Template talk:Northern Epirus
|This template was considered for deletion on 2009 September 6. The result of the discussion was "no consensus".|
|This template is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Recognition of Region
- 2 Region with historical-cultural background
- 3 Polyphonic_song_of_Epirus
- 4 Disruption again
- 5 New source
- 6 The sourced content
- 7 Polyphonic Music of Epirus
- 8 RFC: Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template?
- 9 RfC2: Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template?
- 10 Moved to Northern Epirus
Recognition of Region
Northern Epirus, especially when mentioning Albanian cities, such as Korca or Vlora, implies an irredentist view against Albania, thus weakening the NPOV of Wikipedia. The continuation of the existence of this template would imply the creation of new templates which violate other countries' territorial and political status quo.--T • ៛ 04:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
:I will have to agree with you. A check for this template was asked in IRC, so I volunteered. I made some changes, after checking sources provided in articles. I will discuss this issue with some other users, in order to get some feedback. --Alarichus (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Region with historical-cultural background
- Apart from being considered irredentist the term is mainly associated with Greek populations that live in southern Albania (they call it N.E. and 785 hits in googlebooks use it too), which is the main reason that it exists. Historically, the term was rejected as irredentist by the Albanian communist regime (1945-1991). I see no reason to delete a 'term' virtually adopting a tottalitarian approach. Actually the template's title is Northern Epirus region & Greek culture in Albania (as per geographic and cultural background).Alexikoua (talk) 05:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I will give specific references that mention presence of Greek population in towns, cities that according to the former totalitarian regime in Albania (1945-1991) were never existent:
- T. Winnifrith: p. 29 []: Berat was the seat of a Greek bishopric in medieval and modern times, and today Vlach- and even Greek speakers can be found in the town and villages near by.
- Petiffer 2001:...thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994)...
- Vickers, Petiffer p. 187:...there was bitter inter ethnic conflict in the minority regions of Korca and Gjirokaster...
- Katherine Elizabeth Fleming: p.36: a large town whose Greek and Vlach merchants estamblished chamber of commerce. The prosperity of the Moschopolis Greeks...
The above references are included in the relevant articles, but there is an additional number of books & publications that confirms the above claims.
I have answered in our talk page discussion. Please read my reply there. --Alarichus (talk) 08:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that Greek editors gently remove Polyphonic song of Epirus from this template and also remove the template itself from the article of the Polyphonic song. There is no scholar conclusion to suggest that the song has Greek origins as this paragraph suggests. In fact, Vlachs and Albanians use the song as well. There are several sources to suggest that the song is used throughout Southern Albania (see  especially in the Laberia region . I could find plenty of sources to suggest a completely different article. Thank you! -- Let's talk 20:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
It implies that it is part of the Greek culture. This template reads "Greek culture". The implication is misleading. --Let's talk 10:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Nope, the implication is right, it implies that is part of the Greek culture and it is. If it is part of more than one cultures that's something irrelevant with this template.Alexikoua (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
It seems that the last days, from the moment the new 'restriction' is imposed, a number of spa accounts (Kushtrim & Stupidus Maximus) and ips have become aware and therefore very active, since they know that their job is much more easier now. No wonder the specific ip, that likes to follow me around [], didn't lose the opportunity to come here too. For the history, this template was a target of one of Sarandioti's sockpuppet Alarichus, and his removals are almost identical as the ips.Alexikoua (talk) 22:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
This template was the latest victim of a spa revert-only ip [], one of many that know even how to post an edit summary by misusing wp terms, that also mysteriously know how to 'edit' templates. Suppose just by being instructed to follow me around. History proves that it will strike again soon.Alexikoua (talk) 21:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- You gotta be kidding me, is Shkodër heavily populated by Greeks? Where on hell are Albanians on this country?Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- The second one is unreliable (400 thousand chams it says ;)). Whatsoever, my question stands too: Is there any Albanian in Albania? Nevertheless, I am not intervening until next year, when (finally) a census on ethnicity and languages will be held in Albania. Too many things to do than. Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- I really cannot comprehend how you think the presence of a small Greek community means that the town is inhabited exclusively by Greeks, with zero Albanians. So your questions borders on trolling. As for the census, well, μακάρι, but considering the inability to have a free and fair election, I am a little skeptical it will include language and ethnicity or meet international standards. But I digress. Athenean (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- Athenean it does include ethnicity and language and then many articles will have to be adjusted. I would also welcome an ethnographic census in Greece since the last one was in the 1950s and even then a Greek citizen could declare himself a)a Greek b)a Greek speaking as a second mother tongue another language.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:37, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Alexikoua I'm not being sarcastic at all and I don't understand why you would comment that I'm being sarcastic, but since Athenean made a remark I thought that a reply politely reminding certain existing conditions was appropriate. If you consider my remarks sarcastic then I'm sure that if you examine them you'll realize that I'm simply recounting official policies of certain countries, which under no context could be considered sarcastic. I tried to be as brief as possible per WP:FORUM as I don't want to detour the current discussion.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:15, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- It seems this template was the target of the recent drive-by initiative of Pakapshem. The user is informed that if he continues such an activity: personal attacking [] and without discussing [], a new block would become inevitable. Actually, after a long-term block, massive removals of sourced content is something that should be avoided. If there is any objection with this template, it's better to discuss them on this taklpage.Alexikoua (talk) 10:52, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
The template has significant amounts of unsourced and unsubstantiated information such as adding 5-6 Albanian cities with no Greek communities at all to the part of the template that talks about the modern settlements of Greek communities. The articles of these cities do not speak of any greek communities in these cities. Those cities have to be taken off from the template. --I Pakapshem (talk) 17:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
The sourced content
Athenean, you have to excatly show the sources and the qoutes from the sources that Bilisht, Erseke, Tepelene, Leskovik, Permet and Narte have significant greek populations or otherwise the info has to go. I found no sources or even claims in the articles for these cities about there being any greek populations. --I Pakapshem (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Check again this discussion and talk:Narte, we have a number of fine sources. If a specific work sounds somewhat exaggerated you can express your concerns here. But the bibliography is just fine.Alexikoua (talk) 18:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
I checked, go read my answer. The sources are 2 and they're far from being fine, and they talk about greek speaking populations and not greek populations. Narte is only one village, either way. No sources or claims in the articles of Bilisht, Erseke, Tepelene, Leskovik or Permet of there being any greek populations. You can't just add cities to your template without having any proof of any significat greek communities existing in these cities. --I Pakapshem (talk) 18:51, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
there are some greeks in the district of permet but i too doubt that there are that many...if any...in the town188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC) in the other areas im almost sure that there arent any...alex youre reaching here be reasonable184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
alex many of those sources are citing activists, cultural organizations etc who unfortunately exaggerate often..based on the same sources we could speak of hundreds of thousands of chams like balkanian said we need to put these numbers in order some time220.127.116.11 (talk) 22:10, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
If there are Greeks living today that's not the case. We are talking about traditional precense and the geographic definition of 'Northern Epirus'. Take for example Chams template. Chams have gone but they tradinionally used to live there. It's not a demographics template, or if a community is majority/minority.Alexikoua (talk) 05:52, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
hmm..i see your point and i dont disagree the only problem is that much of the greek population of 'northern epirus' with the exception of the southwest and himare wasnt greekspeaking but also vlach and albanian which would be a point of dispute with many editors since the descendants of these populations dont feel any connection to greece anymore...but anyway i still have doubts about SOME places for example why would you include e.g. Tepelene at all..it was always an albanianspeaking muslim place (the greek claims in the paris peace conference were quite exaggerated to be honest...) or why did you include Bilisht? im also not sure about the mention of all those northern places (shkoder, tirana etc.) even if some greeks live there..similar is Durres which was inhabited by greek populations along with latins etc. until late medieval times but what has it got to do with greeks in modern times? you dont have to clutter up the template with places of little to no relevance..18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- How do you know any of this? Are you kidding me? Saranda and Gjirokaster for sure have Greek populations. I can see a case for removing Leskovik and maybe Erseka, but the rest all stay. Athenean (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Korca, Erseke, Bilisht, Leskovik, Permet and Tepelene are definitley going. No mention whatsoever in the article of there being any greek communities at all, let alone significant ones. --I Pakapshem (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
ATHENEAN asked: "How do you know any of this? Are you kidding me? Saranda and Gjirokaster for sure have Greek populations. I can see a case for removing Leskovik and maybe Erseka, but the rest all stay." --- gjirokaster but especially sarande have a greek population but for example permet DOESNT...but the permet district does thats why im saying use the districts you dont clutter the template also..can you also argue why tepelene of all places should stay?? korce could stay since there were populations that sympathized with greece in the past and because of moscopole which though aromanian-speaking mostly was a center of greek culture which back then was the high culture of the christians all over the balkans19:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk)
- Regarding Permet, we have this source  that categorically says that the town itself was inhabited by Greeks. I rest my case. Athenean (talk) 19:50, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
What page? Who is this guy? Political parties of Eastern Europe? Hardly believable. All the above cities mentioned by me, will go pretty soon since there is no proof of any greek populations in them. --I Pakapshem (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
athenean this is the least...anyway the districts cover the towns also and the permet district should be included but you didnt tell me why you want to include eg Tepelene..? btw can you give me a page from that source?126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:53, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
i cant see that page...but what i can see is '[omonoia] received substantial support from the ethnic Greek minority concentrated in the southern districts of sarande and gjirokaster' and thats where the absolute majority of greeks are these days..with the exception of himare and as i said before and please keep it in mind its hard to fit the slightly more complex sociohistorical phenomena in orthodox albania among non-greek speakers with regards to greek nationalism in a single template...otherwise we could include even berat which would be ridiculous188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Polyphonic Music of Epirus
Rm Polyphonic Music of Epirus from the template. As we worked on that article, that showed the music is NOT apanage of the Greek culture, so if you keep that music in the template of the Greek Culture in Albania, is clearly POV. Thank you and please let me know if you disagree in my talk page. --Let's talk 15:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. Polyphonic singing is part of the Greek Culture of Albania. It doesn't matter that it is ALSO part of neighboring cultures, and that is the most POV reason for removing it. This Template is "Northern Epirus region & Greek culture in Albania", not "Northern Epirus region & Exclusively Greek culture in Albania". Anything that is part of Greek culture in Albania belongs here, simple as that. Athenean (talk) 16:25, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, haha ridiculous for real. It's not also part of neighboring cultures, but is also part of the so called greek comunity in Albania. Polyphonic Music of this kind is clearly Albanian, as it is recognized and protected as an oral treasure even by UNESCO. At best the so called greek minority has tried to immitate the Albanians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSa1mZrBq1g --I Pakapshem (talk) 16:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
RFC: Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template?
Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template? The polyphonic song of Epirus, a region divided between Albania and Greece, is a song that is part of both nations, Albanian and Greek and this transpires from the article itself. This template is called Greek Culture in Albania. Is it appropriate that the article be part of the template? Let's talk 18:08, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Polyphonic singing is not part of Greek Culture in Albania, since it's part of Albanian culture and it has been so since the beginning of time. If greeks try to sing polyphonically it just means that they're trying immitate the culture of the natives. I say it should be removed from the template. --I Pakapshem (talk) 19:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- "...since the beginning of time..." Just like that lunatic on youtube whose video you posted a link to. Athenean (talk) 19:46, 10 June
i pakapshem...sorry but i have to disagree here various kinds of polyphony exist among greeks albanians AND vlachs in some places. its a SHARED tradition and i doubt you truly know its origins and obviously theres no evidence from the 'beginning of time' either...184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Guys, had I wanted Greek or Albanian editors in this RFC I would have just asked for a third opinion. I want established editors who aren't from the Balkans. Would you please mind striking all of your edits in this RFC or transfer them into a higher paragraph? Thanks! --Let's talk 20:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
RfC2: Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template?
Is Polyphonic song of Epirus appropriate for this template, which reads Greek culture in Albania? The polyphonic song of Epirus, a region divided between Albania and Greece, is a song that is part of both nations, Albanian and Greek and this transpires from the article itself of the Polyphonic song of Epirus. This template is called Greek Culture in Albania. Is it appropriate that the article be part of the template? Let's talk 18:08, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
- I see no problem with having it. It's part of the shared culture of both groups in this region, so why not? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
- Well, the template's name is not Shared Culture between Greeks and Albanians, but Greek Culture in Albania, therefore having the Poliphonic song with that template and within that template simply implies that that's Greek Culture only. --Let's talk 15:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Moved to Northern Epirus
- How is it problematic? Care to explain? Korce was part of the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus. Besides, that is not a reason to remove "Greek Culture". Athenean (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Korce has been part of Bulgaria, Serbia, Ottoman Empire for 13 centuries, and we don't have templates for those, but we find ARNE's template which was there for two months. I would suggest that the two be split. One template for Northern Epirus, which is a geographical concept, and another one for the Greek culture, which is a cultural concept. Not necessarily the Greek culture is a predominant one in Northern Epirus and the two concepts together in one template are misleading. Setting geographical borders through some Greek culture that is present but not widespread in all Northern Epirus reveals a battleground mentality and the template, as it is, simply shows a chauvinistic view. If I have 1% of the population of Korce with Greek origin and in the bottom I find "Greek culture" as a template I really wouldn't want to read wikipedia anymore, because I know that a nationalist has written that. --Sulmues (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is not a reason to split the template. Splitting the template is a non-starter. NE is not just a "geographical concept" (what does that even mean?). Greeks and and Greek culture go together. The rest of your post makes no sense (Not necessarily the Greek culture is a predominant one in Northern Epirus and the two concepts together in one template are misleading. Setting geographical borders through some Greek culture that is present but not widespread in all Northern Epirus reveals a battleground mentality and the template, as it is, simply shows a chauvinistic view.). What chauvinism? What "battleground mentality"? Please don't toss insults like that around. Seems to me like all this is about is that you don't like seeing the word "Greek" in the Korce article. Well, I can't help you with that. I you don't want to read wikipedia anymore, then don't read it. Athenean (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)