Talk:Wakefield/Archives/2015

"Most of the windows at the front of the station are boarded-up, and the pub opposite, "The Wakefield Arms", has stood derelict for over twenty years"

, I used to goto Jazz Night at the wakefield arms after college, 20 years ago i would have been 10! This pub's not been closed that long.

Confusion

Is this article just for the City or the entire council area? I thought it was the former, therefore the references to Castleford, Pontefract etc at the bottom of the article need to be removed77.100.142.199 22:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes this is correct - City of Wakefield (that is the council district) has its own page, and so do Pontefract and Castleford. In light of this I've removed the content about P & C and parked it below in case someone finds it's gone and wants to incorporate it into their respective articles. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 09:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Pontefract

• Pontefract GI - Pontefract hospital has embarked on a £311m redevelopment which will also see Wakefields Pinderfields hospital rebuilt, Pontefract Will re-open in 2009 and Pinderfields in 2010, the original hospitals are still open during redevelopment

• NEW College - Pontefract NEW College is continuously redeveloping to keep it in the top 10% of colleges in the UK.

Castleford

• Tigers Stadium - The replacement of the Castleford Tigers Stadium has begun in Glasshouten, in which a new hotel, offices and stadium will be built along side the current Xscape complex in Freeport.

• THE CASTLEFORD PROJECT - A regeneration of Castleford town and the area has begun supported by Wakefield Met Council, C4 Television & Yorkshire Forward.

Vandalism

Is there any evidence that Simon McKelvey was the first man to wrestle a bear. I can find o evidence via Google that this statement is true

Nor can I, not from any source in fact. Removed the Simon Mckelvey bit twice now, the most recent time it was also offensive, "Simon McKelvey - Really did fight bears, you cunt", well, it's offensive or the editor just missed an O out of my name. Countdiso 03:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Another revert due to bear's, removing this "*Robin Hood - Outlaw, his fight with the bear being commemorated in the song "George a Green" ", Countdiso 01:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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WAYNO_LEGEND fancies Leanne Barnes (the 'fittist girl in town'), but Wayno should be more creative in expressing his affections, maybe learn to spell so he can get a job and woo her more effectively, and note that while editors may like grafitti in some places we don't like it scrawled randomly on our Wikipedia pages - and we will see it and remove it. Visctrix 11:46, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Diagram

Why was this removed? Mr. Jones 22:29, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

<table border=1 cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" align="right" width=200> <tr><td colspan=2 align=center bgcolor="#ff9999">'''Wakefield''' <br>''shown within [[West Yorkshire]]'' <tr><td colspan=2 align=center>[[Image:WYorks-Wakefield.png]]</td></tr> </table>

Wakefield shown within West Yorkshire

This image will have been removed because it shows the metropolitan borough, which is discussed in a seperate article.--NicholasJones 17:27, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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Discussion of City & District vs. merged pages

There is currently a discussion on Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_Subdivisions, discussing whether it is better to have a single article for, for example Wakefield (the city) and City of Wakefield (the district).

If this issue is of interest to you , please comment on Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Subdivisions.

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This is my first post to a wiki comment and I don't know what the form is.

1) In consideration of the etymology in http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/norol-BF-R.html (Old Norse online) the following are defined:

vaka - be awake, stay awake, watch fold - people, world

Give that 'stay awake world' is consistent with Merrie City. Watch field and the I think [pre?] 18th Cent name Wakerfield are consistent with this and the old saying 'up with the watch' meaning up all night revelling. Could I offer this as a postulate.

2) My understanding of the Mulberry bush in Wakefield prison is that it is preserved in memory the poorhouse which preceded the prison on that site and that the rhyme was sung by the children as they danced round it 'on a cold and frosty morning'. In attmpting to understand why this was chanted and remembered consider that in Germany the very sweet and rare eiswein is the product of grapes caught by frost. A former HMP Wakefield prison officer has confirmed that the Mulberry's are sweeter on a frosty day. I think having fruit, sweetend by frost for children who at the time would elsewhere simply be worked and beaten for being the children of the poor would be specially remembered by people. I am an Old Savillian and my imperfect memory tells me that we were taught that the book 'The Vicar of Wakefield' was simply a discussion of the treatment of the poor, it could be that A vicar is also a church area and/or body of teaching and that if put in a temporal context the treatment of the poor was so advanced that it required an entire book to document it. But this is again a postulate.

3) Again from school 'Its thought that Wakefield was once the capital of West Yorkshire' Does anyone know if that is because of or in fact an assertion that should be cross referenced with the existence of Sandal Castle.

4) Does the Amphitheatre 'bank' that was in Thornes now Clarence Park still exist? And was it ever/has it ever been dated? It wo uld be ammusing if it was really as one drunk local history scholar said 'tested and got wrong because results were too old' Given the age of Yorkshire's Wapetakes and the need for a meeting place for a 'Thing' (and perhaps 3) above).

5) I heard that despite the publicity claims neither of the groups The Brotherhood of Man or Lieutenant Pigeon were actually Wakefield or Five Towns - It would be nice to relieve ourselves of association with 'Save all your kissess for me.' and of course as its always call 'That B****y Agado.'

6) Peter Storey author of 'The Sporting Life' was an Old Savillian and possibly a Wakefield resident. Last I heard he was at the BBC and practising his writing. I would expect not all his work has been published under his name. Check.

7) I don't know at what level you list 'notables' of Wakefield by perhaps Adrian (Ada) Wilson - Journalist, Editor [et. al Tubthumping: New Writing from Yorkshire], Author [Like a Dog to Its Vomit], Inventor, and Musician of Sandal is an Old Savillian and contemporary of myself deserves listing. See Amazon for the novels (I can't find his earlier ones) and edited books. I'm led to believe he has invention[s] in high tech fabrics and was until recently editor of a Textile Month based in Bradford.

As a Musician he was a founder member of the Wakefield British Powerpop (a type of 1st generation punk) band Strangeways . If you want to listen to their music then you should get the 2004 album made from their late 70's session tapes called 'Powerpop'. Their singles are collectable Joey Ramone produced 'Wasting Time' can fetch in excess of 100GBP from a dealer and a number of other tracks were recorded at Abbey Road, the singles are 70's mod revival classics. One 'Chose Sauvage' a literal translation of 'Wild Thing' into french is sung by their then pre-Pretenders Chrissie Hind.

I have heard her (Chrissie, comtemporaneously on Radio 1) credit him with inspiring the line and title to The Pretenders british No. 1 'Brass in Pocket.' It went like in this 'Somebody brought a pair of flares [anathema to a 1st generation punk] in to the dressing room and asked whose they were. Ada said 'If there's brass int' pocket they're mine.' Obviously as an American she didn't hear the t' because in Wakefield at the time it was said as a differentiated 'n' sound and as documented elsewhere in the wiki these distinctions cannot be heard until you've been in Yorkshire for a number of years. Secondly she didn't know that brass int' pocket means money in the pocket and assumed it was some kind of magical property. Given that its said that in the 90s she also credited him with being her lover (they were in other apparently stable relationships at the time) the remainder of the lyrics may also be attributable to her feelings for him.

Subsequently Ada went 'solo' and recorded under a number of names like 'Ada Wilson and ...'. The self-financed "In the Quiet of My Room' was listed and Number 2 in the Sounds (a national music paper) chart for 1 week. As far as I'm aware 'Tattoo Hosts Vision On' was his only album, recordings featured Ian Nelson (Bill Nelson's younger brother) a number of times.

Notice that he is an ARTIST practicing his craft.

8) Bill Nelson is the same, if you consider the success of Bill Nelson's Red Noise (No 2 in the Album Chart) the fact that that it was considered punk yet Bill is not of that generation. Further Drastic Plastic (Be Bop Deluxe) contains 'musical phrase quotes' from early punk records. And yet more that faux faux pomp rock band (Justin/Julian someone as lead) and Elastica's second album quote his Be Bop guitar licks.

Sounding the Ritual Echo was released with Quit Dreaming and Get on With the Bean, I can beleive the assertion that he worked with Fripp and Eno on some [private?] recordings.

Look at the composition date and actual release date of track on Whimsy... is he waiting for others to catch up?

He too practices his craft and art as a musician.

9) It might be polite to enquire of WGHS if their statement 'she went to WGHS' of Lady Stella Rimington is more that just public school politeness but in fact an indication that she too is an Old Savillian.

Regards - Andrew Miles "Leny" Lindley

Andrew - please timestamp your comments on talk pages by putting 4 tildes at the end, like so: ~~~~

Regarding your comments, 1 and 2 sound like original research, which is to say they can be included only if you can back them up with an external source/references.

Point 3 is more or less correct though; Wakefield was once the county town of the West Riding of Yorkshire, or so says the Wakefield Historical Society, and they'd seem to be the ones to know. Spiral Wave 02:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

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I removed The Vicar of Wakefield from the list of famous people from Wakefield ... it's a book, not a person. Does anyone know if it has any real connection to Wakefield (i.e. it's set there )? Cheesewire 14:38, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

'better now? --Flammingo^Parliament 15:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Portland Cement

Joseph Aspdin pioneered Portland Cement in Wakefield (around Kirkgate, where I believe the facade of a local pub is made from this material and is the first time it concrete was used since Roman times).

Cannot remember the pub's name, but I can easily (and with the bonus of a pint) obtain this.

I am a proud resident of Wakefield, not something you often hear from someone under 30! Maybe I look at the place with rose-tinted specs on, but so many people are ignorant to it's history I want open people's eyes to it!

Also, the history section starts at the War of the Roses. I will delve into the archives and try and give it something a little earlier to start with.

FeZzYwEzZy [Birth.Life.Death] - Do It All Or Die Trying... 14:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC) user:ledsabbathstein

Disambiguation of cities

There is a proposal at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_England#City_disambiguation that affects this article. If passed, it would alter some of the links to this article and related content. The full details and rationale are found at WT:ENGLAND. --Jza84 |  Talk  12:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The move

At least Black Kite showed a bit of common sense and moved it back! For what its worth, I strongly oppose any further movement of this article, and I also suggest that Jza84 stop's making disruptive moves like this without getting consensus first. Wikipedia has a WP:RM process for a reason, use it! Jeni ^(talk) 15:05, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you'll find that I'm quite encouraged to BE BOLD Jeni, and that you are required to assume good faith.

Regarding common sense.... where is the evidence that "Wakefield" (the town) deserves the primary slot? I think it's quite sensible to adopt a consistent style with Salford, Lancaster, Carlisle and Sunderland is it not? I.e. not force an arbitary, pseudo-assumed main topic on the reader without evidence? --Jza84 |  Talk  23:36, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Where is the evidence to the contrary? The 'consistent style' that you quote is one that you have imposed, certainly on the Sunderland and Salford articles, without consensus either for the individual or collective moves. The discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_England#City_disambiguation shows that there is a lot of disquiet about this imposition. --Harkey (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Common sense dictates that more people will be interested in an actual place than in the local government organisation that administers it (and page view stats back this up). Hence Wakefield should have primacy over City of Wakefield. I would even go so far as to say that articles such as City of Wakefield are of so little consequence that they should be merged with the article about the place, with their content being subsumed into the Governance section. LevenBoy (talk) 13:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Look at the 'places' in other parts of the English speaking world: Chicago, New Orleans, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Toronto, Vancouver, Adelaide, Canberra. They have a more globally 'consistent style'. They each have hatnotes pointing to dab pages. These articles do not confuse users with petty, local, bureaucratic and administrative niceties. The 'original place' has primacy. That is the meaning of the word. All other appellations and uses in the English language are derived from it.--Harkey (talk) 15:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The current arrangement of disambiguation as it applies to some locations is far from satisfactory and leads to initial confusion. It's unfortunate that we've ended up like this. It seems to be the result of a fairly strong lobby by editors who've written extensively (and well) on local government and have gone on to set the standards and guidelines. LevenBoy (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

In the USA only a very limited number of the largest cities are not disambiguated. The standard convention is Placename, Statename. MRSC (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense in the USA. Nearly all place names are given to multiple locations. That's not so in Britain. Also, we are only talking about major settlements in Britain, so it doesn't make sense to disambiguate them. LevenBoy (talk) 19:32, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we should, just pointing out the lack of a globally 'consistent style' for place names, which was asserted. MRSC (talk) 19:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. But that's not the point anyway. Places like Miami do not suffer from the effects of ambiguity (eg distinct Miami, Florida and City of Miami entities), while the move of Wakefield to Wakefield, West Yorkshire would be much more NPOV, and allow for more appropriate linking. Anyone looking for the 70 or so concepts/titles named "Wakefield" is arbitarily given a page about Wakefield town. It recieves a spike in page hits because it is the common name (or denominator) for all these concepts, including the very closely tied City of Wakefield page. This is why Wakefield receives so many page views (it recieves hits from readers looking for Wakefield town and the City of Wakefield, because its occupying the common name). The opposition to the move is resistent to change, seemingly arguing that the entire project will collapse and readers' brains will burst in the confusion of a clear and centralised disambiguation page..... even when we have perfectly workable, practicable, solutions that already exist in exact circumstances, such as Salford. I urge users to reconsider if Salford-style disambiguation is so bad... if nothing else it eliminates the confusion about city status and local authority remit... :) --Jza84 |  Talk  23:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Article

There is an awful lot of "waffle" and speculation in the development section, I think it needs pruning. In fact looking through the whole article, a lot is unreferenced and says in a paragraph what might be contained in a sentence. There are lots of lists, no Geography, and far too much about nightlife and culture.I think I'd like to have a go at rewriting quite a lot of this according to the settlement guidelines if nobody has any objections. It might take a while, I don't work very quickly :( --J3Mrs (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

In fact the more I read it it seems to be a direct copy of the developers/council brochure. I'm sure I can condense it to a short paragraph which I think ought to be called regeneration and put into the Economy section.--J3Mrs (talk) 11:11, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Would anyone care to look at the current state of this article and let me know what else needs looking at. I know about Economy but hate figures :(--J3Mrs (talk) 14:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with Economy is the difficulty of finding information that is just about the Wakefield "urban area" rather than the more official City of Wakefield. The Lead needs to be more a summary of the whole article, a sentence, or at least a mention about each section. There should be nothing in the lead that is not mentioned later. These tools will help to highlight some mechanical tasks. Alternative text is needed for the images. Culture and Sport may need editing to be less like list of unrelated sentences. --Harkey (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Weather

I think the nearest weather station is in Leeds by about ten miles, sorry, nice table --J3Mrs (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Please can you give me the URL for the Leeds Met Office weather station?--Harkey (talk) 14:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Will this do? [1]--J3Mrs (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope, sorry, that's a forecast not a record! BTW, why cut the publication date from citations. I'm using the citation button on the Wikipedia tool bar to give the fullest and most appropriate parameters/details.--Harkey (talk) 15:14, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Might find this useful.[2] --Malleus Fatuorum 15:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Nice one, thank you.--Harkey (talk) 15:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realise I'd cut a publication date, Which one was It, I'll replace it?--J3Mrs (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

When using the {{Cite web}} template I'd used the " | year = " parameter several times.--Harkey (talk) 16:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that, it's simply that when doing my GAs I was advised it was best to keep to one citation template which I have done, and done for all the other refs I found. :) --J3Mrs (talk) 16:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Images

I think the Mining museum pic should go, it's in the district not the city. I have some pics that I might try to upload (Something I am completely hopeless at for some reason) I have one of the medieval bridge & chapel and I know there are lots on Geograph. --J3Mrs (talk) 11:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the Town Hall should move to Governance, or perhaps we could find a good one of County Hall--J3Mrs (talk) 11:40, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What about this? --Harkey (talk) 11:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

or chose from here--Harkey (talk) 11:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I took this one [3]:). I'll leave it up to you. The Bridge is not on Geograph.--J3Mrs (talk) 12:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

This looks OK?--Harkey (talk) 12:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

It's fine, use it, thanks for using mine :-). There were lots of good pics there, we could find something to replace Wakefield Westgate I expect. I wonder if the Hepworth Eyesore or the theatre are on there. Must go appointment --J3Mrs (talk) 12:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm delaying adding images until we know how much leeway we have with the 'filled out' text. The revised Lead section will no doubt push everything down a bit as will Landmarks. Glad your book came. I haven't seen hide nor hair of my postman today!--Harkey (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Wakefield Cathedral

Hello, I'm missing a reference to the cathedral having the tallest cathedral spire in Yorkshire, see also WP:CITE. Thanks --Dionysos1988 (talk) 04:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I have added a primary and secondary reference for Wakefield Cathedral spire height, I guess they should go in the Wakefield Cathedral article instead / as well? There is also a tertiary reference in the Dalesman magazine. Scillystuff (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Social Housing

I think it's a bit simplistic to say "this led to a situation where, by 2004, the council could no longer keep up with the maintenance of the houses and sold them all off to a housing association."

There is quite a lot of history going back to the Thatcher Government at least about how maintenance budgets have been restricted (as well as other local authority budgets). Then more recently the previous Labour administration set a Decent Homes Standard that is impossible to meet without private investment that is denied to local authorities. This is leading many if not most local authorities to transfer their housing stock into one of a range of alternatives including Arms Length Management Organisations (ALMOs); stock transfer (typically, as in Wakefield, to a newly created Registered Social Landlord - our houses weren't "sold off to a housing association"), or one of two or three other alternatives that I now forget. All these new structures are governed by bodies at least nominally independent of the local authority, and can thus attract private investment.

There should be an article by someone who knows more about this than me, but I would at least suggest that the sentences are changed to something like "Wakefield is distinctive in having had an unusually high amount of council housing, and in 2004 when tenants voted overwhelmingly to transfer the entire housing stock to a new registered social landlord (called Wakefield District Housing) it became the second largest stock transfer in British history." visctrix

• Made this change today following no response here. Visctrix 14:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

The section on council housing is interesting content, and I think it's quite notable that the entire council housing stock was transferred to a non-council landlord (housing association or whatever they are). However this really needs supporting references, as it's a politically sensitive area, and it needs to be clearer, as it affects a lot of people's lives. Are they council houses or not? Are they or were they 50% council rented? or WDH rented? I'm sure the wakey express will have covered it so there must be plenty of articles we could reference. Also the comments about a high proportion of council houses makes the city sound like a massive council estate, which it isn't. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 10:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

OK so much of this stuff has been hanging around since at least February and no-one has found a supporting source for it yet. In light of this, I've toned down the paragraph such that it doesn't include any bold political claims that we can't support, and should be more or less self-consistent. Original text moved here:

Wakefield is distinctive in having had an unusually high proportion of social housing,, and in 2004 when tenants voted overwhelmingly to transfer the entire council housing stock to a new registered social landlord (a registered charity called Wakefield District Housing) it became the second largest stock transfer in British history . Wakefield itself contains seven council estates and was almost 50% council-rented. The city's largest estate is Lupset, in the west; the others are Flanshaw, Plumpton, Peacock, Eastmoor, Portobello [known affectionately as "bella"] and Kettlethorpe.

References

...because this is important stuff, and as soon as we can give it a verifiable, factual foundation I think it should go back in. Behind The Wall Of Sleep 21:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Development

I have moved this here, if anyone really thinks it's encyclopedic feel free to put it back. It's a virtual copy of the developers stuff and some is still speculative. I have taken out the bits that have already happened and added a Regeneration section to the History in line with some GAs and FACs I have looked at.

Development Wakefield has a number of major development and re-development projects, aiming to bring new life into the city.

City centre

• The Bull Ring, which is going to be the centre point of the development, will feature a brand new water feature designed to improve the attractiveness of the town centre, and flooring made of granite, limestone, and sandstone imported from China.
• Trinity Walk is a £175 m development to the south-east of Wakefield city centre that will see original market hall and surrounding area demolished and replaced with a new indoor market (now completed in the place of the old bus station, directly next to the newer one), retail units and library. Work began in autumn 2007, with the entire project scheduled for completion in 2011. The developers had to stop building work early in 2009 after an investing Irish bank pulled out leaving the primary investor to be Yorkshire Forward. Wakefield District Council and Yorkshire are currently working to resolve the funding issues.In October 2009 it was announced that the project had secured a new backer and work is set to restart in January 2010 with the project due to be completed by Easter 2011.
  • Marsh Way -part of a proposed inner ring road, Marsh Way, has been rerouted to facilitate the development.
• ABC Cinema Flats – The original ABC cinema, which closed in 1997, has been given a new lease of life and a £13.5 m redevelopment converting the cinema into flats.
• Ings Road – Plans to demolish most of the current Ings road shopping park and redevelop into a "city centre like" shopping plaza, also to re-route the "motorway-like" Ings road to leave an un-congested street.
• Ridings Shopping Centre – Owners of the centre (Moorfield Real Estate Fund) have refurbished the 1980s city centre shopping mall, replacing the original entrance with a new glazed front.
• Community Stadium – For many years in the planning stages, and after a number of false starts, a new stadium will replace the old Belle Vue ground, the home of the Wakefield Trinity Wildcats. It is planned (April 2009) on the site of the old Newmarket Colliery in Stanley, north of the city and close to the M62.

Waterfront

• Waterfront Wakefield – £150 m development of the Old Fernandes brewery in Kirkgate. The development will see new office, retail, restaurant and cafe units built alongside the Hepworth Gallery, an art gallery built to honour the sculpture and art of Wakefield-born Barbara Hepworth. Phase 1 of the Waterfront Wakefield development is now complete and comprises The Navigation Warehouse (Grade II* Listed offices), 1 & 2 Navigation Walk (offices), Calder & Hebble (residential and restaurant opportunity).
• Chantry Waters – Adjacent to the development at Wakefield Waterside, Chantry Waters is a regeneration of Calder Island alongside Vauxhall. Phase one is completed and Chantry Waters Flats were completed in February 2007. Phase Two includes office blocks and begins in 2008. This development lead to the closure of Springtime Studios in 2006, the recording/rehearsal studio run by The Cribs.

Westgate

• Westgate Station – A regeneration of the station by the city council and the English Cities Fund, moving the station down the railway line, extending the platform and building a new hotel.
• Westgate Key Development Area – The current station and goods yard will be converted into a retail and commercial hotspot.
• Wakefield Theatre Royal – The theatre is to be extended for the inclusion of new facilities including studio space, bar/restaurant and an education suite.

References

Put it back if you like--J3Mrs (talk) 20:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the section needed pruning a lot, as do quite a few of the other sections, to make them more encyclopedic. --Harkey (talk) 14:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

--J3Mrs (talk) 11:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Section moves?

Maybe Council Housing under Governance and Prisons near Economy?--Harkey (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I was going to have a section called Religion as I was putting together something on the churches, religious and listed buildings in the town, see Leigh. Can the table be called something else and my edit restored? Otherwise I think my edit would be better in the History Section :-). Picky aren't I? --J3Mrs (talk) 12:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Prisons ought only to be a sentence, maybe it could fit somewhere in history, Council Housing needs severe pruning where ever it goes. --J3Mrs (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

How about a Landmarks section to take in the Chantry Bridge, Cathedral, notable churches, listed buildings, etc.. Religious statistics could just be part of Demographics without a separate heading, if you wish. I agree about cropping the others down. I am still trying to get my head round it all and sorting fact from fiction!! Your refs are helping a lot. --Harkey (talk) 12:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Landmarks section great, I'll have a churches section in that, but off out now so later :-)--J3Mrs (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

PS I was wondering where the rhubarb should go. Culture?? After pruning, not rhubarb pruning :)--J3Mrs (talk) 13:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

What, horticulture? :-) --Harkey (talk) 13:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I think we need a hedge trimmer, or maybe a chainsaw :(, the rhubarb could go in a crumble. The religion section is probably fine but might be better after Education as in the style guide, what do you think? --J3Mrs (talk) 16:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Well as you can see I have pruned a lot of the unreferenced and to be honest there was a lot of info in there, a lot of it hidden in fancy prose and repetition. I have found some refs and attempted to make them all the same format. It's still a jumble but I think I am beginning to see "the wood from the trees". It is starting to take shape Will attempt to put it into something like paragraphs over the next week.--J3Mrs (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

(reset indent)OK. I'll hold back from editing for a while. I thing we narrowly missed a lot of 'edit conflicts' when we were both editing at the same time this morning. I may be of some use when we come to add new sections/information.--Harkey (talk) 20:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, don't let me put you off. Apart from prisons and council housing and adding the Landmarks section I think the shape of the article isn't too bad, it just needs proper referencing. I was hoping to get a book today but it didn't arrive so hopefully on Monday I will have something decent to cite. You could do the Geography as you suggested earlier. --J3Mrs (talk) 19:19, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the WP:TOC is getting a bit out of hand. Maybe it's time to reduce some of the sub sections to paragraph status.--Harkey (talk) 12:49, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok no probs, I have puned a lot and a bit more isn't a problem. There's loads more info in the article now, it's getting the prose right. By the way I'm standardising all the refs to citation. --J3Mrs (talk) 13:57, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed a bit you wrote in Later History, I think it would be really good in Governance.:) I think the Council Houses should be incorporated into Later History and I wonder if Regeneration might sit better in Economy. What do you think? I'm still waiting for the book I was promised, no post yet :(--J3Mrs (talk) 11:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes to all, I've been thinking along similar lines. I'm having similar problems with books in the post, not particularly for Wakefield, but it's really frustrating.--Harkey (talk) 11:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Book arrived, it's not what I was expecting but probably more use! (well it was for governance) I will now try to make a better job of Later History, when I've read it.--J3Mrs (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2015

Please change Ian Perrell to Gareth Ian Boris Perrell, as this is his full title. 82.44.190.194 (talk) 13:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done - as neither swimmer has an article, and there are no references whatsoever, I have removed both - Arjayay (talk) 14:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)