Template talk:Infobox aircraft occurrence

Borders

The border are a bit too much????nishantjr (talk) 20:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Accident or Incident

If you check Aviation accidents and incidents there are somewhat precise definitions of what is an accident and what is an incident. Everytime that somebody is killed or the aircraft is damaged (or disappears completely) it's an accident. So I guess most incidents that aren't classified as accidents aren't notable. I think the template should say "Accident summary" on the top by default. Perhaps we could add a switch "accident_or_incident=" for those incidents that do have their own articles. --ospalh (talk) 11:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess I have to amend that a bit. Hijackings are aviation incidents and notable. So we probably shouldn't just change the text from incident to accident.--ospalh (talk) 11:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Calling all occurrences 'incidents' is wrong, as would be calling them all 'accidents'. As you say above, there are precise legal definitions for both accident and incident, and 'occurrence' covers both of them. The current version is wrong, because it implies there were no fatalities, for example, whereas most notable occurrences are fatal. I am planning to change the title to 'occurrence', which is the generic term used by government agencies, pending a better term. Crum375 (talk) 03:27, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I ended up adding an optional parameter 'occurrence_type', which allows the editor to specify 'Accident' or 'Incident', and will default to plain 'Occurrence' if unspecified. This can be improved by forcing enumerated types, possibly using a different parameter name/style, and documentation. Also, given that most notable occurrences are Accidents, it may make sense to default to 'Accident'. Crum375 (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Great work! Thanks. I'm all for changing the default to Accident.

The main alternative to Accident will be, AFAIS, Hijacking and not Incident. I maintain that what's classified as just an Incident is not notable most of the time. The Gimli Glider you added as an 'Incident' is classified an accident by aviation-safety.net. (Search Gimli in the list. The 'cat' 'A2' (last column) means 'accident, plane could be repaired'.) I think that's right: the plane was seriously damaged and a few passengers got hurt during evacuation. An example for just an incident is this ATSB final report. In short: some kind of fuel loss, one engine shut down, landed ASAP, nothing else happend. Other typical incidents are, AFAIK, planes on the runway without authorisation. Doesn't seem notable to me.

What I wonder is; are there enough hijackings using this template to justify not changing the default from Occurance to Accidnt. I think not, but I'm not sure. And it's surely a matter of opinion.--ospalh (talk) 07:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I took a look at some of the pages that use this template. There were more hijackings, and other acts of terrorism (bombings) than I thought. I've now changed my mind. Looks like it'll be better not to change it from Occurrence to Accident.--ospalh (talk) 09:52, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll change the docs from "Accident or Incident" to "Accident or Hijacking, or leave blank" with a few more words in the parameters table. I'm unsure what the title should be for a bombing or shootdown. Of course "Occurence Summary" fits, but it sounds a bit generic. And "Act of Terrorism Summary" or "Criminal Act Summary" to me seem to be a bit long for the heading in an infobox. I'm not sure that using different occurrence_type for each of those is a good idea. Anybody got an idea?--ospalh (talk) 10:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Callsign

Any chance of including this in the template? Thanks Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Renaming

Given that the 'occurrence_type' parameter seems to be sticking, and that this infobox covers hijacking, suicide/homicide bombings, as well as plain non-accident incidents, and given that the default caption is 'occurrence', I think it's time to move the title to 'Infobox Aircraft occurrence'. Of course all previous names will be redirected, so there should be no breakage. Comments? Crum375 (talk) 03:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have performed the move. Crum375 (talk) 02:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Image size

In the documentation, it state that the "image_size" field "defaults to 230 if blank". However, this does not appear to be working, an the inamge is shown at full size. I think perhaps too many cooks have been stirring the broth here. Perhaps it's time to semi-protect the template? Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 08:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Stopovers

Can the template be amended to support two more stopovers please? Mjroots (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Fix for blank image parameters

If some of the image parameters are supplied but left blank, instead of being ignored the template currently uses them as though blank.

For example, if image_size and alt are listed but blank, the code results in [[Image:example.jpg|px|alt=]] instead of [[Image:example.jpg|260px]]. This does not much matter for alt but for image_size it unexpectedly results in the image being rendered at full size. The {{Px}} template is intended to help in situations such as this, and it also allows editors flexibility on whether to include "px" after the number.

Also, if image is left blank but Crash image is specified instead, the template expects them to be usable interchangeably but in this case image will still be used, resulting in a blank file name.

Finally, the image_size parameter is also passed on directly to {{Infobox}} even though the Infobox template does not have a parameter of that name.

Therefore, I suggest deleting the following two lines:

 | image       = {{#if:{{{image|}}}{{{Crash image|}}}|[[Image:{{{image|{{{Crash image}}}}}}|{{{image_size|260}}}px|alt={{{alt|}}}]]}}
 |image_size   = {{#if:{{{image_size<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}}{{{size|260}}}}}

and replacing them with the following one line:

 | image       = {{#if:{{{image|}}}{{{Crash image|}}}|[[Image:{{#if:{{{image|}}}|{{{image|}}}|{{{Crash image|}}}}}|{{px|{{{image_size|}}}|260px}}|{{#if:{{{alt|}}}|alt={{{alt|}}}}}]]

I've updated the /sandbox but not changed the template itself yet in case anyone has any comments.

— Richardguk (talk) 02:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: The template has not been moved, in accordance with the consensus here. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 19:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

---

Template:Infobox Aircraft occurrence → Template:Infobox Aircraft incident — It is usual to refer to such events not as "occurrences", but as "incidents". Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 09:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose — "Incident" in aviation refers to a very specific type of event, where there are implications to safety, possibly some minor injuries, but no fatalities. It is distinct from "Accident", where there is at least one fatality, or major damage and/or injuries. (See the U.S. NTSB's definitions here and the international ICAO's "Occurrence Classes" definition here.) There are also other types of events which are classified separately by ASN and Wikipedia, such as hijacking. The generic name for all these types of events can't be "accident" or "incident", because they are mutually exclusive, and don't include a suicide bombing, for example. "Occurrence" is used on WP to refer to all generic events, with an optional occurrence_type parameter to allow editors to specify a more specific type, such as "accident", "incident", or "homicide bombing", depending on the type of occurrence. Crum375 (talk) 10:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
• 'It looks like this template is intended to cover the entire spectrum of aviation mishaps, which includes the technical definitions of "accident", "incident", etc.. Because of the need to distinguish the colloquial from the technical meaning, we shouldn't use "incident". Therefore, oppose. TheFeds 22:28, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
• Support. The current name is of no value if figuring out what this covers. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
  • The template's name is supposed to remain as generic as possible, to cover all possible aircraft occurrences, but the occurrence_type parameter lets the editors decide the specific type of occurrence. Crum375 (talk) 20:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
    • Generic yes. Meaningless no. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
      • The reliable sources (ICAO and U.S. NTSB) use "occurrence" as the generic name for an aircraft event. Do you have another suggestion? Crum375 (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
• Perhaps Template:Infobox Aircraft event would be acceptable? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Why would we want to overrule the two reliable sources we have for this, ICAO and NTSB, which use "occurrence"? Crum375 (talk) 12:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
    • For the reasons Vegaswikian and I gave above. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
      • But I don't see any explanation as to why the reliable sources are wrong. Crum375 (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
        • That would be because nobody is claiming that "the reliable sources are wrong". Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
          • So if they are right, why not rely on them? Crum375 (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
            • Crum, just drop the issue for now. Consensus is not required to be unanimous, so it isn't worth going in circles over. - BilCat (talk) 14:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
            • Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial, since they do not address the issue of naming a Wikipedia template. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Template:Infobox Aircraft event is probably too vague to be useful, and even more meaningless than "occurence" can be without any context. - BilCat (talk) 14:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
    • I also think "aircraft event" could refer to "happy" occasions, such as a "roll out" or inaugural flight of a new type, a record-breaking flight, or even a "Fly-in". This is why it's nice to have the reliable sources picking the word for us. Crum375 (talk) 15:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per Crum375. If reliable sources use "occurrence", then it is hardly "meaningless". - BilCat (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Crum375's comments. - The Bushranger (talk) 16:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Maps

Would it be useful to be able to include a map showing the location of the accident/incident? What I have in mind is something similar to the various maps showing locations of towns and villages. Mjroots (talk) 15:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. This template should really allow for a map to be added (like this for example). It should also allow for the time to be added (i.e. the time that the incident happend). ~Asarlaí 21:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Split type= to scenario= and cause= ?

The so named "accident type" parameter attempts to answer simultaneously two different questions:

• Which was a scenario of the event destroyed an aircraft and made some fatalities inevitable?
• What factors caused such scenario to be realized?

Such choices for type= as “Mid-air collision”, “Controlled flight into terrain” and “Structural failure” are scenarios, but each of these may have various causes. On the other hand, “Pilot error”, “Metal fatigue” and “Improper maintenance” are possible causes, but not scenarios.

Comprehensive descriptions of incident scenario and cause should be like that:

| scenario= Mid-air collision | cause= ATC error
| scenario= Explosive decompression | cause= Metal fatigue

Incnis Mrsi (talk) 10:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. I've always found "accident type" to be confused/confusing. 82.1.57.194 (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

More info related to hijackings

I think it's a good idea to add some hijacking-specific items to the template to provide some information that's not normally applicable to other types of aviation occurrence. This includes:

• Number of hijackers. The infoboxes in some current hijacking articles include the hijackers in the passenger count, but others don't, and there seems to be little consistency. I think that a hijacker count is important enough to warrant its own line in the infobox.
• A separate injury, fatality, and survivor count for the hijacker(s). Again, some articles lump this in with the passenger count, which I find confusing.
• Number of hijackers captured, if any.
• Organization(s) to which the hijackers belong, if any can be identified.
• If the aircraft was diverted by the hijacker(s), I think the infobox should include the location(s) to which it was taken. Note that this is different than fields already included in the infobox- "Location" would be the place the hijacking occurred and "Destination" would be the flight's intended destination.
• A brief one-sentence description of the conclusion of the hijacking incident- e.g. "Hijacker arrested by police", "Airliner stormed by commandos, all hijackers killed, several hostages and one soldier injured".

Thoughts? Carguychris (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Took a stab at making the changes in the sandbox and test cases have been posted.Carguychris (talk) 15:53, 6 August 2011 (UTC)