Talk:Aisha

• Talk:Aisha/archive 1

Latest revision

I have rewritten Striver's version. The article still needs some work. It's now quite long, and there's too much verbatim quoting of hadith. I hope that Striver will accept my rewrite as a faithful representation of the Shia viewpoint, even if not as long and detailed as his. Zora 23:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thx for you time. May i propose to make a second version of the diffrent subjects att the end of the article where i can add all the details i want? --Striver 23:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, no. You can't add all the details you want. Or if you do, I'll trim them. Articles should be short, readable and NPOV. If you want complete control over an article about Aisha, you should write it and put it up on your own web page. If it's good enough, we'll link to it <g>.

It is also possible to write what are called "breakout" articles. If one particular issue threatens to take over an article, it can be given its own page. Muhammad's marriages were given just such treatment, as it would have swamped the main Muhammad biographical article. I don't think there's any issue relating to Aisha that deserves its own article, however.

As you seem to be quite interested in the early history of Islam, up through the Abbasids, you might want to look over the Wikipedia pages on these topics and make sure that the Shia viewpoint is well represented. I think there IS a Sunni bias to some of the articles. There are also a lot of early Islamic topics that need to be filled out in much greater detail. We could certainly use help there, especially from someone who reads Tabari. Zora 01:23, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thx for the tips, ill try to get there when i feel i have done an acurate and comprehensive work on representing the Shia view on Aisha in this article. I work that way, on thing in depht, then the next.

About this article. Why is it a problem in having realy big articles? I dont get the point of restrictiong it. If its about readability, then why not have a short and then a detailet version of the same topic?

As it is i realy feel that i dont get to add all the hadith that show why we argue as we do.

Wikipedia tries to keep articles under 31 or 32K. That's why when you edit the Aisha page now, a warning pops up saying that it's too long. If an article starts to get too long and complicated, we do breakout articles. Also, we try to link to web pages, or give references to books, that take up the issue in greater detail. Wikipedia is the starting point for research, not the end of it. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In my oppinion ther is a great deal to tell to show what she felt and why she felt so in regards to manny diffrent people. For example Fatimah, Ali, Abu Bakr, Umar and so on...

Then write a novel about Aisha. Actually, that would be very interesting. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As you can gues, ther are several persons and several diffrent ocasions (spellin?).

Whe Shia dont have a simplistic view of the people, that is "they alla loved eachothered and came along as great friends", no, we see theme more like in a soap oprah version where evreybody hade difrent views and angles on evereybody else, and in my oppinion its important to cover all importan persons that Aisha interacted with and how she did that to give a good picture of her aligeances. Its almost imposible to understand her psycology and why she rebeld agains Ali without having a simpistic view if we arent suposed to thuroughly go thruogh the background.

The background should be covered in OTHER articles about Islamic history. That's why we put links to the other articles in the text, so that someone who wants to find out more about Shia or Ali or Fatimah can do so easily, without having to conduct a separate search. That's why you really really should look at the other Islamic articles, not just this one, if you want to be sure that the Shia viewpoint is adequately represented in Wikipedia. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My spelling suck big time. I know. I dont have Word :(

Thx, and peace. --Striver 03:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You didn't tell us what subject and what details. The policy of wikipedia is NPOV (i.e. neutral), not Shi'a bashing of Aisha OneGuy 01:29, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Of course its not, but would'nt you agree that its within the NPOV to acurratlý describe the Shia stance on the topic and also why we belive as we do and what our arguments are? --Striver 03:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV. It's not the place to justify and promote Shi'a beliefs. It's not the place for Aisha bashing by Shias. Imagine a Christian apologist arguing that he would like to show why Islam is a false religion and Christianity is true. Would that be acceptable? Absolutely not. You need to take your pro-Shi'a apologetics to your own website OneGuy 03:20, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Whell, ther is no problem having a christan saying his mind as long as he is stating that it is the cristian view. Anyway, i dont get the problem since i only quote Sunni sources. I mean, c'mon, why is the Sunni version supposed to be the correct one? Why is are the Shia not equally entiteled to give the Shia version?

Sunni vesion = evereybody are best friends. Shia version = they loved some and hated som people.

Whats whrong whith telling both sides?

Im not saying i want to take over the artikel, no at all. I just want to tell my version. Anybody else are welcomed to tell theirs.

--Striver 03:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a problem if a Christian says he wants to use wikipedia as a propaganda tool. Same rule applies to Muslims, Sunni or Shi'a. You can describe Shi'a belief but certianly not go into long rambling detail to justify them. I will delete any Shi'a apologetics if I see it OneGuy 03:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Giving all sides of a question is the Wikipedia way. But we have to give equal space to all sides AND we have to keep the articles under 32K. That can mean ruthless editing at times. That is, the Shias don't get as much space as they want, and the Sunnis don't get as much space as they want, and everyone is equally unhappy. Zora 04:37, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Where do i see how big the article is right now? --Striver 16:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

When you click on "Edit this page" a new page opens, and there's a warning at the top. You can't see it until you start to edit. Zora 18:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

hodge podge

This article is supposd to be about Aisha, yet is reads like a venomous debate between Shia and Sunni. Everytime some thing is mentioned about Aisha, there is another para nitpicking it. Every single historical figure has controversy surrounding it. But when writing about it one writes about facts. Here, the venom especially from the shiite side makes the article read like one of those "Opposing viewpoint" series essay. The article doesn't seem to inform about Aisha as much as it wholly bashes her character and the controversies surrounding this historic feminist and leader of Muslims. There should be only one section labelled "Controversies surrounding Aisha" thats it. It would give it more cohorence, NPOV and not read like a venom laden garbage that it currently reads like. IMO, the sunni historians read more like modern day secular western historians, where the purpose is pursuit of the truth rather than maligning a personality for one's favourite side and beleif system.

omerlives Omerlives 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Aisha is an extremely controversial figure. We can't just decide that one version of the history is true, and disregard any other versions. Wikipedia tries to be NPOV -- neutral point of view. If there's a a dispute, we step back and try to give all sides in a neutral fashion, with links to outside sites and books if possible. That way a reader can look for more evidence and make up his/her own mind.

I do think that our Shia critic tried hard to turn this article into a critique of Aisha and that there's perhaps too much of that left. I'll take out some of the endless hadith "evidence" when I have time. But we can't just ignore the Shia point of view. To do so would be unfair to encyclopedia users, who might offend Shias out of ignorance if they assume that the Sunni view of matters is undisputed fact. Zora 07:34, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From his other edits and some of the articles he has created, it's pretty obvious that this guy Sriver is blatant Shi'a apologist who doesn't understand what NPOV means. Also, since 90% of Muslims are Sunni, so yes Sunni version would usually be used to describe what "Muslim" view is on the topic OneGuy 21:42, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, OneGuy, NPOV means taking account of minority views, not just majority ones. Not only are 10% of Muslims Shias, but Shias are in the news these days. I don't think the Shia views should take over the article, and Striver 'is' long-winded, so balance has to be restored. But at least he doesn't try to delete everything he doesn't agree with.

As I wrote on Striver's talk page, I think a large part of the problem is that he is trying to write history articles by jamming everything into biographical articles. I will start a bunch of articles on early Islamic history which are NOT biographical; you can too. You've already been doing some of this with your work on the Caliphs. Let's move Islamic history out of the biographies and into event-centered articles. How about starting with the Ridda Wars? Zora 22:05, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Im sorry OneGuy, but i have told several times, im quoting history books and more ore less established facts. You have not argued even one time with me on the validity of ANNY topic, only forwarded your opinion that im an "apologetic biased shia POV pusher". Get real and argue the topic, prove me wrong, tell me that Ali did NOT opposed Abu Bakr instead of raision votes for delition. Bukhari says that Umar said that Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr, so ´who are you to disagree? What does it matter if 90% of the Muslims dont want to aknowlege facts stated in their own books? Here we state facts, not Sunni POV, and, for example, Bukhari Says Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr.

Start seing the diffrens betwen Sunni POV and what Sunni books says.

And by the way, i usualy dont say "sunni says" or "muslim says", only "bukhari says" or "history of tabari says"

--Striver 21:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are contradictory hadith and contradictory history that both Sunni and Shi'a use to justify their own belief. You think we don't know that? You keep stuffing the articles with hadith and other quotes that Shi'a use to justify their belief and call it "true history." This is blatantly obvious Shi'a POV pushing, apogetics, and propaganda OneGuy 21:54, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Omerlives, its not my intent to bash umm ul-momeenin Aishas character, rather its to stop the sunni sides "Aisha is best" aproch. And i use all Sunni sources to show facts about her, i dont give any single oppininon. An strangly some people, like OneGuy are critizing me for my efforts to include establishd historical facts, in for example, the article about Mohammed.

I mean, c'mon, since when is it bias to portray established facts? Im genuinly hurt by the fact that my efforts to include established, non-disputed facts from sunni sources are dissmised as "biased shia apologetic POV". *sight*

I mean, since when is "man kuntu mawla, alion mawla" a Shia POV? FFS, that makes me so mad and makes me feels poorly treated. So what that the Sunni OPINION is that mawla means friens, is that an excues to exlude that FACT that he said so? Since when do Sunni OPINIONS ´have bigger levereage that FACTS?

Like the fact that Aisha recruited Hafsa and two other wives to harras the Prophet, somthing that made the Prophet leave them for one month and at the end, for the SECOND time, made him think on terminating the marriage to Aisha. Even Umar admits it and gives some very heavy words to Hafsa for it, but still sunnis rather forget the whole thing, only because it remninds them to the fact that Aisha was not an angel. Anyway, the honny episode is now included, no thanx to the Sunni contrubutes. I mean, all of Surah of "the prohibition" is due to this incident, but still Sunnis whant it to be forgoten. I glad that OneGuy isnt here as well, otherwise he would have dissmised the whole honny episode as well as "Biased irrelevant shia apologetic POV. :(

And i havent even started talking about why she is called "Humayra". "The red lady". Use your imagination. Or Aisha hand her fatwa on nursing male adults. *sight* THAT would make Sunnis go berzerk if i started showing what Aisha realy said about that.

Fact: Aisha hated Ali, Fatimah, and Hasan (pbut). ITS FACT. Its all over sunni books. Sunnis dont want to aknowledge that, so instead of being facts, its "biased Shia POV".

Let me aske one thing: If one day, the "Flat Earth Society" would make 85% of the world to belive that the earht is flat, would the FACT that the earth is round to become "irrelevant, biased apologetic Ruond-Earther POV"?

Im talking ESTABLISHED FACTS in SUNNI BOOKS!

Geting tired of this. Only cause Sunnis dont like it, dosnt make it POV! Its SUNNI POV in that case, NOT SHIA POV!

(

--Striver 11:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

FACT FACT FACT FACT! stop labelling everything about your selective POV as fact. Unfortunately I donot have the time being a superbusy undergrad to start and correcting your article. My god! Books by most Western Historians read so much more better as one sees that they have made an HONEST attempt to present an NPOV. Just consider what if Ali by any happenstance was a controversial figure (which he too is) and say Sunnis had angst against him (which they dont) the way Shias do about virtually every other muslim figure save Ali's family. There could be produced a gazilion hadiths and rawayat's about Ali's incompetence, failure, impotence and what not. Just like any figure against whom any community has decided a negative mindset from the beginning. If you dont beleive it, ask any Chritian fundie about Mohammad and let im give you a course bout the vile Muhammad based on FACTS FACTS FACTS from sunni shia hadith quran and what not sources. Yet that article would NOT be balanced, neutral, honest by any chance even if countered in the second para by sunni writers. Read for example the acount on MOhammad by M. Hart in his book THE 100 in which he declares mohamad the most influential person and goes neither in overt sycophancy nor his personal POV. THAT is the honest attempt and that's the way an encyclopedia should read.

This is an encyclopedia, and try to educate people with honesty in your heart and that means honesty about all, the likes of Salman Rushdie, Hassan bin Sabah, Yazeed, Ali, Muawiyah, Khomeni,Bin Hanifa et al. omerlivesOmerlives 03:41, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Uthman's death and the Battle of the Camel

It wasnt khwarij rebels that surounded Uthman, they khwarij group did come into existense util the forced arbitration of Ali and Muaviya.

Its in both Sunni and Shia sources that Hasan and Husain defended Uthman live, not only Shia sources.

--Striver 17:40, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agurzil's edits

There is a non-NPOV in the article, first it says that tabari was an "early" chronicler (what an ingnorance!), second it clearly makes a logical mistake : the tilte says aicha married when she was 9, and in the text it says 6!!!! if the word marriage doesn't suits you, change it! the reader has to know that Aicha ACCEPTED to marry when she was six. I will change all the non-NPOV.--Agurzil 08:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Agurzil, please be polite. Early is relative. Tabari is later than Ibn Ishaq and Waqidi, but not all that much later, and he's a primary source for much of what we know about early Islamic history. As for your insistence that Aisha was married at 6, using "marriage" for the ceremony that occurred is misleading -- betrothal would probably be more exact, as the marriage wasn't consummated and Aisha continued living with her family. Insisting on using "marriage" in this context is irresponsible, especially as this is a contentious question.

"early" was used in a misleading manner, insinuate that tabari lived before Boukhari or muslim, and that it was him who reported the hadith, whereas he just reported the work of Ibn Ishaq... and Tabri lived FOUR centuries after the death of Mohamed.

Consumed or not consumed, a marriage is a marriage, and it was explicitely said that she had sexual relations 3 years later after the marriage the reader cannot be mislead. in my family the same thing happens, sometimes couples start living together for one or two years after the marriage... it's not just a betrothal that could easily be cancelled, and the reader HAS to know that Aicha agreed when she was only 6 years, this is a very important fact that should not be disguised. --Agurzil 17:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Accusing everyone else of ignorance and illogicality befits your namesake, the Berber god of war, but it doesn't help us work together to produce useful articles. Zora 11:24, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I accused the guy who reverted my edit.--Agurzil 17:23, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)