User talk:Xyzt1234/Archive 1

User Xyzt1234 Page (Archived 2009-6-16)

FULCANELLI ISSUE

Hi there. Thanks for the message re Fulcanelli.

I've since done more research and, in the end, nothing can be taken at face value with Fulcanelli. The playfulness, the hall of mirrors aspect of what he writes is part and parcel of his message. And much of what you say makes absolute sense.

And while you're right that Alchemy is/was elitist in the sense that it wasn't for everyone in fact all spirituality is alchemical. Indeed, all Mystery Traditions have at their root the creation of the Immortal Self/Light Body, from the Shining Ones/Devas of Hinduism to the Resurrected Christ. And since all religions begin with the Mystery Traditions, or at least have them at their root, there is a strong argument to say that what we call organised religion, although not obviously Alchemical, has clues with which one can penetrate to the Mystery and, by default, has moved the common mass of humanity forward along that path.

To clarify - from what we understand Alchemy originated from Ancient Egypt and was a science of spiritual transformation practised solely by the elite. Other cultures - the Persians, the Greeks, the Indians etc - all had similar processes available to them. Esotericists believe that Kaballah emerged from the meeting of the Egyptian, Jewish and Persians Mysteries. Kaballah helped feed into the Essenes and, along with other cultures, presumably triggered the inception of Christianity which, if one reads the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, has encoded within it the process whereby the human organism achieves divinity a la Alchemy (indeed I have read persuasive analyses of Revelations in terms of Christian Alchemy). So the evolution of human spirituality in the West is one of transmission and amplification until what was an elite spirituality becomes available in exoteric terms ie to the many. Thus Christianity emerges into the light from an ancestry of Hermeticism, Alchemy, Kaballah, the Greek Mysteries, Gnosticism and Zoroastrianism.

Of course, only the very few were or have been able to respond to Christianity on this deeper, Alchemical level. Most followers can only relate to it literally. So esoteric truth becomes confused with literal truth and orthodoxy sets in. But, one assumes, the vestiges of that Alchemical message still have had an effect on us, however slow or small it might be,

Gosh! Having looked over that again, I realise I sound as obscure as Fulcanelli! What I am saying is that life itself is an Alchemical process and we are all on its path. Those we call Alchemists have made it their all-consuming life work.

I find the Fulcanelli myth fascinating, more the story of the visit to Spain than anything else. Again, I think this is a case of the Alchemical story being sold us through myth... Which makes it no less valid.

Anyway, thanks for chatting,

Best wishes

ThePeg 21:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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Hi. Thanx for your response.

Re the Spanish story I've posted this on my talkpage:

If memory serves me correctly the Spanish Fulcanelli story took place near Seville. Or am I wrong? I think the secret community of alchemists he is supposed to have referred to is somewhere in the Pyrenees. I first heard of Fulcanelli in Zaragoza.... ThePeg 22:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

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Just added this in response to your last:

That's depressing to hear. One would have thought an Alchemist would not be bogged down in racist politics, particlularly given that most Alchemists should know that their Art was brought to Europe via the Arabs in the 12th & 13th Centuries through Spain etc!

Incidentally for a fine Alchemical read may I recommend The Angel Of The West Window by Gustav Meyrink? Although often rather chaotic it is based on the Alchemical Quest, being about the life of John Dee. Its a great read. Enjoy. ThePeg 10:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Image of Henry the Navigator

Hello Xyz. You mentioned that the image of Prince Henry may not be correct. Can you point us to a source which discusses the matter? Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello. The discussion seems to have risen in the early 20th century, when the interpretation of the Panels of São Vicente de Fora (a polyptic painting where the well-known figure actually shown in wikipedia is) now at the Museu Nacional de Arte Antiga. Some commentators note that the hat and vests are burgundian (if I recall correctly, maybe flemish, but see Philip_the_Good, married to Infanta Isabel of Portugal, and ponder an interest of Portugal to get its influence inland), and that it seems that the prince never used a moustache, and that his likeness should be more possibly such as the one on his tomb. Furthermore, they claim to trace this "error" to a fake image glued in a fake copy of Gomes Eanes de Zurara Chronicle of the Discovery and Conquest of Guinea sold to an Englishman (?).

The only reference I have on the controversy on the panels figures and this situation is António Quadros "Portugal, Razão e Mistério" (vol. 2), a non-mainstream work which refers the controversy with some extent and points out many of the scholars and artists involved in it. I would have serious difficulty in pointing to a scholarly source, as it's not my field. See also [1] which is worth whatever it's worth, but has some imagery.

The idea I have about the controversy is that few, if none of the figures was identified, and that the jury is still out, if considerably tired of all the uncertainty. Yet the burgundian hat figure entered the common imagery to the point of international recognition and of popping out in the Descobridores monument in Lisbon, so maybe we shouldn't bother too much either. In a nutshell, the likeness of Prince Henry can be considered as still being unclear. (Sorry about the English, I'm too tired for a decent translation). --Xyzt1234 (talk) 18:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Science & Mysticism

Thanks for the messages! Wanted to add this:

> Otherwise we believe in math, and purely mental math, awfully, describes the physical world we know to perfection (I suppose Einstein had a quote on this... ah, here: "How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality? Is human reason, then, without experience, merely by taking thought, able to fathom the properties of real things?", but maybe it was a rethorical question). How is this possible? If this isn't mysticism then what is? :-)

Well, interestingly, the first great European mystic was Pythagoras who saw mathematics as the basis of everything. So I don't disagree. Of course, due to our modern embaressement regarding mysticism of any kind he is only presented to us as a mathematician but as with Descartes and Newton who are also only presented to us as mechanistic rationalists, his spirituality was fundamental to who he was and what he did. The Kabbalists, too, saw mathematics at the heart of spirituality. In those days, spirituality & science were not divided. If you look into Kabbalah, especially the Zohar, you will find most of the discoveries of modern science from the Big Bang to Dark Matter to ultraviolet and microwave level light described almost to a tee.

Interestingly, at the outset of Quantum Theory classical Physicists dismissed QM as 'Pythagorean Mysticism' because of its reliance on mathematics. David Bohm himself used this argument until he looked into it more and was convinced. Naturally as you have pointed out when mystics and scientists dismiss each other they usually don't know what they are talking about... Humbly speaking, I don't remember doing anything to provoke 'vengeance'! I will have to look back over what I have said before! ThePeg (talk) 22:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

a Escola de Sagres

Boa tarde Xyzt1234

I have seen that you have left a message on the talk page on the article concerning my person (Christophe Neff). This message could be interesting for you: [2]. I have explored you wikipage and also your private photogalerie (wonderfull photos) and also read your article about Prince Henry. You should absolutley write an article about the School of Sagres (A Escola de Sagres constitui um dos grandes mitos da história portuguesa ) – one of the grand myth of portugese history. I used to travel a lot in the region between 1996 and 1999, because I did the field work for my PHD-Thesis in the region (Costa Vicentina, Alcoutim) and also the Serra di Arrabida, Portinho because of the fire of the early 1990. My PHD-Thesis was modelling the future fire risks in the Mediterranean, and the example were the regions in the south of Portugal. The result was the forest fires risks will heavily increase – and this because of landabandonment, bushencroachment etc. – and not as a part of the portugese press is writing – because of climate warming. This absolutely false and nonsense. I have written a letter to the editor to the Publico in 2003 concerning this but its was not printed. (I have not only studied geography but also 3 years of roman studies (French, portugese and Italian). I still work in Portugal, - in September 2008 I passed two weeks in Faial on the Capelinhos mapping the pioniervegetation on the volcano. The medial attention for my person in Germany is dued to fact that I more or less forecasted the great fires in 2003 and 2006 in Portugal in my PHD-Thesis (Medgrow 1999). I d’ ont care to much on the english stub about my person, - so if you think it should be deleted, than push it into afd or speedy deletion. And please write an English article about the Sagres school of geographers. Boa tarde and we keep in touch Christophe Neff (talk) 19:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, Christopher. Thanks for your response in my talk page. I don't personally mind your article here; I was just wondering about the application of standards in wikipedia. I once started the stub on a world-known photographer (Kishin Shinoyama) and it almost went out in the very first days for lack of notability. Personally I prefer to include instead of deleting.

" The result was the forest fires risks will heavily increase – and this because of landabandonment, bushencroachment etc. – and not as a part of the portugese press is writing – because of climate warming. This absolutely false and nonsense."

Of course it's nonsense! But you know that the causes you mention are unpalatable and climate warming would have been better. On the other hand, I hardly ever get a letter to the editor published here (Portugal) if the ideas I present are not the ones that the media support. The single exception was a letter on the frauds of the passive smoking theory (you don't heve to agree with me, of course! Smoking is a most terrible thing and must be quenched) in a secondary newspaper.

The article on Prince Henry isn't mine. I only noticed that the image, which is his traditional representation and appeared in the Saint Vincent Panels in the early 20th, is subject to dispute still today, and some think it's Philip the Good, husband of the Infanta Isabel.

There are many interesting are relatively unknown myths (read as 'interesting stories') about Portugal; such as the possibility of it being one of the 2-3 birthplaces of megalithic cultures, it's relationship to the Knights Templar and the Benedictines via Bernard of Clairvaux, the Fifth Empire notion, etc... I don't feel able, at the moment, to write anything about the School of Sagres, it's a very complex matter and, as you know, shrouded in the strategic secrecy of the epoch.

Regards, --Xyzt1234 (talk) 09:13, 24 October 2008 (UTC)