View source for Talk:Toše Proeski

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{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=Mid}}
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{{Wikimedia CEE Spring 2022
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== Editing war ==

This article needs to be protected. It is being edited and reverted by the same people at a very high rate. Most of the edits aren't even related to his death, rather they are fan reviews, tributes, and political statements. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 19:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:My impression right now is that the number of constructive contributions, including those from IPs, is still high enough as to make (semi)protection counterproductive. But I'd suggest you guys first concentrate on getting the biographical details right, and leave the [[WP:LAME]] political issues about how to name the country for a bit later. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC) jfjfdf


I would also like to see the discussion page cleaned up as per [[Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines]]. Comments that are not in english and that are not relevant in improving the article should be removed. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 20:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:: Svik, can't you be a little informal just these two days? Can't you find little humanity in yourself for one hard moment? A great young man died today, Macedonia has lost one of her greatest men.--[[User:Strich3d|strich3D]] 21:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

==Begining of his career==
Toše began his career in 1996 on teenage festival MELFEST, not MAKFEST.
:[[User:79.125.148.42|79.125.148.42]] 21:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

== Republic of Macedonia ==

Clearly there is a lot of debate on which country he was born in. Geographically, everyone agrees that he was born in what is today known as Republic of Macedonia. On the date of his birth, his birth place was located in a country called SFR Yugoslavia. Whether it's SR Macedonia, SFR Yugoslavia or Republic of Macedonia, it should be discussed here and agreed upon before people start changing it back and forth in the article simply based on what they like more politically. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 15:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


Tose was born in 1981. In that time Republic of Macedonia was named Socialist Republic of Macedonia, becouse she was one of six countries who were in SFRY. After 1991 SR Macedonia is renamed in Republic of Macedonia. I don't see the problem here, Macedonia is Macedonia it can't be else! 23 Oct. 2007  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.125.166.180|79.125.166.180]] ([[User talk:79.125.166.180|talk]]) 00:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


Well if somebody was born in eg. 1979 in some small city in then West Germany, today we will write born in Germany. Or if somebody is born in Bratislava we wont write Socialist Czeho-Slovak Republic but we will write Republic of Slovakia, or if you were born in Moscow in 1978 you wont write Soviet Union but Russia. Thus the Proeski's birth country should be Republic of Macedonia.   <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/79.125.233.0|79.125.233.0]] ([[User talk:79.125.233.0|talk]]) 23:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP -->

Toshe was born in 1981. In that time the now-existing, independent Republic of Macedonia was named Socialist Republic of Macedonia, becouse it was only one of the six federal republics which were included in SFRY. The only independent state was SFRY, and the constituent republics were autonomous but not fully independent countries. [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 18:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

==Facts check==

Book of Mourning: I know it cause I've seen one displayed here in my home town- Belgrade (today and tomoroww till 19:00 I believe), and I have heard on the news same has been done in many other countries.[[User:Icemaja|Icemaja]] 17:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:As per [[wikipedia:Verifiability|Wiki:Verifiability]]: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed" as well as "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". You may have seen the book in Belgrade, but most people haven't seen it. There needs to be a reference for everyone reading this article to be able to confirm this information from a reliable source. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 17:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

== Birth place ==

Guys, pleaaaaase. Stop changing round the birthplace.

A reference was provided, it's the link to Proeski's own official homepage. The bio (in English) at [http://www.toseproeski-music.com/main_eng.html] calls him a "boy from Krusevo" but in the same sentence says he was "born on 25 January 1981 in Prilep". 

I don't know what the "from" in "from Krusevo" is supposed to mean if it's not where he was born; maybe he just grew up there, who knows. In any case, the birthplace seems clear.

[[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:Again I suggest (semi)protecting the page until the disputes are resolved. There have been over 200 edits of this page since yesterday and the majority did NOT contribute any new information. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 21:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

::Yeah, I see your point, but I'm still not so sure. Most of the contributions (some obvious silliness aside) still seems to be with good intentions, and quite a few of the contributions from anons are constructive. Don't worry, this will settle down in one or two days, and then it can all be cleaned up. This is what always happens when somebody prominent dies. The policy is to try and keep the articles open for editing as long as possible. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I don't understand the confusion. The information about his birthplace is clear and it's widely available. He was born in a state hospital in Prilep, because Krusevo is a small town. But his family is from Krusevo, and he also grew up in Krusevo (that's why 'a boy from Krusevo'). BTW, God have mercy upon his soul, he was the greatest, not only as a singer :( :( :( ! - [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 23:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

==Lets get it straight==
Let me help. Regarding his origin: his family lives in [[Kruševo]] where he spent most of his childhood. So he is definetly a "Kruševo boy". It may be true that he was born in the nearby bigger city of [[Prilep]], but Kruševo is definetly his 100% hometown, where after all he was buried yesterday! Regarding his country of birth, check this out: [[Robbie Williams]], [[John Lennon]], [[Mick Jagger]] and many other notable musicians are listed in their corresponding wikipedia articles as "born in / origin": '''[[England]]'''. The [[United Kingdom]] (which incl. [[England]], [[Scotland]], [[Wales]] and [[Northern Ireland]]) is not mentioned at all, although these notable persons were/are its citizens and passport holders. Check it yourself plz. Therefore, I think we dont have to necesarily include [[SFR Yugoslavia]] as a place of birth in Tose's article. Yes, we can, but we dont have to. If you decide to do so, then please first add [[United Kingdom]] in the aricles of Lennon, MCartney, Jagger and so on and so on, cause otherwise it would be a [[double standard]].--[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 00:19, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

==Removal of "Yugoslavia"==
Why should that be removed? I am puzzled [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 20:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:There is a difference between where someone is born and where they originate from. Yugoslavia might be acceptable to put by the Born tag but I don't think it should be placed by the Origin tag. Either way, there is clearly disagreement on whether Yugoslavia should be listed on there at all. Make sure that some kind of concensus is reached before editing that again. Otherwise it's going to be changed back and forth every 5 minutes. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 20:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::Putting in the Born tag is fine with me. I'd like not to revert, so can you please put it there. Also please do not threaten with continued edit waring. This is something that should be avoided. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Calm down. I'm not threatening anything. I'm stating what has been a trend so far. As soon as someone adds Yugoslavia, someone else removes it and they go back and forth. I, personally, don't even care if it says Macedonia, Yugoslavia or Former Ottoman Empire, I just want it to stop being changed every 5 minutes. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 01:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

== [[SR Macedonia]] with or without Yugoslavia? ==

Undoubtely SRM was part of SFRY, no one has problem with that fact, however I already gave an explanation: an endless list of internationaly acclaimed UK artists such as [[Mick Jagger]], [[John Lennon]], [[Jeff Beck]], [[The Beatles]], [[Robbie Williams]] and you name it are listed in Wikipedia as "born in [[England]]" without mentioning the [[United Kingdom]], although all of these artists are/were UK citizens and passport holders (England is not an independent country, theres no such thing as English passport or English army). They have [[British passport|UK passports]]. Their football team is an exception. Moreover [[Charles, Prince of Wales]] is also listed as being born in [[England]] (again UK is not mentioned), while [[Alexander Lukashenko]] is listed as born in [[Byelorussian SSR]] (not mentioning the [[Soviet Union]]). The example of [[Sean Connery]] that you provided is allright, but thats one of the rare exclusions in wikipedia (at least it seems to me so, normally I cant make a deep research on that I just gave you NOTABLE examples, if Beatles are not notable enough then I dont know). Before you put 'Yugoslavia' in every Macedonia-related article please add United Kingdom to every English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland music related articles and also put [[Soviet Union]] to every Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Kyrghystan, Latvian, Estonian, Armenian, Azeri music related article. Fair play. Otherwise, its [[double standard]]. Thank you very much.  --[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 20:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::So I fail to see any specific reason to remove Yugoslavia besides the fact that there exist some cases where the country is removed in favor of subnational entity. Why are you removing? For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK" as birthplace, and since I am not aware of a specific policy to prefer one over the other, I fail to see a reason to systematically remove information like you are trying to do. You could try instead to imporve articles by providing missing data, instead of deleting even more. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 20:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:Because its a double standard and I explained it well. In a certain way, you grant the Englishmen the right to "mark" their celebrities on wikipedia as being from [[England]] without mentioning the [[UK]], they can even freely put the white [[Flag of England]] instead of the blue [[Union Jack]] in those articles (see [[Mick Jagger]] article for instance). At the same time you insist that the Macedonian editors must put 'Yugoslavia' in all their articles. Not fair. If you really insist on objectivity, first you should correct those other articles, which are far more relevant for the international community and add [[UK]], [[Soviet Union]] respectively as I explained before. Your claim that: For every biography of a person without "UK" there are equal number of persons with "UK". First of all i dont know how you got that conclusion, and even if its true the most relevant artists are clearly listed as being from England ([[The Beatles]], [[Iron Maiden]], [[Sex Pistols]], its an endless list)  [[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::I dont grant any Englishmen any right to do anything, I fail to see how England is in any way relevant to SR Macedonia. You still have not listed a Wikipedia policy to mandate one choice over the other and you have no real arguments except listing some questionable "precedents". I do not agree with systematically deleting useful information from articles for no good reason. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::how England is relevant to this discussion? England is a constitutient country (unit) of the UK, as Belarus SSR was a federal unit of the USSR, as SRM was a federal unit in SFRY. Thats the analogy Im trying to make. BTW you havent listed a Wikipedia policy either. I wish there was one so we can solve this for once. Until then Im afraid i will be persistent in following the "English" example (again: [[The Beatles]], [[Robbie Williams]], [[Peter Gabriel]], [[Sex Pistols]], [[Brian Ferry]], [[David Bowie]] and so on and so on, there are milions of examples. And moreover, as I already mentioned, many of them bear the [[Flag of England]].[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, if I may add my opinion here: I don't think the UK/England is the best parallel, but the former Soviet republics certainly are. My impression is quite a few articles say somebody was born "in Estonia" or "in Ukraine" without adding "(then USSR)" or the like. I personally don't care very much either way, but you seem to have been adding the Yugoslavia reference specifically and systematically to Macedonian articles only. This can easily be perceived as a campaign directed at offending Macedonian editors; I would therefore ''strongly'' recommend you refrain from doing this. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
::I presume this is addressed to me. I have not so much added Yugoslavia, as to prevent it from being deleted for no good reason. Also why should adding Yugoslavia be offending? [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::Why should [[SR Macedonia]]-only be offending? [[Alexander Lukashenko]]'s article lists [[Byelorussian SSR]] only, why no one complains bout that? Who knows how many other articles like this exist, but im too tired to hunt them down for this debate[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

my mistake: it lists the Belarus SSR flag only. Still.[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Actually it says [[Soviet Union]] (no I did not change it just now). Again, nothing but vague precedent talk. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:I said. my mistake, it lists the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Byelorussian_SSR.svg Belarus SSR flag only]. Still it contributes to my point.[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::But it has a link to Soviet Union which is against your point. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, lets cut the long story short: obviously the Englishmen are tolerated in their sort of "cultural patriotism" or sorta separatism here, which is more-less allright, while at the same time [[ethnic Macedonians]] are forced to make concessions. England (which is a sub-national entity) is allright, while SRM (which was also a sub-national entity?!) is not allright. Thats called [[Double standard]]. Plz provide a clear policy and i will follow, until then theres nothing i can add in this debate. I tried to be constructive but for no avail[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 21:48, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I have no idea what you are insinuating. If you think there is a problem with the English articles I suggest you improve them, not necessarily conform Macedonian to them. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, Wikipedia is a voluntary project. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 21:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

:First, it may be informal and kinda "unencyclopedic" from me, but ForeignerFromTheEast can you leave Tose's soul alone and stop your '''obvious''' campaign pointed against his article and the other Macedonian music-related articles? Second, regarding the SRM/Yugoslavia issue everything was well explained to you 3 times minimum. Re-read above.[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 22:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

== Photos ==

I see the photo on this article is marked for deletion. There are some CC photos available on flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stojance/tags/toseproeski/ and
http://www.flickr.com/photos/86533211@N00/1623033266/
Maybe these can be used for the article. [[User:Novica|Novica]] 11:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

== Ethnic background ==

The statement that he had an Aromanian family background needs sourcing, or it goes out. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 17:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
: http://star.vecer.com.mk/tekst.asp?tid=20645 - there is some reference here about that. This is a part of an interview Toshe gave to a serbian newspaper. He says that his grandfather's surname was Proja. This is regarded as Vlach surname.  <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Novica|Novica]] ([[User talk:Novica|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Novica|contribs]]) 17:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::Ok, he was an Aromanian, but why should that be mentioned in the opening text, especially knowing the fact that he never spoke of his ethnicity and he regarded himself simply as a Macedonian singer? Nevertheless, it's a fact and it deserves its place in such an encyclopedia article, but that goes in some subsection of the section 'Biography', not in the opening text. I ''have'' to add something more: my God, do you have to make '''everything''' a controversy, especially including nationalism (anti-Macedonian in most cases)?!? [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 18:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I've removed it from the lead; you're right about that; there's even a policy somewhere saying that lead sections shouldn't give undue weight to a person's ethnic background unless that background is of crucial importance for their notability - which is clearly not the case here. I can't read the interview linked to above, but does it really provide enough info? Having one of your four grandparents with an X-sounding name is not the same thing as being X yourself. Can we get something better? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 18:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont have a problem with the claims about an [[Aromanian]] ethnicity as long as they are '''sourced properly'''. Actually once I saw him on the 2nd national channel of the Macedonian national TV speaking in Vlach language. he also recorded a Vlach folk song. I've no problem with that, BUT I dont have and no one else has a source to provide so far. He died three days ago and already we see certain individuals speculating about his ethnicity, his place of birth and what not. Shame.. really shame[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 01:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

ps. I checked the [http://star.vecer.com.mk/tekst.asp?tid=20645 ''Večer'' Newspaper article], it does contribute to the claims about the Aromanian origin, but its not enough. It does not specificaly mention the [[Aromanian]] ([[Vlach]]) etnicity like "IM VLACH. Full stop". just it says (something like): ''I want to change my current surname back to my old family's surname. My granfather's surname was Proja'' (pronounced as Proya) and so on. Ok, it makes sence but I think that more info is required.[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 02:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

== Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations ==

Regarding [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags)#Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations]], I explained it well above (the problem is that some individuals dont want to read that). If [[Mick Jagger]] or [[Brian Ferry]] and many other notable UK(English)) artists can have the [[Flag of England]] (which is a '''non-souvereign state''' but a unit of the [[UK]]), if [[Alexander Lukashenko]] article bears the flag of the [[Byelorussian SSR]] only (which is a non-sovereign state as well), then we Macedonians from [[Republic of Macedonia]] (formerly [[SR Macedonia]]) have every right to use our [[SR Macedonia]] flag although it was a state symbol of a non-sovereign state and a sub-national entity. Why should the English people be treated as [[Ubermensch]] here? If they can be English instead of UK (British), allright, but we want the same standard for us. if you want to build an encyclopedia, stay away from [[double standards]].[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 01:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

:Practically Wikipedia doesn't have one standard in such cases. About [[Mick Jagger]] it is written

:* {{flagicon|England}} [[Dartford]], [[Kent]], [[England]]

:while the data about [[Alexander Lukashenko]] contains information about a '''former''' state, the [[USSR]], its '''former''' federal unit, the [[Byelorussian SSR]], and its '''former''' flag:

:* {{flagicon|Byelorussian SSR}} [[Kopys]], [[Byelorussian SSR]], [[Soviet Union]].

:As you could see, the accusation of double standards is irrelevant. Moreover, in the article [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags)#Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations]] it is stated "''In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state (e.g. the United States of America or Canada) not of a subnational entity...''" (Note, I'm not the author of that particular principle!) The [[Socialist Republic of Macedonia]] was "subnational entity", it was a federal unit of a former [[Sovereignty|sovereign state]], called [[Yugoslavia]]. Greetings, [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 06:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

aha so there's no standard? good, we'll put what we bloody want. like the '''sub-national''' Englishmen from the [[UK]] do.[[User:Zorla|Zorla]] 10:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
::I have not hear a single reason why should the SR Macedonia flag be used, independent of what the English have done. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 17:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


:::<s>The entire entity is one big mess. Flags simply get in the way of things, and personally, I'd vote against their use. I mean, you have a section called ORIGIN, what the hell does than mean? You give a person's place of birth in a relevant section, so why add origin? People often use this to give the closest approximate country regarding the ethnicity. In some boxes where there is no "place of birth" entity, ORIGIN takes that place; but what about where ''origin'' and ''place of birth'' occur? Furthermore, what shall we put as the origin when dealing with someone who hasn't spent his/her entire life fixed to one location; or if he/she was born outside of the area relevant to their background '''and''' place of notability? It matters very little that Joe Strummer was born in Ankara, except that his parents were British diplomats. The way to resolve the SR Macedonia flag issue is that it should be presented like Lukashenko's entry: alongside the ''sovereign'' flag. That way it won't hurt anyone. I will stand by the use of ''Yugoslavia'' or ''SFRJ'' etc. in the title because it was the country of birth. Best thing to do: don't display '''SR''' before Macedonia, pipelink it as [SR Macedonia|Macedonia]; then state "Yugoslavia" in parenthesis, or as part of main text. [[User:Evlekis|Evlekis]] 09:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)</s> <small>Blocked sock:[[User:Evlekis|<b>Evlekis</b>]].</small>
::::I agree. It could also be "then part of Yugoslavia". But Yugoslavia has to be mentioned. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 17:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

== Arbitrary revertions ==

Wickedpedian stop your impulsive vandalic revertions once for all. control yourself. not only that you remove the content you disagree with, but also some non-disputed edits become collateral damage because of you. Just one example: in the version you revert to over and over, the official website url has a typo (check history versions). It should be www.toseproeski.info not TOESproeski.info. Obviously you do not doublecheck the text before clicking the "undo" button. Lets face it, you are not good at this, just leave it[[User:209.87.243.254|209.87.243.254]] 01:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:First, I haven't made any "impulsive vandalic revertions", I made reverts only twice in accordance with the rules of Wikipedia, explained in the discussion above. Second, I'm not the author of the mistaken "tOEsproeski", unfortunately I repeated it without noticing it. Third, stop trolling! - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 11:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::Fourth, Macedonia is no longer the Socialist Republic of Macedonia!

:::Of course not, but in the times of Proeski's yuth it was still federal unit of Yugoslavia under the constitutional name Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Therefore his origin is from that former historical entity, not from later emerged sovereign state Republic of Macedonia. Proeski was 10 years old when Yugoslav Socialist Republic of Macedonia proclaimed independency under its present constitutional name Republic of Macedonia. End of the speculations! - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 13:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I've made a proposal for consensus, which reflects Proeski's dual origin, Yugoslav and Macedonian:

:::*Origin {{flagicon|Republic of Macedonia|1947}} [[Krushevo]], [[Socialist Republic of Macedonia]], nowadays in [[Republic of Macedonia]]

:::I hope this variant will satisfy all sides. - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 14:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I don't see the actual problem here. And which ''sides'' are included in ''what''? [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 15:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Origin doesn't have to mean "youth", it can also refer to the country he originated from, i.e. present day Republic of Macedonia.

:But how could he originate from a country which was created 10 years after his birth? This is ridiculous. He originates from former Yugoslavia, and more precisely from its federal unit called Socialist Republic of Macedonia. - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 17:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==Genres==
Why aren't [[Ethnic Macedonian music#Traditional music of ethnic Macedonians|Macedonian folk music]] and [[Classical music]] included in Genres? Please don't tell me that someone here doubts that (Toshe had a whole album with folk songs BTW). Anyone, respond! [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 15:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:AFAIK, before 1920ies the dominant ethnic self-identification of Macedonian Slavs was Bulgarian. The Slav folk songs from Macedonia originated from a period in which mass ethnic Macedonian identity didn't exist. Don't forget the collection "Bulgarian Folk Songs" of [[Miladinov Brothers]] from 1861, other Bulgarian folklore collections of [[Kuzman Shapkarev]], [[Marko Cepenkov]], etc. The term "Macedonian folk music" is problematic. Most of the popular folk songs from Macedonia are sung in Bulgaria as well. - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::Well, AFAYK is just not enough. The term ''Bulgarian'' meant a completely different thing in those times and shouldn't be confused with the modern [[Bulgaria]]n state. The self-identification of the [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonians]] has nothing to do with that term (Although it's not true that the dominant self-identification before the 1920ies was Bulgarian! Only according to Bulgaria and similar sources!). But why on earth should that be a problem? That's not something that we should discuss on this talk page. It's true that most of the popular Macedonian folk songs are also sung in Bulgaria, but they are Macedonian (since they originate from the people in Macedonia, and today, that nation is recognised by everyone, except ''you know who''). Today, there is a modern [[Republic of Macedonia|Macedonian]] state, and ''Macedonian folk songs'' refers to the folk songs of the people originating from that country. After all, your answer was quite unsatisfactory, here's why: we all agree that the term "Macedonian folk music" absolutely applies for (e.g.) the song "Jovano, Jovanke"; Toshe recorded another version of that song -> Toshe recorded an album with such songs - > Toshe recorded an album with Macedonian folk music. Eh? [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 16:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:Dear INkubusse, don't you think it is not too seroius to assert that "''The term ''Bulgarian'' meant a completely different thing in those times and shouldn't be confused with the modern [[Bulgaria]]n state.''" when Miladinov Brothers, Kuzman Shapkarev, Marko Cepenkov, etc. undoubtedly declared themselves namely as ethnic Bulgarians? Moreover, according to these Bulgarian folklorists from Macedonia the whole Slav Macedonian population was Bulgarian in ethnic meaning, check the preface to Miladinov's collection "Bulgarian Folk Songs" for example. This  collection was published in 1861 before the creation of Bulgarian state in 1878 and therefore this state had nothing to do with its publication. Don't be ridiculous and speculative. - [[User:Wickedpedian|Wickedpedian]] 17:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

iNkubusse, I already added the Macedonian folk music. For some that may object that we should add the general terms [[folk music]] only or [[traditional music]] only (regardless of ethnicity, the general musical genres), I will point out to Esma's article, her infobox contains not only the general terms trad. and folk music but also the ethnic [[Romani music]]. [[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 18:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, Tose not only recorded traditional ETHNIC MACEDONIAN folk songs in MACEDONIAN language but also in Aromanian. While the first onme qualifies for Ethnic Macedonian music, both qualify for Macedonian folklore music in the regional meaning- Macedonia (region). kako i da go vrtis pak e dobro.Its MACEDONIAN music [[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 18:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

::I'm not speculative you chauvinistic troll! Stop the sarcasm and don't call me ''dear'', please. The only reason why I will stop this is the respect I have for Toshe. This is not the place for telling the world that we are all Bulgarians! And I'll take that ''ridiculous'' as an offence. I have to say, though, that the Miladinov brothers "declared" themselves as Bulgarians, but not as modern Bulgarians. Just like Alexander the Great was Macedonian, not modern Macedonian. Miladinovs were poets and they're not expected to have thought about national identity. Now, I'm glad " Traditional Macedonian music" was included in the article... [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 18:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

INkubusse, stop "negotiating" with people who are openly destructive specificaly towards Macedonian articles. Whatever they do- revert. They block us- others from Macedonia will come. They'll protect the artcile, we'll attack the Bulgarian articles, they'll protect them- we'll attack the American articles if needed. The admins are bribed anyway or I dunno. We tolerated too much, but after they messed with TOSHKA, no more Mr. Nice guy[[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 18:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:I'm afraid you don't get the point, [[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]]. Wikipedia is not about warring (well, at least it shouldn't be). And I just '''won't''' do what ''they'' do. And ''they'' means ''the people who are openly destructive specificaly towards Macedonian articles''. [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 18:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

of course it is about warring. thats how they took control over all of our history articles. i dont care bout that, wikipedia lost its credibility long time ago, no one trusts it anyway. try to post a wikipedia link in some debate in some forum be it american or russian or french or whatever, they'll laugh at your "argument" :))). But TOSHE is something else. They'll burn in hell for this. Guaranteed [[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 19:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

ah, yes, and INkubusse, the admins are obviously bribed or misleaded. they never punish them only us. several mac articles were protected because of edit warring BUT were reverted prior protecting to pro-bulgarian or pro-greek versions (blatant example: [[Krste Misirkov]]). if admins do not follow the rulez why should I?[[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 19:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:Because they'll block you... Maybe... :D No, really, I'm familiar with the situation, and I don't quite agree. It's true that they are warring, that's their sole purpose here, but I refuse to do what they do. It's that simple. And PLEASE, stop this kind of talks on this talk page. I feel sick when I think about Toshe's death, how miserable :( [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 19:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

== Conclusion ==

Check the articles about:

*[[Constantine Karamanlis]] (famous Greek politician). The infobox says born in [[Greece]] (feat. the modern day [[Greek flag]]), although he was actually born in the region of Macedonia under Otttoman rule in 1907 when Greece didnt have souveregnity over [[Greek Macedonia]] (they got it in 1912 in the [[Balkan Wars]]). When some people tried to correct that infobox they were immediatly reverted by the greek editors. 
*[[Ivan Vazov]] (famous Bulgarian) was saying  "born in Bulgaria". Ottoman Empire was not mentioned as a country of birth and there are no flags. Again, someone tried to correct that, and was reverted immediatly. Now it mentions both Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire, however for the Macedonian persons ussualy ONLY OTTOMAN EMPIRE is used without any mentioning of "Macedonia (region)" (see [[Krste Misirkov]]), where only [[Greek Macedonia]] is mentioned to please the greek editors.
*[[Vasil Levski]] (famous Bulgarian), when someone has added that he was born and died in Ottoman Empire (FACT) with the appropriate flags , that was also removed/modified. See history versions. Now it has Ottoman Empire without the flags.

CONCLUSION: its not'''"who is right"''', its '''"who has more meatpuppets"''' to revert the article over and over without being blocked. 

Wickedpedian, ForeignerFromEast and others, with your impulsive, destructive and nationalistic motivated revertions and most of all, for your senceless and irresponsible editing of a recently diseased person's article, you lost all your credibility. Whatever you do, you will be reverted over and over and over until the end of time. Your arguments are no longer valid and will be ignored. Full stop. The others: Add the flags of Republic of Macedonia over and over to every Macedonian related articles as in the case of the English musicians and greek politicians (example: [[Constantine Karamanlis]]). Its time to claim our culture back. [[User:Poniranje|Poniranje]] 18:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

==Warning==

:Guys, for the love of God, stop it, now.

:I have kept this article unprotected so far, because there still seem to be genuine, good-faith newcomers trying to edit it, including constructive anon IP users. Since these people should feel welcome here, and since we respect their desire to pay hommage to the dead singer, this article should remain open for editing. 

:However, starting a nationalist edit-war about symbolisms such as flags in infoboxes, while the intense emotional input from newcomers is still ongoing, and then spreading it to a host of other articles, is an absolutely fricking shame beyond description. While much of the recent disruption has come from socks and meatpuppets on the Macedonian side, I cannot help but lay the blame for the overall escalation of this situation at the feet of the Bulgarian contributors, who are experienced editors and should have known better. Instigating this edit-war at this particular moment was an act either of barbaric insensivity, or of downright  willful trolling. 

:I expect that you all will keep away from making contentious edits about these flag/country issues, on this article as well as all the others, for at least the next few weeks. If I see any continuation of edit-warring, and be it only a single non-cooperative edit, I will be handing out blocks ranging from one month upwards against ''everybody'' involved. Obvious sock-/meatpuppet new accounts engaging in such edits will be indef-blocked on sight. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
::This will certainly favor sockpuppetry with open proxies rather than people committed to a single account. [[User:ForeignerFromTheEast|ForeignerFromTheEast]] 20:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with you Future Perfect when you say that most of the edits are "geniune", in "good faith" or constructive. Some of them are but most of them are not. If you feel like looking at the last 50 edits you will find no more than a handful that contributed any new information. The vast majority are bickerings over 2 main issues: origin and place of birth. This warring contributes absolutely nothing and I guarantee you that you won't be able to block users as quickly as someone new can come along and do the same thing. Eventually, after you don't feel like handing out blocks, you'll agree that this article needs to be protected until disputes are resolved. The simple fact of the matter is that he's been dead for a week and there doesn't seem to be anything else of any significant importance that hasn't been said yet. Once the disputes are resolved, we can unprotect the article and retroactively add any information that becomes available in the meantime. By protecting the article, all these people involved in edit and revert warring will be forced to discuss their points if they really believe that their points are valid. Otherwise, this will continue. This article is seing more warring than the perennial favourite George W. Bush article. There have been just about 500 edits since October 16. I say protect it. If others don't agree that's fine but don't dismiss me again by saying that it isn't that bad. It is. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 20:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
:Hmm, after looking at it again, it does appear you may be right. The last constructive edit seems to have been more than 24h ago. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

:: I can't beleive. You have bulgarised even article about Tose Proeski, a great man died, can't you keep your propaganda behind the door for a moment? Can't stop for a single moment, can't you? All bulgarians should go to psychologist to cure their national inferiority complex. You really have a problem guys.--[[User:Strich3d|strich3D]] 20:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Stop making personal attacks, Strich3d.[[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 03:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

::::Eh, I don't think it was a personal attack (except for the ''psychologist'' part :D). Maybe ''they'' should, in fact, think for a moment what he meant to say. If one looks into ''their'' contributions, they should find that most of them include adding something Bulgarian in articles about Macedonia. It's rather... peculiar. But this is not the place for that sort of conversation. ''Ignore this'' please :D [[User:INkubusse|<span style="color:#f00">i<span style="color:#f70">Nk<span style="color:#fb0">u<span style="color:#fc0">b</span>u</span>ss</span>e</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:INkubusse|<i>?</i>]]</sup> 07:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

unfortunately Strich3d's reaction is completely normal after all these abnormal things we could witness here on wikipedia regarding the macedonian articles. A complete defamation of the whole Macedonian nation, its history, culture and now even the popular culture. complete madness. in this case Strich3d's is like that kid from the ''[[Emperor's New Clothes]]''. He says what everyone's afraid to say. "The King is naked!". The utopia called Wikipedia is falling apart. and why? because of a blatant abuse of the sytem by these 2-3 Bulgarian chauvinists. First of all, they give their own people a bad name by doing this. If nothing else, at least they could leave Tose alone, poor kid. Shame... --[[User:Dzole|Dzole]] 09:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

== Shortening the lists of names ==

The opening section of this article contains a mention of 11 artists' names that he collaborated with on musical projects. The section on his funeral lists 14 artists' names and 6 politicians' names. Is it really necessary to have a full list of names or would everyone agree to shorten it to something along the lines of "He collaborated with many artists from across the Balkan area" and "Many artists from the Balkan area as well as several high ranking politicians from the region attended the funeral"? As an example of what I mean, [[Josip Broz Tito|Tito's]] funeral was attended by the heads of state of over 100 countries yet his wikipedia entry simply states "His funeral drew many world statesmen". [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 18:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

in my opinion you should leave it. it shows how highly acclaimed he was.  --[[User:Dzole|Dzole]] 23:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
:No doubt he was highly acclaimed but Tito's funeral was much larger without names of attendees being listed and John Lennon collaborated with way more artists and none of those are listed in the opening paragraph either. Even though he was famous and well respected, he's getting more notice for his work and funeral than some other people who were much more famous than him. I'm just suggesting that we not use preferrential treatment for Tose just because we used to listen to his music. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] 00:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

well actually i wasnt listening to his music, but still i have a great respect for him. anyway I dont know really, IMHO I think the best is to leave the article as it is, there were enough troubles with it already. others will come and share their opinion i suppose --[[User:Dzole|Dzole]] 00:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

:The list of names is bad in the lead (see[[WP:LEAD]]); it barely pertains to his career. It could make sense if he were, say, a professional guitarist ("a hired gun"), but not for a singer-songwriter. I'm moving it below. [[User:Duja|Duja]]<span style="font-size:70%;">[[User talk:Duja|►]]</span> 14:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

== You tube link removal ==

1 link removed - TV footage - No indication from clip information or uploader profile, that uploader has rights to footage concerned or
is connected with the production entities that would be responsible for it.
[[User:Sfan00 IMG|Sfan00 IMG]] ([[User talk:Sfan00 IMG|talk]]) 13:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

::documentaries and interviews given in the (electronic) media '''can''' be used as a source. For example [[The Beatles]] article has a reference to a [[rockumentary]] (see Hamburg section) --[[User:Dzole|Dzole]] ([[User talk:Dzole|talk]]) 22:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

== 3 external links to memorial sites??? ==

That's about 2 too many. [[User:SWik78|SWik78]] ([[User talk:SWik78|talk]]) 21:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

== Sinot Božji ==

Is that album title in Serbian or Macedonian?
"Sin" It has a definite article like Macedonian, but "Bog" has a declension like Serbian.
'''[[User:BalkanFever|<span style="color:black;">Balkan</span>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<span style="color:#008;">Fever</span>]]''' 01:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
: It’s not a declension, it’s an adjective meaning "belonging to God". — [[User:Svetko|Svetko]] ([[User talk:Svetko|talk]]) 10:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
::Indeed it is. Thank you. '''[[User:BalkanFever|<span style="color:black;">Balkan</span>]][[User talk:BalkanFever|<span style="color:#008;">Fever</span>]]''' 11:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

== Death ==

I heard that he died after 50 minutes in a hospital. Could anyone look up this? -- [[User:Samoborac|Samoborac]] ([[User talk:Samoborac|talk]]) 18:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

==Aromanian Macedonian==

Isn't he an aromanian from macedonia? here a link that says the same
http://nt.krusevo.org/content/view/39/48/lang,mk/
Тоше Проески (25 јануари 1981-16 октомври 2007), роден како Тодор Проески во Прилеп, во влашко семејство

[[User:Zna|Zna]] ([[User talk:Zna|talk]]) 02:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

: He may well have been, but we never found good [[WP:RS|reliable sourcing]] for such s statement. The page you link to is just a copy from the Macedonian Wikipedia article, hence not itself a reliable source. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
::I have found reliable source for Toshe's Aromanian background: Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Historical Dictionaries of Europe, Dimitar Bechev, Scarecrow Press, 2009, {{ISBN|0810862956}}, [http://books.google.bg/books?id=ilGfCIF4Ao4C&pg=PA234&dq=Manaki+brothers+vlach&hl=bg&sa=X&ei=SJ_CUfbmHIj-OfPggaAE&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Manaki%20brothers%20vlach&f=false p. 234.] [[User:Jingiby|Jingiby]] ([[User talk:Jingiby|talk]]) 06:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

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== Chart data ==

From where did you get data about chart positions of Tose's songs? [[Special:Contributions/109.93.33.90|109.93.33.90]] ([[User talk:109.93.33.90|talk]]) 22:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on [[Toše Proeski]]. Please take a moment to review [[special:diff/813685027|my edit]]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit [[User:Cyberpower678/FaQs#InternetArchiveBot|this simple FaQ]] for additional information. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071020021340/http://vlada.mk/english/News/October2007/ei17-10-2007.htm to http://www.vlada.mk/english/News/October2007/ei17-10-2007.htm
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120311021216/http://intervjua.com.mk/mk/zapis.asp?id=1306&kategorija=1 to http://intervjua.com.mk/mk/zapis.asp?id=1306&kategorija=1
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071020031318/http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/bih/sarajevo/tuga-ispred-doma-mladih to http://www.dnevniavaz.ba/bih/sarajevo/tuga-ispred-doma-mladih

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