Talk:Armenian genocide: Difference between revisions

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm|^(talk) 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Fadix Analysis:
This section exist to answer Torque claims and is kept up to date (new materials posted as well as new answers). (VERY LONG PAGE)
Archive 1:
Hitler's quote and Holocaust, The rest of discussion, Strong bias, Events of Musa Mountain, Musa Mountain, Move Musa Dagh.
Archive 2:
Examining chiefly Turk-unsympathetic sources for the "Armenian Genocide" article, Response to Raffi Kojian, Continuing our Discussion, Reference and link titles, Is Raffi Responding Roughly?, Let us recap the foregoing discussion.
Archive 3:
Raffi, I thought you were "finished"!, 80.177.169.33, Do these people have scruples?, The original article is back, Armenian Genocide, The Vandal Speaks.
Archive 4:
Professional Denier Speaks, Denying is a Two-Way Street, Jewish lobby groups, Another Partisan at work, What does it mean when a nation recognizes the "genocide"?
Archive 5:
Need Link, The "Vigilante" has a name, History is written by winners.
Archive 6:
Disputing the Article, Fresh Overhaul, Fresh Overhaul -- Dialogue Continues. (LONG PAGE)
Archive 7:
Archive 8:
Archive 9:
Archive 10:
Archive 11:
Archive 12:

Can someone merge the archives? They all are excessively large.

...

You are not a moderator, a moderator can differentiate himself from his biases, you can't, I don't recognize your authority. Fadix 20:49, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are obligated to recognise my authority and the authority of all moderators and they recognise yours, you are welcome to ignore me but any more Personal Attacks from you will not be tollerated. Such attacks will result in your destruction, I do not WANT your destruction. I am warning you so that you dont get destroyed. This is neither a threat nor an attack - just a freindly warning. I am a moderator and so are you. Everyone on wikipedia is a moderator. Not everyone is an Admin. I know mods who turn down admin requests as it is a lot of hard work so dont underestimate/dismiss us mods.

Learn to simlify your cases, your average response to 6 lines of text is a page which is excessive. I have about 4 archives soley you answering 1 line of text with a page you pasted from somewhere. Giving links may help.
Do not "cut in" my argument like you have as then no one will know what I said. If you want to do a line by line response ident your own entry (like you did) and use bullets, also sign using --~~~~
I am not sure if all those states actualy and officialy regocnised the genocide. I would prefer you add a link to all the acceptance in the discussion page. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 22:08, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since a scientific concensus have not been reached regarding the Armenian Genocide you cannot talk in the name of the scientific community, the international comunity is not as involved as the article suggests. International comunity often refrains from involment in disputes. This article is more than simple history discussion but is a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 22:12, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I can also list 50 states who opose the genocide in the US, would not be credible. I would love to see sources. I dont want you to paste the web page I am quite capable of clicking the link you post. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 22:58, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I recognize your authority as a member and not as a moderator. I don't see where it is stated that I should recognize your authority as a moderator. A moderator is supposed to moderate, and to moderate one should be able to differentiate himself from his biases, something you are not able to do. And again, it seems that you didn't get the point. I can not attack you without intention, you perceive it as attack. I am making you charges but not attacks. I report your clear biases, call that attack I don't care, and I am patiently waiting a mediator, because I am confident that he/she will realize what is so obvious, that you are attempting to sabotate the article.

My posts are long, and I am sorry for that, I come from forums where the average posts are in the hundreds of words, I participate in a history forum where generally people post essays and studies, and I thought that Wikiepdia was such a serious place where people had actually done researches regarding topics in which they participate in. I landed up here after I realized that the Armenian genocide entry not only was clearly biased, but as well contained dubious materials, which authenticity can even not be confirmed. And to my surprise, there was the author of tallarmeniantale, the racist known spammer that was hijacking it. But by then, you had no problem in trying to neutralize it, you had as well no problem leaving only two websites supporting the genocide theses against the other position which included a bunch of links. You only decided neutralizing when Mr. Torque position was defeated and he claimed leaving. Those are facts which display your clear biases.

As for the states, had you actually visited the links I provide, you would have found the answer. The fact of the matter is that not so long ago, the Armenian genocide was to be recognized by the Federal government, internal polls suggested that it would have been passed with a majority vote. After the president talked with the Turkish president by phone, the vote was pulled out. Of course, I do not refer to those things, I do not refer about as well, to the many other countries which Turkey pressurized to pull out the votes, including Syria, Iran and Lebanon.

As for the scientific community, read few books dude, you have no clue of what you are talking about, this cases is the second most studied genocide, there are thousands and thousands of books referring to it, and you claim that it has not been established by the scientific community, that is ridiculous.Fadix 23:19, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is NOT a fourm, this is not an essay either. Historic "facts" are always contraversial. This is NOT a fourm, this is not an essay either. Historic "facts" are always contraversial. You are trying to prove armenian genocide I am trying to neither deny nor acknowlege it. THIS IS NOT A GOD DAMN FORUM LIKE you suggested, views of both parties should be voiced EQUALY. I am not even trying to deny genocide but all I request is you dont try to prove it. As far as I and every one else is concerned Neither Turkish nor Armenian nor any other Propoganda is welcome here. You cannot chase us away and force us to acknowlege your facts. You are asking me to read books, whose views? Pro genocide, anti genocide. This page is not your research paper. Untill the diplomatic dispute is resolved there are two parties should be adressed 50/50 regarding this matter. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:28, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There is no such thing as a member class, you are either a moderator or an admin. You are welcome to talk the admins in creating a 3rd category for you. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:29, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Does it sound that I am trying to “prove” anything right now? What I am saying is that your claim of equality is against the Neutral point of view, you can not suggest something is supported equally, because if you do that it is POV. You can not present something 50-50, as to suggest that two positions are equal, when they are not. I think you should reread the Neutral Point of view, what it is, and what it isn't. I tried explaining this to you, and the fact that you as a veteran don't want to abide by, is what made me suspicious about you at the beginning. Fadix 23:35, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sure if the Armenian part did not have territorial, and other demands, the issue would be much much different. There is no mention of the diplomatic sphere of this dispute, I am reading more into this matter and all I see is either sides propoganda. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:32, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I also believe second degree evidence (ie documents) are highly diputed by historic communities as they are very easy to forge, even at the time.

What I got so far from my reading: Armenians rebeled, and sided with Russians and that pissed of the centeral goverment. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The goverment ordered some/most armenians to move from what today is armenia, not all which implies that goverment wanted to spare some. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This kind of movement of people was not uncomon during both world wars. As Japaneese were forced to move, Everyone knows the story of Jews in germany. Or russian moveing it peoples. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Armenia recently declined Turkeys suggestion of exchanging notes. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Btw, please do not immidiately respond to my posts. I lost some of my work during an edit confilct. give me like 15 - 60 minutes --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Googling for Armenian Genocide. I dont have the time to graduate with a history major. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 23:41, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have no idea of what the hell you're refering to. Besides, can you genetly provide me the list of works you are actualy reading? Fadix 23:35, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What is the basis of the view percentages in the scientific category? --Cool Cat

^{My Talk} 23:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

BWAHAHA!!! (sorry could not retain myself). So Sir is neutral :)

The documents are forgeries, the Armenians were sent in russia or to pic-nick in the Syrian desert.

What is disputed among the historic community??? if you have access to online libraries or Historic publications, search for the word “Armenian genocide,” maybe http://www.questia.com/ could be a start, research the ratio if you could find any, you'll only find McCarthy, and Gunter who bases himself(as he admits) on McCarthy, the rest of the publications and discuss about the Armenian cases, the same goes with other libraries. That the majority of the scientific community recognize can even not be debated. This subject is even not controversial, there is Turkey, and there is the rest. And here you claim having read and the BS you present are the regurgitations from the Turkish government. Sorry to say you this, if the majority support the Arm”a”nian genocide theses, it should be presented as it is recognized and not as you would wish it to be presented.--Fadix 00:25, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I hope I am amusing you. :P --Cool Cat

^{My Talk} 02:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am not qualified to discuss if it happened or not. I do not have (or will ever have) phds in social studies. I do dispute your claim of historians agreeing on this matter. Normaly when someone claims entier world VS one thing thats biased. I just thing declaring a nation a bunch of "cold blooded" "Political Lying Unholy Cowardly Killers" is biased. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Besides, why does it bother you to make this article 50/50? It is not like you represent the entier scientific comunity. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

They were send from point A to B I dont see why one should call that genocide. It wasnt a genocide when the Japaneese were forced to move in the US... It wasnt pretty either. Then again if you think of one perspective the rebelious people pissed off the goverment big time. You dont expect a goverment to like you if you revolt against them. That alone does not imply a genocide, there were better ways to kill people back then. Why bother "walking" them? You might as well shoot them.

I just think you are making this article one sided. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Do you have difficulty understand what people write? While English is my fourth language, it seems that I am still clear enough to be understood. I am not saying there are no debates among scientists regarding the genocide, what I am saying is that that most scientists in the field recognize it as genocide is not debated. This is different than saying the cases is not debated among scientists. It is debated, but the debates are not regarding if a genocide really happed, even the Turkish government interpretation of events would be classified as genocide according the Genocide convention. The Turkish government theses is not supported by any serious specialist that respect himself, this is why probably most serious Turkish historians don't even comment about the event, most of the Turkish historians involved in this war are attached to the Turkish diplomacy “departments.” Avaoglu, before the wave of Turkish government intensive denial, like some other Turkish historians studied the last years of the Ottoman Empire, and cover the Armenian cases, calling it genocide.

As for Armenian genocide, the Armenian cases is present in studies of comparative genocide and war crimes. It is part, and not as alone. But there are many universities that give specific Armenian genocide courses. A quick search returned many results, here few.

http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/undergraduate/Onesemester/History/U01453.htm

http://www.teachgenocide.org/websites.htm

http://www.genocidestudies.org/Faculty/Faculty_2005.htm

Now coming to your second points. You now present your POV, which has nothing to do with the article, I have covered all those points in my exchange with Torque, Torque over the years has amassed all the relevant denialist views, and the exchanges clearly show how his arguments are weak. You have admitted not knowing much about the event and still comment about it, this clearly show that you are biased. Your theses doesn't explain why Armenians were sent in the desert, it doesn't explain why those having reached the transit of Aleppo and the city of Zor were redirected back in the desert. Your theses doesn't explain why criminals sentenced for murder were released from prisons to escort the Armenian convoys. Your theses doesn't explain why the Ottoman blocked access to relief. Why Armenians beyond the war zone were deported? Those are few examples among many I brought in my exchange with Torque. Torque has been defeated, and now he is cowardly trying to assassinate my character by doing like you, going after members and lying about me. If your position is not supported by most, it is not supported by most, and this is not my fault. The article should represent what is believed by most... space should be left for your side true, and T have no problem about that. The point here is that you want the article to present your biased view as equal as the one represented by most. You can not do that... because that would be POV, you can not suggest that two positions are equally valid. It is like suggesting that the theses of spherical earth and Flat Earth are equally valid positions. Suggestion is POV, Wikipedia should not be based on suggestion. You wanted a neutral article, so be it, I am participating in the redaction of a neutral article, so why are you now criticizing something you were responsible of. Are you telling that your goal afteral was to not have a neutral article but rather an article suggesting that two theses are equally valid. You don't want POV. Right? So why are you trying to introduce it?Fadix 03:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not see a Turkish Genocide article. According to what I read so far a mass number of Turks were also killed during the Armenian rebellion. No mention of that anywhere on wikipedia. Perhaps you can assist? If there is one its not properly linked. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:47, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

IN THE 19th CENTURY IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE: 29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha, 22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs, 33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament, 7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals, 11 Armenians served in universities as professors.

There were 803 Armenian schools employing 2088 teachers with over 80,000 pupils within the Ottoman Empire in 1901-2.

BRITISH CONSUL IN ERZURUM, GRAVES replied to the question of New York Herald Reporter Sydney Whitman "If no Armenian revolutionary had come to this country, if they had not stirred Armenian revolution, would these clashes have occurred?" as follows; "Of course not. I doubt if a single Armenian would have been killed."

Toynbee estimates the number of the Armenian losses as 600.000. The same figure appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica's 1918 edition. Armenians had also claimed the same number before. Bogos Noubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, declared that after the war 280.000 Armenians were living in Turkey and 700.000 Armenians have emigrated to other countries. According to the estimation of Bogos Noubar, the total number of the Armenian population before the war was 1.300.000. Therefore, it can be concluded that the number of the Armenian losses was around 300.000. This figure reflects the same proportion, according to their total population, of the 3 million loss of Turkish lives during the same period. Once more, facts do not correspond with the Armenian claims.

I am pasting stuff I picked up from diferent web pages. Is that just propoganda or factual, you are the knowlegable one, I am not qualified to comment. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:50, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Haven't I said that more you will participate and more your biases will be clearer for others to witness? So now, every can see your copypast job from revisionist sites. If you pied a little attention to the discussion between me and Torque, you would see that all those points were covered.

It is nothing surprising that there was an Armenian foreign minister, and finance ministers, because Armenian was even somehow considered as the official Ottoman foreign relation language because the Armenians were the economical power in the empire, and without including Armenians there, it was impossible for the Ottoman to get the Ottoman run. Actually, this is my specialisation regarding the genocide, one of the major reasons why the Armenians were destroyed was because they were controlling the Ottoman economy, and it was the major barrier against the Young-Turk nationalization of the economy. Was this a favourable treatment of the Armenians? I think the question should rather be: “Could the Ottoman have excluded the Armenians from those key positions?”

I will present you an incomplete list representing Ottoman debts. And those only what they owned to France, Germany and England.

France: 3,285,272,377 Frs(Francs)

Germany: 1,443,486,506 Frs

England: 813,312,496 Frs

I don’t know if you can imagine what this money represent, for the time, it just mean that the Ottoman economy was crumbling, and the debts were only growing years by years, without Armenian ministers of finances or a foreign minister, or ambassadors, there was no way to get those loans, there was no way to make run the Ottoman economy. This is the whole point here, the Armenians were not really placed there because it was a favour the Ottoman were making to the Armenians, but rather the Ottoman needed Armenians in those key positions, it was mutual benefit.

As for the Armenian schools, what is the relevancy? The Ottoman Armenians were controlling the Eastern commerce with Persia etc. obviously the ottoman had to benefit education for its subjects, without it, it would have crumbled, how this has anything to do with 1915?

As for the British Consul, this comes from Uras File, the father of the Turkish government propaganda machine. The original of this was a record for the events of the 1890s, the actual quote has been translated by Uras by modifying it, the English version is probably a re translation of the Turkish translation of the English version. First, it has nothing to do with 1915, but 1890s... second of all, what happened in the 1890s resulted from the refusal of the Armenian subjects to pay the unfair double taxation... but this is unrelated with what happened in 1915. the revisionist like you, since they have no valid materials supporting their theses rely on such irrelevant references.Fadix 03:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I told you to stop acusing me of things. I am merely pasting what i found conflicts with what you are claiming, the oposong view. As you are the only person knowlegable regarding the issue and are neutral I was expecting a response. What you call bias is the other view, which you claim is complete bs. I am kinda confused. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 05:16, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So armenians living in poverty were killed in mass quantities for money? I doubt the people marching were the richest. I believe in reviewing all facts. If that makes me a revisionist so be it, hate me. I still like to rethink things and make sure the data is acurate. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 05:22, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC) I am treating you in a civil manner, I expect the same kind of respose. You will stop acusing me of things or I will file a complaint regarding personal attacks which is more serious of an offense than vandalising. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 05:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also please provide what source you relied on determining what US states recognosed the genocide?

It's interesting that figures used showing how many Armenians had reached respectable government positions in the early twentieth century somehow suggest the Genocide didn't occur. These people in Istanbul (Bolis) weren't moved away when the new policy started. They were shot. Dmn / Դմն 15:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On Coolcat's use of the term "moderator"

Please don't make up quasi-authoritative terms like "moderator". We are all equal as editors--including the administrators. None of us has any authority on content and it is inappropriate to demand that anyone recognise such authority. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:36, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Current dispute/disagreement

At this point I am disputing the statistics regarding...

Scholars, who is pro / who is against. Given the nature of this article it being a diplomatic dispute there is significant propaganda and bias from both sides. Information regarding the ratio between scholars in the lead section is in aproporate in any cases, as the article itself should prove the case for the reader without initial conclusions. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 15:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The article has little regarding the oposing view. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 15:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Some categories in the article are in aproporate, they should be sub categories.
Basis of some sections factuality is open for discussion and those chunks should be comented out and discussed by knowlegable people from both the pro and anti genocide spheres. One person alone cannot be the sole sorce of our information regarding this or any article. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 15:11, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Like I said earlier I am not knowlegable enough to comment or argue with material on the article, I only pasted information form web pages. What you interprete from them is a bit different from mine, People in High places implies there were no racial hostilities towards the group of people before an event. Article currently acuses the Turkish side of a genocide and suggets All Armenians were 100% innocent in the hole matter... The rebellion suggests that was not quite the case. You arguing with me is rather pointless all I am trying to prove is that tere is an oposing view that is not a part of the article. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 15:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article reveals more of the diplomatic and social aspect. Its mostly neutral still pro Genocide but has views of both parties.

"It's easy to understand why views like Akcam's aren't well-received in Turkey. Most Turks honestly believe their country is being asked to admit to crimes their ancestors did not commit. Turks also believe that any admission of genocide would lead to demands that Turkey pay restitution or give back land in eastern Anatolia -- ideas Armenians haven't dismissed. "

[[1]]

This aryicle is not pro-genocide, it just take a neutral point of view. And this is where the present Wikipedia entry is leading us. Fadix 16:29, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Excerpts:

"Just as a sense of enmity was building against Turks by Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, and other subjects, so too were Turks becoming less tolerant of these peoples who, in their view, were traitors and ingrates."

"By mid-1915, [Enver Pasha] decided to rule out any future use of the Armenians by Russia by moving over 1 million people out of the war zone. Deportation had begun."

"At the same time and in the same region [as the Armenians], Turkish and Kurdish deaths were also very high"

"Ottoman officials clearly failed in their responsibility to protect the deportees from attacks by Kurds, deserters, and others. While famine, disease, severe weather, and a general lack of supplies seemed to affect everyone along the eastern frontier, it was the Armenians who, once unarmed, faced added perils from marauders, bandits, and undisciplined Ottoman officials and constabularies."

"'where Armenians advanced and retired with the Russians [the Armenians] retaliatory cruelties unquestionably rivaled the Turks in their inhumanity.'"

"The massacre of the Armenians, Armenian collusion with Russian forces, the aggressive policies of Russia, and the plight of the Turks and Kurds in the eastern provinces are important, emotional, and far-reaching questions that should be further researched. It is to the Library of Congress rather than the halls of Congress that we should turn to find answers surrounding the great tragedy that befell the Armenians and others."

[[2]]

--Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:02, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Those are selective quotes regarding the turkish government position, you can not present this as neutral... now people can understand on what you are after. Fadix 16:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat, stop contradicting yourself

Were you not the one deleting from the article, the Turkish government point of view? I gave a section as support for the other side, but you deleted preferring hijacking the article by merging both point of views as one. You have chosen to do that and I have warned you that if you do that, it will obviously lead the reader to conclude there was a genocide. I accepted to make a huge concession, you deleted it yourself and now you “cry” that the article is not neutral.

The other side you copypast has nothing to do with 1915, if you read revisionist materials, a large part of them are unrelated with 1915-1917, what do you want me to do? Is the Armenian genocide entry not about 1915-1917? And I renew my offer to present both point of views independently, presenting the strong arguments and the critics made about them. But again, the article will still lead the reader to think that there was a genocide. What you want me to do about that, since even the Turkish government version of the event would still be a genocide under the UN convention, this is why any serious historians and specialists claim it to defy logic.

And now, you are interpreting the event, this is your POV, you admit not knowing much about it, yet you affirm. People that knew me past over 5 years ago, when I was posting in a Turkish board, I didn't knew much about the topic, the first work I have read was a denialist work, my position really reflect my study about the topic, and here I am more moderate than many specialists that claim that debating with the other side doesn't even worth losing your time.

You made an interesting point last, I ignored it, I was upset about myself for ignoring it. You claimed that Turkey proposed to exchange documents but Armenian refused, those are things that give you away, I don't buy you anymore sorry. Because if you weren't biased to begin with you would understand the refusal.

This is not about convincing Armenia, this is about Turkey showing that the question is debated. Because if Turkey was really sincere, it will invite the Holocaust and Genocide specialists around the world to discuss about the issue. And here is the point, they already have invited specialists, and not only Armenian specialists have refused over the years, but as well neutral ones... specialists are not interested to trap themselves in a political discussion, when their study is historical.

Coming to your points.

1- That most scholars recognize is not a dispute, if most believe it it should be written, and ideally, the reason for this should as well be said.

2- I proposed to divide the article with the different point of view, you ignored my proposition.

3- Make some propositions

4- I discussed with Torque, he lost his cases, the informations I provide regarding the camps and the special organization can not be rejected, other than claiming forgery and propaganda... but those are not valid explanations, since the sources are Ottoman records and German records.

And lastly, again expose your clear biases, the said rebellion you reported has nothing to do with 1915, the records are about 1890s, and the source is Uras collection of files, he was the master Ottoman propagandist at the time and known as the father of denialism.

The extend of “racial hostilities” still debated, and has nothing to do regarding whatever or not the government took the decision of destruction, this is what is important here, the subject is 1915-1917, and it is about what is called the Armenian genocide. Fadix 16:18, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You can ignore my cases, you are not the one who will be putting material to the article, we have a person doing that for us. You talked Torque to death, you are tallented in that, you dont want to make any comprimises, that genocide is a solid fact, this is rather fanatic if you ask me. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:35, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I added and removed the "Turkish point of view" and "Armenian point of view" as it was leading to bias and was being a very difficult edit. Besides they can be merged. I was working on this article long before you showed up and claimed you were tha absolute authority regarding this matter. All you did was talk several people to death. I seriously discourage that. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:42, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am by providing counter interpretations that you are not as neutral as you claim. I learnt a lot while studing the matter. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Where is the hidden camera? That is really becoming surreal. What are you talking about? I discussed with Torque, because he was the only opponent that knew a little about it, while I know his racist nature and how it had no place in Wikipedia, I still talked with him, because I thought your side should have a representation.

Now you claim I am not neutral. Duh!!! Who told you I am? I am convinced a genocide happened, this is a surprise for no one, I have been reading regarding the subject for over 5 years, have read over a hundred book, references to over 500 others, countless numbers of essays. And Torque that consider me as a less than an animal won't deny that. It is obvious that after reading the bunch of materials I will have my opinion. But again, this is not relevant here, you asked a NPOV article and I will give you one, but the article should be accurate, if a claim is made, it should said by who and why... if something is supported by most, it should be indicated and the why as well, this is what should be ideal, what should as well be ideal is attaching to each point of view its critics... ideally, both side should be included independently with their strongest arguments. But the problem being that one side has a bunch of more arguments and is supported by much more people, still people that will read the article will think that the article support one position against the other. But this is to the reader to judge. You can not delete one sides argument to make the cases as 50-50, because if you do that you will mislead the reader, you will introduce a POV, which will be that two positions are equally valid.

So, Coolcat, that didn't knew much about it few days ago, has learned a lot now just by going after sites which support his position and reading few quotes. I changed my mind, it isn't surreal, it is humoristic. Fadix 17:03, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What I learnt so far:

What can we put in as facts into this article:

People on both sides died according to britsh archives which should be the most accurate as they were in the capital of the Ottoman empier for over 4 years. Ottoman Archives hold 700+ years worth of data so I strongly believe they made coppies.
Terrorism by ASALA, to proove genocide (dont ask me the logic), how many diplomats died, etc... Could be placed in recent history timeline.
Armenians are the "most loyal" hence not infadels as article suggests. They did revolt and sided with the enemy. There is a word for that, trechry. I think this is a fact as both sides agree on this one.
The goverment ordered some/most armenians to move from what today is armenia, not all which implies that goverment wanted to spare some. This kind of movement of people was not uncomon during both world wars. As Japaneese were forced to move, Everyone knows the story of Jews in germany. Or russian moveing it peoples. Commenting on the motive should be done very carefully as the dispute dances around this.
Armenia recently declined Turkeys suggestion of exchanging notes. Good timeline candidate.
No international court rulings, hence this article diplomaticaly, and actualy is a dispute. Historic facts are only established through such courts.
Both sides agree people died, clasifing it as genocide is the dispute, how many people died is uncertain as body count based on race is difficult, your average Armenian does not look too teribly different from any other race in the area.

The article is limited to explaing 2 years of the process of this event. What lead tho this event and anythging prior that affected this is not clearly stated. Article should be more of a bullet format than storry telling, that ends up with too many one sided comments which shifs the interpretation of the fact. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1- British archives support the theses of genocide. If you claim that the British archive say else, it would be an inaccurate information.

2- ASALA did not exist to “prove” genocide, it was called a justice group, and was about forcing the Turkish government to recognize, and take over what they considered as occupied lands, this is unrelated to the Armenian genocide. You can not present something that brings no “informational” statement regarding the topic at hand.

3- No, Armenians did not revolt or committed treachery, even the Turkish foreign ministry official released archives don't report that Armenians were deported because they committed anything. If you claim that happened it is POV, you can not present the Turkish government version as NPOV.

4- Most Japanese did not die during the deportation, etc. it is not the same thing at all, this is an interior movement of people without destination... in which over half perished. The Ottoman barred access to relief, they released from central prisons butchers to escort the convoys, those are recorded by German and Ottoman documents. If you make the statement you propose it would be POV.

5- Armenia has no note to exchange with Turkey, Armenia is just a country like others that recognize the genocide. Armenia as it declared many times has no political aim with the question, the genocide is historical, Turkey want it to make it political... it wants to pressurize Armenia, because it lost when it claimed that historians should decide. Historians decided and now Turkey last chance is to exchange with a country that it closed its borders with.

6- There are international court rulings, the Permanent People Tribunal has ruled for years(1984), The Ottoman Martial Court in 1919 concluded it was an act of planned extermination. The UN recognize it, and many such bodies. So your claim is wrong, if you write that, it is a wrong information.

7- Coolcat, it is obvious you are not a native English American, you words are middle Eastern in Nature, because you would not have used the term race to differentiate peoples of different ethnic groups, you are mistaking ethnic groups with races. Beside that, everyone agree that in World War II, people died, everyone agree that Germans and Jews died, recent statistics shows that more German died, but the Holocaust entry is about the losses of Jews etc. not Germans. The Armenian genocide is about the Armenian losses and not other peoples losses, if you introduce other informations, they have no place here.

Lastly, what lead to the event is World War I, I would have no problem including 1914, but again, it won't support your cases, because there are nearly no records from your side for those years, while there exist German records regarding crimes against the Armenians. Since I am kind, I am trying to neutralize. Just try the mediation, you'll see that the article is more on your side than what a neutral article would be. Fadix 16:49, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok so,

1. Mass number of non-Armenian Ottomans did not die during the the incident in the region.
2. Asala is no way related to this discussion.
3. Armenians were ordered to move for no reason. They were siting there and in no way aiding the Russians, nor did they revolt against the ottoman empier. Prior to the incident Armenians were perfect ottoman citizens.
4. Ottoman economy was storng enough to ship people from Armenia to Syria, they had alternatives they did not use
5. This news article on LA times is forged: [[3]]
6. The UNs, Permanent People's Tribunals, and the Ottoman Martial Courts ruling has authority to settle disputes, and are recognised by both goverment as binding.
7. I am not a British American, I do not like your constant interigation regarding me, this is not a discussion regarding me nor is it a forum, thats a personal attack, discuss material regarding Armenian Genocide not me. My information tells you how inacurate the statistics can be, I use race to define ethnic groups because I am too lazy to type ethnic groups over and over and over as I do not enjoy rambling with increadably boring and unbroken sentence moving from topic to topic quite hypnotic... @_@ It also tells you that we are not 100% sure of a Genocide did happen, we know people died. That does not necesarily imply a goverment-backed extermination plan.

And what I dont like (my pov)

1. Being constantly acused of things.
2. Armenia, Armenians using/exerting presure on various politicions on various countries and to exert presure to another nation, toying with the dignity of the countriy they live on. Its almost imposible to win support of Armenians in the US without acknowleging the genocide, else you dont get the votes and the other party does for examle.

My side is neutrality. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 17:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1- The ratio of Armenians having died, with Assyrians(this should be covered as well), is beyond any other groups. Besides, this is the Armenian genocide section, Ottoman losses should be included in the World War I section, and if you visit its talk page, I have raised the point regarding the low figures representing the Ottoman losses.

2- ASALA was active in the 80s, it was a terrorist organization, it has no place in the genocide article, if you claim there is, you are completely biased.

3- No government take decisions for no reason, genocides don't happen out of the “blue moon,” of course there are reasons, like there was reason to destroy European Jews, like there was reasons for the Outous to destroy the Toutis, like there was reason for the Kmer Rouge Class, to hierarchical Kmerian system, which lead to the destruction of over a million people. There was reasons behind the Ukrainian famine, there was reasons behind the German policy against the Herreros at the beginning of the last century. The thing here is, about a decision which led to the destruction of the Armenian community in Anatolia. Do you see any Armenians there now? No!!! That we take the Turkish government theses or that we take the theses most supported by specialists in the field, the result is the same. Zero Armenians, and it is enough to be applicable as genocide under the UN convention. And this is the main weakness of the Turkish government theses of “no-genocide,” because even their version is genocide according to the definition.

4- The Ottoman took hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants from the Russian Empire, they fed them, vaccinated them, recorded them and “relocated them” and “deblocked” an amount of money. They had enough capability to have such precise lists etc. but surprising as it seem, there are no such lists for the Armenians who were their own subjects. It was harder for the Ottoman to deport the elderly, women and children, then leaving them... they did it regardless even if they were no threat. The Ottoman “evacuated” Armenians outside of the war zone... when they did not need to do so.

5- I don't see how this news support your case.

6- You ask for court cases, and when I provide them you tell me they are not valid.

7- I did not claim “British” American, but native English American, I dough English is your first language, that is all, it is not the first time you alluded to race, you used the term racial as well... you use such terms that are pass dated in the American society, those terms suggest hatred or racial characterizations, your words such as “attacking a nation” etc. as well, those are not attacks, those are relevant here, they are about your biases... you are hiding under the banner of neutrality to go and hijack entries about Turkey, and now you have been exposed to be the totally biased person you are. You are in no position to claim anymore that I am biased, when you are obviously more biased than I.

1- I am not the one posting in other members pages and accuse others on their backs, you are, when I think something about someone, I tell him, and I don't see what is wrong here, I don't see how I am against the rules to claim that someone has a hidden agenda because he introduce his biases in every given occasions in every articles involving Turkey. Am I accusing you? Yes! I won't deny, I am happy though that you are not using the term “attacking” anymore.

2- Your second point is again another evidences of your non-Western mentality, this is generalization and has no place in Wikipedia, you think a world Armenian conspiration, similar than those theses of world Jewry conspiration support by people like Zundel. What you think of a “people” has no place here, what you think an entire nation does or does not has no relevency, it only confirm my suspicions about you. If you can't confront my position, fine, but stop accusing an entire nation... because this is an accusation, and not the genocide, the genocide is about leaders of a government having ordered something in this cases, while you accuse an entire people of doing things. I think we had enough of Torque racism, no need to pull fuel here.

And no, your side is not neutrality, your side is personal POV. Fadix 17:54, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1. There are no official numbers hence your statement has absolutely no basis.
2. All entries that did not happen in the era, for example the P.L.U.C.K. entry and bush not using the word genocide should be removed in that case.
3. I am not sure if there is enough basis in your statement supporting it was a genocide. I am suggesting that the goverment ordered some armenians to move. That is not necesarily classified as Genocide.
4. Ottoman empier did not have the cash to buy enough bullets.
5. You are not reading the article then.
6. A binding internattioal courd did not happen, hence none of them are relevant enough, hece you cannot accuse Turkey of a genocide in the article.
7. I am sick of your personal attacks towards me the term persoanl attacks refer to a wikipedia policy which you have been abusing and ignoring.

...

1. I would like to let you know I now am filling a complaint in personal attack page.
2. It is my Point of View, you were not expected to reply to it, you have no respect to what other people think. You are the one accusing me of things. I did not acuse you of anything. I can complain what you are doing here to anyone, I cant reason with you on the sole fact that your views are rather fanatic.

You suggest everyone that does not think like you do to completely hide their views and hide in a dark corner I guess, I am allowed to pu my POV as they are relevant to the articles NPOV status. If my views and your views clash, there needs to be a neutral tone at those parts. Meaning when we talk about Armenians lobying outside of Armenia we need to empfisise what both parties think about it. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 19:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat, this is a question of probability and mathematic, and not because you oppose to my views. What is the probability to have a complete neutral stranger who not only participate in every possible entries regarding Turkey, not only do he introduce his biases, not only does he leave biases introduced in one direction and not other, not only that he uses the term “Arm”a”nian... but that he comes here and question the veracity of the second most studied genocide. What do you want me to say? At least, my position is supported by the specialists in the field. There are even a Turkish organization in Germany working in the prevention of genocides that not only do recognize the genocide but as well petitioned among the Turks and got 10,000 names(Turks) asking the recognition of the Armenian genocide. I have a Turkish friend that has gone in the East, and there are stories of colored reddish send, they believe the sand is red because it has been colored by Armenian blood, in the New York Times few years ago, there was an article of someone that interviewed Turks in the East about “stories” of Armenian massacres. You don't expect me to consider you as neutral after all those things are you? In fact, wait till the mediation start out, and you will clearly see that my position will be considered much more neutral than yours.

What is the point of the Armenian lobbying group, are you suggesting that they buy the academia? Don't you believe that the Turkish government pressures forcing countries to redraw resolutions more than counter balance any lobbies? Don't you believe that all those millions spent by the Turkish government more than counter balance it? Don't you believe that the founding and funding of Ottoman chair of histories by the Turkish government, and the introduction of grants such as the ITS and ARIT, more than compensate the Armenian lobby? The Armenian lobbies power is insignificant when comparing it to the power of a government that spent millions, that introduce itself in universities Middle Eastern Departments, and directly pay “specialists.” Or what to say about those hundreds of diplomats hidden under their diplomatic protections distribute in every given occasions diplomatic publications, which material will be called racist by Western standards? Of course the Neutral you has nothing to say about that, but you have a problem with Armenians fight against the denial. Don't you have any idea of how the ASALA was born, do you know why it was in the 70s and 80s? Wait till I cover and neutralize the ASALA entry.

And again, I am not against the presentation of the Turkish government theses, I did post it, you deleted it, what you are after is to present it as equal as the genocide theses by deleting who says what and why they say it, this is a clear attempt of hijacking an article and is against Wikipedia policy.

Now, let cover your 7 points.

1- There are the official Ottoman records of 800,000 killed, and there are the quota submitted during the Military tribunal, the German and Austrian records present as well over a million, that we take the Ottoman records or its allies records, we come to over a million deaths, and this clearly show that over half of the Armenians did perish.

2- P.L.U.C.K sing about the genocide and is in a “war” to get it recognized, Bush statement is about the event.

3- You want the article to present your POV here, it is your point of view, while I present the theses supported by people, what you think is irrelevant.

4- True, and that is why most Armenians were not shut, but killed by various other methods.

5- The article is about the Turkish government asking to research the matter, it is a political move, I have covered this in my discussion with Torque, you tell me to answer when I have already answered those points, but of course you're not interested reading what I write, but rather googling trying to find revisionist sites.

6- The Permanent People tribunal has an international mandate, and has covered over the years many other cases, the Ottoman Military court has concluded “extermination” planed and executed by the government... the leading figures were condemned to death. The UN recognize it as genocide, and any such bodies, what you claim here makes no sense at all.

7- Oh LALA, now you are using the term attacks, which attacks? I am accusing you and not attacking you. Oh and it is kind of ironic that you accuse me of what you are doing, from when did I write to other members lying about you like you did with me?

1- Go ahead, you are free to do what you want, if you expect to shout the other position with such cheap tricks without you can't confront with arguments, go ahead.

2- Shish, my views are fanatic? Well, go call the academic community as fanatics because they support my position then. Again, you are lying about me Mr. While me accusations have grounds, you accuse me with things which you yourself know are untrue. Where did I even prevented the other side to have its point of view? I even have gone as far as posting in a forum where Mr. Torque spam with his racist rhetoric to come and participate in the mediation. Does it sound that I am for the suppression of the other side? Mind you again that I even posted the Turkish government version but you deleted it because it was specifying whos position it is. You don't want people to know who says what, and here is where my problem is with you. Fadix 20:37, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Relocation, deportation

In some cases the word relocation could be used, because of what was supposed to happen... example, the Ottoman at the beginning relocated, but in some other cases, when the result is important, the word relocation is not accurate... Because if we have in mind that there is no Armenian left, the result would be "deportation" instead of relocatiom. I will see how the change in some instances could be made.

Relocation is better as it gives importance to the actual movement. Many weaker people died during forced relocations to Syria. Deportations usually have legal bases in international and/or domestic laws. Dmn / Դմն 19:14, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but my main problem is that relocation in many instances suggest a success of this movement.

There are many other things I would like to cover in the section, like the Orphans etc. with pictures and stuff, but I wonder if I should include them here or have an entry as itself. Another thing is the 1917-1922 years which are called the second phases or third(because some devided the 1915-1916 and 1916-1917, which would make it third)... that should as well be covered, this I think should be done in this entry, because there is no proper title for it. The UN recognition and the word Genocide and the Armenians should as well be included. Is there a way to know how long the present article is so I can know how much more could be added? Oh and, about the capitals Armenians being shut, they were not only shut, according to German materials, about 30,000 were "relocated." Fadix 19:33, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are of course right - I didn't mean all those living in Istanbul were shot, I meant a lot of those in high offices were shot.

The concentration camp term

Without its uses the article is not accurate, there was no reported 25 to 26 camps, but concentration camps, there were transit camps, and "spot camps" etc. The article as it is can not be accurate, because the reader would think that this actualy present all the camps. I will modify it and will be trying to be neutral. - unsigned fadix

I recomend no one to touch article directly. Mediator(s) should be handling this matter. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 20:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fadix is not being neutral in my opinion. Please vote if you agree or not, I am trying to determine if its just me or him... -_- : --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

   * Yes --Cool Cat  ^{My Talk} 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please, this is just unacceptable... This "vote" is among other things in itself a violation of the wikipolicies Assume good faith and No personal attacks. Also, we are supposed to discuss the article here on the talk page, not individual editors. Stereotek 20:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What load of crap is this attempt? Where did I ever claimed I was neutral? I do have my opinions about the event, but this does not mean that the articile is not neutral, there are hardly anyone neutral about a topic. So I will even say yes and agree with you on your own vote, because I have nothing to hide.

But the question here is not about if I am neutral or not, but rather if your intention is to make the article neutral or not. This is what should be passed on vote here. But we know that because of the nature of this subject, the votes will be biased to begin with. Fadix 20:40, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry I am failing to reason with you. You dispute any view that remotely prompts that the genocide was not really a genocide, you call al of that bias, you call me names you acuse me of various wierd things, I am sick of being polite. You scare away people from the conversation, you can never prove the genocide on wikipedia. Its against the norms of wikipedia, the oposing view is either not represented, or represented vaugiley. Any person reading that article would think that a genocide happened, after reading the article a person should be indiferent. Any acusation must have a counter. I type something you either call me biased as an answer or you dismiss it completely. Thats not how we do things on wikipedia. I have seen lots of complaints by various mods... I dont like it. THis is not being productive at all. Fadix is terrorising the article...

References

Fadix, you have been adding a lot of information to the article recently. As a suggestion, I think the quality of the article would be higher, if you mentioned all your sources in connection with all the pieces of information. You might want to read this: cite your sources Stereotek 20:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I thought about that, I was thinking of how doing that, any idea? Should I present the references as footnotes etc. ?

OK! I think I know how to do it... is there a kind of wiki language which will permit me to go at a specified zone in the page to get the footnotes? I thought as well adding a page Armenian Genocide References etc. EDIT: I'm dumb, it say how to do it in the link you provided.

Coolcat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Genocide

According to Ericd, "They are clearly established cases of genocide the Holocaust, Armenian genocide (despite Turkish denial) and Rwanda. I don't think NPOV should go as far as leaving a loophole for Holocaust deniers."

And that was my position at the beggining, and I could have defended that position that would have had chances to succeed, but I was kind enough to present your point of view in the article more than it had place in.

Oh is that it, despite Turkish denial, the views of several million people is irrelevant. This article will either be neutral or either be neutral. you will not use wikipedia as a tool to spread your views. I deny the holocoust, so does a lot of scholars. You will NOT use wikipedia as a propoganda tool. The very concept of NPOV means NEUTRAL point of view, that aint neutral as long as there is an oposing view. I want an article thats not offensive to either side. Currently it has staemets like "the rest of the children were to be sent to the mezzanine floor to be killed by a mass gassing installation" or "Many of those responsible for the genocide where sentenced to death in absentia, after having escaped their trials in 1918. The accused succeded in destroying the majority of the documents, that could be used as evidence against them, before they escaped. The martial court established the will of the Ittihadists to eliminate the Armenians physically, via its " are not neutral. Since Fadix dictates recent history cannot be a part of the aticle recent history section shoukd either go or material oposing the genocide must be added.