only allegedly stated “he had under his command 10 battalions of motorized SS troops” but does not mentioned what UPA clashes with. Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“Had” and “battled” – does it same words. Also BB – could you provide any other references to prove Tys- Krokhmalyuk myths?Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- the Polish Armia Krajowa – should be added “and polish population” regardless the sex and age – since those of them who lived on “Ukrainian soil” proclaimed as “enemies of Ukrainian statehood”
- here I agree with you - UPA slaughtering them – please look at [1]
p 248. what the reasons – no schools no churches – simply wiped earth Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Someone missed soviet partisans.
- And also , on my opinion, would be better to give all this list accordingly to significance of actions and chronology or– e.g. 1) Polish military and paramilitary formation 2) soviet partisans, NKVD units (which send to act against Nazi in 1943-44), SMERSH, small Soviet Red Army auxiliary units, Nazi and Allies auxiliary police and SD formatin, Nazi administration, and retreated units of Wehrmacht.
- Chronological order makes sense. The article on World War II doesn't start with the Eastern front and end with the fight against France, simply because the Soviet fighting was most intense. It follows the order of events from the beginning to the end. The UPA article shouldn't be made chronologically incoherent to satisfy your POV.Faustian (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- So - they started from Polish population and soviet partizan - see Polska-Ukraina: trudnepytania. O.9.MaterialyIX X mijdzynarodowego seminarium historycznego “Stosunkipolsko-ukraiaeskie w latach IIwojny swiatowej”.—Warszawa,6—10 listopada 2001.—Warszawa,2002.—455s and also see p.164 [2] about UPA leader objectives.
Body
- Section “History of creation” missed –were you can put “The date of October 14, 1942 …” since it does not match the “UPA's struggle against Germany”.
Issue not resolved
- Order of sections should be accordingly to proposed above – 1)Poles 2)Soviet and 3)German.
You once again push your POV but facts agains - see above why
- UPA and Western Ukraine's Jews - I really guess what is it for here – since by the time of UPA was more or less established Jews was almost exterminated – it must be mentioned. But also must be mentioned a fact what UPA at large extend composed from responsible for Holocaust action military formation and persons – i.e. members of the Auxiliary Police, SD formations , SS etc.
- UPA being Jew killers - because they composed from " Jew slaughters" and commanded by commanded by Jew&Poles slaughters.
- Another of your unreferenced claims, and not even about UPA itself. Referenced facts show Jews within UPA and UPA saving Jewish families - Friedman, P. "Ukrainian-Jewish Relations During the Nazi Occupation, YIVO Annual of Jewish Social Science v. 12, pp. 259–96, 1958–59. Those are facts. So far, you only have unproven assertions that some UPA members may have killed Jews prior to joining UPA.Faustian (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- “ they had no official policy regarding the Jews what-so-ever” – it’s clear disinformation since they have, and almost same as Nazi –extermination as is (once again do not omit facts [4] p.63 )
- UPA is not OUN. By the time UPA was created OUN was at war with Nazis their stance towards Jews changed accordingly. Emphasizing such quotes is like placing Soviet pro-German quotes around the time of Molotov-Ribentrop in order to dilute the anti-German Soviet struggle.Faustian (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Your logical approach it definitely interesting. See article “It was the military branch of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists.” "Self-defence of people" (самооборона народу) till begining it's is not war even only till March 1944. Mentioned Instruction still valid. Otherwice - why mentioned "had declared that the "Jews of the USSR [are] ..."? Probably -it's whitewashing and hiding of real story"Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“UPA's struggle against Germany
- The UPA was formed in late 1942 - ??? (see header date)
: Issue not resolved Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- “Polish question” missed – see Ruban and Shukhevych positions
: Issue not resolved Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- UPA soldiers were estimated by the German” - once again, if mentioned “Ukrainian partisans” or as for that case a “forest bandits” – it does not referred exclusively to UPA – I assume you would be agreed with the fact what soviet partisans inflicts significantly more casualties to Nazi instead of UPA and other OUN formation, despite that they was significant less in number. Moreover the time when Leyser was in Generalbezirk Shitomir – there no UPA (OUN(B) since it was 1942.
- Issue not resolved - please see what Leyser mentioned in his late 1942 reports
- while he was in Generalbezirk Shitomir - citation from Bundesarchive «В зоне ответственности «Житомир» деятельность банд также весьма сильна…» Bundesarchive R 58/222, Bl. 45-46 “ нападений или в борьбе с бандитами» Bundesarchive R6/687 Bl.9 – there no UPA – only bandits - so your "military journal" prove what military and history - it is not the same thing Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- attempted to destroy UPA-North in Volyn – really exclusively for UPA- Volyn which now (June 1943) intensively handle the “Polish question”?
- He was chosen specifically by Himmler to destroy UPA in this operation. – “As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication”. Not pass – sorry – also other facts against this pushed-up “history” – since General von dem Bach-Zalewski is a general commander of operations (as it was also in 1942 and winter 1943).
- Issue not resolved Please provide WP:V source - othervice look at General von dem Bach-Zalewski article (if you have not access to books on which it based) -
Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- By August, this operation proved to be a military failure – ref pls.WP:V
- Issue not resolved
- Krokhmaluk, Y. (1973). UPA Warfare in Ukraine. New York: Vantage Press – “some murky presses” does not match a dozens of WP corner-stone Rules.
- Issue not resolved You unable to prove the credibility of this source - as still an issue - Vantage Press - it's not academic publishing, Krokhmaluk, Y - not a historian. Other sources (German, OUN, Soviet) does not prove his myths Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- So rather than reread the discussion you continue making your claims. Okay, I will do your work for you. From the discussion: "Magocsi, in Ukraine: a History, spends 40 pages (685–725) describing and briefly evaluating scores of sources for further reading. The evaluations are not in-depth, but he does at least mention the weak points of some...He starts the paragraph about WWII Ukrainian military organizations with Tys-Krokhmaliuk (1972)". And "With respect to Krokhmaluk, he is used as a source by both Subtelny and Magosci, each of whom recommends this book as a source for further reading. Any information used from Krokhaliuk was merely further elaboration of information referenced from either Magosci or Subtleny. Again, as per wikipedia policy, we let the scholars decide the legitimacy of sources, not judge them ourselves" Since Krkhm,aliuk is good for respected scholars such as Subtelny and Magosci, he's good enough for wikipedia, particularly when the details taken from Krokhmaliuk are limited to elaboration of what is already written by Magosci and Subtelny.Faustian (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- General Bach-Zaleski was relieved of his command and replaced by General Prutzmann. – Please explain a link between UPA and that fact.
- Issue not resolved - it`s your OR - ref pls.WP:V
- The Carpathian mountains saw some of the heaviest fighting between UPA and German forces in late 1943 and early 1944 – WP:V ref pls.
- defeated 12 German battalions supported by the German air force, - WP:V ref pls.
- Issue not resolved - see Krokhmaluk, Y. case.
The neutrality disputed
You’ve mentioned here a Toronto’s historian Subtelny – his works criticized by many Ukrainian mainstream historians for facts inaccuracies and nationalistic approach – i.e. NPOV does not preserve.
- Any reference for your claims of his works being "criticized by many mainstream Ukrainian historians?" And if so, who is right, your alleged "mainstream Ukrainian historians" or Subtelny. I guess whoever, according to you, whoever matches your POV. Subtelny's record speaks for itself: [5].Faustian (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Issue not resolved - also what exact mentioned in "^ Subtelny, p. 474 " - western Ukrainian people or as it was before your editing ? Use Google - with "мифы Субтельный" or look at Kulchystkii opinion [6] "Субтельный не учебник писал, и многого он не знал." Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- According to the Russian wikipedia page, Stanislav Kulchytsky is a Soviet historian whose specialty was not western Ukraine but the history of industrialization in Soviet Ukraine. A member of the Communist Party for 30 years, and until 1991 was a member of the Ideological Commission of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine. This lifelong communist after 1991 began to study OUN-UPA. Should I follow your example and use as a source, important members of the OUN?
- You already did this - Tys- Krokhmalyuk – isn’t one of Poles slaughters?Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Clear sample –“only one third of whom were ethnic Ukrainians” – data on exact number of Kovpak division is widelly available – but “nationality” not and ever never exist.
I can’t see your replay on tern Ukrainian people case. I spoke about facts accuracy and NPOV rather than correct / wrong issue. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- "highly regarded historian" - his "highly" limited to Toronto and some marginal in Ukraine - many of his "facts" was dismissed by historians. Also please see about WP:NPOV for such kind statements Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Orest Subtelny obtained his Ph.D. in history from Harvard and his works are published by the University of Toronto. He has written the entry on Ukraine in Encarta Encyclopedia and on Cossacks in the World Book Encyclopedia, and has given lectures at Columbia University. You only demonstrate your own bias when you dismiss him as as highly regarded in "Toronto and some marginal in Ukraine". Actually he is probably of higher stature than Kulchytsky.
- Thank you for your “witch hunting” effort - please debunker yourself – 50-s already passed. West it’s a really Free World if even idiot can be a president of country with nuclear missiles, so that is the case. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your “witch hunting” effort - please debunker yourself – 50-s already passed. West it’s a really Free World if even idiot can be a president of country with nuclear missiles, so that is the case. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- whitewashing of history and OUN(B) propaganda pushing – i.e. “because many of them were ethnic Ukrainians”
, school teachers and postal workers attempting to establish Soviet control over Ukraine after the front line had passed (which Ukraine and how defenseless “school teachers and postal workers” establishing “Soviet control over Ukraine” (Which Ukraine, Also).
- Issue not resolved - "add western" it's OR without it - falsification and OUN propaganda Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I can’t see your replay on term Ukrainian people case. I spoke about facts accuracy and NPOV rather than correct / wrong issue. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“estimates of Ukrainians deported from 1944 to 1952 range from 182,543[10] to 500,000” – you twist exact data with estimation – to condom last.
- Issue not resolved 182,543 - this figure IS NOT estimation - it's EXACT figure on deported from all Ukraine - if you need figures for Western Ukraine with UPA cases -
it's triple-time less compared to "highly regarded historian estimation" - 50457 families (143141 persons) [7] Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
There no “other” figures for that. But mixing the estimation and exact archival data (statistics) speaks badly about you credibility. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“The UPA encouraged the removal” – means extermination
the killings of Polish civilians – missed “mass and brutal without distinguishing sex and age”.
- You try to whitewash, hide and downsample the facts. Since it was not "killing" but “mass and brutal without distinguishing sex and age"
The Polish side also engaged in acts of brutality and vengeance – missed “pay-back”
Missed from “February such actions conducted in cooperation with SS – Galizien regiment”
“The UPA's activities are seen as a response” – OUN propaganda claims, facts are - poles were guilty because they were poles on “Ukrainian soil”.
“where minorities would be tolerated provided their acceptance of the overall Ukrainian domination” – post war OUN(B) propaganda claims
“One can conclude that the relationship between UPA and Western Ukraine's Jews was complex and not one-sided.” UPA SB has a different opinion for this matters.
- UPA saved Jews - Your unreferenced claim. Fact what they used as medical personnel (counted by fingers on one hand) does not describe the situation in general Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“Soviet occupation of Ukraine” - OUN propaganda claim. Does not recognized by most of mainstream historians.
UPA was officially mentioned only in negative terms – unreferenced claims – never heard/read about UPA before 1989.
- Issue not resolved someone's OR or unreferensed claims . UPA - never - only "OUNovtsy" and "Ukrainian Nationalists" and rarely "Benderovtsy"Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
“This, in turn, led to opposition from the Ukrainian veterans of the Soviet Army, and disapproval from the Russian government too” – you still forgot to mention majority of Ukrainian people (means not only Western).
- Actually the article provides data from a survey about states that only 33% of Ukrainians disapprove of reconciliation between UPA veterans and Red Army veterans - the same percentage that approve of doing so. Another 15% didn't care, and 19% weren't sure. So you twist such results to state that a majority of Ukrainian people oppose UPA.
- It’s pity what you don’t know the current population distribution of Ukraine – please visit www.ukrstat.gov.ua So – if you multiply western *33 and Eastern * 33 – you will be get really interesting figures. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Untill this issues will be resolved tags should be thereJo0doe (talk) 16:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Factual, proved by mainstream historians works - instead "Toronto's" editors" and "Krokhmalyuk Apocrypha" Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for showing us that according to you the former member of the commission of Ideology of the Ukrainian COmmunist Party is a "mainstream historian" while a Harvard Ph.D. in history who has written entries for Encarta and Worldbook Encyclopedias and whose books are published by the University of Toronto Press is a "Toronto editor". Do you have any credibility left?Faustian (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- But you provide Tys- Krokhmalyuk and not Subtelny nor Magosci refs. Why you omit this “high respected scholars?”
West it’s a really Free World if even idiot can be a president of country with nuclear missiles, so that is the case. Jo0doe (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Krokhmalyuk - I've not any factual based reply still not exist. Jo0doe (talk) 15:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it disputed by anyone that the UPA actions against Poles in Volhynia were ethnic cleansing ? The current wording "some historians use the term genocide or ethnic cleansing" seems rather artificially apologetic. I think everyone agrees that the purpose of UPA was to drive Poles out of Volhynia ? --Lysytalk 19:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Response to Polish government ?
I'd like to remove this section:
- The UPA's activities are seen as a response to the policies and actions of the inter-war Polish government, which severely limited the number of Ukrainian institutions, and which actively encouraged the settlement of Ukrainian ethnic regions with Poles through colonization efforts. The anti-Ukrainian measures of the Polish government included cultural suppression, such as closing Ukrainian language schools and shutting down Ukrainian churches, quotas on entrance to Polish Educational institutions and internment of Ukrainian cultural and political figures.
it's clearly apologetic and not needed discussion. This is better discussed in the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia article, not here. Also, it was not as simple as that. During the Volhynia massacre, the territory was under German occupation and administration, not Polish, so what kind of "response" to Polish government could that be. Also, can anyone consider murdering civilians a response to "closing Ukrainian language schools and shutting down Ukrainian churches" ? I suggest to remove this discussion from that article and keep it in the "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia", where it belongs. --Lysytalk 19:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Your opinion. The The Holocaust article contains a section on origins. It is logical to briefly describe the background to the massacres.Faustian (talk) 14:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's not" background" - its justifing , even it's not mentioned in any war-time OUN(B) documents. Also see reasons to add one more tag [OR] above Jo0doe (talk) 15:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Again, your opinion that background equals justification. The opinion of a quite nonneutral person.Faustian (talk) 16:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Faustian, come again, how can "closing Ukrainian language schools and shutting down Ukrainian churches" be used to explain murdering civilians ? The purpose of UPA's action was to exterminate the Poles from Volhynia, not some "response to the policies of Polish government". Even UPA stated that in their orders. Killing people could be response to killing not to "quotas on entrance to Polish Educational institutions". How would you call someone, who does not know better but to respond in such a way ? --Lysytalk 17:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- That paragraph may indeed be trimmed somewhat. However the massacres were a response, and caused by resentment towards, the various repressions of the 1930's and settlement of those lands by Polish colonists. This doesn't justify the massacres, and IMO readers will not think that closing schools and settling areas are justification for massacring civilians. But supplying some sort of context is appropriate.Faustian (talk) 17:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Faustian. Of course the background goes deeper than that, and has its roots in both Polish and Ukrainian nationalisms of WW1 era, but there's no room to discuss this in this article. It's very unfortunate indeed that Poland was rules by nationalists for much of the interwar period. It's also unfortunate that some Ukrainians thought that killing civilians was a good way towards Ukraine's independence. And of course the Polish Home Army was not all saints either. Anyway, the purpose of this particular article is not to picture UPA as all positive or all negative army. --Lysytalk 18:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- You can't get a direct replay from Faustian - as whitewash is a main object current version and push UPA "as anti-Nazi fighters" . He even not use this version.[10] Jo0doe (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- My body of work on wikipedia speaks for my objectivity, just as yours demonstrates your POV-pushing.Faustian (talk) 17:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Inaccuracies
Guys, please, you're both getting personal here ... --Lysytalk 18:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm just describing facts about this guy's approach. It's personal, but important to have these facts shown so that we know whom we are dealing with when he makes edits, claims, etc. Some examples from this discussion section:
- 1. He wrote that UPA commander stated – "go across the Syan or prepare to die" (his quotes) when the reality was: "you have 48 hours to leave beyond the Sian or the Zbruch, otherwise - death" Similar meaning, but not quite.
- Thank you, for exact citation. But what’s wrong in my? Also you probably forgot what in order “to leave beyond the Sian or the Zbruch” all Poles must obtain relevant Nazi IDs – can they do this ? Silly question! It’s look like adopt a Gleiwitz incident for justifying the September Campaign," - OUN (B) demagogy as is.Jo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- 2. He claimed: Soviet partisan also reported in 1943 what "OUN members slaughter Poles with axes and knifes". I couldn't find that in his source, but I found "Civilians with scythes and axes took part in mass destructive acts", referring to Ukrainian villagers, suggesting that the brutal killings described were often not the work of UPA themselves but of Ukrainian villagers turning on their neighbors. Clearly different from what Jo0doe claimed.
- See [11] p 250 for details. Oops – “axes missed” – does I limit my facts to only online factual data base? “Clearly different” - ? Really ?- Anyway – does such changed a history. OUN (B) demagogy as is.
- So you admit that you embellish stories by adding details to them. And even here you write a half-truth (which, sorry, is a lie). The full story from that page describes the very tragic situation of UPA soldiers killing Polish villagers. They told those they were about to murder, "we are doing this to do for our villages and our families, whom you burned down." When the Poles begged for their lives and proclaimed their innocence of those crimes, their murderers responded, "Or children our elderly, were they guilty, that you threw them alive into fire?"Faustian (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- 3. Numerous references to the scholars Orest Subtelny and Paul MAgosci as "Toronto editors".
- Does they do not edit their works before publishing in Toronto. Also you can’t provide WP:V ref for Ta MagosciJo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- 4. When making an edit to the article, he took one quote from chapter 14 [12], from page 189, in which Koch stated in November 13th that there was little anti-German activity from UPA. This one quote probably served Jo0does's POV-pushing by painting the picture that UPA wasn't really fighting the Germans. But from the same source, page 187, it was mentioned that the Germans were heavily attacking UPA with planes and tanks. On 188, it stated that in fall 1943 UPA had 47 battles with the Hitlerites and 125 incidents with self-defence bush groups. During these conflcits in Fall 1943, UPA lost 414 men while the Germans lost 1500 soldiers. Page 188 also stated that the Germans failed to destroy UPA and that indeed its numbers continued to grow. However, they did succeed in bringing down UPA's activity level vs. the Germans. Last paragraph of page 188 stated that both Germans and UPA saw no need to continue the fight against each other, and UPA's actions against the Germans largely ceased. That's the full story. But he just pulled that one quote out of context, that in November 1943 the Ukrainians were quiet. A good example of his dishonest use of sources.
- You mean he (Koch) not do this? I read this document (Koch report) in full – there “no tanks and airplanes” for UPA – it’s Shankovskyy wild imagination – you note what it (Shankovskyy origin) mentioned there – and their quality described at p 186 (at bottom of the page). Also regarding all battles – it’s UPA origin – no German nor Soviet nor AK mentioned such. And oops – most credible man missed summary of OUN actions against German on p 199 at same chapter. “A good example of his dishonest use of sources.“ – is’nt?Jo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Don't try to change the subject onto Koch's report. We are discussing your selective quotation from the article whose link you provided, not your personal archival research. Moreover, Shankovsky is not mentioned on the bottom of page 186. On page 187, however, he is described in positive terms as a "well-known historian."Faustian (talk) 22:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- 5. He wrote: "this, in turn, led to opposition from the Ukrainian veterans of the Soviet Army, and disapproval from the Russian government too – you still forgot to mention majority of Ukrainian people (means not only Western)". When I challenged him to provide a reference, he gave a link to a Russian-language BBC article that provided data from a survey about stated that only 33% of Ukrainians disapprove of reconciliation between UPA veterans and Red Army veterans - the same percentage that approve of doing so. Another 15% didn't care, and 19% weren't sure. Clearly, the reality was that a minority was opposed to reconciliation, an equal minority supported, and a larger group either didn't care or weren't sure. But he twisted such results to state that a majority of Ukrainian people oppose UPA.
- It’s pity what you don’t know the current population distribution of Ukraine – please visit www.ukrstat.gov.ua So – if you multiply western *33 and Eastern * 33 – you will be get really interesting figures.Jo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
No doubt more examples will be added as Jo0doe continues to demonstrate his "honesty". I guess it is personal, but necessary so that we know to be vigilant when this guy makes claims and edits.Faustian (talk) 20:59, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pity, but I’ll not mirror your “efforts” with “western Ukrainian people” and rest your “credible edits" (means manipulations).Jo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Operation "BB"
The "UPA's struggle against Germany" section states that Bach-Zalewski had 10,000 German and Polish police under his command. No Ukrainian police ? And what and how many Polish police ? --Lysytalk 20:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I will look into it. I suspect that Polish police were used by the Germans when combatting Ukrainians and Ukrainian police were used against Poles (otherwise, desertions, etc.)Faustian (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I know, there was only one battalion of Polish police (Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202) in Ukraine, which counted about 360 people. So stating "10,000 German and Polish police" seems a bit misguiding. Of course there might have been Poles in other German units, too. I know that many Ukrainian and Polish policemen deserted from German service and joined the partisans (UPA or AK). --Lysytalk 21:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but such wording makes me suspicious about the objectivity of the source, if you know what I mean. --Lysytalk 08:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
BB - myth by OUNJo0doe (talk) 09:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Jo0doe, what do you mean exactly ? --Lysytalk 10:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oops - I mean this aricle version. I already got whole Y.Krokhmalyuk book - so while i finish it - I mention exactly what- anyway see Erich_von_dem_Bach for real story. Jo0doe (talk) 10:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
UPA and SS collaboration
Should I add one more topic to article?
In a top secret memorandum, General-Major Brigadefuhrer Brenner wrote in mid-1944 to SS- Obergruppenfuhrer General Hans Prutzmann — the highest ranking German SS officer in Ukraine and the architect of the so-called “Prutzmann Bureau,” Germany’s stay-behind or “werewolf” networks — that “The UPA has halted all attacks on units of the German army. The UPA systematically sends agents (razvedchiki), mainly young women, into enemy-occupied territory, and the results of the intelligence are communicated to Department 1c of the [German] Army Group” on the southern Front [14]
Also As of June 1945, 10,139 Ukrainian families (26,093 persons) of suspected anti-Soviet rebels had already been deported to Siberia. By the end of 1947, a total of 26,644 “rebel families” — 76,192 persons — had been deported from the seven oblasti of West Ukraine to the Soviet Far East: 18,866 men; 35,152 women; and 22,174 children.
“Rebel death squads”- there a lot of interesting facts acted under “Glory to Ukraine! Glory to her heroes!” slogans. (Poles also
I personally interrogated her. [Initially] she categorically denied any connection with the Gestapo. So then we stripped her naked and with willow-switches we had earlier prepared, each man in my unit beat her until all we had left was one shredded switch. Then she said she would confess. After this [beating], she ‘confirmed’ that she had had a connection with the Gestapo. Then, under my orders, she was dragged 500 meters from the site of the interrogation and shot by [rebel soldier] GLUKHYI.”
Pan`kiv took evident pride in his work, confessing to similarly bloody assassinations of at least sixty ethnic Poles — suspected German or Soviet “collaborators” — during the war.
Soviet investigative files are filled with references to follow-up investigations of
brutal reprisals carried out by rebel SB units against women suspected of pro-
Soviet sympathies. “In village Diad?kovichi [underground rebel units] murdered
Sof`ia PAVLIUK, who heartily welcomed soldiers of the advancing Red Army.”
“On the night of 19 September [1944] in the village Bol`shaia-Osneshcha,
Kolkovskyi raion the STRESHA band murdered four women, in whose apartments
lived Red Army soldiers.” “On the night of 23 September [1944] in village
Mikhlin, Senkovichi raion, a rebel unit of four persons killed four women and
injured one. [The women] had gotten together to write letters to their husbands and
sons [serving] in the Red Army.”
Also interesting info about “school teachers and postal workers attempting to establish Soviet control” -
available evidence suggests that as many as four of five of victims of rebel violence against suspected “collaborators” were ethnic Ukrainian women, especially young women suspected of sexually fraternizing with men of the Soviet occupation.
In each case, the victim had been beaten to death on the back of the skull with an ax, hammer, or pipe. As a reflection of the macabre ritual interrogation that usually preceded rebel executions of suspected collaborators, one corpse still had more than a meter of noose around her neck.
Mentally sick "freedom fighters" -anyway Jo0doe (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Both Poles and Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis in Eastern Galicia and Western Ukraine. This was partly attributed to the past experience of the Soviet occupation. You are also right about the extreme brutality of the Polish-Ukrainian fights. Usually innocent civilians suffered. Mostly Poles for two reasons: they were a minority on this territory and UPA was stronger than AK. --Lysytalk 21:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think you agree what Poles does not mean AK (except agents) but UPA – means UPA. Also would usefully to state what UPA as also OUN (B) blamed for massacre Nazis and Soviets - immediately after events (even before AK reports about such) – interesting, isn’t? I also got a number of
poles shuma unit - if you like Jo0doe (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Referring to the post about brutality towards women:
- What an excellent article [15]! I highly recommend it, and perhaps the role of women in UPA deserves a seperate heading in this wikipedia article. Also, an excellent example of your selective quoting of sources. The article describes how UPA increasiongly relied on women soldiers, even indicating how the NKVD reported entire units of armed women fighting in the forests (incidentally, this implies that while combatting UPA the Soviets killed many women). In order to sow suspicion against women, the article states that the Soviets recruited some of them to spy on and betray UPA leading to the death of capture of hundreds of UPA members. They "recruited them by, according tot he article, "Guilty or innocent, local women faced interrogations that were at the very
least terrifying, but more often brutally violent, and in which the Soviets imparted a sense of “knowing” the arrested woman had actively worked with the underground. If the woman detainee was actually innocent, from the Soviet point of view, no harm was done: a few days later, she would be released, battered but free. And her experience would have the added advantage of intimidating any future collaboration with rebels. But if the woman was guilty, the systematic cycle of sleep- and food-deprivation, isolation (including incarceration in a dark room with executed corpses), brutalization, and intimidation usually broke the prisoner."
"Against a background of wholesale violence and abuse, interrogation and agent recruitment took on numerous subtleties and variations. Soviet police files offer us valuable insights into the complex process of siksotka recruitment, and the factors that motivated ethnic Ukrainian women to betray their former cohort in the nationalist underground. An especially useful case study is the story of the arrest, interrogation, and recruitment of Liudmilla Foia, an ethnic Ukrainian woman who survived repeated rape, beatings, and interrogations for over two months, but was only “turned” when her parents were implicated. Foia’s case is especially revealing because of the virtually unprecedented quality of her files: in the archives appear not only her Soviet police records, but also the records of her subsequent interrogation by the Ukrainian rebel underground, captured two weeks later in a Soviet raid."
About one such Soviet agent:
"Having successfully recruited her own brother for the NKVD, agent Galka’s second assignment powerfully reveals the brutally tragic lives of Soviet siksoty. On 2 November 1944 Galka was ordered to murder her close friend Rusalka, which she did early morning on 11 November in Tseptsevychy forest with a shot from a Soviet-provided pistol. A Soviet spetsgruppa handled disposal of the body. The Soviets intended the murder to open the way for one of their own agents, ideally Galka herself, to step into the position of chief of rebel communications in that sector. That Galka herself should have been forced to carry out the murder was a normal part of Soviet agent recruitment: transforming ardent rebels into faithful agents by forcing them to perpetrate unforgivable acts against their own. With this baptism in blood, agent Galka was both psychologically and physically ready for more complicated operations. This Soviet figurant — Russian for “stage performer” but also an NKVD euphemism for an agent performing in a field operation — was ready to dance.
Unfortunately for the Soviets, and for Galka herself, their plans to infiltrate her into the Kora band with the aim of its eventual liquidation (razlozhenie) were foiled. It seems that even as one Soviet NKVD team was positioning Galka- Linevych to infiltrate the Kora band, another NKVD team was trying to accomplish the same task with their own agent Galka, formerly “Kapustianskaia,” one Anastasia Spitsyna, recruited in late 1944 and sent against the Kora band in December. Less well-prepared for the tasks ahead, Galka-Spitsyna apparently gave herself away almost immediately, and was subsequently detained and interrogated by the rebel SB. The problem was that Soviets had received intelligence from one of their informants that their agent Galka had been unmasked. In an effort to rescue the operation, Galka-Linevych was called back. As a result of her abrupt removal from the field, Galka-Linevych’s cover was blown; she was, in NKVD parlance, rasshifrovana. Rebel reprisals were brutal and immediate. Her brother Aleksei was detained by the rebel SB, interrogated, tortured, and sadistically murdered. Her mother and aunt, who lived in village Tseptsevychy, were assassinated, their corpses desecrated in the normal way vengeance was meted out to family members of traitors. All of the family’s possessions were either destroyed or carried away by a rebel band. Following standard SB practice, the Linevych family name was forever annihilated in that village.
Soviet case files for agent Galka-Linevych end there: with the demoralized and terrified Galka hidden away in a Soviet safe house in Rivne, awaiting her next instructions. A mere eighteen and a half years old, she was already directly responsible for the murder of her best friend, and indirectly responsible for the deaths of her beloved brother, mother, and aunt. But her Soviet controller still had further plans for her, and it was clear from her case files that “she would be used [again]” — literally “used,” budet ispol´zovana — “for operations against the OUN underground.”56
Ostensibly, agent Galka-Spitsyna fared better. The SB commander who interrogated Galka-Spitsyna persuaded her to write a harshly anti-Soviet note to the Vladimiretskyi raion NKVD chief. Attached to the note was a communication from the SB commander to the local NKVD chief indicating that Galka-Spitsyna’s life would be spared. He taunted: “You should not think that Ukrainian insurrectionaries cut off the heads of Russians and others because of their nationality. No. We Ukrainians love the peoples of other nations, but despise your communes and collective farms.”57 Though the NKVD made an active effort to apprehend Galka-Spitsyna, those operations were unsuccessful. The search continued for some months, but the Soviets lost all trace of her."
- All this was done specifically in order to provoke the reprisals and atrocities against innocent women and others, such as the ones you described. But all you wrote about is the actions committed in the course of the reprisals, with no background or context. Another example of your dishonest approach to the sources. Thanks. Faustian (talk) 21:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, Andrew Wilson's Virtual Politics, Oxoford University Press, claims that the SB was headed by a Soviet mole.Faustian (talk) 21:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, Jo0Doe disputed that NKVD dressed as UPA. Well the same source that he provided stated that according ot Soviet archives "On the night of 23 July 1948 the same spetsgruppa [masquerading as rebel bandits] from Podvysots´ke village abducted in the forest a young woman
REPNYTSKA Nina Iakovlevna, born in 1931.
- In the forest REPNYTSKA was subjected to tortures.
- While interrogating REPNYTSKA, members of the spetsgruppa beat her severely, hung her upside down by her legs, forced a stick into her genitalia, and then one by one raped her.
In a helpless condition, REPNYTSKA was abandoned in the forest, where her husband found her and took her to the hospital, where REPNYTSKA spent an extended period recovering."
- The logic?
- Interesting, but despite “myriad examples” summoned by wild imagination of grant-consumer “Sovietologist” I still matching only one – which widely distributed for propaganda propose.
- Well, this funny. Jo0doe quotes a journal article in its description of UPA torturing women. But after it was shown that the article described NKVD dressing as UPA and committing atrocities, and that the UPA crimes were provoked by and responses to equally brutal Soviet activities, Jo0doe discovers that the author, a historian affiliated with Harvard, is merely a "grant-consuming Sovietologist."
- So, Magosci and Subtleny are mere Toronto editors, Burds is a "grant-consuming Sovietologist" with a "wild imagination" no less (see subsequent comments), but a historian who was a member of the Ideological Commission of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, S. Kulchytsky, is the real authority. I am not stating, of course, that Kulchytsky's work is rendered useless due to his association. He is, after all, affiliated with the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences. But I would compare it to the work of current of former OUN member historians doing historical research. Either one needs to arouse some healthy skepticism, especially in comparison to unaffiliated scholars such as Magocsi or Subtleny.Faustian (talk) 21:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Anyway spetsgruppa is not “masquerading as rebel bandits” despite wild imagination of JB – see the year - 23 July 1948 and remember about so-called UPA demobilization in 1947. Also “most editors” forgot what that “brave soldiers” visit Military Court (Щодо випадків грубого порушення законності в діяльності спецгруп МДБ йдеться і у доповідній військового прокурора військ МВС Українського округу Кошарського (№ 4/001345 від 15.02.1949), ) and join their counterpart somewhere Far East or North. As a full story - as you like. Jo0doe (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Following officially sanctioned procedures, Soviet policemen disguised themselves as rebels, then perpetrated atrocities in their name, hoping in this way to provoke distrust and antagonism between rebel units and the local population. In this context, gender violence was not an end in itself, but a tactical weapon that utilized women’s bodies to fight a wider conflict. Whether they were rapists in Soviet uniforms, petty officials in the local apparatus, or even members of Soviet spetsgruppy perpetrating acts of gender violence under orders, Soviet authorities did themselves play a critical role in the creation of an image of the enemy other that included not just Ukrainian men, but also Ukrainian women and children. The logic of Soviet institution building dictated a definition of the Ukrainian enemy that would justify violence against young and old, male and female.Faustian (talk) 21:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Here is what Soviet soldiers were doing, no better than UPA:
"After forty-five years of silence, noted Hungarian child psychologist from Transylvania, Alaine Polcz, revealed in her memoirs first published in 1991 that she had been gang-raped hundreds of times by Soviet soldiers in 1945. In Polcz’s account, Soviet soldiers reserved especially brutal reprisals for women suspected of pro-German collaboration: "The Russians, after first raping them, cut off with knives the breasts of the women who had cohabited with the Germans." This usually followed ritualized scenes of humiliation where the women’s heads were shaved, and then they were marched down local streets humiliated by jeers and insults from their former neighbors."Faustian (talk) 21:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- Bravo – test passed. Really interesting soviet agent -Mykhailo received advanced training in sabotage and diversion at a
special espionage school for infiltration agents set up by the Germans in Krakow. After leaving the school, Mykhailo began working in the central command of Ukrainian rebel intelligence from 1940. Returning to Ukraine as an officer in a special sabotage unit attached to the German army in June 1941, Mykhailo was appointed commander-in-chief of the entire SB by the end of the first year of the war. So everyone in OUN (B) was soviet agent – since most of them “received advanced training in sabotage and diversion at a special espionage school for infiltration agents set up by the Germans in Krakow”. You (OUN) always blaimed on somebody else - so you (OUN) have a good German teacher (also Dr.) Also - I answered on your "credibility" above Jo0doe (talk) 22:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I just checked Wilson's book - it was a different Lebed in UPA leadership - Vasyl - who was the Soviet mole, not Mykola (head of SB). Why do you lie about me being member of OUN? None of my grandparents were even members. I guess you can't help but to make things up.Faustian (talk) 03:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Believe me, this personal attitude ("you (OUN)", "why do you lie" etc.) is not going to be healthy to either of you. Why don't you both stick to the article and try to avoid making the remarks directed at other editors ? --Lysytalk 19:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Tys-Krokhmaliuk-Yuriy- citation
An excellent book - Volkischer Beobachter of OUN (B)– what a words are: “Jewish elements”, “our western civilization”, “name of Rus was usurped by Muscovite empire”,” elevating Russian to the level of “supermen” “ genocidal practice … Brezhnev and Kosygin”. Really interesting “Ethnic territorial map of 1939”. “Close collaboration between Gestapo and NKVD,… especially at the time the Soviet partisans appeared in Ukraine”. “In November 1943 military delegation of UPA went to Budapest to talk with Szombteli … Rumanian military leaders and representatives of polish underground.” “German army had a little experience in anti-partisan fighting” “Treaty between UPA and Hungarian Army in 1944 … similar treaty with AK. Large scale defection of Soviet troops to the side of UPA. Hundreds upon thousands of Red soldiers… gone over to the side of UPA,” “500000 deported”. “On May 12 German attacked the town of Kolky using few SS Divisions. German were not victories.” “Battle over Polish village of Zasmyky” (UPA against AK and SS ) “Carpathian foothill battle – On November 27 1943 two German division supported by air-force … Ukrainian insurgent numbered 600 men… German command ordered a general retreat … veritable panic amongst the German… Ukrainian insurgent captured a great quantity of arms and ammunition at the cost only 4 dead and 11 wounded.” “Battle near Villages Kamianka and Lypa July 9-16 1943 (but events relied to 1944) Three UPA batallion German concentrated 2 SS division numbering over 30000 men … German crippled by heavy losses, retreated”
“OUN-SB – methods of operation of the security service were and still are highly guarded secret.” Ambush of gen. Lutze Lutze proclaimed that he would liquidate … UPA ..” German entered an ambush area …Losses of Germans were extremely heavy. But Koch never acknowledged the ambush of UPA BB staff – “collaboration between German and Russian against Ukrainians”
Polish front – really interesting reading.
So I think would be reasonable to discuss with someone about one of WP credible editors which used WP for radical nationalism and xenophobic movement propaganda proposes. Also about "highly respected historians"? Jo0doe (talk) 16:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Use this page to discuss the article, please. What about the "highly respected historians"? --Lysytalk 19:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay. My opponent disparages Krokhmaluk and by extension prominant Western experts by quoting, demogogue-style, Krokhmaluk's statements that have nothing to do with what is quoted in this wikipedia article. This article doesn't cite Krokhmaliuk's sociological, cultural, political, or other such statements which is not the central topic of Krokhmaluk's work anyways. It cites his description of events involving UPA. More specifically, this article only cites Krokhmialuk's description of the same events that were described in less detail by recognized historians such as Subtelny and Magosci. So, for example, Magosci in his Ukraine: A History stated "for nearly a year the UPA - whose numbers by then may have been close to 100,000 - fought several pitched battles against both the retreating Germans and the advancing Soviets for control of the Carpathian passes." As was already written in this discussion section, "Magocsi, in Ukraine: a History, spends 40 pages (685–725) describing and briefly evaluating scores of sources for further reading. The evaluations are not in-depth, but he does at least mention the weak points of some...He starts the paragraph about WWII Ukrainian military organizations with Tys-Krokhmaliuk (1972). Robert Paul Magocsi [18] obtained his Ph.D. in History at Princeton and is a professor of history at the University of Toronto as well as a Fellow of the Royal Society of Canada, with over 450 publications. A respected source who approves of Krokhmaliuk's work.
- Krokhmaliuk's accounts of the Carpathian battles were also described in the online Encyclopedia of Ukraine published by the University of Toronto which stated, about UPA, "In 1944 it fought its largest engagements with German and Soviet forces. Retreating German units were frequently ambushed for their weapons and supplies. German attempts to secure areas of the Carpathian Mountains in the summer of 1944 led to several pitched battles with the UPA-West".
- The other information taken from Krokhmaliuk's work, about Operation BB, was included in Subtelny's book on Ukrainian history. As has already been desribed, Orest Subtelny [19] obtained his Ph.D. in history from Harvard and his works are published by the University of Toronto. He has written the entry on Ukraine in Encarta Encyclopedia and on Cossacks in the World Book Encyclopedia, and has given lectures at Columbia University. Subtleny also cites Krokhmaliuk's book and includes it as a source worth reading. Another endorsement from a respected historian.
- Krokhmaliuk is cited elsewhere. His book is described as "the Ukrainian diaspora’s definitive military history of the struggle against the Soviets during and after World War II" [20] by Jeffrey Burds, Associate of the Harvard Davis Center for Russian Studies of Northeastern University in Boston (his resume: [21]). Yuri Zhukov at the Institute for National Strategic Studies, National Defense University, Washington, DC cites him as well in his article about UPA written in the journal Small Wars and Insurgencies [22] in which he takes some numbers directly from Krokhmaliuk's book (pg. 443 of the article) Zhukov also, btw, confirmed that NKVD dressed as UPA and committed rapes and murders in western Ukraine.
- It should be noted that wikipedia is not about original archival research. Wikipedia articles summarize what is written by respected historians. Which is what Subtelny and Magosci clearly are, as is Burds. All three of them value Krokhmaliuk's work, granting his work legitimacy, at least within the confines of what the previous three cite. Faustian (talk) 20:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)Faustian (talk) 21:22, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about Krokhmaliuk, nor had I read his book. My comment however would be that if there is an option to cite a controversial author or a universally recognized and respected one, we should rather be doing the latter. But this is obvious, right ? I have myself removed from wikipedia anti-Ukrainian citations by Polish authors whom I considered not to be objective. --Lysytalk 21:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. However Krokhmaliuk seems to be widely respected among scholars for his work on facts involving UPA. He is cited in several journals and books, which I described above. The controversy is mostly coming from a wikipedia editor whose biases are well documented and who has claimed, for example, "UPA participation the Genocide of Polish community (it was only (and sole) large scale military action by UPA in 1943-44)". Moreover, the only things from Krokhmaliuk's book that are included in this article are elaborations of the same infromation included in the work of nearly universally recognized and respected sources, the books by Subtelny and Magosci. Subtelny and Magosci seem to have summarized what Krokhmaluk wrote in their general histories of Ukraine (the facts match, they cite Krokhmaluk as their source, of course they have include less detail than he does). Krokhmaliuk's works contribution is limited to just those exact events that Subtelny and Magosci summarized, to minimize any controversy. Does this seem reasonable to you?Faustian (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, I don't have an opinion yet. However, I'm a bit suspicious when I see that Krokhmaliuk claims that: UPA tried to avoid clashes with the regular units of the Soviet military because many of them were ethnic Ukrainians and were seen as a source of recruits into UPA, while a Ukrainian historian that I trust, Yaroslav Hrytsak, explains that this was a military tactics of UPA to hide in the forests and wait for the front line to pass, because if they confronted the Soviet front army, UPA would be quickly destroyed. So, I understand that the article quotes the opinion of Krokhmaliuk, but the facts might be different than what he attempted to present. --Lysytalk 21:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, yet the article (after Krokhmaliuk ?) gives only the declared political reason, and is mute about the practical military reason, which might question its credibility. UPA was a military organization. But this is only to illustrate my concerns, that Krokhmaliuk might be biased. A historian should present the events in a possibly most objective way, while it seems that he only gives the "more convenient" version of what happened. I may be wrong, but this is my first impression, after reading the article. It is written as if someone made effort to present UPA in the possibly most positive light. Even when we mention that UPA killed Poles in Volhynia, there is immediately "yes, but ..." follow-up sentence, which is not really related to UPA at all (that AK also killed civilians). So when I read the article, it seems to focus on the positive sides of UPA and minimize/justify/explain any negative aspects. I don't have enough knowledge or sources to correct it now, but that's the impression. --Lysytalk 23:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I feel that the massacres of Poles section should be expanded to include more details about UPA's involvement in this tragedy. I'm also removing the sentence about the numbers of Ukrainians killed in reprisal, as it does indeed change the balance somewhat. However, the background context is important.Faustian (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Interestingly, Hrytsak claims, that the massacre got out of the hands of UPA, which initially did not foresee its scale. Also much of the brutality was not due to UPA directly but because of the Ukrainian peasants who simply wanted to grab the farms of their Polish neighbours. The peasants were relatively primitive and often unarmed, so they used various barbaric tools and methods to murder the Poles. And the Poles did the same, but for different reason. They were a minority and could not dream of driving Ukrainians from the area, they simply defended themselves or executed a revenge with very similar methods. Many of the atrocities were also provoked by the communist partisan units, who sometimes pretended to be UPA or AK. This is all so extremely sad. In the result UPA in Poland is associated primarily with brutal criminals murdering women and children and Nazi collaborators. That's what Poles heard during WW2 and that's what the post-war communist propaganda preached. --Lysytalk 00:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Polish authors confirm the role of Soviet partisan units, too. --Lysytalk 10:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I assume “modern” based on OUN and German claims – yes, such claims was numerous, but I’ve seen any reasons to do so – to fight against 3 parties instead 2, while they need to fulfill the “plan on German bridges, trains” etc – adopted for them – I can’t see any such plan to provoke already friendly nations? Also quite widely known info about “red partisans” – even some of them was captured by soviet partisans and shooted. See about UPA provocateurs at [23] p.446. However every action of soviet partisans against German provoked a revenge from last which anyway caused the significant victims at neighboring villages – but just the case. Also soviet are not angels and that is was not a green-tourism – but most of violence’s cases was punished – even common death sentence. Also, as for example – at [24] bottom of page 249 top of 250 you can’t find any similar reports from soviet. Jo0doe (talk) 20:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've also checked all the places in the article that use Krokhmaliuk reference, and they all seem to attempt to portray UPA in a positive light. This makes me suspect, that Krokhmaliuk might be biased as an author. Does he write anything about tactical mistakes of UPA, or only about the successes and brilliant victories ? --Lysytalk 21:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- His book contains more successes than failures, but also includes some failures. Again, to be conservative, I only used two specific episodes from his book because they were elaborations of what Magosci and Subtelny had written. Both were UPA successes. Krokhmaliuk didn't have as much access to information about the post-war struggle against the Soviets - the Soviets were much more effective at defeating UPA than the Germans were - so his greater descriptions of success versus failures is understandable. The book is mostly about UPA's struggles with partisans and Germans (and the beginning of their anti-Soviet struggle), times when other sources also confirm that UPA did well against its adversaries. Faustian (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP:V Questionable sources
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Should we stick with WP or with UKR-Diaspora. Also what about clear falsification by somebody? Jo0doe (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well Krokhmaliuk's work is cited and applauded by reliable sources (see the above authors) meets the criteria of a good source. Some of his statements (Muscovites asurped the name of Rus) are not very polite, to put it mildly, but no different than what has been said by respected historians such as Mykhailo Hrushevskyi. No strong evidence to disqualify Krokhmaliuk's book as a questionable source. It's clearly not questionable for Magosci, for Subtelny, for Harvard-afficliated Burd, for Zhukov of the Institute for National Strategic Studies, National Defense University, Washington, DC. Why should it be questionable for wikipedia? Faustian (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Extremist sources Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution.Jo0doe (talk) 21:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- So should we censor all of Kulchytsky's work because he was a member of the ideological commision of the central committee of the Ukrainian Communist Party? Indeed, should we censor everything written by Soviet historians, because communism was extreme? Of course not. Likewise with Krokhmaliuk's work.Faustian (talk) 22:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
* You've got someting against PR of China? Silly efforts Jo0doe (talk) 09:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed solution
Since WP allow Y.Krokhmaklyuk book “Extremist sources Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist …as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves”. It should be used. But with caution.
Extremism of UPA acknowledged as extremist in: World Jewish community (many millions), Russia (~170 millions), Poland (26? (correct me if I’m wrong) millions), most of Ukrainian population (majority in East, Center and South regions) as also by many historians and organization.
Not accepted in tiny minorities (compared to above) :majority of Western Ukrainian Dispora ~ 2 million) and majority of Western Ukrainian regions (3-5 millions) and tiny minority of historians (known for POV (anti-communists, anti-Semitic, Russophobia etc. ).
Thus I propose to use Y.Krokhmaklyuk as wider as possible (I’ll forward this book to Lysy) with quotation – accordingly with post war OUN/UPA claims and (to balance the sources) provide own war-time OUN data and relevant to the time reports of Abwehr and SS authorities, AK, soviet partisans, NKVD/MGB with mentioned source in Archive (like 3 August 1946. RGASPI, f. 17, op. 122, d. 137, l. 44. or Bundesarchive R6/687 Bl.9) but with care in order to avoid POV of authors. Because now we’ve a situation when UPA “German crippled by heavy losses, retreated” but Head of SS General-Major Brigadefuhrer Brenner “The UPA has halted all attacks on units of the German army. The UPA systematically sends agents (razvedchiki), mainly young women, into enemy-occupied territory, and the results of the intelligence are communicated to Department 1c of the [German] Army Group” on the southern Front”. Should we trust(put in WP) in “ghost squadrons of UPA fighters which spoiled the karma of 3 SS-divisions – thus they was became week and annihilated later by Soviet tanks Armies”. We should not omit general overview which was significant compared with specific facts (like lLong ive Ukraine without Jews, Poles and Germans; Poles behind the river San, Germans to Berlin, and Jews to the gallows - deffinetelly there is moskali?)- e.g. if in 1941 OUN (B) General Instruction “ UPA Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.” What questions remains after in relation to Lvov’s Professors and 1943-1944 genocide of Poles? Dixi. Untill this – tags must be there. Jo0doe (talk) 09:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, as stated, Krokhmaliuk's book has met the approval and been used by prominant and highly regarded scholars such as Magosci, Subtelny, the Harvard-affiliated professor of history Burd, and for Zhukov of the Institute for National Strategic Studies, National Defense University, Washington, DC. If it's good enough for these people, it's good enough for wikipedia. As for UPA's extremism - it's certainly no more extreme than communism and nobody excludes works written in the USSR or China etc. although of course we have to be cautious with such material. That's why when I used Krokhmaliuk for the article, I limited it to information that had also been covered by Magosci and Subtelny. I know that you don't like them, but the fact is that they are highly regarded in their field and wikipedia is based on the work of such experts - it's not a place for original archival research but to communicate the consensus of the historical community.Faustian (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please read book first. I've no comments on your silly demagogy Jo0doe (talk) 20:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
OUN(B)-UPA history in brief
– more detailed [25] and [26] [27] [28]
After no answer by Germans on OUN (B) Memorandum from August, 8 1941 about adoption of Ukrainian State and Ukrainian Government which be followed by creation of Ukrainian Army “which join the German army until last will win” and arrests of pro-active OUN(B)&(M) members which started in mid of September, 1941 OUN adopt policy of “tolerance to oppressor” together with build-up an own network within Nazi administration and infiltrating in significant extent into auxiliary police. Second wave of repression an arrests in November- December 1941 lead to farther calming and under grounding of activity.
In April 1942 on 2-d OUN(B) conference was adopted policy of “build-up and development of own forces”, action against own partisan activity, main enemy to fight – Soviet partisans. In July 1942 OUN (B) issued a statement in which main enemy was mentioned “Moscow-jews bolshevism”. Significant effort was given to developing different types of structures, and to calm “before time” population appraisals against Germans. In October-November 1942 in Volynia-Polissya significant effort applied to calm down the appraisal tendencies also provoked by Soviet Partisans. At the beginning of December 1942 near Lemberg conducted “Military conference of OUN(B)” which result was an adopted a speed-up the build-up process for creation of Military forces of OUN(B). Volynia-Polissya was selected as formation. 17-21 February 1943 on III Conference of OUN despite the different propositions about military actions was adopted a vision of Klyachkivskyy and Shukhevych - main enemy soviet partisans and poles, as regarding to German – activity should be conducted in favor of OUN(B) interests and has a direction of self-defense of people.” OUN(B) ordered their member in German auxiliary police to leave with arms their service and move to forests. Between 15/03 and 10/04 1943 4 to 5 thousands of “shuma” moved to forests. At same time OUN(M) and UPA (B-B) does not agreed with sole dictatorship of Bendera and refuse to join their movement. OUN(B) SB forcibly acquired their opponent units into OUN(B)-UPA. Decision to choose an “UPA” name for a movement was adopted as the beginning of spring – initial was “military detachments of OUN-SD”. In soviet partisan report mentioned what “after 20.03.43 OUN(B) submit an order to form Ukrainian national army from policeman, cossacks and local Ukrainians oriented for OUN(B) and UNR.” In 11/04/43 report soviet partisans mentioned about mass murdering (slaughtering) of polish civilians by nationalists. From April OUN(B)-UPA also became more active in their actions against soviet partisans. OUN(B)-UPA SB used tactics of provocation of German to involve more new volunteers. At same time OUN(B)-UPA SB continued forcibly acquiring of UPA (B-B) and OUN (M) units. During May –August UPA continued to improve their structure and increase the number of controlled areas. But Kovpak raid (June- September 1943) show’s what in Galizia there no counterpart for soviet partisans, thus July 15 1943 OUN(B) issued order for urgent creation of UNS (Ukrainian National Self-defense) detachments which engaged in clashes with small partisans units since August 1943. In August 1943. on 3-d Congress of OUN(B)was adopted new strategy “two-fronts fighting” – against “German Imperialism” and “Moscow Bolshevizm”. However as October, 1 1943 tried to establish a contacts with German in order “to fight with same enemy”, and in November-December on regional level (between local UPA units and same level of German command). Since February 1944 soviet partisans reported about cooperative action of UPA and Germans against them. In March this contacts was established on high level and UPA began received a soviet arms and ammunition from German stockpiles. Some towns and areas was given under UPA control and Germans which located in this areas was moved to reinforce front units. Proposals objections additions wellcomed Jo0doe (talk) 20:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, examples of your omissions.
- You "conveniently" ignored the statement published by OUN in July 1941, (pg.90), "All work with the occupants (this word was underlined) this is a crime, a national betrayal. There can be no cooperation, that is harmful for Ukraine."
- *You mean “sometiemes at the beginning of September”? And oops – you missed Gestapo (thus such cooperation exist i before) also it not sourced statement. (instead Memorandum)Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Page 90 In a letter from August 29, 1941 froom Stetsko to Bandera, "Our cooperation with the Germans is dangerous and slippery. We can't practically carry out two politics: one together with Germans, while at the same time undertaking "our OUN work".
- *Interesting interpretation of mentioned in private letter wording “Our further cooperation with the Germans is dangerous and slippery. We can’t carry out two politics in practice : go together with Germans and in a same time [conducts] our OUN’s” – [conducts] – editors insertion. What words missed/added? Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The article states that, nevertheless, the OUN did not call its members for open warfare against the occupants and instead directed them to set up their organizations everywhere. You lie by omission (this is a fact, not an insult) by repeating from the article that OUN did not take up arms, was quiet while at the same time conveniently ignoring the other information.
- "Tolerance to oppressor", as you call it, in the actual context described in the article, meant laying low until the organization could be set up, the police infiltrated, etc. In other words, for groundwork to be created for the resistance.
Does I’ve not mentioned this above?Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, (page 93) stated that the OUN sent its activists to infiltrate the police. The Germans tried to stop this infiltration but did not succeed. And indeed, later on, when the time came, the OUN members who had joined the police, taken advantage of the German training they had received, and then then deserted with their weapons. You twist these facts by saying, in your words, "UPA formed on base of Nazi controlled Ukrainian Auxiliary Police shutzmanshaft – main draught force of Holocaust in Ukraine and Belarus (up to 1/4 UPA number and more than half on initial stage)." Another example of your dishonesty.
- So 4-5 thousands of shutzmanshaft police in March (out of 20 as in Abwehr reports In November) - does not join the UPA and UPA order from 20/3/1943 – is lie?
- That fact is correct. Your statements do this:
- Lying by omission
- Lying by omission is when an important fact is omitted, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. This includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. One may by careful speaking contrive to give correct but only partial answers to questions, thus never actually lying.
- (taken from the appropriate Wiki entry)
- So when you state the fact that 4-5 thousand Ukrainian police deserted and joined UPA, but do not state that the OUN had been infiltrating the police with its members and that the Germans were opposed to and tried to stop this infiltration, you lie by ommission. You try to deliberately leave another person with a misconception. Clearly you are editting in bad faith.Faustian (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- You also "conveniently" left out the mass arrests of OUN members (page 91).
- Please find with Ctrl+F “and arrests of pro-active OUN(B)&(M) members which started in mid of September” “Second wave of repression an arrests in November- December 1941”Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- The work cited stated, page 98, (not referring to a specific time although the chapter covers 1941-1942) "the most active power in the Ukrainian resistence movement was, without a doubt, Bandera's OUN, whose authority in the western Ukrainian lands was constantly growing.
- Unreferenced claims also – thus – as based on whole chapter – “activity” limited to propaganda.
In same time in farther chapters as “most active” mentioned UPA (B-B). I assume on others facts you’ve no objection.Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Jo0doe's approach to this and many documents is to selectively pick and choose those facts that support his POV, conveniently ignoring others, to paint a false picture.
- It's truly breathtaking - he cannot get his hands on any document without twisting it to support his biased POV. Indeed, often his presentation of material has the opposite meaning of what the author intended.Faustian (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Also could you please use your perfect English to translate accurately mentioned exact story instead “a captured UPA member claimed that in these clashes UPA lost 200 fighters while their Soviet enemies lost 2,000”. Also I propose not to use wording “claimed” for official documents figures – instead use “mentioned”, “stated” and give facts (182,543) separate from estimation (500,000). Also please avoid nonsense like “estimated anywhere from 47,800 to 500,000, only 46% of whom were ethnic Ukrainians” – So may I use mentioned at ISBN 9666-02-2238 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum p.165 data? Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Also very important thing which mentioned above: “OUN members who had joined the police, taken advantage of the German training they had received”. I add here the fact what almost all remains of “Ukrainian legion” together with Shukhevych also joined Nazi service – and after some training and by end of March 1942 “fight for freedom of Ukraine” at Belarus. Because the story of their “brave actions” has not significant factual base (only remembrances of few victims which was lucky to survive) I mention only their own data (201 Shuma battalion) - they exterminated more then 2000 of soviet partisans, while own losses – 49 killed and 40 wounded. So taking into account the ratio – it’s clear visible who was this “soviet partisans”.
Interesting also what they do it under general command of Erich_von_dem_Bach. So at the spring we’ve 4-5 of shuma police “taked advantage of the German training” (Lember, Vinnitsa, Rivne and elsewhere ghettos and POW-camps) under command of recently returned from Belarus Shukhevych (also together with “soldiers” which was under his). So the future actions and methods against Poles can not be assumed as surprise. Objection? Jo0doe (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
UPA and Western Ukraine's Poles
Thanks, Faustian, for expanding the section of the article. I think it now reflects well the current knowledge of the historians. I think we have the problem with the estimate of the number of victims. As for the Ukrainian victims, most Polish historians estimate the number of Ukrainians killed in Polish retaliation actions of AK to be about 2000. On the other hand they estimate the number of all Ukrainian civilians killed by various Polish formation throughout the war in various areas to be 15000-20000. These are of course two different numbers and should not be confused. Do we have any estimates of Ukrainian historians ? --Lysytalk 09:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Some facts missed – actions started in April. Also not mentioned some Klaychkivskyy order in June for Poles extermination. Missed (or postponed) July actions. OUN(B) war-time claims what this actions was a result of Polish and German collaboration and pay-back act for nazi-poles extermination of Ukrainian villages.
- Missed the facts what such activity migrated together with UPA to Galizia and behind the Kurzon line – and conducted accordingly to “balance of force”. Since end of February UPA involve in “anti-polish actions” a regiments of SS-Galizia division – 4 and 5. Brutality was ended after UPA extermination by Soviet and Polish forces. Jo0doe (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- But this article is about UPA, not SS-Galizia. Why do you want to include SS Galizia here ? --Lysytalk 10:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Because such mentioned in scholars work – see [29] p.281, p.283 p.284 p.285 and because nominally this units (4 and 5) nominally can not be in SS-Galizia because SS division can have only 3 units – thus that fact predominantly used by OUN(B)/UPA to condom themselves and blame mythical “4-s German regiment” as you can see here [30].
- Arguments above are irrelevent. Either they were, or were not, an UPA unit. If they were not, the info better belongs in the Massacre of Poles in Volyn article rather than this one.Faustian (talk) 14:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Also would be good to summarize to section with words: This theme was a long time taboo in USSR and Polands, but some cases was blamed on Germans. Amongst others factors this what caused because collaborationism was a forbidden thematic and nominally Slavic people even more – Soviet and Poland citizens can not commit act same as Nazi. At same time OUN(B)/UPA tried to blame such action to UPA (B-B) and to OUN (M) members or suppress this theme at all (as for example – they prefer not mention Klyachkivskiy – first commander of UPA at all or as such – because most orders of extermination belongs to him).
- A total lie. Here is the Encyclopedia of Ukraine article: [31] "in July and August 1943. Klym Savur, the leader of the OUN (B) for northwestern Ukraine, became the commander in chief of the unified UPA". There is an entire entry about him also [32]. Here he is mentioned in a Ukrainian natioanlist youth organization website :[33] "The first general commander of UPA was Dmytro Klachkivskiy (pseudonym Klym Savur), who was the OUN leader in the North-western Ukrainian territories “Okhrim”, and “Bilash” from August of 1943." And here is an article about him on the modern OUN's website: [34]. Yeah, you just keep showing us how "honest" you are.Faustian (talk) 15:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Even it present time some OUN(B)/UPA and western Ukrainian “historians” tried to justify such genocide through “pre-war Poland policy” “Ukrainians also suffered same from Poles and in same extent” (increasing the victims number), “soviet provocations” etc. Your opinionJo0doe (talk) 13:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Does any of this look FAMILIAR
From User:Mikkalai page
If surgery was like Wikipedia...[1]
Several surgipedians have gathered in an operation theater. On the table lies an unconscious man whos left leg looks dark. Surgipedian #1 grabs a sheet prepared by the patient's doctor that details the problem.
Surgipedian #1: "Whoa, he's been lying here for 26 hours, we sure got a backlog again. It also says on this that he has a 'claudication' and a 'chronic venous insufficiency' in the left leg", looks at right leg, "and we are asked to do a 'leg segmental arterial doppler ultrasound exam'. Whatever that is. His leg looks pretty good to me".
Surgipedian #2: "You looked at the wrong leg. It says the left one".
Surgipedian #1: "I looked at the left and it's looking totally normal!"
Surgipedian #2: "The left from his point of view! Do you know where your left leg is?"
Surgipedian #3: "No need for shouting, #2, please remember Surgipedia guideline 'Assume Good Faith'. #1 was just trying to be constructive!"
Surgipedian #2: "I was only trying to be constructive, too!"
Surgipedian #3: "Well, let's just get to back to this guy."
Surgipedian #1, feeling securely at the helm again: "I remember something I read once on a website about heart diseases; when your arms or legs turn dark, you got a heart problem".
Surgipedian #3: "Yup, you are right. It's something about the veins in the heart being clogged up."
Surgipedian #2, feeling outdone: "I think it's something about having not enough oxygen in your blood!"
Surgipedian #1: "Can you cite a source for that?"
Surgipedian #2: "My aunt Thelma had something like that and I wrote a paper about it for my biology class at school!"
Surgipedian #3: "Please remember Surgipedia guideline: No Original Research! Let's get back to the man's heart problem! What should we do?"
Surgipedian #1: "I think you need to cut open his ribs and give him a heart massage or clean the veins or something".
Surgipedian #3: "Sounds reasonable. After all, when you get a massage to your back, the blood there flows better as well. I just wrote an article about it".
Surgipedian #2: "Heh, that is original research, too!"
Surgipedian #3: "Several surgipedians agreed on that article to be correct. Are you trying to be a nuisance or do you want to do that man some good?"
Surgipedian #2: "Of course!"
Surgipedian #2: "Then please stay constructive! How do we cut the man's ribs?"
Surgipedian #1: "You need a saw or something."
Surgipedian #3: "A saw? Surgeons use scalpels when they operate. I think you just need to cut a hole and poke your fingers through".
Without further ado, he grabs a scalpel and cuts a hole approximately where the heart is and sticks two fingers through.
Surgipedian #3: "I can't reach the heart, my fingers are not long enough!"
Surgipedian #2: "Then do that thing with the veins!"
Surgipedian #3: "How do you do that?"
Surgipedian #2 "Well, my aunt Thelma finally had something they call a bypass and they cut open the veins, I think".
Surgipedian #3: "But that is orig..., well let's try it. But I will have to push in the scalpel pretty deep to reach the heart. Shall we do it?"
Surgipedian #1, #2: "Support".
Surgipedian #3 remembers Surgipedia guideline "Be Bold!", grabs the scalpel in his fist and swings his arm in preparation of a deep push into the hole, but at that moment a surgeon comes by.
Surgeon: "Stop! What in the world are you doing?"
Surgipedian #3: The man has a problem in his leg and we are going to cut his heart veins open".
Surgeon: "What? All I see is a man with vascular problem in his leg and another that wields a scalpel like a knife. Are you aware that pushing a scalpel into someone's heart will kill that person?"
Surgipedian #1: "We have decided by majority that this is the proper thing to do. Besides, can you prove that pushing a scalpel into someones heart is deadly?"
Surgeon: "You decided by MAJORITY? Are you all nuts?"
Surgipedian #2 feels that there is finally someone besides him to put down: "Please, no personal attacks!"
Surgeon: "I will f*&^$%@+! personal attack you if you endanger someones life!"
Surgipedian #3: "We need to call an admin!"
Surgeon: "Alright, do that, but put that scalpel down!"
An admin comes by.
Admin: "I have heard that a guest is violating Surgipedia rules".
Surgeon: "I am a surgeon and these people are about to kill this man by pushing a knife into his heart!"
Admin: "Reviewing the archived discussion, you are in violation of rules Surgipedia: Assume Good Faith, Surgipedia: Vandalism, Surgipedia: Neutral Point of View, Surgipedia: No Personal Attacks, Surgipedia: Avoid Weasel Words and Surgipedia: Do not disrupt Surgipedia to make a point. You will be blocked from accessing Surgipedia for one week. Please use the time to review Surgipedia guidelines and rules".
Admin and desperate Surgeon leave.
Surgipedian #3: "Okay, where were we?"
Surgipedian #2: "You were about to cut his heart."
Surgipedian #3: "Yup. I propose that so-called 'surgeon' was just a troll and we should go ahead."
Surgipedian #1 and #2: "Agree".
Surgipedian #3 slams the scalpel into the man's heart, who is dead within moments.
Surgipedian #3: "Why did he die?"
Surgipedian #1: "It's his fault. There was nothing WE did wrong!"
Bobanni (talk) 20:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Interesting story with a message. The blocked guest was right, and the patient died. The admin was wrong. Now, can you remove it from this talk page back to where it came from ? :-) --Lysytalk 21:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
UPA's struggle against Germany
Faustian I've added facts from Krokhmalyuk - please fix my references. If you would like I also include there first battle of UPA in May with 2 SS divisions. Unfortunatelly I can't find any info in his book about 26 of July Battle (HURBY) nor MAy 1944 - so I hided them. I'll not replay on you comments to my wording to Lysy - since as I've seen from previous attempt - it's useless. But your "credibility" (if any exist before) is deffinatelly spoiled by your "facts" I also propose to put Soviet Partisan in separate section - since we've a plenty of info. Jo0doe (talk) 16:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed the following from the article, because it seems to be much too specific for a general article:
"He was charged with a number of military defeats. The overwhelming German superiority in manpower and arms had proved inadequate in themselves to liquidate UPA-North. As for prominent example, battalion and 2 companies of UPA insurgent armed with light machine guns along with 75-mm cannon and few mortar raided the Kamin Koshyrsky at evening of August 19. Starting operation at dawn they captured all city by 17:00. Amongst captured 20000 round of ammunition, 5 machine guns, 4 “EMPI” over 100 pistols , 16 typewriters, one car, 4 radio receivers and one radio-broadcasting set, 11 horses with saddles, 7 motorcycles 600 centners (as in text) of salt 500 of floor and 800 of sugar leather, uniform and like. German suffered heavy losses: - over 100 dead out of total 147 Policemen, 200 member of Wehrmacht and number of fliers from nearby German Airbase as well as a number of administration. Insurgent losses – only two wounded."
- Perhaps a different article can be written about that battle. Number of typewriters captured (among other things) doesn't belong here. I've also unhid information that you hid, just because you claim that you haven't found the page numbers in the book.Faustian (talk) 17:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Details are important to assess the reliability of this data - see WP:vandalism. I stated what Hurba nor MAY BATTLES DOES NOT EXIST at this book. Anderson and YK - self contrary - so I update with latest - (1972 vs 1968) vesion. Jo0doe (talk) 17:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion section is the place for that - place the details in the discussion. Information such as number of typewriters captured does not belong in the article. You are deliberately compromising the article in order to to make your argument. Keep it in the discussion section.
- I know that you stated that those battles do not exist in the book. That is your claim. I suggest you look again. If I had the book now I would give you page numbers. But you will have to wait a few hours.Faustian (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Important data - battalion and 2 companies of UPA insurgent armed with light machine guns along with 75-mm cannon and few mortar raided the Kamin Koshyrsky at evening of August 19. German suffered heavy losses: - over 100 dead out of total 147 Policemen, 200 member of Wehrmacht and number of fliers from nearby German Airbase as well as a number of administration. Insurgent losses – only two wounded." - you deleted and replayesed with falsification - "On August 19-20 UPA captured the military center of Kamin Koshyrsky, defeating several German battalions and capturing large quantities of arms and ammunition".
- Page 242, "on August 19-20 the UPA took Kamin Koshyrsky, a fortified military center, capturing huge quantities of arms and munitions. The German garrison, which consisted of a few battalions, was rapidly dispersed and destroyed." My summary that you quoted is accurate. You have a problem with that?Faustian (talk) 05:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Also In November 1943, UPA battle groups "Black Forest" and "Makivka" defeated 12 German battalions supported by the German air force - that is also falsification since you've mentioned same battle (mentioned above) as 2 different.
- What are you talking about?
"On July 26, 1944, near the village of Nedilna, the UPA defeated another German division, and captured its entire supply column, including many officers and soldiers" - there no such battle in this book. Any question? Jo0doe (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay. I've just spent almost an hour looking for that in the book, and could not find the battle on July 26, 1944 near Nedilna in which the supply column was captured. I am going to bed. I will reread the book at my leisure, and hopefully will come aross it eventually. In the meantime, I don't oppose hiding that statement.Faustian (talk) 05:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
UPA's struggle against Germany part 2
Or story about how wild imagination became myth and later transformed into lie and propagnda: 20:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC) this page initially was updated with Wpedian who add a Krokhmaliuk's an author of sentence :”Cooperation of Germans with Soviet partisans”
Some of them do have specific page numbers, which are visible in the edit screen but not when one views the article. Also, I think it is useful to keep them where they are, so that we know the specific sources for some of the statements. 00:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Krokhmaluk, Y. (1973). UPA Warfare in Ukraine. New York: Vantage Press, p. 242. Thanks, indeed. However some refs, like Toynbee or Krokhmaluk do not give specific pages, therefore are not easily verifiable and not very useful for inline references. --Lysytalk 06:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Really? So... "In May and July 1944, two more attempts by the Germans to capture Carpathian mountain passes were repulsed. The latter victory involved the defeat of two German divisions supported by artillery. On July 26, 1944, near the village of Nedilna, the UPA defeated another German division, and captured its entire supply column, including many officers and soldiers." Well, which ones? Divisional numbers, please. --HanzoHattori 13:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Those details were taken from a book by Krokhmaliuk about UPA operations that was cited in Subtelny as a source for further readings. 19:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The source stated two divisions without specifying what kind of divisions they were. 20:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
As I've said, our job is not to second-guess the conclusions or the way of deriving conclusions of legitimate historians. 20:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
15:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
It cites his description of events involving UPA.
Moreover, the only things from Krokhmaliuk's book that are included in this article are elaborations of the same infromation included in the work of nearly universally recognized and respected sources, the books by Subtelny and Magosci.
Well Krokhmaliuk's work is cited and applauded by reliable sources (see the above authors) meets the criteria of a good source.
statement published by OUN in July 1941, (pg.90), "All work with the occupants
I have removed the following from the article, because it seems to be much too specific for a general article:
know that you stated that those battles do not exist in the book. That is your claim. I suggest you look again. If I had the book now I would give you page numbers.
Because the provided by him edits and reverts included a falsification of statements in sources, twist the facts and misuse a data an can be assumes such actions as deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia and use as soapbox for OUN (B) (and not OUN (M) and OUN (UNR)) propaganda about brave fights of UPA/OUN(B) against numerous SS-divisions.
- No, twisting sources is what you do, as well documented on these talk pages. Claiming that I am a propagandist for OUN (B) as you do repeatedly is absurd - check my edits on the OUN page, I added the information about their fascist ideology and what Sheptytsky said about them being murderers.Faustian (talk) 02:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Now edits continued and reflect his deliberate actions to censoring the facts and mislead the visitors through redistributing important data through article.
- You mean, putting the data about fighting Germans together, and putting data about fighting Soviets together, instead of putting everything you found into the history section in the beginning of the article? Sorry, there should not be a "history" section with everything you find about UPA vs. Soviets put together, then a separate UPA vs. Germans section, and an UPA vs. Soviets section. Faustian (talk) 02:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Falsifications still lasts. Reasons to hide a details “because it seems to be much too specific for a general article” are quite simple – because it clear show the how false mythical Tys-Krokhmaluyk were only few examples:
- “He was charged with a number of military defeats.” Because it clear false
- “battalion and 2 companies of UPA insurgent armed with light machine guns along with 75-mm cannon” – UPA never had Germans caliber 75-mm cannon.
- “Amongst captured 20000 round of ammunition, 5 machine guns, 4 “EMPI” over 100 pistols , 16 typewriters, one car, 4 radio receivers and one radio-broadcasting set, 11 horses with saddles, 7 motorcycles 600 centners (as in text) of salt 500 of floor and 800 of sugar leather, uniform and like”. – sweet dreams of poor western Ukrainian peasants – 80 tons of sugar, 50 tons of flour and 60 tons of salt. As regards to “large quantities of arms and ammunition” mentioned later for this battle –
- - “20000 round” – it’s only 1 or 2 box depending on caliber and types of ammo,
- - 4 “EMPI” –so small and no rifles at all very strange – especially in terms of 147 (Polish) Policemen,
- - “but over 100 pistols” – really interesting figure – look like they defeated predominantly officers or special-units soldiers
- over 100 dead out of total 147 Policemen, 200 member of Wehrmacht and number of fliers from nearby German Airbase as well as a number of administration. Insurgent losses – only two wounded – described later in book as “defeating several German battalions”– UPA-terminators simply replaced the damaged nuclear fuel-elements. So few words but to much lie – there no Airbase in vicinity of this settlement, there no 200 member of Wehrmacht (since Wehrmach was on the front-line) and there no battalions see more detailed - [35] but with caution since it also POV of author since he is not from KK. Also would be useful soviet POV full of propaganda, but nevertheless interesting for details about KK [36]
So what we should note about numerous SS divisions defeated by UPA - lie as is Jo0doe (talk) 22:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
UPA's History & Origins
Interesting, but one of WP editors known for deliberately including reference sources which not inline with WP:V in order to include a falsification data into article and deliberately and continuously dismissed the other editors concerns about reliability of such data through extensive demagogy has provide a right idea – so would be good to add separate section named UPA's Origins which will cover the 1941-42 story with well sourced and accessible facts.
UPA's Origins
- staring from OUN (B) Memorandum from August, 8 1941 about Ukrainian Army “which join the German army until last will win” and refined with
- OUN (B) General Instruction “ UPA Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.”
- followed by unreferenced in source OUN(B) demagogical blames on Ukrainians which cooperated with Gestapo.
- Ukrainian legion short info will be also relevant – as Shykhyvich and most of it joined the UPA or 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr.1) in spring 1943/
1942
- April 1942 on 2-d OUN(B) conference was adopted policy of “build-up and development of own forces”, action against own partisan activity, main enemy to fight – Soviet partisans.
- July 1942 OUN (B) issued a statement in which main enemy was mentioned “Moscow-jews bolshevism”.
- beginning of December 1942 near Lemberg conducted “Military conference of OUN(B)” which result was an adopted a speed-up the build-up process for creation of Military forces of OUN(B).
UPA's History
- 3-d Conference of OUN Lviv 17-21 Febuary 1943
- Shuma police units well trained on Jews exterminations (only one example [37] amongst thousands) joined the UPA
- If you find a good source for this, it's very important data that belongs in the origins section.Faustian (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Spring 1943 Call for creation of 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr.1) in
Galicia, 4 and 5 regiment of which will be later conduct cooperative actions with UPA at the beginning of 1944 against polish population of Galicia. Also Ukrainian SS-man of encircled and defeated by Soviet Army in July 1944 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr.1) which failed to retreat joined the UPA together with others Galician volunteers, which was not included in this division initially.
- At 3-d Great Extraordinary Meeting of OUN in august 1943
- Late 1943- beginning of 1944 cooperation with Germans (initially with Wehrmacht later with SS)
- 1944 – actions in favor of German army against Small soviet units and local authorities – “shoot behind the corner” tactics
- 1944-45 extermination of large and middle size units of UPA by NKVD and SMERSH
- 1945-1946 – wiping out of small units of UPA by NKVD operation
- 1947-1950 – hide and run tactics of few remains
- 1950-55 last traces of OUN/UPA wiped out.
So more or less active UPA period referred – march 1943 – till 1946 extermination of Poles 1944 – February 1945 – action in favor of Germans, winter 1945/1946 and spring 1946 – end of UPA as military formation. So – 3 year (1,5 under Germans) instead of myth about decade of fight created by someone who failed to handled the fact of 3 decades of partisans in Vietnam and Laos (see last sentence of Introduction). Why so long – till 1956 – even today hard to find 2-3 persons in huge Carpathian forests, so it’s more hard to find if they hided in well camouflaged underground bunker.
Few issues queried above in talk page by known for his credibility Wpedian: I’ve not find in pre-Internet Era (USSR and PRP) common usage of Klyachkivskyy as first commander of UPA.
- Everybody makes mistakes. Klyachkivsky (Klym Savur) was easily found as first leader of UPA in diaspora literature, not ignored as you said. The problem isn't with your mistakes, but with your pattern of dishonesty.Faustian (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
As regarding to military data – see WP:ASF as Plato was a philosopher is a fact as same as MP38/40 has a caliber of 9mm while PPSH and PPS has 7.62,mm and last one has only one type of ammo cartridge while first with 2 of different capacity, same story with MG-34 and MG-42 and PDM and SG-43, there few in number operational SS-divisions in 1943 etc. etc. – and there is a lot of such facts which well known and undisputed amongst persons which more or less interested in such type of story. So the simple word like “division supported with artillery” looks like “men with a head” and in general reflect the credibility of the source. Jo0doe (talk) 15:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC) As such, thay “issues” can not be a themes of discussions.
Mainstream historians about SS divisions at Ukraine (May 1943-July 1944)
I’ve added non OUN (B)/UPA reference data for Bandenbekampfung (which was mentioned in this article with Grammar mistake since 2006 – thanks to most credible Wpedain) and SS divisions at Ukraine. So if such data will be censored (removed as non relevant to article) by Wpedian of known for deliberately including reference sources which not inline with WP:V in order to include a falsification data into article and deliberately and continuously dismissed the other editors concerns about reliability of such data through extensive demagogy and censoring. I’ll have no option to solve that issue (falsification, censoring etc) accordingly to WP: Policy. Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 10:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your dishonest use of sources is well documented.Faustian (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- You mean like "You "conveniently" ignored the statement published by OUN in July 1941, (pg.90), "All work with the occupants (this word was underlined) this is a crime, a national betrayal. There can be no cooperation, that is harmful for Ukraine." or Like this words "So you admit that you embellish stories by adding details to them."?Jo0doe (talk) 18:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your dishonest use of sources is well documented.Faustian (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Undefined terms
- 3-d
mean third
- OUN(B)
OUN under Bandera
- OUN(M)
OUN under Melnik
- Armia Krajowa
AK - polish Nazi-resistance formation Jo0doe (talk) 08:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Confusion
Article switches from "army" to "partisan" Bobanni (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
No, to "military formation" as it really wasJo0doe (talk) 08:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Stats
- Sentences per paragraphs 17.1
- Word per sentences 25.5
- Flesch Reading Ease 19.3
- Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 12
Strategy for improvement
Shorten sentences (remove redundant adjectives and break up into shorter sentences)
Smaller paragraphs (Break up into smaller paragraphs)
Bobanni (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Examples of vandalism
Facts Removal
- “'was a Ukrainian military formation” – mislead visitors since Ukrainian Insurgent Army – it’s not army but military formation like “IRA”, “Machdi Army”, etc.
- “OUN accepted” – this article about UPA – should be mentioned what UPA intended to be a base for creation of Ukrainian Army in Independent Ukraine under dictatorship of Bandera.
- (SS units operated alongside the Nazi Army who were responsible for intelligence, central security, policing action, and the mass extermination), = what a silly explanation – whould be better to give a link on Waffen-SS_divisions
- I didn't make that change; perhaps you can explian it better or more clearly.Faustian (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's Bobbani work. So the facts are Nazi has not any other SS-divisions (Bobanni and you would like to see) exept Waffen-SS_divisions
they also have not any police divisions - as you claim as OR - it's facts which widely known for historians and for evryone which knowlage does not limited on 2 or 3 "editors"Jo0doe (talk) 21:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hiding the facts about miracle OUN (B) SS Generals and divisions using a stupid arguments – vandalism as is. Online source academic cited used in many historical works.
- Removal the facts about Bandenbekampfung mentioned here as operation BB agains UPA – falsification and vandalism
- Twisting and misusing a facts about “NKVD units dressed as UPA fighters” since “dressed” and posed as it’s two different actions. Moreover no data about “NKVD units committed atrocities against civilian population” but exist data on such facts with MGB special groups (but not units) and not to demoralize the civilian population as newspaper claims – but in order to perform a plan on captured OUN/UPA insurgent through fabricating the faked insurgents and units. Existed wording “NKVD units dressed as UPA fighters [54] and committed atrocities in order to demoralize the civilian population.[8]; among these NKVD units were those composed of former UPA members working for the NKVD” is perfect example of manipulation with facts in order to mislead visitors. While removal of full and exact story – it’s vandalism (blanking).
Jo0doe (talk) 14:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- The opinion that what you added is the "full and exact story" is your piriginal research and POV. Other sources state "NKVD units" so rather than use original research we state what the sources say. For example, Jeffrey Burd's (Harvard-affiliated historian at Northeastern University in Boston) lengthy article [38] about women in western Ukraine includes descriptions of brutal atrocities committed by UPA against women. You quoted him in these talk pages. So, he can hardly be described as a pro-UPA propagandist. Yet Burd writes:
"Following officially sanctioned procedures, Soviet policemen disguised themselves as rebels, then perpetrated atrocities in their name, hoping in this way to provoke distrust and antagonism between rebel units and the local population. In this context, gender violence was not an end in itself, but a tactical weapon that utilized women’s bodies to fight a wider conflict. Whether they were rapists in Soviet uniforms, petty officials in the local apparatus, or even members of Soviet spetsgruppy perpetrating acts of gender violence under orders, Soviet authorities did themselves play a critical role in the creation of an image of the enemy other that included not just Ukrainian men, but also Ukrainian women and children. The logic of Soviet institution building dictated a definition of the Ukrainian enemy that would justify violence against young and old, male and female."
Now, given Burd's lengthy descriptioon of UPA's atrocities, if he knew that the NKVD spetgruppe units were composed of ex-UPA members, he would have said so. Right?
- “MGB maskirovka units” “Soviet policemen” – this words reflect the overall quality of such “work” (but does not the facts which well referenced). Why – MGB has not “policemen” instead of MVD, maskirovka units – look like matryushka-balalayka while in documents mentioned “spets-boyivky”. One more note - TsDAHO, f. 1, op. 16, d. 68, ll. 10-17. For the text of the report and discussion of broader operational considerations, see J. Burds, “Agentura,” art. cit.: 129-130. – Interesting how this prominent sovietologist feet 7-pages of report text on 2 together with discussion? That’s why I pasted the information that matched the archival and other types of sources and does not use POV.
Jo0doe (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Nice example of your original research. I guess Jeffrey Burd is not an authority such as Jo0Doe. Quote academic sources please, wikipedia isn't the place for your original research. If you want, do the original research yourself, get your summary published in a peer reviewed journal, then place the results here with appropriate references to your published work.Faustian (talk) 03:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, some were, per your source, so I briefly included that information. As I stated, since this article is about UPA lengthy descripption are inappropriate in this article so placed that info that you added into a new article. Similarly, most concentration camp guards and VLasov's unit were composed of former SOviet soldiers. Yet we don't need lengthy description of concentration camp guard units and VLasov's army within the Soviet army article.
After I posted the hereftofore described passage and others from the same article, you dismissed Burd as a "grant-consuming Sovietologist" and then described his "wild imagination." A good example of your dishonest quotation from sources. You pasted the information that matched your POV, and ignored the rest.Faustian (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- Once again a perfect example of silly demagogy I not oppose the Burd with his wild imagination - but in order to be NPOV we should include WP:PSTS which you removed and provide only POV version of story. While I'm tried to use well sourced data with full citation of related info (exlude propaganda, imagination and demagogy)
- Actually your lengthy quotes support your POV. The fact is Soviet policemen, as cited my Burd, dressed as UPA and committed crimes, as did NKVD as per the other source cited (Wilson). Your source told us that some of those NKVD were former UPA. Fine - this info should be included. However based on the literature former UPA were not the only Soviets dressed as UPA who committed crimes against civilians. By writing a lot about the just that one group, you push your POV by adding too much emphasis on them.
- Either way, however, it is irrelevent. Because the article is about UPA not NKVD, such detail to the extent that we are talking about doesn't belong here, a sentence summary is enough. Likewise, I didn't include all the details from Burd's article about NKVD pretending to be UPA, either. I summarized everything in a sentence: "NKVD units dressed as UPA fighters [55] and committed atrocities in order to demoralize the civilian population.[8]; among these NKVD units were those composed of former UPA members working for the NKVD [56]. " And I moved the lengthy details that you added where it belonged, in a seperate article. Faustian (talk) 03:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyway would be good to see from you an explanation
- if stated September - why you write July ?
- if stated two SS divisions - you push simply divisions with plenty OR ?
The book stated SS divisions, Then it stated police. And then again, SS divisions. It stated both. The article should follow what the source says. Do you have a problem with accurate representation of what a source says?Faustian (talk) 03:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- if fact does not exist in the book - you write it WP and provide reference to not WP:V source ?
- And in fact what mentioned in Subtelnyy book - Ukrainian people (as you? initially include) or western Ukrainian people (as you finally update) Jo0doe (talk) 21:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
You are the one who had a problem with "Ukrainian people." Subtelny, I believe, was writing about Western Ukraine and so within that context "western Ukrainian people" seems appropriate. He did not, after state, among all of Ukraine's people or something specific such as that. If you disagree we could change it back.Faustian (talk) 03:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Also would be good to see an explanation of such edits by you [39] paramilitary forces fought under different cover organizations such as the 'Ukrainian Auxilary Police', the 'Bandera SB' (much feared "Security Services"), Does it mean deliberately including knowing for innacuracies - perfect example Bandera SB (so what about- UPA-SB?) to hide something (like 4-5 thousands of 'Ukrainian Auxilary Police' joined the UPA after OUN-SD command)?Jo0doe (talk) 22:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I assume, before we begin, you definitely need update Waffen-SS_divisions, List_of_German_divisions_in_World_War_II, List of Waffen SS units and provide reference for your new data to Krokhmaluk, Y. (1973) . UPA Warfare in Ukraine. New York: Vantage Press (Subtelnyy? Magoci?) because previous editors of mentioned page are POV and used nonacademic sources and not mentioned recognized by “mainstream scholars data” (of course you need to remove or hide something already existed) .
Definitely demagogy can be won only with demagogy, which I want not. Moreover I don’t plan to use a falsification of sources and sources falsification. Also would be interesting to know how handled a deliberately falsification.
- You do not "falsify" sources by lyiong about what they say. Instead you quote selectively from them, creating false impression through lying by omission. As among many examples you put into the article Koch's comment that UPA being inactive vs. the Germans, while deliberately ignoring details from the same source describing that inactivity as following a period of intense fighting. You seem to feel that this misuse of a source is acceptable, because your specific quote was correct. Sorry, such games are unacceptable.Faustian (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, you mean what WP accept and prefer falcifications and twisting and misuse a facts? One again I point you what "intense fighting" - based on OUN (B) sources (3 mirracle SS division, mythical Kolki battle ect) while Koch on German - which are most credible since it's not Volkischer Beobachter like Tys-Krochmalyuk. But as far as I can see from your wording mentioned below - history of WWII - thing out of your rest "prefection" - like "credibility" and "thousands of lines I have written on wikipedia"Jo0doe (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I was referring to this source: [40]. Your, unhealthy perhaps, obsession with Krokhmaliuk is another matter.
- When making an edit to the article, you took one quote from chapter 14 [58], from page 189, in which Koch stated in November 13th that there was little anti-German activity from UPA. This one quote probably served your POV-pushing by painting the picture that UPA wasn't really fighting the Germans. But from the same source, page 187, it was mentioned that the Germans were heavily attacking UPA with planes and tanks. On 188, it stated that in fall 1943 UPA had 47 battles with the Hitlerites and 125 incidents with self-defence bush groups. During these conflcits in Fall 1943, UPA lost 414 men while the Germans lost 1500 soldiers. Page 188 also stated that the Germans failed to destroy UPA and that indeed its numbers continued to grow. Thisis the intense fighting. It succeeded in bringing down UPA's activity level vs. the Germans. Last paragraph of page 188 stated that both Germans and UPA saw no need to continue the fight against each other, and UPA's actions against the Germans largely ceased. That's the full story. You just pulled that one quote out of context, that in November 1943 the Ukrainians were quiet. A good example lying by ommission. Faustian (talk) 23:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Once ( mean 4-6) more, (thus I explain you a this case as of 09:01, 29 January 2008, but you still “dressed as beginner ”). I’ve made full and exact quotation from well referenced WP:V WP:PSTS German source which not included in article (and currently excluded from article) because it reflect how lie of OUN(B) about extensive battle with numerous SS divisions. It’s not a report about current situation with UPA, as you would like to believe (Ukrainian people case) – it’s general report about situation in Reichskommissariat Ukraine for passed time – it’s published and available in WP:PSTS in full. So I don’t want to spend to explain what 2+2=4.
You continue to hide the info what “Germans were heavily attacking UPA with planes and tanks” it’s OUN(B) info – which extensively mentioned and/or referenced in source. While you don’t like to cite summary of chapter located at p.199 – OUN and UPA struggle on anti-German front does not reach a priority direction in strategy of Ukrainian movement and has a temporary nature… This general orientation limited combat action of UPA against German to forms of “self-defense for people” … And final sentence – “In general, OUN and UPA actions on anti-German front does not has any important role in Ukrainian territory liberation from Nazi occupation.” So – what is an explanation of all your efforts on facts (SS-divisions, generals, etc.) removal rather then I am only seeking to make this article on a controversial topic as nuetral and objective as possible, something that Party 1 seems to be opposed to doing Faustian (talk) 17:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Interesting, but you’ve removed
Also there no “BB” operation were conducted specially against UPA [1],
- Quote the page number in the source where this is stated. Or is this phrase your OR?Faustian (talk) 15:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
and as for term "Bandenbekampfung" history in general - In August 1942, Hitler directed all German state institutions to assist Heinrich Himmler, the chief of the SS and the German police, in eradicating armed resistance in the newly occupied territories of Eastern Europe and Russia. The directive for "combating banditry" (Bandenbekampfung) became the third component of the Nazi regime's three-part strategy for German national security, with genocide (Endlosung der Judenfrage, or "the Final Solution of the Jewish Question") and slave labor (Erfassung, or "Registration of Persons to Hard Labor") being the better-known others. The absence of “Bandenbekampfung” in Generalbezirk Wolhynien-Podolien reflects the German maps [41] and reports.
The above doesn't contradict anything in the article.Faustian (talk) 15:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
without adding this chapter to WP (as you did with NKVD dressed as UPA). German map speak by themselves and cost more then tones of OUN(B) propaganda. So, I assume you don’t like to have this info not in article, nor in WP – because it dismiss OUN(B) lie and propaganda. Once again logic and mathematics as also a well established facts it not OR as you would like to demagogically replay to my info.
Also still, what about Krochmalyuk case – your last sourcing on it dated 28 January? Any explanation on “You "conveniently" ignored the statement published by OUN in July 1941, (pg.90),” Page 90 In a letter from August 29, 1941 froom Stetsko to Bandera,” etc? Or you assume such as Krochmalyuk, also? Jo0doe (talk) 15:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Write in Russian if it helps; I'll probably understand your Russian than your English.Faustian (talk) 15:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Isn’t not you: Banderivtsi is the colloquial word for members of OUN-M (versus their rivals Melnykivtsi). There was overlap between UPA and OUN-B but they're not the same thingJo0doe (talk) 18:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't remember writing it, and I doubt that I did, but I don't remember all of the thousands of lines I have written on wikipedia. Assuming a spelling error (Banderivtsi being OUN-B rather than what you wrote, OUN-M) the phrase is correct, however. What's your problem with it?Faustian (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- also who add this stupid OR - Such hostilities ended by late spring 1944 due to much of the disputed territory no longer being under German occupation, and to negotiations between UPA and the GermansJo0doe (talk) 15:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Vandalism?
Answer for (JoOoe)This article was getting hard to understand for a reader who is not extremely familiar with eastern European history. If you read the changes - most important details were re-arranged in a more organized manner with abbreviations defined when they are first used in the article.
Terms such as "Vandalism" are not helpful - most are readability edit. I do not understand "Propaganda" no new facts were added - none deleted. Reverting edits Bobanni (talk) 10:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- See examples above - you mislead a visitors throough POV version of history by OUN (B)Jo0doe (talk) 14:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
UPA at military glory
Mr. Credible state Party 1's POV is that the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) had minimal conflicts with Germans. In his direct words, "UPA participation the Genocide of Polish community (it was only (and sole) large scale military action by UPA in 1943-44)". This has been refuted in numerous sources statements throughout the article.
Mr. Liar explain: 1. “numerous sources statements throughout the article” – missed words “own UPA” and phrase “but not German nor Soviet nor Polish sources does not reflect large scale military operation of UPA against German (see also map) [42]
- Your link does not work. Information about UPA fighting against Germans is found in Magosci's Ukraine: a History (UPA fought pitched battles with Germans and Soviets over Carpathian mountain passes) and from this book written by the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences : [43] which stated pg. 188 fall 1943 UPA lost 414, Germans 1500, among others. Do you have secret information that Magosci and the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences are UPA members? Ah, you will say that they based their statements on UPA sources. Well, that's your OR, as is your claim that Magosci and the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences historians don't know what they are doing, so no place for such claims here.Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- For link - please use google and http://www.ushmm.org/ Bandentatigkeit im Bereich des W Bfh. Ukraine vom 21.6.-30.6.43. [Photograph #59475]
Unfortunately, I prefer more academic publications rather then Manga for Canadian wood-cutters.
- Okay, thanks for confirming that you consider Magocsi, chair of the Ukrainian Studies Department of the University of Toronto (more biographical details here: [44], "Manga for Canadian woodcutters."Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The credibility of “Magochi Carpathian mountain passes” reflect what this myth does not included in Ukrainian Academy of Sciences historians as also SS-divisions battle of 1944. You again “forgot” about p.199 , and what fought pitched battles referred to sources (you probably cant able see small digits). As regards Ukrainian Academy of Sciences historians you accidentally omitted rest data provided by them – in order to have a balanced picture – see p.189. and later.
- You are the only one conveniently forgetting pages.Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please remember me - like your July at p.90?
Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
2. it was only (and sole) large scale military action by UPA in 1943-44 – why? It’s easy – mathematic! We have military formation which (accordingly to current ranking in article)
- a) UPA allegedly (own claim) inflict losses (which kind of it not stated) of 4,5+ Germans during “intensive” battles of 1943 + ~1 K in “fierce fighting with SS divisions in 1944” – total 5,5 b).
- That's a small number compared to the Soviet figures of 500,000 Germans allegedly killed by Soviet partisans in Belorus alone :[45].Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC):
- This article about UPA but not about Soviet Partisans. As regards to figures – see what brave OUN fighters while they served in 201 Wehrmacht Division lost 49 killed and 40 wounded only from May till October 1942 from total 650? personnel? And Soviet partisan’s actions in Belorussia well documented in SD (SS) and also in Wehrmacht documents, while UPA – not – really interesting isn’t?Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- From the article: "According to German Eastern Front General Ernst Kostring, UPA fighters "fought almost exclusively against German administrative agencies, the German police and the SS in their quest to establish an independent Ukraine controlled by neither Moscow or Germany...In a debriefing before U.S. authorities in 1948, a Committee of former German commanders on the Eastern front claimed that "the Ukrainian Nationalist movement formed the strongest partisan movement in the East, with the exception of the Russian Communists." Interesting, isn't it?Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- From the reference - cited in Sodol, Petro R., 1987, UPA: They Fought Hitler and Stalin, New York: Committee for the World Convention and Reunion of Soldiers in the UIA, pg. 58 - I assume it same quality as few SS-divisions at Kolki - WP:V and WP:PSTS - you falsify data too many times to trust you here Jo0doe (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- From the article: "According to German Eastern Front General Ernst Kostring, UPA fighters "fought almost exclusively against German administrative agencies, the German police and the SS in their quest to establish an independent Ukraine controlled by neither Moscow or Germany...In a debriefing before U.S. authorities in 1948, a Committee of former German commanders on the Eastern front claimed that "the Ukrainian Nationalist movement formed the strongest partisan movement in the East, with the exception of the Russian Communists." Interesting, isn't it?Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, since 2003 America has lost about 4,000 dead in Iraq [46] in four years, a similar number to what Germans lost to UPA in one year. I guess there is no large scale military conflict in Iraq. UPA caused about half as many casualties to the Germans in one year, as Chechens caused the Russians during the first Chechen war in 2.5 years (7,500). No large scale military conflict there, either, right?Faustian (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- b) killed and hanged 30 676 soviet citizens amongst them more then 20000 of civilians (only 2590 was more or less armed) and “only” 1864 NKVD-MVD, 687 NKGB-MGB 241 communist party leaders, 205 komsomol leaders. As regards to 3199 - Soviet Army, Border Guards, and NKVD-MVD troops most 75-80% of UPA victims are Soviet Army personnel in 1944 - early 1945,
- According to Soviet data. CIA estimated 35,000. Recall the Soviet claim in this article that during one conflict the Soviets lost 11, UPA 2,000 fighters.Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- CIA estimates? Like WMD in Iraq? Or like Cuba case in 1959? Despite this explanation of reasons for wasting US state budget funds (they spend a lot on faked army- puppet created by MGB – you can read more about it at same Ukrainian Academy of Sciences historians work ). All victims of OUN/UPA for 1945-1953 well filed and documented. Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- CIA estimates? Like WMD in Iraq? Or like Cuba case in 1959? Despite this explanation of reasons for wasting US state budget funds (they spend a lot on faked army- puppet created by MGB – you can read more about it at same Ukrainian Academy of Sciences historians work ). All victims of OUN/UPA for 1945-1953 well filed and documented. Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Yup, no answer.Faustian (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Jo0doe (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
-despite the OUN(B) lie inserted in this article - “UPA tried to avoid clashes with the regular units of the Soviet military because many of them were ethnic Ukrainians and were seen as a source of recruits into UPA”.
- c) UPA and Western Ukraine's Poles - range from 100,000 to 500,000 of civilians ( I assume truth
MBR>laid something behind)
Any comments? Any "murdered ukrainian magazines" in 1920-30 for justify?Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- d) UPA and Western Ukraine's Jews – as far as I know in western Ukraine and occupied territories of Ukraine Jews was exterminated in 1941-1942 and the number was definitely more than 1 million. And, accordingly to survived persons remembrance, such actions was conducted with great assistance of Shuma from western Ukraine (1941 OUN (B) General Instruction “ UPA Fights and activities during the war” – really interesting thing).
- I hope you don't think that UPA killed 1 million Jews?Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- See – example why - The Totenkopfverbände was to become one of the elite SS divisions, but from the start they were among the first executors of a policy of systematic extermination.
UPA in large extend formed from directly involved in Holocaust and Soviet POW mass murdering – objection? Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Prove it. But your proofs still won't go in the article, cause it will be OR. For that, find a source please. Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- We've a plenty of Link at http://www.ushmm.org/ and stories also. I'll not prove - simple provide a fact - so every one can choose a themselvesJo0doe (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Prove it. But your proofs still won't go in the article, cause it will be OR. For that, find a source please. Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
And – surprise – we’ve 4-5K of OUN members who had joined the police, taken advantage of the German training they had received and later reinforced with rest all kind ofOUN remains from Nazi service.
- We were talking about UPA in 1943-1944, and now you make allegations about OUN and police in 1941-1942. "Demogogy as is," right?Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
So I expect Faustian objection – no – no they collected stamps and grow flowers and prepared to war with Russian communist, while Germans bad-guys does not allow them to serve in Shuma and do it with extremely rage – so only 4-5 K freedom fighters able to , taken advantage of the German training.
- Before making claims you should find which particular police units were involved in ant-Jewish activities and then find the number of people from those units who joined UPA. Otherwise it's just your wishful speculation. Good luck.Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well, find a source that says that those specific areas that were bereft of police when OUN members deserted, also involved mass killings by police. If you find it in a legitimate source, it certainly belongs in the article. Unlike you I do not ignore "inconvenient" information.Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I assume current ranking are wrong – same if the D-day article will be started with defeating of one of the Nazi- collaborators regiment somewhere in France.
- If that regiment was the first one engaged in battle in D-Day it should come first.Faustian (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which conflict began earlier. The desertion or the killings of civilians?Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- See Massacres of Poles in Volhynia for details - and note what desertion started March 18 till 10 of April - moreover at this time they ot UPA they only deserters. ObjectionJo0doe (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Which conflict began earlier. The desertion or the killings of civilians?Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Objection? (Faustian, please don’t put OR or pages numbers requests ( as expected)– I’ve it – as you can see on my already provided sources) Jo0doe (talk) 16:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please use civil language - Name calling does only weakens your arguments Bobanni (talk) 17:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Bobanni, I think you missed several importants terms of discussion - see below:
- The writer clearly has a very poor grasp of the English language Faustian (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2007
- Do you think what I said is wrong? It's simply a fact. I have a poor (indeed, no) grasp of the Chinese language. Is it name calling?Faustian (talk) 04:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- I prefer to use such language to assess what for users most important - my facts or my languageJo0doe (talk) 07:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- My multiple edits over the last couple of years speak to my credibility Faustian (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2007
- You lie by omission Faustian (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2008
Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- So, I assume, what accordingly to Faustian mathematics skill for WP: 100000-500000 less then 5500 as also 20000 less then 5500. Splendid, moreover I’ve found an interesting info what 10 of soviet woman-snipers killed more then claimed post war for 20000 of brave Ukrainian man – freedom fighters during “period of intensive fighting with Germans” but not Wehrmacht.Jo0doe (talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
UPA's war against Germany or partially virgin
Really interesting OR by Bobbani. But what facts we’ve: - OUN (B) it’s not a state to declare a war, while at same time UPA is not an army to commit war. Moreover – things proclaimed by OUN(B) at Third Great Extraordinary Meeting of OUN in august 1943 was spelled as struggle/ warfare (boro`tba) against German Imperialism – pity – no war nor Germany. Moreover – “after extensive and fierce fighting” with German Imperialism during end of August – September 1943, OUN(B)-UPA started a reconciliation process as of 1 of October 1943 (see p.189-192 of Chapter 14). Even more – “As a rule the UPA did not attack units of the Wehrmacht” which was a main armed force (80-90% of combat capability) of Nazi Germany. Really interesting , war but not war, but not with army and not with state – it’s like partially virgin – I see . Regarding ref # 13 http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-08.html A question – does UPA exist in 1941? Does mentioned actions has a mere success? Moreover what about Ukrainian legion in terms of “All functionaries of the Bandera Movement” – as far as I know Shukhevych and Co signed contract with Nazi – and noone from them were not “liquidated” as also many rest (like Klyachkivskyy, Ruban, etc). Oops – I forgot Reichskommissariat Ukraine does not include Ukraine- Mainland – Galicia or if exactly spoken General Government thus such actions was nominated only to territories were OUN(B) has only few representatives, well known to Nazi – since they coming with them. Jo0doe (talk) 17:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Bobanni for this [47], you confirmed my concerns – 25-35 K of personnel – less then in 2 SS Waffen-SS_divisions – “large organized body”?
You mean Army as Irish Republican Army ? Or ROA – Russian Liberation Army? – or – definitely relevant example National Army of Democratic Kampuchea – (use Google if you not find info about this at http://www.infoukes.com/history/. Jo0doe (talk) 10:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
RfC
Concerns of others
Bobbani in order to get a exact answers you need to put reasonable questions. Probably you forgot what that is UPA talk page but not OUN – also which kind of “Ukrainian Nationalist” – under Bandera? Under Melnik? Under UNR? Or Skoropadskyy? Only Soviet – really? So how we can call military formation which brutally killed and hanged more then 50K of Polish civilians (children also in great number), 20K of Soviet (mainly Ukrainians); composed- on significant percent -from German –Ukrainian auxiliary police 1941-42 members widely involved in Holocaust Ukrainian territory. Regarding their role in liberation of Ukraine – you can read summary at p.199 [48] – it modern Ukrainian historians statements – not Soviet.
- Your statement above is based on your POV that the only liberation could be by Soviet Army. The summary confirms what other sources say, that UPA tried not to interfere with Germans fighting the Soviets and instead focused on the prevention of the exploitation of the Ukrainian people by the Germans. Remember the quote by the German general Ernst Kostring that UPA "fought almost exclusively against German administrative agencies, the German police and the SS in their quest to establish an independent Ukraine controlled by neither Moscow or Germany."Faustian (talk) 14:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
However, I assume, they role understated by Soviet historians – since they mortally wounded talented soviet commander Nikolai Vatutin – which Stalingrad, Battle of Kursk, Kiev honors undisputable, they provide intelligence data for Nazi during winter-summer soviet offence at Ukraine. Thus they provide significant assistance to Nazi and if they – who knows the fate of 1 Panzer Army may be a different one, Warsaw will be reached earlier and with more powerful soviet army group etc. etc. Any way issues with UPA “Sturbahnfuehrer SS General Platle” and “General Hintzler” definitely need clarification, as also Police Divisions and 7-10 SS divisions which was retreated by brave UPA.
- Hintzler was mentioned by Ukrainian Academy of Sciences book [49], page 184: "commasnder of the SS and police brigadenfuehrer SS Hintzler". I suppose that you Jo0doe are a more knowledgable and credible source than the YUkrainian Academy of Sciences?Faustian (talk) 14:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Good, good you starting to read book before make an WPedia input. So – in order to be correct – the name of SS-Brigadefьhrer und Generalmajor der Polizei is Hintze, Kurt, but interesting what he was a chief in Litauen - Ostland und RuЯland-Nord. So, it’s no surprise for Kentiy (prominent author of this chapter) before he was a prominent communist now he a prominent nationalist – so what will be in the future. Thus he well known for historical mystification in desired direction– so I simply check document which he referred – what exactly mentioned in it. Jo0doe (talk) 18:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Your OR, as usual. We are developing a whole pantheum of sources that can't compare to Jo0Doe, according to Jo0Doe. Professors afficilated with Harvard, professors at the University of Toronto, the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, none of whom compare to the incredible Jo0Doe.Faustian (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
So assume – you state what ethnical cleaning resulted 50-100K of death it’s Polish POV? You need to read more recent documents – for example - Polska-Ukraina: trudnepytania. O.9.MaterialyIX X mijdzynarodowego seminarium historycznego “Stosunkipolsko-ukraiaeskie w latach IIwojny swiatowej”.—Warszawa,6—10 listopada 2001.—Warszawa,2002.—455s
- No one is saying that except you. It's your strawman argument.Faustian (talk) 14:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
UPA assisted Nazis in the Holocaust - please note what you twist the facts – UPA composed on significant percent from German –Ukrainian auxiliary police 1941-42 members widely involved in Holocaust at Ukrainian territory (and not only) and commanded by persons which were amongst commander of Nazi - collaborationists which accidently stayed in same time and in same place were Holocaust actions executed (Ukraine in 1941, Belarus in 1942) – but there none survive (excluding Nazi and collaborationists) to prove or dismiss the brave story of Ukrainian legion and it commanders.
- Typical example of your twisting the facts. UPA did not exist when most Jews were killed. "Demogogy as is."
- Correct statement would be, Ukrainian police assisted in Holocaust. Many Ukrainian police deserted and joined UPA; some of whom may have assisted in Holocaust. Now, your numbers (using low UPA estimates) claim that 1/2 initially and 1/4 eventually of UPA members had been deserters from police. So, by your own "facts", 1/2 of early UPA and 1/4 of eventual UPA membership may have assisted in the Holocaust before they joined UPA.
- You twist this and state "UPA assisted in Holocaust."
Probably you mismatch http://www.infoukes.com with NPOV, academic and third party reliable sources.Jo0doe (talk) 08:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Nonsense, but “well referenced” “facts” in article
“several thousand soldiers (only one third of his men were ethnic Ukrainians)” –several mean 2 or 9? Which one third?
- That was cited in Subtelny. You already claim to know more than the UKrainian Academy of Sciences (see previous section) and MAgosci, so it's little wonder you make this claim too.Faustian (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
autumn of 1944, UPA forces enjoyed virtual freedom of movement over an area 160,000 kilometers in size and home to over 10 million people and had established a shadow government
So – UPA moved several time across Earth through straight line? Virtual freedom amongst 20 NKVD divisions (200K+ personnel)? Or even against 1 and 9 brigades (28K+) which actually existed?
- Your OR. Those facts were from cited sources. Indeed, you are the one who originally introduced this source to us. Interesting, that when the source in question described UPA brutality towards women it was a good source. But when it stated the above it ceased to be a good source. I guess, for you, a source's worth corresponds to how closely it matches your POV.Faustian (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Home to over 10 million people? – estimated population number for western Ukraine for that time approximately no more than 5 million (Holocaust, Nazi deportation, war mobilization, UPA ethnical cleaning, removal a civil population from frontline etc). UHVR – is not “shadow government”.
So – it’s reflect the knowledge level of author about thematic described.
- Your OR and POV, as has been proven here, the OR and POV of a very biased and dishonest contributor.Faustian (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Also in article exist fights with ghost SS divisions and/or never existed police divisions under command of mythical SS Generals.
- Yes, according to you the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences deals with myths (see previous section discussion).Faustian (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Accidentally but mentioned above presumably inserted and referenced by someone who enrich Wpedia with following “facts” On July 26, 1944, near the village of Nedilna, the UPA defeated another German division, and captured its entire supply column, including many officers and soldiers
In November 1943, UPA battle groups Black Forest and Makivka defeated 12 German battalions supported by the German air-force, in a battle over control of UPA-held territory.
In May and July 1944, two more attempts by the Germans to capture Carpathian mountain passes were repulsed. The latter victory involved the defeat of two German divisions supported by artillery – all honestly and precisely referenced to Krokhmaluk, Y. (1973). UPA Warfare in Ukraine. New York: Vantage Press.
Interesting but later was found what there no such book was published in 1973. Moreover – there no such fact mentioned in book with same name and same author but published in other publishing house and in other year. Jo0doe (talk) 10:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- Probably I cited it wrong (I have only read to page 200 so far, to confirm) and have not objected to the info being hidden until I confirm. Your pattern of edits, however, confirms your dishonesty rather than propensity for the occasional mistake. Faustian (talk) 14:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
this is boring —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.157.11 (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Where is Volynia
Most articles on Volynia including Wikipedia locate Volynia in western Ukraine. The UPA article need to give the reader who does not know where Volynia an approximate location. Bobanni (talk) 05:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Vandalism
Dear Faustian and Bobbani - your actions described as WP:Vandalism - blanking. I assume it's same story as with Independance 30 of June 1941 - OUN dont like to show full version of Ukrainian Independance - with Great Fuhrer and Fight with Great Germany to final win Jo0doe (talk) 17:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Actually all referenced info that you added was incorporated into the article by me, not blanked. Otherwise your vandalism is being reverted. Please do not create seperate sections with your generally unreferenced info. We already have a German, and a Soviet section - why the seperate "history" section from which you remove info from the appropriate ones? Please do not try to destroy the article's readibility, you will be reverted for doing so.Faustian (talk) 17:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- You continuously remove and modify to OUN POV many my edits. You remove a lot of well referenced information (WP does not require to put ref on every word). You put everything to one section (Germany) falsify and/or deliberately twist the full story. You selectively omit pages which you simply not like – you prefer to limit UPA story to “UPA war with German” version only by including in it misleading statement and put all story in OUN POV way.
- Is that why I put the massacre of Poles into the lead of the article? Dishonesty about me.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- No later then 20 of March UPA submit an order “to form Ukrainian national army from policeman, Cossacks and local Ukrainians oriented for OUN(B) and UNR”. Such formation in large extent include a forcible acquire of other then Bandera groups of Ukrainian nationalist. Actually you’ve removed:
- I removed info that was unreferenced and thrown into the article not in its place.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- May, 1943 General Command (Головна команда,ГК, військова Влада) of UPA started) their work under command of Klyachkivskiy.
- In June 1943 established military gendarmerie service of UPA – UPA-SB.
- In July 1943 in Galicia begins formation of first UNS (Ukrainian National Self-defense) detachment which should oppose to Soviet Partisans, by end of 1943 – beginning of 1944 UNS transformed into UPA units.
- By August, 18 1943 decree Klyachkivskiy disband Ukrainian People's Revolutionary Army and some of their remains forcibly absorbed by UPA, some commanders were killed.
- In November 1943 adopted new structure of UPA - created Main Military Headquarter and three area (group} commands UPA-West (based on UNS), UPA-North and UPA-South. Tactical units were: brigades, kurins (batallions), sotnya (companies), choty (platoons) and royi (squads). There exist three military schools for low-level command staff. Also established a system of military honors – Cross of different grade.
- This, obviously, should have been put into the UPA organization section. Just because you are too lazy to work with the article doesn't mean you can ruin it by placing any information you find in your own section. And then complain about vandalism when it is removed.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
From January –March 1944 UPA in many areas started cooperation with Wehrmacht. In March OUN/UPA representatives negotiated with SS and SD officials.
Not later than beginning of May, 1944 OUN submitted instructions to "switch the struggle, which was conducted against Germans, completely into a struggle against the Soviets."
- The above info is in the article already; it is not removed. Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- In July 1944 UPA and OUN established Ukrainian General Liberation Council (Українська головна визвольна рада – УГВР). First meeting of UGLC conducted 11-14 of July 1944.
- In August 1945 UPA units transferred under command of regional centers of OUN. [12] [13]
- During Great Blockade by MVD troops from January 11 till April 10 1946 UPA in Carpathian region suffered main losses and from this time end it existence as combat unit.” [14]
- This was not removed but placed intot he section on UPA vs. Soviets.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- At spring 1946 OUN/UPA established contacts with Intelligence services of France, Great Britain and USA. [15]
- This was not removed but placed into article about UPA vs. Soviets.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- On May 30, 1947 the Main Ukrainian Liberation Council (Головна Визвольна Рада) adopted the date of October 14, 1942 as the official day for celebrating UPA's creation.
- September 3, 1949 R.Shukhevych issued an order, accordingly with the decision of UGLC, about liquidation of UPA units and headquarters as combat and managing structures. All their personnel should be joining the OUN (B) undergrounds.
all exist in paper version of Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and Historical Magazine - already mentioned as ref here. What wrong?
- Well, your numerous lies about things being removed when they were not.Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Accordingly to your vision – this data is vandalism? Please indicate a type? But this modification – “Sixty percent of UPA's membership was from Galicia and 30% from Volhynia and Podolia” from original version
However, accordingly to one of UPA commander data referred to 1944, UPA predominantly composed from peasants (poor and moderate in wealth) from western Ukraine (60% from Galicia and 30% from in Volhynia ad Podillya) [2] So you remove composed from peasants (poor and moderate in wealth) and one of UPA commander data referred to 1944 – thus falsify the data by omission of “non” desirable for POV data.
- The article already stated that UPA was composed 60% of peasants. If you want to include welath, why not? It seems trivial, but if you insist, include it. But you want to mention peasants twice. Why?Faustian (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Also please provide Nuremberg Trial direct info but not POV infoukis. Interpretation (moreover you mentioned it twice – since it’s info existed at first section of article) it' not inline with WP:PSTS policy. Jo0doe (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
NPOV structure for Article
About military formation which brutally killed and hanged more then 50K of Polish civilians (children also in great number), 20K of Soviet (mainly Ukrainians); composed- on significant percent -from German –Ukrainian auxiliary police 1941-42 members widely involved in Holocaust Ukrainian territory. Because it will be easy to access and assess the exact info
- UPA's Background
- UPA’s History
- Section above is reduntant as it is described in the body of the article.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Organization of UPA
- UPA -SB
- UPA Commanders
- UPA’s military capability timeline
- Areas of UPA operational activity
- UPA and European Jews “final solution”
- UPA did not exist when most Jews were killed and so UPA was not involved in the Holocaust. This is your POV-pushing of Soviet myths. UPA did save Jewish families, however. Correct statement would be, Ukrainian police assisted in Holocaust. Many Ukrainian police deserted and joined UPA; some of whom may have assisted in Holocaust. Now, your numbers (using low UPA estimates) claim that 1/2 initially and 1/4 eventually of UPA members had been deserters from police. So, by your own "facts", 1/2 of early UPA and 1/4 of eventual UPA membership may have assisted in the Holocaust before they joined UPA. You twist this and state "UPA assisted in Holocaust."
- The Section on Jews is important because it is popular among myth-makers, but it is a minor aspect of UPA's history so its place at the end of the article, following the history, seems appropriate.Faustian (talk) 23:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- UPA and Poles Ethnic cleaning
- When was the first documented UPA/OUN (not Ukrainian peasants or police, but specifically UPA/OUN) involvement killing of Polish civilians? First UPA attack against Germans was February 7th (at least), though they were preparing for anti-German activity earlier. Polish civilians were being killed in late 1942, but I haven't seen evidence that it was done by UPA. The document by the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences [51], pg. 242, states that mass murders began in February-March 1943 and that they began in areas where Taras Bulba-Borovets' UPA/Polissian Sich was operating. Not the OUN-UPA of this article. The same source states that deserting police began killing Polish civilians at the end of MArch and beginning of April. Moreover, the wiki article cites Soviet patisans as stating that nationalist murder of Polish civilians began in April 1943. So the evidence so far tells us that the anti-Polish actions began after UPA's initial clashes with the Germans.Faustian (talk) 22:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- I do not oppose moving this section further up to reflect the chronological order of events, but this should be moved between the German and the Soviet sections for now. Placing crimes by non-UPA into the UPA article just serves your POV.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- UPA actions against soviet partisans
- UPA actions against Germans and allies
- Desertion and anti-German activites came before anti-partisan activites.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- UPA collaboration with German and allies
- UPA actions against Soviet Army
- post WWII UPA actions against Soviet
- post WWII UPA actions against Poles
- Aftermath
Faustian and colleagues, please don’t spoil your times on comment to my structure.
- Actually some of the proposed changes make sense. However your order is too compromised by your POV. NPOV should follow the chronological order.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I expect, what would be better if you shall update Ukrainian People's Revolutionary Army with WP:V and WP:RS WP:PSTS which I’ve already provide to you 2 month ago. Also I expect what WP articles Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists can see an info from p.63 [52], p.85 (para 3 from Independence Act) [53], about “freedom fighters” origin, policy – “lets facts speaks about themselves”. Would be nice to mention in previously mentioned article and UVO article wording from Memorandum as of August 14 1941 [54].
- Go for it. Make those edits, and the articles will be fixed afterward.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you in advance regarding your POV about my “POV” – but I’m simply fact fanatic which always read books till end even if it more 200 pages and without pictures. Jo0doe (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- You also find only those facts convenient for your POV-pushing and use them dishonestly. As has been documented on this page. But after all that, the article after it has been fixed following your attempts to ruin it with your POV-pushing, is better than before you arrived, so I suppose you are useful.Faustian (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I ask to not split my info.
1.Mentioned military formation has a has a timeline and military capability – it must be easily assessable and accessible – rather then spread over the article. WP – it’s not a quiz. 2. That’s what I’ve spoken 2 month ago, but there should be mention on which based such allegation – because OUN/UPA in most common situation used together (actually there a tiny period of their even nominally separation). Such allegation based on similar WWII principle with SS-units. Ok – “end” would be a “right place” for “Jew-Communist-Bolsheviks” extensively exterminated by “well trained policemen” – However would be logical to mention such info in aftermath – because in modern world rare case when Nazi collaborators posed themselves as “liberators” and “ WWII resistance movement”. 3. Please see UPA-(B-B) section for more – you again not read a book in full. And once again about UPA – there no UPA/OUN(B) before April 1943 and there no ordered by OUN-SD head commanders action against Germans before 17-21 of February Congress you again omit footnote ref of info origin. Moreover – there no “sotnya” in Jan 7 1943 – such large formation appeared several months later. April report mean what action already taken place – thus in April report described situation in March (it mentioned in full version of it). You once again mixed German service deserters with UPA insurgents (actually they became such only when they reached their destination). 4. Same case with Poles – UPA already have some combat ready units (see OUN-SD decision in Dec 1942) – which tried to act against soviet partisan – and have mere success against small units or peashooters behind front-line. Once again – see UPA commanders vision.Jo0doe (talk) 10:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Facts –
- “Both OUN factions created their own special forces units, named "Roland" and "Nachtigall"”, or Brandenburg-800 battalions? Moreover Roland formed not only with OUN(M) but on great extent from UNR.
- on June 30, 1941, the OUN-B proclaimed Ukraine's independence in Lviv – missed arrived with Germans and Ukraine under Great Hitler possessions (para 3 of Declaration).
- “A couple of days later both Bandera and Stetsko were imprisoned and sent to Sachsenhausen concentration camp” – mean called to Berlin to resolve “Independence” issue, and mean putted into special block of camp together with rest “useful” for Nazi political leaders, they can able to leave it and correspond with OUN at Ukraine till they was released by Germans. You call this “lie by omission” Isn’t ? Once again facts which OUN (B) omit to lie and propaganda proposes. Jo0doe (talk) 10:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Death caused by the Treponema pallidum spirochete ? Or they exterminated by camp anti-
Fascist groups as Nazi- collaborationists ? Jo0doe (talk) 09:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This is certainly interesting, but a little strange of a topic for its own encyclopedia article. Someone has requested it be merged with this one, is there a reason why it is at a seperate article? I would think merging it here would be alright. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 04:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Agee with you Ostap – it should be merged – but Faustian will be against – because myth will be ruined.
Also it’s quite complex issue with that numerous “special” units belonged to 4 different Authorities. But they can - and must be - distinct. Also we should note what “NKVD units dressed as UPA fighters” it’s a media summoned issue – actually there few of UPA-units dressed in distinct from normal dress of that time – rest dressed accordingly to available goods (don’t forget – it’s post WWII time). Actually we’ve units formed from surrendered OUN members under control of NKVD – mid 1944- end of 1945, from 1946 they used under MVD and in late 1946 – mid 1947 transferred to MGB. There no actual data of their atrocities against civil population (crime actions – yes but no atrocities) in 1945-46. But then they transferred to MGB – they ordered to be more%