Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Asgardian

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 06:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 21:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC).

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• Asgardian (talk · contribs · logs)

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Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Asgardian is an editor who is knowledgeable in his primary field of focus, comic books, and has shown the ability to research and work hard to write and improve articles. In that sense, he is valuable to the Comics Wikiproject and Wikipedia as a whole. However, a number of editors have found it difficult and frustrating to work with him on the articles he chooses to volunteer his time at, for a variety of reasons detailed below. Some of the editors of the Comics Wikiproject, and editors who work on comic book related articles, feel that certain aspects of Asgardian's approach are disruptive.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

We would like to see Asgardian work with a more collaborative and less controlling spirit. If that does not happen, then perhaps mediation may be in order; if that does not work, then editors may need to seek sanctions through arbitration. As Tenebrae puts things, "we see hope and potential in Asgardian and are genuinely trying to work with him to encourage the better angels of his nature".

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}

Disclaimer: Much of the behavior described below may describe not only Asgardian but sometimes other editors involved in disputes with him as well, in "it takes two to tango" situations. Often enough, it is not black and white, as Asgardian is not the "bad guy" while the other editor is not the "good guy" –those roles are not always so easily defined. However, given the sheer number of disputes that Asgardian has been involved in over the past few years with multiple editors, it is very concerning that he seems to be the common denominator.

Asgardian has been accused of taking ownership of certain articles. That is, once he begins to clean up an article in a manner he finds satisfactory, he leaves other editors feeling that he will only "allow" changes that he agrees with. Asgardian denies this practice, however, feeling that the version of the article he promotes is the "correct" (sometimes posited as "wiki-correct") version. He has made statements such as "this article is almost complete", which have been read as him thinking he is the only one to judge how an article should look, rather than him being one collaborator amongst the whole. He and another editor have recently been page banned from two articles (Abomination (comics) and Rhino (comics)) for a month period.

Asgardian is often involved in what appears to be edit-warring with other editors. As seen in the evidence below, he will undo someone else's changes when he disagrees with changes that have been made, which is only acceptable to a degree under the provisions of WP:BRD. Asgardian feels that he is not edit-warring, because either his changes do not comprise a true revert (such as reverting to his prior preferred version, but making some other changes as well), or because he feels the other person was wrong in the first place. While neither of these actions are wrong per se, they will often occur multiple times in succession on the same article, and often over a period of time. Numerous examples can be found by examining patterns in the edit histories of articles such as Juggernaut (comics), Galactus, Dormammu, and Mephisto (comics).

Asgardian often uses incomplete or inaccurate edit summaries to describe his changes. That is, he will use no summary at all, or a brief edit summary that describes only a small portion of the changes he is making, while the rest of his edit will make significant changes to the article – often reverting parts of the text that other editor(s) have made. Asgardian also makes comments, sometimes negative in tone, about other editors in his edit summaries.

It has been suggested that Asgardian has gamed the system at times. For example, Asgardian will sometimes enter into a discussion with the aggrieved editors he is engaged with, but even after discussion he will sometimes resume with the prior behavior on at least part of the article when it appears the disagreeable editor may have lost interest in continuing the debate. Sometimes when he interprets policies and guidelines in his own way and acts upon them, he discards input from other editors. Sometimes he is warned to disengage from a certain activity and will try to find a way around the warning to continue doing as he wishes.

When a consensus seems to have formed regarding a certain approach towards a style guideline, editing practice, etc, or perhaps what is to be done in a specific case on one article, Asgardian has been said to act against that consensus. That is, if say a few editors on an article's talk page have agreed that this article should contain "Foo", Asgardian has been observed to remove "Foo" regardless (or remove it when others agree to keep it, or what have you).

Sometimes Asgardian will edit anonymously, making the same sort of edits he does to the same articles he has been observed to work on, and continuing the same behaviors as described above. When questioned about this, Asgardian states that this anonymous editing is not intentional, and that his computer timed out and logged him out. He has used one known alternate account, User:Obsidianblackboard, to continue editing when he was temporarily blocked.

Asgardian has removed maintenance templates numerous times, claiming that they are not needed despite other editors claiming that the issues have not been resolved. When another editor places the templates back on, he will often remove them again, sometimes along with a significant edit to the rest of the article and often with an incomplete edit summary.

In one particularly contentious instance, Asgardian admitted that he "deliberately wrote an article (Abomination) in the in-sentence style and it becomes dry, didactic and hard to read." In this case, the article in question was rewritten by Asgardian in a style that was protested against by multiple editors (including myself), and the above admission has been viewed as indicating that he was deliberately editing against consensus to prove a WP:POINT.

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

1. Edit warring (both full reverts and partial reverts): [1], [2], and [3] at Awesome Android; [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], and [10] at Dormammu; [11], [12], [13], [14], [15] on Red Hulk; [16], [17], [18] (Dormammu again)
2. Incomplete/inaccurate edit summaries: [19] (logs in to revert the bot's reversions of his edits as an IP), [20], [21], [22]
3. Reverting to "Wiki-correct version": [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28]
4. Removal of maintenance tags as part of a larger edit: [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34]
5. Alleged ownership claims: [35] ("article is almost complete"), [36] ("It took hours to complete Abomination, and Rhino was in fact almost finished"), [37] ("one article as finished and supported by others and the other was one session from being completed")
6. Apparent incivility towards other users: [38], [39], [40], [41]
7. Please note that this page contains additional testominials which may be helpful to review; far more content than could be reasonably copied to the RFC page

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. WP:OWN
2. WP:WAR
3. WP:CONSENSUS
4. WP:EDSUM
5. WP:CIVIL

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

1. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae
2. Talk page discussion:Secret Wars
3. Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Asgardian-Tenebrae#Request for clarification: Asgardian-Tenebrae
4. Talk:Awesome Android#Reverted Asgardian, and why
5. Talk:Red Hulk#Recent edits
6. [42], [43]

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. BOZ (talk) 06:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
2. Dream Focus 06:49, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
3. Dave (talk) 13:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
4. Tenebrae (talk) 03:49, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
5. ThuranX (talk) 16:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
6. J Greb (talk) 15:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
7. Nightscream (talk) 03:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. Daniel Case (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
2. Dayewalker (talk) 07:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

Clarification by User:Ikip

See the talk page for the same evidence section, but without the need to click the links.

Outside view by User:Scott Free

I briefly checked out a couple of articles, I think the Rhino & Abomination - and basically, it looks to me that Asgardian is doing decent work and has gotten into some disagreements with mainly less experienced users. Overall, Asg. seems to do a lot of plot summaries and characters descriptions - and the writing is at least organized and understandable to me(and I'm not even familiar with current superheroes). So overall, his work has improved a lot of neglected articles of some secondary characters. I'm not sure he'd get the same complaints if he was doing that type of work in the film or novels projects. There's a lot of strict focusing on correct formatting among the comics people that you don't generally see elsewhere.

Basically my suggestion is to discuss content more. You can have all the adminstrative dispute resolution procedures you want, but when they're over, it still remains for two sides to reach an agreement about specific content- and neither party should expect to have everything they want. There has to be some concessions on both sides. For example, explain why such and such addition improves the article in terms of content. Avoid criticizing people, ad hominem logical fallacies and just try and work the article in a logical manner.

So really, I think it would be better to look at it in a case by case scenario - (and also work on diplomatically explaining how the comics project functions to newer users). Like if there's a problem at an article, just work it out, like 'OK let's list six powers' 'Maybe six powers is redundant, let's list four powers'. 'That episode is important because it affects later events, but maybe two paragraphs is too much, let's try and say it one paragraph or this section needs expanding, etc....' In a way it's understandable that Asg. gets complaints; because he gets his feet wet and does add a lot of content to articles, but they're usually not major articles, and they don't necessarily have a lot of traffic.

PS. Here's a template that might help - if there's an article that is being revised - Asg. or whoever might want to put this up - so people know what's going on -

Users who endorse this summary:

1. --Scott Free (talk) 07:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Extra Clarification

OK - On the Bizarro article Asg. put the under construction template - (meaning that he's doing revisions) - which is a good step - I think - to avoid further misunderstandings - here are a few more suggestions -

1- Try to avoid doing blow-by-blow reversions behind his edits - wait a while - look a the changes in a larger context -

2- Stop accusing of minute violations - it's a genereal revision process - wait to look at the finished results - don't worry about edit descriptions - edit descriptions, in this context are pretty redundant - just look at the diffs.

3- Asg. - it would be good etiquette, if you do major revisions, to leave a note on the talk page - it doesn't have to be long - just explain what you feel needs fixing - how you're proceeding - and how long, roughly it should take.

I don't see any fundamental problems with this situation - one editor choses to do revisions which is their right - and another editor is just disagreeing with the edits - it's up to them to work it out productively - discuss - work it out in terms of content.

--Scott Free (talk) 22:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Involved view by User:Nightscream

I was asked to comment here by User:BOZ. I've never participated in one of these RfC's before, and I don't know what the prescribed scope is for the examples you wish to know about, so I'll focus on four incidents from the past 15 months:

Example 1. Asgardian has expressed a personal aesthetic against mentioning the titles of books, storylines or issue numbers in comic book-related articles. In September 2008, he attempted to remove them from the Black Bolt article. I attempted to discuss it with him on that article's Talk Page. Reading that discussion should illustrate the type of behavior he displays when people attempt to talk to him. In this discussion, he attempted to use WP:CRYSTAL to justify his removal of this material, and as you can see, I refuted this claim. He tried to claim that articles have to be written in-universe, and I corrected him by pointing out that the opposite is true. I pointed out that he made assertions in his Edit Summaries that such things could not be mentioned in the sections in question, and challenged him to justify this. He reacted to administrator warnings I placed on his Talk Page by saying, "Finally, please, no more threats," as if placing such warnings is not a legitimate purview of administrators for disruptive behavior. (Had he explained why the warnings were not justified, that would be fine, but he does not do this; he simply acts as if he can dismiss legitimate legitimate policy-based attempts to address violations of site guideline, as this was not the first time he had done this.) I also show how he made personal comments directed to me during this matter. Ultimately he left me a message saying he would request another opinion on the matter, but then abandoned this, as we never heard back from him on this matter. He also ignores/blanks attempts on his Talk Page to contact him in such matters, often without responding to them. This is part of his overall pattern of evading the collaborative process in favor of making unilateral edits, against attempts to discuss, and in contrary to consensus.

Example 2. The next example is the ANI review of my block of Asgardian in February 2009, his fifth one overall, which was, IMO, incorrectly reversed. Here I detail, with copious Diffs, many examples of his behavior. Of particular interest is the Points of Contention section, because I respond to a number of Asgardian's lies, his use of logical fallacies, double-standards, etc. It's a lot to slog through, and I apologize, but the amount of material is determined by what Asgardian provides us. If you go through it and verify the Diffs (there may be an error or two on my part), they may prove valuable. One important point is that he claimed that there was a discussion on the Comics Project page that supported his practice of removing titles and issue numbers from articles. (He had abandoned his attempts to use WP:CRYSTAL to justify this personal whim of his, and was now attempting this new line of reasoning.) I went to that discussion page and saw no such thing, so I asked the participants on that page (scroll down to my 2.13.09 post) about Asgardian's assertion, and they made it clear to me that they had never discussed this matter at all (disproving Asgardian's assertion), and when I brought up the matter, they agreed that it was perfectly reasonable to occasionally mention important book and story titles and issue numbers in comic book-related articles. A total of four people agreed on this point.

Example 3. Then there's the Red Hulk matter from late August-September 2009. During this again began reverting titles, issue numbers, etc., from the article. I tried to talk to him about this, but he ignored me. Despite the earlier Project Page discussion, I started a second one on that topic on the Red Hulk Talk Page in order to accomodate him. I contacted over 20 people to invite them to it (adhering to WP:CANVAS), but only three showed up, not counting Asgardian. Again, four people (though not the same four as in February) agreed that occasionally mentioning important book titles or issue numbers was reasonable. Despite this, Asgardian continued reverting the article against the wishes of these four people, and while the discussion was ongoing, despite the fact that he was aware that this was a violation of Wikipedia's collaboration policies, as he had been blocked for this before. He insisted on September 3 that we needed yet another discussion to bring it to a wider audience, so I again went to the Comics Project page. He was again arguing against a "laundry list" or "minefield" of dates and issue numbers that he felt would make the article unreadable. I tried to point out that no one favored this, but only mentioning them occasionally, which was not a "minefield" or "laundry list", and was a nice middle ground between that and not mentioning them at all. When I tried to ask him on September 3 if he understood this, he refused to answer this, saying we should discuss that on the Comics Project page. He never answered this question there either. I should also mention that during the course of this, I protected the article in order to encourage discussion and consensus. It was opined by the others that I shouldn't have done this because I was involved. I apologized for this, having not known that it would matter (though I've since heard contrary opinions on this). In any event Administrator Mangojuice tried to desysop me for this on the AN Board. Here is my post in which I defend myself (I was not desysopped, and Mangojuice apologized to me for this), and in so doing, I detail Asgardian's behavior with respect to ownership of articles and consensus. Unfortunately, the two other admins that in that matter, Mangojuice and Xeno, exercised poor judgment in their refusal to find any fault with Asgardian, with Mangojuice claiming that no evidence was presented that he did anything wrong, even though I furnished him with the relevant Diffs. They indicated that four people was not a consensus, completely ignoring the fact that even if this were true, he still reverted during a discussion. When I attempted to address this on the ANI board, they refused to address the matter, claiming that the matter was settled--even though the issue over my page protection and Asgardian's reverts during discussion were two separate issues. Apparently they figured that resolving one issue somehow served to resolved a completely unrelated one simply because they originated from the same edit dispute. Xeno claimed that this was better handled at the then-ongoing discussion over titles and issue numbers, despite the fact that that content discussion and a discussion over an editor's behavior were obviously two separate things. Asgardian, again tried to make the matter about me, claiming that the discussion should be on my aforementioned error in protecting the article, even though that matter had been resolved. (Not surprisingly, he cited Mangojuice's statement that he did nothing wrong, but had no difficulty in ignoring Mangojuice's statement that my page protection matter was settled.) Asgardian also claimed that he was willing to discuss the issue of titles and dates on Red Hulk when he had stated the opposite previously, that my attempt to address this matter there was "not conduct becoming an administrator", and that I was being "abusive" and "uncivil" because of the criticisms I leveled at him for his behavior (this is another common tactic of his).

Example 4. Last, Asgardian claimed in October that he doesn't "ever" make blind reverts. In fact, here is one example in which he did do so, during the aforementioned Red Hulk matter a month prior, and here is my revert of it. When I pointed this out (as it was only one month to the day prior), he reacted badly, leaving these silly taunts on my Talk Page, implying that my pointing this out was not proper admin conduct, was something for which I could lose my admin privileges, would "go to an overall pattern", and so forth. Asgardian attempted to couch these posts in a supposedly friendly, concerned tone, but given his history of evasive and intellectually dishonest behavior, this was transparently insincere, as these were clearly just veiled (and quite hollow) threats by him, because he simply did not like the fact that I pointed out a recent example of behavior on his part that he insisted he never engaged in. It illustrates how he reacts when someone dares observe and criticize his behavior. He could've just said, "Oh, okay, I forgot about that. My bad." Instead, he is so dismissive of the normal checks-and-balances to which all editors are subject that he reacts by alleging that noting such behavior by him is itself somehow a violation of policy.

These examples illustrate Asgardian's persistent contempt for the collaborative process prescribed by Wikipedia. Nightscream (talk) 18:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. -- Dave (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
2. -- DrBat (talk) 02:09, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
3. -- Nightscream (talk) 00:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
4. -- Dayewalker (talk) 00:49, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
5. -- Tenebrae (talk) 21:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
6. Dream Focus 18:02, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Involved view by User:David A

I'm too short in time and focus to give something as comprehensive as Nightscream's impressive summaries above, but for a start:

I would like to add that my own ongoing annoyance mirrors his own in noticing the consistent false concern and politeness dripping with venom and sarcasm literally the manner of "I'm so concerned about David, given his horrible horrible handicaps and all, but it really would be best for his nerves if he could take a break from this, and since he's got them let's please ban him on principle shall we? Hmm? Regards; All the best; And do you need a bubble-bath or a massage?", while at the same time doing his best to stress said nerves. (I've had to deal with him for around two years now.)

Another is the constant regulation manipulation for personal benefit. For example in the Juggernaut edit-war stating "not to violate consensus and the spirit of the 3-revert rule" and that he has never done this, while simultaneously doing just that in Dormammu. Or making constant cases of "incivility" as an all-purpose shield against anyone who simply states exactly what he is doing, including instantly trying to get Tenebrae banned, even though the admins he contacted considered it ridiculous: [44]

Another editor suggested that he does fall within the troll spectra, using "fear", and system manipulation as a weapon, which would fit with the ongoing deeply satirical "system weakness illustrating" bent in his edits, provocations, and tone.

He is also making a great amount of extremely misleading edit-summaries, including the ones stating "No OHOTMU" as a validation for removing a considerably greater amount of references that had nothing to do with this at Dormammu, but that is just the latest in a long line.

This is in conjunction with recurrently inserting or reinserting inaccurate information, or replacing word-by-word sourced information with unsourced summaries involving misleading personal opinion.

Yet another is that his word apparently cannot be trusted. If he gets a warning for deleting valid references to replace them with opinion, he will return at a time when interest has waned to do the same edit once more, and when we cut a deal that he should stop doing sweeping deletions and instead make compromise suggestion text reconfiguration attempts, if structure or accuracy was his actual aim, in return for myself treating him as completely redeemed with full benefit of doubt, to give him yet another chance to prove himself trustworthy, he almost immediately diverted from it, despite that I continued to give him consistent chances for a few weeks. Now that this entry is up he has finally started to compromise in the manner I wanted, but I have no illusions whatsoever that he will do what he always does once he's talked himself out of it, and do the same reverts once again, once interest has diffused.

Given that he has in fact been proven to use sockpuppets, I have sometimes suspected him to use temporary IP addresses when his own reverts have been enforced by such, but that may just be my personal paranoia speaking.

The reference-censoring have also tended to have a very specific slant on heavily favouring certain characters and disfavouring others, but unless he is still using sockpuppets he has apparently turned better about this specific point.

Given that my own fundamental problem with him is that I cannot synchronise the idea of someone we know for a fact to be very dishonest (in a broader sense than Asgardian himself, i.e. including any calculated rather than accidental sockpuppet users who employ these to edit the same articles) to be allowed to edit something people rely on for accuracy, I do find the "civility" charges to be a silly focus. As noted above Asgardian generally goes to extremes in the other direction with complete incoherence between deliberately overstated smarmy ingratiating acid words, and dishonest actions. Well, he did call me "shrieking, unbalanced, and unhinged" once, so I suppose in theory it could apply, but I don't really care much about that sort of thing. The important thing is to be honest. Being so underhanded that he's trying to use my handicaps as a weapon on the other hand can tend to annoy me, and the ongoing cheerful smarmy manipulative dishonesty even more so. This is what I believe should be the main focus of this page: Asgardian is a completely unapologetic known deliberate serial-liar who is somehow allowed to edit an encyclopedia.

I'm inserting an old short link list if this is of any help:

This one mentions an edit-war on Red Hulk along with the ongoing "incivility defense";

This has J.Greb mention that he has also noticed the misleading edit-summaries, referring to this case: [45], along with Asgardian stating that he wll continue to do so as long as he gets away with it in the following edit;

This mentions edit-wars on Abomination and Rhino pages, and also mentions Stewie Griffin;

This mentions the ongoing problems with removing multiple valid references from Dormammu on false grounds; Here he can be seen just recently doing exactly the same thing over and over on Doctor Strange, despite Talk page clarifications.

User:Tcaudilllg states that Asgardian's tactics correspond to those of a troll, and in the same case User:Duae Quartunciae calls his manipulative use of regulations (to create either fear, or annoyance, such as later putting a complaint against Tenebrae) "self-serving" and warns him that he might get banned. The former would fit in with the old comment that Asgardian finds annoyance with manipulation funny, and that he admits to goading me to get easily linked quotes;

And perhaps most noteworthy, there was an extremely lengthy (and dull) ongoing debate about that he appeared entirely willing to vandalise multiple pages just to make an exaggerated satirical point, and following talk about that he just keep sticking to (more sophisticated versions of) the same behaviour no matter how many chances he is given (likely a few specific examples in the J.Greb talk, if I remember correctly): [46] [47] [48];

His ban list should mention plenty of other cases. Dave (talk) 21:17, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Dave (talk) 11:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
2. Tenebrae (talk) 21:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
3. DrBat (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
4. Dream Focus 18:05, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Involved/Outside view by User:Wikikaye

Asgardian does seem to genuinly care about cleaning up and correcting articles, however s/he does tend to merge sections of articles together that should be left apart. S/he claims that this is to help make it easier to read - and that sub-headings somehow "impeded easy reading" - however his/her actions do the exact opposite; selecting various articles and changing how some sections are ordered means that there is no clarity or coherence between articles.

This becomes most apparent with 'other versions' sections of several Marvel characters. These sections tend to be separated into sub-sections, so that articles about alternate realities can link directly to the intended alternate version of character. For example, Hank_Pym#Ultimate_Marvel links directly to Ultimate Giant Man. However, by removing headings and merging paragraphs about different versions together makes it impossible for articles to link to the intended versions, and also makes it harder to find the information about appropriate alternate versions of the characters.[49]

S/he claims that s/he is doing this to make it easier to read, but instead it makes it harder. I've tried to explain how separating the versions makes things clearer, but attempts to correct these incidents by myself[50][51] and others (such as Tenebrae[52][53] and anons[54][55][56]) have lead to a couple of minor edit wars.[57][58] After some have tried explaining their views, Asgardian has, in the past, simply reverted their edits without explaining why.[59]

I'm not trying to get at him/her or anything, as s/he does at least appear to work hard to improve several articles on this wiki, but some edits seem to hurt more than they do help, and his/her logic and reasons for his/her changes seem kinda confusing at times. Wikikaye (talk) 01:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Dream Focus 18:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Involved view by J Greb

For me, this really breaks down the level of ownership, disruptiveness, and dishonesty exhibited out weighing the good done and good intents held by Asgardian.

The Description notes at the end that Asgardian did admit to editing an article to prove a point. When this was discussed, they backpedaled - [60] - claiming the statement they made on the "Red Hulk" talk page were misinterpreted. Both these statements capped the past history and resulted in this RfC.

The Description, Evidence, and other (to date) "Involve view" do a fair job of pointing to the ongoing ownership and disruptive editing issues.

The dishonesty though... David A points to a good example of it in the "The Infinity Gauntlet" edit -[61] - where, yes, "(Added list of crossover titles)" covers part of the edit. But the removal of a section that included a reference was not addressed. Either Asgardian was editing from [62] (their previous edit), felt the deletion was to minor to mention, or the revert would be over looked if not mentioned. Similar situations have occurred in their edits at Bizarro:

• [63] - "(AB in PH)" is the use obscuring acronyms (AB more so than PH) to cover removal of the "See other" link.
• [64] - "(More copy)" is, at best, a falsehood when the edit is cutting text (reducing the amount of copy) from the article. At worst it's random jargon.
• [65] - "(More detail in text)" is at best a half truth. It does not address the removal of details from the first two paragraphs of that section. Nor does it address the removal of the line from the external links. Again it looks more like they edited from their last edit - [66] - instead of from the article. Which would be a deliberate revert hidden in with a fresh edit.

It is also worth noting that when Asgardian filed a Wikiquette alerts against Tenebrae, the editors that initially responded also had trouble with Asgardian's edit summaries. The article reviewed was Juggernaut (comics) and the section of the history - [67] - is December 15. And to be fair, this snapshot coveres all 3 of the basic issues - it involves ownership, disruptiveness, and dishonesty on the part of Asgardian.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. J Greb (talk) 19:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
2. Dave (talk) 20:45, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
3. Tenebrae (talk) 21:58, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
4. DrBat (talk) 14:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
5. Dream Focus 18:24, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Outside view by Doczilla

Same crap, different day.

This same thing has been going on for several years now. Once upon a time, Asgardian acknowledged stirring things up in Wikipedia for experimental purposes, and it just seems to go on and on. Asgardian seems to improve only enough to drag this out. It's difficult to explain the problem to those who are not directly involved or to show clear enough examples that can independently illustrate the scale of what's wrong. It doesn't help that those who most consistently feud with Asgardian most have racked up quite a list of errors and emotional outbursts themselves. The desired outcome requested in this RFC is so vague and mild that I have difficulty seeing what can come out of this that will really accomplish much. If I thought it would really make a difference, I could go into far more detail, but I foresee having these same discussions in 2011, 2012.... Frankly, ongoing Agardian-related squabbling is the main reason I don't do much editing in the comics project any more. I have better things to do with my time. I should hope other people, including Asgardian himself, would too. Doczilla _STOMP! 22:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Nightscream (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC) (With regard to the issues of Asgardian's use of apparent improvements in his behavior just enough to avoid serious administrative action, and the problem of the vagueness of desired outcomes of discussions like this.)
2. Dave (talk) 08:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC) (What Nightscream said, and heartily agreeing with the problems for someone who has had to deal with Asgardian for years in literally hundreds of instances to accurately convey the sheer scale to an outsider)

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