Talk:White AM armoured car

Military history: Land vehicles / European / French / World War I / World War II

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White Automitrailleuse 2.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Produced in 1915 or 1917[edit]

@Cavalryman: Pierre Touzin, in his book Les véhicules blindés français 1900-1944 (pp. 26-29), explains that the 1915 model was a prototype of an armoured body fitted on a Panhard chassis. The prototype was sent to the front in December 1916, with the 3e groupe d'autocanons (3rd group of "armoured cars with gun") 300 were ordered in January 1917. That order was reduced to 10 (!) in February and cancelled in March 1917. From February 1917, it is proposed by the army that the armoured body would be fitted on a White chassis. In August 1917, the Army requested that the armoured bodies of the cancelled order would be used for the new order. Production did not start until April 1918 (Segur and Lorfeuvre did not have the ability to produce the vehicle). Berliet manufactured the first vehicles and the production was finished by Renault after the Berliet plant exploded in October 1918.

That description is really precise and I think it is more accurate than Hogg's text.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 09:52, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the sources contradict each other and Touzin gives a more detailed account, but other sources such as this (again questionable, possibly okay) support what is stated in the article. Perhaps we could explain the contradictory accounts in the text. In future it would be appreciated if you would introduce such information and better explain your edits, your edit summary was inaccurate. Cavalryman (talk) 10:29, 21 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Further, the Bradford source states 20 vehicles were introduced into service in 1915 and later supplemented with further vehicles in 1918, something you removed with this edit. Cavalryman (talk) 10:44, 21 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

About Warwheels, a reader published a correction : http://www.warwheels.net/images/ACJFinal5.pdf#page=8.

About Bradford, I checked the source and did not see anything about the production of 20 vehicles in 1915 : https://books.google.fr/books?id=6bm3DAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:9780811742115&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi95ZTQwujrAhWjxoUKHV2xAIYQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg

I honestly doubt Hogg & Weeks are reliable sources when a more precise study contradicts them. --Le Petit Chat (talk) 12:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tank Encyclopedia has an editorial board and is generally a reliable source but they are often wrong on small details. I contacted them after I read some approximations about French tanks and we agreed on the need of minor rewrittings.

--Le Petit Chat (talk) 12:17, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The entries in Bradford’s book are arranged by year of production (in this case 1915), it states 20 were produced with an additional 230 in 1918. I agree the coverage is not extensive and the source is flimsy but several sources seem to corroborate the same idea.

My judgement of Tank Encyclopedia is the same as yours, they seem to have robust editorial oversight and are generally reliable but I wouldn’t give them greater weighting than many other works. Cavalryman (talk) 14:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

I found another source that explains the 1915 model was a prototype on Panhard chassis: https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2019/09/30/wwi-armoured-cars-3-of-3-parts/ and that the initial order of 10 vehicles was cancelled. The source is probably not reliable enough to be cited as a reference but it seems serious.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 14:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One could say that the Ségur & Lorfeuvre armoured car was "designed" in 1915, as Bradford states. However, Bradford is not very clear: he does not claim that the first 20 vehicles were produced in 1915 but he only explains that they had a chassis produced by White and that in October 1918 a new order for 230 cars was placed. --Le Petit Chat (talk) 14:36, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Cavalryman: ?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 17:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We still have the Tank Encyclopedia source which is not inconsistent with Hogg/Weeks and Bradford, without further sources I think it’s fair to say sources contradict each other (upon citing Touzin). I oppose reverting to your diff, it contradicted the sources cited. Cavalryman (talk) 22:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

I give up then.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 09:14, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Le Petit Chat, I do support the incorporation of the Touzin material. Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 09:32, 24 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]