Talk:Yōon

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Name change[edit]

Essentially the same thing also happens in Korean, and I've even seen the English term "yotalization" used for it, although Google rather incredibly finds precisely zero hits for the word. Should the name be changed...? Jpatokal 10:11, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting a change to "yotalization"? Also, I'd definitely suggest making a different article about the Korean "youon", rather than trying to mix the information into this article. Mixing them together would be a bit like writing an article about French and English spelling together. The resulting page would be very hard to maintain. --DannyWilde 10:58, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is useful, since it is about specific sounds with specific kana for a specific language. I think the name is evidently appropriate since an alternative name has not even been conceived.--Saledomo (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Kwa" combination in pre-reform spelling?[edit]

I'm not sure where this would go, but the kwa (くゎ) combination seen in various On readings before the orthographic reforms seems to be another example of sound combinations added to better simulate the pronunciation of the Chinese syllables (though one could also assume that it never caught on as well since it was eliminated from standard pronunciation). I know it would be a different phonological phenomenon, but... where would I put this, exactly?

Other examples:

怪談　くゎいだん　かいだん
観音　くゎんおん　かんのん
関西　くゎんさい　かんさい
過去　くゎこ　　　かこ
菓子　くゎし　　　かし

--Anonymous

Done This has been included in the article since. More details in the Japanese Wikipedia as well. --Saledomo (talk) 15:10, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese Origin?[edit]

"Most of the words which now use yōon were originally derived from Chinese. The ancient version of Japanese did not have any yōon sounds. It is theorised that yōon developed because of the influence of the Chinese words."

But there are some words that use 拗音 that are not of Chinese origin.

Examples: ちょっとちゃんとしゃんと

And in the word 今日（きょう）, this pronounciation is not of Chinese origin.

"It is theorised that yōon developed because of the influence of the Chinese words." Therefore, under this theory, the words that you mentioned developed their current pronunciation due to influence of Chinese words.

That's news to me, though. I'm going to put up a citation needed tag. Keith Galveston ~sign your posts on the talk page!~ (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. I'm removing the sentence pending a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.178.17.18 (talk) 22:51, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It could be better cited and described, but for the specific example given, /kjo:/ was historically /kep\u/ (ke = this) + (p\u = day).[1] So /kjo:/ does not demonstrate a Japonic origin of the /kj/ sound. --Saledomo (talk) 15:26, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Old Japanese stage of the language did not have any of these yōon sounds.

Words like ちょっと (chotto) are more recent developments, which only appear after the emergence of yōon -- which itself was, as the article notes, due to the influence of Chinese phonetics. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Appearance[edit]

How do yōon appear in vertical text? Horizontal? Are they centered on the squares, or aligned with some edge or corner? The article should say. It should also have a picture demonstrating yōon in the middle of both vertical and horizontal text, short enough that they can be picked out, and made obvious by change of face or color. LokiClock (talk) 16:17, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I picked up the first book I had close, and they are written in a smaller space, horizontally (i.e., like their regular-sized counterparts) and centered to the right. Don't have a photo of this use handy, though. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See these. page 1 line 3 and page 2 line 1. page 234 line 6 You can see a big よ in line 4. And compare よ/ょ in Q30 and 31. Oda Mari (talk) 17:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, maybe update the article instead rather than keep the answer in the discussion? --Saledomo (talk) 15:28, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yōon with chi + dakuten[edit]

The yōon ヂャ・ヂュ・ヂョ・ぢゃ・ぢゅ・ぢょ are not in this list, but it appears that they are in use in modern Japanese (at least when writing things in kana that would usually be written in kanji). Examples:

http://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-%E3%82%89%E3%81%8F%E3%81%A2%E3%82%83%E3%82%8F%E3%82%93.html

http://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-%E3%81%A2%E3%82%85%E3%81%86.html

http://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-%E3%81%A2%E3%82%87%E3%81%86%E3%81%97.html

They are also listed in Chi (kana).

Given this, I believe they should be added to the list. I checked the history and it seems they've never been here.

Discussion? Tualha (Talk) 00:33, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tokushuon (va, vya, gwy, tha, and so on)[edit]

I can not fond the Tokushuon (and explanation about them), I've found them in http://www.saiga-jp.com/japanese_language.html .

A search of "Tokushuon " in Wikipedia brings me nothing --109.55.7.19 (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just a warning, that link tried to install malware. Yes what you were looking for sounds out of scope for this article. The closest article I could find is this: ja:外来語の表記. --Saledomo (talk) 08:02, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]