Talk:Netball/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Bill william compton^Talk 08:54, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll start reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria by tomorrow. Bill william compton^Talk 08:54, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

This article certainly has potential for GA, but there are some major issues which i'd like to be addressed before i pass this Good Article review. In meantime i'd advice few major changes in the article.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Check these inaccessible and dead links

   All links were checked again. Should now work. Thompson now fixed. --LauraHale (talk) 02:17, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   This is the main concern of my review; article is stuffed with details which are overwhelming it. Specially Netball around the world and Major competitions

   Please cite specific passes that need fixing. --LauraHale (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

   Please cite Wikipedia policy that suggests an article cannot be stuffed with information. Much of the trivial information has been removed in order to comply with that. We've removed headers, at your suggestion, which make it appear more stuffed and harder to find information. If there is trivial information that is still in the article, please provide specific, concrete examples so that it can be removed. --LauraHale (talk) 23:18, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

   How many times i've to tell you about the bulkiness of sections like Netball around the world and Major Competitions, refer this second point. I didn't ask you to just remove headers, but i recommended you to remove header and to replace the sections of each country with a unified short, most relevant and brief summary under the heading of each region.

   This problem should now be fixed. --LauraHale (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Slightly biased towards the popularity of the game

   Please cite examples of bias. This cannot be fixed with out clear examples. --LauraHale (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

   slightly biased towards the popularity of the game because the whole article is about - how much it's popular in Commonwealth Nations, how it became a popular women's sport just by introducing to different countries, etc; but article doesn't tell why this sport is still not a part of Olympics, why it took 20 years for IOA to even recognize this sport while many other non-contemporary sports were already being in the list, why this is not as recognizable as basketball, even if both are so much similar, why this game is limited to women only and many other such questions. I think this is sufficient to question the neutrality of this article, sufficient examples or you need more??

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   well illustrated by the free images

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   I extend the on hold period of this article for two more days to resolve above mentioned concerns.

Thank you Bill william compton^Talk 19:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I am going to request another person fail it. The reviewer's comment not detailed enough to improve. The reviewer as not provide actionable feeback to improve the article. Based on the reviewers previous comments, his concerns cannot be fixed in two days as we've tried to repeatedly fixed these concerns and if we haven't done it already, we aren't going to meet his requirements now.. The reviewer hasn't been time responsive. --LauraHale (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

If these points will remain unresolved by tomorrow than i'll fail it by myself, no need of your advice. If you need more time to work on it than in this case i may further extend the period of hold and please tell me how much actionable feedback you need??, i tried to explain each and every point of all my concerns in detail. I told you i was busy for few days and wasn't in condition to response effectively, so why are you blaming me for not being a time responsive. I'd advice you to refer some good sports related articles like Association Football, Baseball, etc and you'll be able to interpret my recommendations.

I've looked at the association articles and the baseball articles. Both articles are largely about sports with large rates of male participation, sports that have popularity largely dependent on professionalism and spectatorship, and sports where principle interest is from Europe and South America. Given these huge differences, they aren't the best examples. --LauraHale (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

General

• Global View

The lead says Netball is popular in Commonwealth nations, but as i know and have researched about Netball, except Australia, New Zealand, England and few Caribbean countries or may be one or two African nations its not that much popular or even recognizable. So i couldn't digest that its a popular sport in Commonwealth nations, because word Commonwealth constitutes more than 50 sovereign countries and most of them are in Asia and Africa (and on population basis more than 90% Commonwealth population is from Asia and Africa). So i'd like to see change in this context or other such patterns in whole article like this Netball became a popular women's sport in countries where it was introduced, and spread rapidly through school systems, it doesn't sound to constitute a global view of the game.

I've done quite a bit of research in netball myself. The description you've given seems more akin to international-level competition than grassroots netball, which is widespread across the Commonwealth, particularly among southern African, Caribbean and Pacific island nations, and to a lesser extent in south Asia. Much of this (cited) information was moved off the main article into separate "netball in <country>" articles just before the GA review started. I guess we could add more citations back to the Netball article to support it. – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:29, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Ditto this in my own way. Netball feels a bit different than say soccer, baseball or basketball. Yes, there are international competitions and yes, some of these are televised. The important part of netball though isn't spectatorship, it is participation. In soccer or basketball or baseball, the Cook Islands and Fiji and Samoa and Malawi and Saint Lucia do not rank on the world scale. This sport is known more for its participation on the grass roots levels, for providing women with an opportunity to manage a game that they participate in on all levels. Most of the information that was moved off into separate netball articles was for countries that had one or two lines about them. This information was generally integrated into the section about the region, rather than leave up that one line. I really think the global view is important to keep, possibly expand. I think the little snippets of history for these countries is important for highlighting what I mentioned: The game is important in smaller countries, it has high rates of female management, it is generally played by women and non-traditional nations dominate it. I guess what I'm wondering is if expanding more on individual nations in their own nations section is the answer to the problem or if the solution is to move the individual by nation data out of the general region section. --LauraHale (talk) 04:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Just a note here, the top 25 countries are all Commonwealth countries, and the list includes Asian and African members of the Commonwealth. It would take quite a lot of work to adequately source how 'popular' it is across the population of all these countries.this looks like a good source for "Commonwealth's most popular female sports", but I don't have access to the article, so I cant be sure. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 21:43, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Checked the source. The chapter on netball is talking about how netball players land on their knees and the impact it has on their knees. (Netball's requirement for being stationary when throwing was intended to make netball less physically demanding. It did not succeed. It just changed the particular areas of stress.) The article does not contain any statistics regarding world wide popularity. --LauraHale (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: Merged the global section from history with Worldwide popularity. Renamed the section World game. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that really fixes the problem. I think what Bill wanted clarified was just how prevalent the game was throughout the Commonwealth, but moreover the extent in which the game is played in the world at large. In which case, I think a paragraph along the following lines would have sufficed:

• played in 70+ countries worldwide
• historically, the game spread throughout the British Empire (being an English game)
• primarily popular in "many" Commonwealth nations; limited inroads elsewhere (USA, France, Argentina, Israel)

In addition, moving the "global game" subsection has limited coverage in the History section to the end of the 1960s: forty years of netball history is now suddenly absent from the relevant section of the article. I suggest moving the subsection back and clarifying worldwide popularity as above. – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:48, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Please feel free to take a stab at fixing that. I'm kind of at a loss of how to do it. :/ If the article's history bit is more about the rule changes, I can provide citations and examples for when the rules changed and that would could help make the section more about the history of the game on the court, rather than a history of the game in a broader sense. And yeah, at a loss how to fix beyond what was done to try to fix it. --05:57, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

• HistoryY

The sub-section of History- Origins from basketball, talks about only how basketball was originated and than there is another sub-section Early development of netball, so either these both sub-sections have to be merged suitably or Origins from basketball section should employ more words for Netball

I think this has been addressed/resolved now. --LauraHale (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: The two sections were merged and given a new header. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

• Worldwide popularityN

There is no need of such a bulky section. Only brief idea should be mention here, extra information could be place into respective article or new stub/start class articles could also be made.

Not sure how this fits in the context of the comments above about not conveying the reach of the game... or how to make it more brief. Could you suggest which sections should be eliminated here and explain why some more? --LauraHale (talk) 05:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: Merged the global section from history with Worldwide popularity. Renamed the section World game. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions:-

Replace this whole section with a title like Netball around the world or something like that, because World Game is a very broad sense term; the bulkiness of this section is completely senseless, i still don't understand why this section was made with so much over-information, there are already concerned articles for each sub-section (like Netball in Australia and Netball in South Africa) so why to detail them here also.

Concentrate this section within one or two paragraphs, don't mention each country with separate heading instead make sub-headings like:- Asia, Oceania , Europe, Americas and Africa; but mention only important and necessary facts, like:-

any major historical aspect

level of popularity

Grassroots of the game within the country or continent

number of regular participants (not necessary if data is not available)

any major impact on the tactics of the game

Again, this is my first time going through a good article review so I'm a bit slow on how to do this. It is really hard to put the historical aspects. There is no comprehensive history of netball that has been written about the sport, let alone individual countries. Most of the countries that are big netball countries are less well developed countries in Africa, the Caribbean and Oceania. It is hard to get a sense of the grassroots level as a result.

The popularity levels are hard to measure. The number of participants information that is available is all in the info box. Beyond that, it is hard to find. (For example, I've spent a good two or three hours trying to find total participant levels in Jamaica and another Caribbean nation mentioned in the article originally but not cited.) Getting this information can only be done by country, not continent and that's a maybe. (The level of administration is not comparable to baseball, basketball, soccer or rugby union which are much more popular.)

The historical aspects are some what subjective and that comes down to by country. The issue of apartheid in South Africa had a tremendous impact on the game in South Africa but it has little impact on say Botswana, Lesotho, Zimbabwe, Tanzania. Tanzania or Botswana had funding issues that were unique to their economic situation if I recall correctly. The Cook Islands had the same issues in various parts of their history. The history of the game in individual countries is unique (which is why things were separated) and the patterns don't necessarily hold true by continent.

The issue of tactics wouldn't really be important to the history of individual countries, nor is it documented in the limited available sources regarding how the game being played in a country.

For this reason, I'm still at a complete loss as how to address your feedback, beyond just removing the individual countries completely and leaving the summary by region. --LauraHale (talk) 23:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I think I fixed this again. I removed the country headers. I removed some of the data that was in there. Every country was basically brought down to one paragraph. --LauraHale (talk) 23:48, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

• Major competitionsN

Again this section is unnecessarily too large; concentrate it into one or maximum two paragraphs, don't include tabular data or irrelevant details. Preferably make two sections of international and domestic competitions.

There are no sections in the major competitions area about domestic competitions. They were all taken out and put into the information by country. Beyond this, if we take this information out now, it will all have to be put back and expand upon it in order to get the article to featured status. Given that, I'm not sure why it needs to be taken out in order get good article status. --LauraHale (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: Mostly. The Asian Championship paragraph made it some of seem like a mess. Cleaned up that section. Removed a table. No domestic competitions included in the section. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions: don't include results in tabular form, mention which are the various tournaments (competitions) of the game, place whole material within one or two paragraphs.

I've never gone through a good article process before so yeah. I apologize if I'm a little slow and not understanding what you're asking. I did that for the Netball World Championships I think. I removed the table and replaced it with the information in paragraph form. Is that example what you're thinking of? Should I try that for the other major competitions?

I'm still not sure why you don't want tables in this section. If you could explain that some more? I've removed the duplicate information from the competition sections so there is less repetition. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (tables) says of tables:

Tables are perfect for organizing any information that is best presented in a row-and-column format. .... Tables should not be used simply for layout, either. If the information you are editing is not tabular in nature, it probably does not belong in a table.

If a table is not used, the prose gets repetitive: Year, location, number of teams, first, second, third place. Repeat per year. If you don't think this information should be included for the most important international events for this sport, can you please explain why, and edit those sections to include the informatuon you think should be included. I believe the citations in the article should provide you with information that you may think should be included that I'm unclear about you wanting. --LauraHale (talk) 04:51, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• Governing bodies of the NetballY

There is not a single section about the governing bodies of the game. A section should be made about how this game is governed on the continental/region basis.

Fair point. Will work on adding a section about that. --LauraHale (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Added a section on that. How much more information is needed? --LauraHale (talk) 03:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: Section added. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I've restructured it.

Awesome. Thanks. --LauraHale (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

• Red-LinksY

There are many dead hyperlinks which could be clear/correct.

Can you give some examples? My list of Redlinks that I see includes:

• All England Netball Association
• Cook Islands Netball Association
• Netball World Youth Championship
• Margharet Matenga
• Anna Noovao
• Kandy High School
• Colombo Ladies College
• Government Training College
• Confederation of Southern Africa Netball Association
• National Olympic Committee of South Africa
• Netball South Africa
• Mwanaidi Hassan
• Loughborough Lightning
• United States of America Netball Association
• Grand Festival of Paraplegic Sport
• Malaysian Netball Association

That's 16 total. A few of those could probably be removed, especially the high school ones. The rest are important netball related people or netball and sport organizations that realistically, should have articles about them. And this isn't a criteria as near as I can tell in manual of style or mentioned at Wikipedia:Good article criteria. To be frank, I'm not sure why this is an issue. --LauraHale (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I support LauraHale i see that she is right... You should fix those... --Zalgo (talk) 00:01, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

The issue is to reduce the red links as much as possible, those which are highly relevant to the subject could be retain and keep in mind linking is also the part of MOS.Bill william compton^Talk 20:49, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: Red links are removed from all but the national netball team parts, which use a template to show the flag. --LauraHale (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

• Schools I think the article needs more information about netball in schools, esp. schoolyard and curriculum, besides the titbits of information included in the subsections of "Netball around the world". Netball is (or at least has been) one of the most common school sports in modern health & physical education programs.(crikey, that is a redlink??) If there is a lot of variance between countries, those subsections could be fleshed out a bit more with this information, or a section elsewhere should cover its use in schools. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 01:10, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thought about this. Hard to do as there isn't a consistent method of doing that. In some countries, netball is included and some it isn't. In some places, it appears to be in the curriculum of mixed gendered classes and girls only classes. In other places, netball is offered as a school sport only. In still other places, netball is offered as a school sport, where the school does not offer physical education classes. These three things can actually exist in the same state in a country. The inclusion of netball in the curriculum also appears to differ and there isn't a universal timeline of sorts. Beyond these basic issues, there are school based competitions and level of competitions that are described as school competitions but are actually competitions for school aged girls. --LauraHale (talk) 05:27, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

• Olympics The article says that "In 2008, efforts were started to include netball in the Olympic Games from as early as 2012." The source says that there are no plans to have it included in 2012 or 2016, but it would be discussed at a meeting in 2009. I think the article needs to summarise the current situation a bit better. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 01:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Added a section on the Olympics. Removed problem sentences. Removed parts about Olympics in the body that would have made that repetitive. --LauraHale (talk) 05:27, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Copied from my talk page:

If you had so much problem in interpreting these issues, than you could simply ask me for assistance and i'd pleased to do it by myself. How specifically i'd tell you that these sections are bulky in size, unbalanced and stuffed with unnecessary details, what you had to do just replaced the whole section with one or two paragraph sized summary, as there are already articles for each sub-section, similarly for the section major competitions, if there are articles for each competition/tournament than why you redundantly added tabular data about the results of these competitions. I really don't know why you're unable to understand these simple recommendations i made. Bill william compton^Talk 08:09, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I asked you on your talk page to put this on the GA page so I copied it here so there would be a record. I feel like I have repeatedly asked for clarification regarding what you've written. You said a section was bulky in size. They were made less bulky. You didn't indicate if this satisfied your requirements or how to improve upon that. You didn't respond for additional requests for feedback. You didn't provide any examples of sections, nor how to fix these sections. Please feel free to go through the world section and fix it. We reduced content, reduced content, reduced content and it was never right and you didn't provide additional feedback on how to improve them. Beyond that, there are no non-start articles for most of these country articles. We're talking trying to integrate information from over 50 nations. I don't understand your instance on referring to poorly written articles and non-existent articles as superior to the main article. --LauraHale (talk) 08:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The tabular data is not cited on the sub pages and the tabular data is extremely important to understanding the competition. It helps explain the schedule for the event, who hosts these events and what the top teams are. Information presented that way is more condense. Thus, I'm still completely unclear as to what you want in these sections. Do you just want a list of the major competitions? --LauraHale (talk) 08:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Within the time frame you have given yourself, please fix all the problems you have identified. I still don't understand what you want and you have provided me with no additional clarity regarding your desires for how to edit the article, nor your rational for cutting down sections as the information is on sub pages that doesn't exist. I don't know what you want. You are not communicating with me effectively. Please use your time frame and edit the article so it can get a good article status using your advice. --LauraHale (talk) 08:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Too much content in ones view is not bias. Gee. Personally I would consider removing the bits about the Asian champs and nation cup as the article imo should just have world comps. KnowIG (talk) 10:01, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Moved the Asian championship referenced to the Asian section. I then removed the section. The Nations Cup is something I honestly don't know enough about to know if it should be moved/removed as a non-major event. It was listed on the article when I first started editing. The article that it points to has no real sources, so it makes it hard to evaluate based on those grounds alone. Tomorrow morning Australia time, when I'm more awake, I'll try to find sources to get a better idea of its importance on the international calendar. If it is important, I'll expand the little blurb in front of it to better demonstrate relevance. Thanks for the comment. :) If there is any other concrete examples like this that you could cite, I'd be happy to have a go at trying to improve them. --LauraHale (talk) 11:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I came to this review because of the request for a second opinion. I am willing to give you an opinion, but I am not sure what is the question. If the question is whether tables or bullet lists are allowed under the GA criteria, yes they are. Given a broad topic such as netball, it is diffcult to draw a line around the appropriate scope of the article. I generally allow a lot of leeway in relevant content. If the article's overall size grows too long, then daughter articles can be split off. See, WP:SPLIT. I would not delete the challenged material completely (vs. splitting it off.) Racepacket (talk) 16:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

KnowIG's review

If you don't mind I'm going to go section by section and flag major issues. Minor ones I'll sort myself.

History

at her Physical Training College in London (later in Dartford). Should be Dartford near London. All Dartford is famous for is a tunnel which people usually sit in a traffic jam in :P Y Trying to help, but lost in the traffic. Linked to article on "Dartford" Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Basketball spread to England within a few years of its invention. Martina Bergman-Österberg introduced one version of basketball in 1893 to her female students at her Physical Training College in London (later in Dartford). Which version also is a source avaliable. If not don't worry too much vary comprensive article. Y Added a source Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Australia, netball competed with women's basketball. The two sports shared a name. What was this name. Although implied in next sentence spelt out would be better. Y "women's basketball" re-phrased. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

In 1963, the first international tournament was held in Eastbourne, England. Originally called the World Tournament, it eventually became known as the Netball World Championships. It has been held every four years since, most recently in 2007. The World Youth Netball Championships started in Canberra in 1988, and have been held roughly every four years since. In 1995, netball became an Olympic-recognised sport, allowing its inclusion in future games. Reference needed for the world tournament claim and the world youth champ plus the olympic claim. Y "Added refs Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

primarily contested between second- and third-tier netball nations. Link second and third tier . If red link then you can create an article later stating these tier differences. Y struck "second- and third-tier" Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Australia had started playing a game similar to the of England during the 1960s. to the English players during the 1960s Y corrected typo. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

KnowIG (talk) 17:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Description and rules be at least .9 metres (2 ft 11 in). Centmeters would be better. Y done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC) Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Varients A unique feature of this form of the game is that players can shoot from outside the goal circle for a two-point goal, while shots taken inside the goal circle still earn one point. Can anyone shoot. Y Specified "attacking and centre players". – Liveste (talk • edits) 14:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Each quarter lasts only six minutes, compared with 15 minutes in normal international netball competition. Rm latter part of sentence. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Each team can separately nominate one "power play" quarter, in which each goal scored by that team counts for double points. This is somewhat similar to powerplays in One Day International and Twenty20 cricket,[67] although it is not a feature of standard netball.[66] Rm although its is not a feature.... Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Umpires raise one arm for a single-point goal and two arms for a two-point goal. In standard netball rules, goals can only be shot from within the shooting circle and count for one point only. Think the umpire stuff is not needed. And the rest of it really? I think the point is made and is self explanatory with out this. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Centre passes: After each goal, the team that conceded the goal takes the next centre pass; teams alternate taking the first centre pass of each quarter. Under normal rules, a coin toss determines the first centre pass of the match, after which centre passes alternate between the two teams.[66] So it's no difference to normal right? Remove then. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Readded. There is a difference, which I've tried to clarify: "After each goal, the team that conceded the goal takes the next centre pass. Under normal rules, centre passes alternate between the two teams, regardless of which team scored the last goal." It doesn't take into account every situation, but the description is true in general. – Liveste (talk • edits) 14:14, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The Fun Net program runs for 8–16 weeks. There are no winners or losers. Is this really needed. Y removed Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

High Five Netball has been heavily promoted by the All England Netball Association.[74] Move into above paragraph. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Childrens a bit Aussie focused but if you state that these are played all over then I can forgive for the AUssie focus.

Global section. I am going to do a bit of work and post some bits here. KnowIG (talk) 17:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Demo appeal

Representative men's teams exist, but attract less attention. But are less popular/recieve less attension. your call.

England were at 0.6% of the total. Made up not were at. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Mixed Netball Association, is this a global assoication or an aussie one. If global link don't care if it red links. Bill was wrong

Added red links in the men's section. Added more information as a source was found. Should give a better idea of the history of men's netball and global participation. Also, red links added. --LauraHale (talk) 05:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

International Challenge Men’s and Mixed Netball Tournament. Link don't care if its red.

nice stuff on the trannys

Players were all in wheelchairs and used netball posts to. Don't need to state that they were in wheelchairs. It's implied by polo and the cross of basketball as basketball for disabled is wheelchair based. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

basketball in 1956.[181] The replacement version of the game is what is now called wheelchair basketball. Write wheelchair basketball and you can rid of the next sentence but obviously keep the ref. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

less coverage of the sport, because most coverage of women's sport focuses around the Olympics. I would be happier if you stated most coverage of women's sport takes place at major champs along side men's events. Sorry my specialist subject at the moment :P Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Money that is available through International Olympic Committee and the British Council to promote women's sport sometimes ignores women's sport in certain geographic areas. Repeat of 2 sentences earlier with the inclusion of British council. Keep the Brit bit, I didn't know this. Y done Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Netball may be the most popular women's sport, in terms of media coverage and participation rates, in an area but the money goes towards Olympic sports with low participation rates, low rates of interest and few facilities. Pritty sure women's tennis recieves more media coverage than netball. Should probably remove this unless you can make so your not making a bold claim. in an area gives plenty of room. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added where it is played, just to give it a bit more definition. Certainly makes it less of a bold claim now as it now doesn't mean globally.

Some supporters of netball have argued that by trying to internationalise the game and be included in the Olympics has moved netball away from a model of women's sport and more towards a male model of competitive sport. This is viewed by some sport people as detrimental to the game. intersting but strange, considering that on the box down the bottom a list of sports are given, most are played by men and are masculine or gender neutral. So probmatic. Yes this and the one above have a source but as you can see, it's a bold claim easily shot down unfortunatly :(

• That people are saying it is a fact. Editorialising myself, the issue is really about participation sport vs spectator sport, an issue which many mens sports also grapple with. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:18, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you think that it could be phrased in a better way, cause it is just rather difficult to interpret in the right way to me. KnowIG (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• The entire quote has been added. That should clear up any misunderstandings. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The most important competition in netball is the World Championship which is held every four years. Can't have one sentence. State who has won the most times and where the first tournie was and who was the winner. Yeah I know table but you needed to pad here. Y done.

Commonwealth state that Aus and NZ are the most successful, Aus first 2 NZ next 2.

Nice stuff on the world series, this should be the standard for the bits above.

Nations cup well we've already talked about that. I think once this is done and I've had a proper look at global bit we're good to promote. KnowIG (talk) 18:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Red links

Grand Festavile of Paraligic sports do you mean/could it be/is it this IWAS World Games

Global I've rearranged it into alphabetical order of regions then countries.

I've sorted out the lead to this section. But can you please remove the fastnet format as it's a varient and is of little worth here.

School leagues and national club competitions have existed in countries such as England, Australia, New Zealand and Jamaica since the early 20th century. However, franchise-based netball leagues only emerged in the late 1990s. The most prominent of these competitions is the ANZ Championship in Australia and New Zealand, and the Netball Superleague in the United Kingdom. references please. And before this can you write that international competiton really took off in 67 with the advent of the world cup reference that. Then link into the above section.

Generally before I start any sections I've removed trival tournament spec stuff which doesn't enhance the article. Like 6 teams competed in 2008 etc. And have removed double links.

Americas This can be seen in the countries that play it Antigua and Barbuda and Grenada being an important netball being important minor netball playing countries. Complete garbage. Makes no sense. Should be if it stays This can be seen in the countries that play it for example. Antigua and Barbuda who are part of the commonwealth and Grenada who are not. In Antigua it is a popular sport unlike in Grenada. Y cleaned up. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Asia removed stuff about the gay games team because its repetition. And removed the listy so and so played in this year stuff. As tbh not really presenting diverstiy imo.

Europe Cleaned up.

Oceania Cleaned up.

I'll leave it here for today. Plenty for you to do. I'll be back tomorrow to work on the countries. :) KnowIG (talk) 21:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Other comments

Per WP:SIZE and WP:SPLIT this 140K artcle should be shortened. You already have daughter articles such as Netball in Samoa, Asian Netball Championship, Netball in India, etc. I believe that you can shorten and summarize what is covered in depth in the daughter articles. If the material in the tables regarding World Championships, Nations Cup, etc. appear in the daughter article, you can remove them from this article. As a general rule, the goal should be an article of about 60K to 80K in length. This article should be an international, generic overview with details left to the daughter articles. I hope this helps. I was going to do a detail review, but I don't want to supplant KnowIG. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 19:04, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• I would reword "Some supporters of netball have argued that by trying to internationalise the game and be included in the Olympics has moved netball away from a model of women's sport and more towards a male model of competitive sport." Please find more concrete terms than "male model of competitive sport." Are you saying that these advocates seek Netball to be included in the Olympics as both a men's and women's sport? Or are you referring to commercialization? If example, in the United States, women's basketball and women's boxing have become professional sports. Perhaps you mean amateur vs professional rather than men vs. women.

Fixed this issue by adding a quote that clearly illustrates that point. Also fixed it by addressing some of the citation issues in the section.--LauraHale (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• I suggest adding a bit of a summary of how netball differs from women's basketball in terms of size of court, scoring, etc. Racepacket (talk) 19:28, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Isn't the latter suggestion covered by Netball#Court_and_dimensions, Netball#Scoring_goals, Netball#Positions? I'm unclear as to why basketball (men's and women's generally don't vary, with most of the difference in the court changing at levels of play, not gendering of play) should be mentioned in these sections, as it would assume people are familiar with basketball. In the Cook Islands, Australia and New Zealand at lest, people would be more familiar with netball court size and dimensions than they would be with basketball. (Would the inverse be true? Should we be editing the basketball article to compare it to netball courts to provide perspective?) --LauraHale (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Differences between basketball and netball are adequately covered in the "Description and rules" section. Further comparisons could be covered in a Comparison of basketball and netball article, similar to (for example) Comparison of American football and rugby union. – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

That was also done for cricket apparently: An article compares Cricket to American baseball. --LauraHale (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

The article is currently confusing to the reader. It starts off saying that it evolved from women's basketball, but it does not say how the game differs. Presumably, the difference is that women's basketball has five players on the court who run from both the offensive to defensive positions, while in netball there are seven players on the court whose travel is limited to restricted to particular thirds of the court. Why can't the article make a statement like that? Racepacket (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Where do you think that should be included in the article? It shouldn't be in the rules section. If you think it should be in the history section, please make the edit. :) --LauraHale (talk) 21:03, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

That is really more up to the nominator. The history section would be fine. Racepacket (talk) 11:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

If it is important to the article to mention basketball (not women's basketball. Netball is not a variation of women's basketball. It is a variation of basketball.), you'll need to make the edit. Comparing netball to basketball (as opposed to women's basketball, which is another name for netball) only makes sense if the assumption is that the audience is familiar with basketball. Please make the edit yourself or provide a detailed rational as to why the comparison between basketball and netball need to be made. (And then edit the basketball article to make similar comparisons. The instance to include basketball feels like American bias.) --LauraHale (talk) 00:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Fixed: I removed all references to women's basketball in the history section. I changed it to basketball or netball to make sure there is clarity: Netball is a derivative of BASKETBALL (a sport with rules that are the same for both genders) and netball is also called women's basketball. The use of women's basketball in both ways just made it confusing and may be why we keep having confusion. --LauraHale (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• Readable prose size is only 55 KB (9,240 words) so per WP:SIZE, the article does not need to be split. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand that tables don't count against readble prose size, but I still recommend moving the tournament result tables to the daughter articles. Racepacket (talk) 05:46, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Why are you making this recommendation? As one of the issues that appears to be happening in this article is that there is a goal to make the article more American centric in its appeal (basketball and listing commonwealth countries), the tables amply demonstrate that the sport is popular outside of American areas of interest. That seems to be important for people to understand. At the same time, the daughter articles are extremely poor. If they were better, I would understand this argument better. Why are you making this recommendation? --LauraHale (talk) 00:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• Why the title "Globally"? "Netball around the world" looks more encyclopedic IMO. Personally I'd prefer the country subheadings to be removed, but I'm not too concerned about it for GA purposes. One question though: Netball Australia is considered to be in the Asian netball region, rather than in Oceania (similar to Football Federation Australia) – shouldn't we move the Australian information to Asia? – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

As the geographic break up is by IFNA region, I would move Australia to the correct IFNA region. (I'm probably responsible for it being there. I think the article originally just had sections by country. I imposed the regional structure and just made assumptions.) I personally like the country subheadings as I find it easier to find information when scanning the article. If it went, I wouldn't necessarily be object. The major issue would be how to put in the see alsos and mains. --LauraHale (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to agree with Bill that a "Domestic competitions" section should be included, either as a stand-alone section or as part of "Major competitions". I can rework current sections so that the information wouldn't (for the most part) be redundant. – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Changing major competitions to International competitions and Domestic competitions, each with their own hierarchy would be cool with me. My only concern would be that it could be a bit biased towards England, New Zealand and Australia. I'd also be concerned that it would duplicate soe of the information in by area section. If you can figure out how to resolve that, please do. :) I'll be happy either way so ong as everything is fully cited. :) --LauraHale (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• Also think that Olympics should be moved to the bottom of the "Major competitions" section, since it's not a major netball competition (perhaps "Inclusion in the Olympics"?). I also think we should readd World Netball Series to that section, since despite being a fastnet tournament it's still a part of the overall international netball calendar. The same (participating) national netball teams (except Aus and NZ, which send development teams) contest both test netball and fastnet annually, unlike (say) rugby union and rugby sevens. – Liveste (talk • edits) 04:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Would it make sense to add a section about press coverage (or the lack of it) and sexism in the coverage of sport as that is a major underlying issue with the Olympics? Move the Olympics section to that section. Otherwise, yeah, I'm cool with it being moved to the bottom of the section or whatever solution you think works. I didn't quite understand why the Fastnet tournament was moved to that subsection because the game is still played by the the national team. It doesn't seem much different to me than say 1 day cricket, 40 overs cricket, 20 overs cricket. --LauraHale (talk) 05:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree don't understand why Netball world series was moved as I didn't ask for it. Anyway Laura if you want to include stuff about sexism in sport I can help with some decent accdemic quotes KnowIG (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that the issue could be addressed as either the relative commercial success and participation levels of netball vs. basketball, because it also has racial aspects. I grew up in a small town in Illinois with virtually no minorities and was taught that basketball was a male game that I was required to play. By the time that I got to college it had generally been labeled a game for African-American males and all of the attention of my peers turned to ice hockey as the big winter sport. Today, my college embraces women's basektball and some of the women team members aspire to make their careers in the sport as players or coaches. So it is more a question of society celebrating athleticism than current prejudice against feminism. Women's basketball is an Olympic sport and it has a large professional and collegiate following in the United States. The article could attempt to explain the evolution to that outcome. Racepacket (talk) 11:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Please stop comparing netball to basketball. This article is not a comparison between netball and basketball. This is an article about netball. It does not make sense to continually reference basketball. Also, please stop referring to women's basketball. Women's basketball is not an Olympic sport. Women's basketball is an Olympic recognised sport that is not played in the Olympics. The article is written in British English and Women's basketball is another name for netball.

In Australian and New Zealand English. Try reading your sentence using that language: "Today, my high school embraces netball and some of the women team members aspire to make their careers in the sport as players or coaches." I do not think your high school embraces netball.

Now that we've covered that, can you please explain exactly what edits you want made? With out references to netball (women's basketball) and the United States? It makes it very, very confusing. I'd love to move this article forward. --LauraHale (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• "If a player misses and the ball does not touch the rim or any part of the post, the player cannot catch it otherwise it is called replay." - reword sentence to active voice - a referee calls a replay? "Ball" is the antecedent of the pronoun "it". Runon sentence.

Fixed. --LauraHale (talk) 00:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• I would change, "In 1992, the country hosted its first national championship.[128]"->"In 1992, the USANA hosted its first national championship.[128]" and define USANA in the prior sentence. Neither the United States government nor its US Olympic Committee sanctioned a national championship.

Fixed. --LauraHale (talk) 00:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• "However, while Netball may be the most popular women's sport in an area where it is played, in terms of media coverage and participation rates, money often goes to Olympic sports with low participation rates, low rates of interest and few facilities." - this is POV pushing. Not clear what you mean by "area."

Added a quote to help neutralize the PoV issues. Media coverage often does go there. Tried to make the issue of area clearer. Thought the areas where netball was played were made clear in the rest of the article. (Mostly in commonwealth countries, in oceania, in Africa, in parts of Asia, in the Caribbean.) --LauraHale (talk) 00:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• Please clarify whether the Netball World Championships are a part of the World Games.

Not sure how to do this. What word implies that? (Is the World Series part of the World Games?) Can you please edit to clarify this or specifically reference the text which suggests that the two are connected. Added reference to the Cook Islands section to show that they competed in both the world games and that championship. --LauraHale (talk) 00:48, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• In demographic appeal, the source does not support the part of the sentence which reads, "Netball requires speed, strategy, team work and co-ordination". The logical leap between that phrase and "its appeal is not limited to women" is unsupported. I suggest that you remove the first phrase as unnecessary. Wikipedia does not need to explain why netball appeals to men.

Fixed: Removed the whole first sentence. It was part of the original section that had been carried over and never adequately sourced. --LauraHale (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• In the next sentence, "Representative men's teams exist" - but it is not clear to the reader what "representative" means.

Fixed: Changed to say club, national and international instead of representative. --LauraHale (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• " At Gay Games VI, " - I suggest you state the year. This paragraph only discusses two occassions rather than the general practice of whether Transgenders and transsexuals are allowed to compete on men's teams or women's teams under IFNA rules.

Fixed the section to state that IFNA does not recognise any version of the sport but when played by women. Added year after Gay Games number as games are not referred to by year but by number. --LauraHale (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

• The Tagg article makes an excellent point regarding the limitations on netball's appeal and the view that traditional "women" sports are inferior to traditional "men" sports. For example, women demanded the right to compete in basketball, but men did not demand the right to compete in netball. (Tagg at 419) This should be discussed in the section "Demographic appeal." Women's basketball has been a part of the Summer Olympics since 1976 while netball received recognition much later. Some people view the two sports as competing for resources and recognition, and the article could explore why women's basketball has gain Olympic status and large financial sponsorship. Is it more exciting for spectators to watch or does it appeal to the gender prejudices of various societies? Racepacket (talk) 12:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Can you please refer to it women playing basketball as "basketball played by women" instead of "women's netball". "women's basketball" is another name for netball. The article is not written in American English. It is written in British English and could easily be written in Australian or New Zealand English. Beyond that, the article's topic is not about a sport played in America, with a very tiny American following. It makes your comments appear biased towards America, and suggests a violation of NPOV by pushing an American viewpoint. And men did not demand the right to play netball because the rules clearly prohibited them from playing, and there was cultural bias against it. The article you cite never once uses the phrase women's basketball.

I am also failing to see "Women's basketball has been a part of the Summer Olympics since 1976 while netball received recognition much later." being mentioned in that article by Tagg. The only reference to 1976 mentions apartheid.

Given these issues, can you please reword your request with out a single reference to basketball played by women? I cannot understand what you want added as it pertains to netball and the netball article. --LauraHale (talk) 01:26, 20 March 2011 (UTC)