Talk:Armenian genocide: Difference between revisions
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<b>Fadix Analysis:</b> [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Fadix Analysis|Fadix Analysis (575 kb)]] |
<b>Fadix Analysis:</b> [[Talk:Armenian Genocide/Fadix Analysis|Fadix Analysis (575 kb)]] |
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==Oberiko's conclusion of the page== |
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After reviewing the two pages, I'm going to have to side with the current version. I find that what Fadix labels "vandalism" is far from it and there is a tendancy by Fadix to remove anything which has a negative impact on the Armenian side of the discussion (The removal of references to ANSLA, official Turkish websites etc.). |
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I should state that I have not read the full discussion (I don't think anyone has time for that), I have simply compared the two versions of the pages as presented with the twoversions tag. [[User:Oberiko|Oberiko]] 08:25, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::I have plainly shown that what the new user has done could be called as vandalism, in my talk page. What I have against the current version has nothing to do with me wanting supressthe opposing view, since I was the one that added a section to present it before Coolcat deleted it, to get the entire website as it is presented by the Turkish government. As for the ASALA removing, let me tell you that I was at first against the entire post genocide timeline, and that the deleting of it was more about the wording and the way it was presented, including the ASALA entry and the way Coolcat has worked on it.(the ASALA entry since then has been neutralised, not by me but others) So, I ask you before making charges against me, to follow the discussion closer. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 13:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::You declare yourself as pro too easily and too fast. The way you own the article is not apriciated. POV, which is your claim btw, is never vandalism. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::You are just repeating the old rhetoric of yours, you don't need to do that, I'm not the bone head you think I am. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 04:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: I do not like the way you treat everybody who disagrees with you. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:36, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::Don't make this as if I treat “anyone” that disagree with me, this is me, and others, against your behavior at Wikipedia. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:09, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::Oberiko and others are not a persons? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::And how I "treat" him? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Cezveci's Conclusions on the Discussion== |
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::<small>original section name introduced by [[User:Cezveci]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Armenian_Genocide&diff=next&oldid=11823377 here]. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 00:33, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)</small> |
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My conclusions are the following. I believe they will be reviewed objectively and with Coolcat's constructive and responsible efforts, the article will be put in a more neutral shape. I would like to mention the general conclusions I draw from the discussion below. Extensive support for these conclusions can be found in the discussion below. I will also note what I believe needs to be done specifically for each item. I will try to be objective. (As I don't know the gender of anybody, I will use they even while mentioning one person) |
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* Fadix and many others who edit this page are pro-Armenian propogandists with extreme prejudice against Turkey. |
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:::::What you claim and what “is” are two different things. The article was presenting positions, before you have edited it and present your POV as historical facts, never, including in my first version before its neutralization, I had presented anything the way you did, but I guess that administrators like Tony rather prefer giving equal weight to them like you, against researchers. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* Fadix discloses facts only partially to alter to truth. In other words, they make the reader derive the conclusions they want by stating irrelevant facts, while hiding the underlying relation. |
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:::::The article before you edited it presented parties position, without presenting them as facts... each things were “according to” while your editions are “this is what...” and this is POV. But according to Tony, POV is good faith. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* Fadix deletes new contributions by accusing them with vandalism, without even reading them (They confess this below). Without question, this itself is vandalism. |
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:::::Those are your words Coolcat, I did read, and even shown the ridiculous additions and modifications of the NPOV article. And where did I confess anything, care to show me? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::I confess I added Star Trek next to Star wars. I am a Federation Nationalist long live the Federation! Death to the [[Klingon]] Empier. I have to be sarcastic when I am this bluntly and falsely accused. |
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* Fadix does not discriminate between facts and their interpretations. They delete simple facts about actions of people based on their assumptions on the intentions of these people. |
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:::::This is hypocrisy at best, that is exactly what you did in your editions, and while I reported them, you have nothing to defend why your POV should have been presented as facts. Give me just one example of POV in the original article before Tony has locked it on your vandalism. And you know well I have shown your POVs clearly, and you have even not dared denying them to be POV. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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You are not the only desicion making body in this article. Your attitude of ignoring the opposition and scaring them away is HIGHLY discouraged. |
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* Fadix and other pro-Armenians oftenly insult a nation. |
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:::::Where did I ever insulted a nation? That the Armenian genocide happened, is hardly denied by any serious academic, according to you, the academic world is conspiring to insult Turkey. And you don't even see how ridiculous such a belief is. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* Although Coolcat displays an extremely sensible and constructive approach, they are attacked by pro-Armenians (especially Fadix) with insults and baseless accusations. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:08, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::It is obvious that you will support yourself Coolcat. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::It is obvious you have no idea. It is also obvious you have no idea what is not vandalism on wikipedia, POV is never vandalism. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: I repeat, the changes were not only POV... but obvious lies, like claimed Torques site to be from Western and Turkish scholars, or regarding the so-called second meeting, or an attack in 1914 etc. Those are beyond POV. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 13:52, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: ''' Fadix is apparently accusing Coolcat of using more than one alias. The additional one happens to be mine in this case. This is a serious accusation. Note that not only he (now I now he is a he) states this accusation, but also answers me as if I were Coolcat and answers Coolcat as if Coolcat was me. This clearly is an easy way of getting around the difficult situation he fell after it has been shown that he vandalizes the article and manipulates facts to alter the truth. Anyway, I am protesting Fadix's accusation of myself being Coolcat, and I will do anything to prove that this is not true (I guess the easiest way is for the moderators to check our IPs, I am asking the moderators let me know about any other way to prove that I am not Coolcat). I also urge Fadix to apologize for this ugly and baseless accusation. """. |
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:::::::: I am not the only one that suspected you to be Coolcat. Coolcat claims he knows technology and he can post with different aliases without others knowing it, the next day, we get you editing the article the way he wanted it. |
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:::::::: So, I have been shown to manipulate facts? That's amazing, I told you to give me examples, and you were even not able to do so, while I have shown many cases of not only manipulations of facts from your part, but actual fabrication. Do you think that I need to claim other peoples are the same to support my position? Readers are free to read my answers, and they will realize that I actually answer every points you make and do listen to you. You have fabricated claims in the article, like Torques site being Western and Turkish academics website, or that Armenians attacked Muslim villages in 1914. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: '''This is in consistence with the way you write and interpret history. You just guess something, and immediately claim that it is true. I am still waiting for you to either prove that I am Coolcat's second alias, or apologize from both of us. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 21:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Can I “prove” that you are Coolcat? No! I can't. Prove is rather a strong word, in court of law, it is called “beyond any reasonable doubt” and in theory, only in math can something be really proved... in other scientific disciplines, “prove” is used with the same definition as the term used in court of law. Can I bring evidences that support my position? Sure I can, I still believe you are suspicious, and for many reasons. But does that prevented me to answer your posts? Did I used this because I could not answer you? The answer is obviously no! |
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::::::::::: '''As I told before, it can be PROVEN that I am not Coolcat's alias by simply checking our IP's. Can a moderator or anybody who has access to IP's do that for me? What you call your evidence is speculation, and it is apparent that speculation that supports your POV counts as evidence for you. You are so hysterical about your position that you cannot simply apologize by the bullshit you have thrown at the middle of the discussion. As for editing the article, I think the current working version is totally based on Armenian diaspora's propaganda, and your (as a matter of fact, I believe Fadix is the least fanatic among all of you) attitude against us makes it impossible for me (or another neutral or Turkish POV person) to contribute to the article in a healthy way. Thus, I will not continue to try to invite you to an objective POV any more and I am requesting that a disclosure about our claims of the article being soleley based on Armenian propaganda and aiming at promoting hate against Turks be placed at the top of the article. You cannot construct and maintain peace with this attitude and you cannot make Turkey open the Armenian border with this aggression, which is very important for the people who live in Armenia today. But as everybody knows, you don't care about what is good for the Armenians of Armenia, you only care about what is bad for the Turks of the world.''' [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 21:53, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::The thing is that you have posted one day after Coolcat has announced that he know technology, and that he could pass incognito. IP can be changed, by using a proxy server. And this is an easy thing to do. |
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:::::::::::::::You have edited all the sections Coolcat did not wanted to have, and this one day after Coolcat claim about “clones” etc. In such a cases, it is apparent that anyone would be very suspicious about it. |
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:::::::::::::::If I did make a mistake about that, and that in fact you are not Coolcat, I apologize, I don't find anything wrong apologizing. I will give you the benefit of the doubt. When you came in, it was a very tense time. But I still do consider your edit as vandalism, at least for the changes of Armenian genocide, to Armenian relocation. |
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:::::::::::::::Regarding the working version, I do admit there is POV in it, and I will be working to neutralize it. I know that there will never be a consensus about this. And here is why I proposed to present every parties positions and their critics at first. If you read my “Ottoman Armenian population” entry, you'll see that I did just that. And right now, I am working on the Armenian casualties entry. But it is obvious that the genocide entry will never satisfy you, as long as you think it is an Armenian diaspora ploy to get Turkey destroyed. This is not what it is. I will strongly disagree with other Armenian's about any other matters, but I believe that the genocide issue by “accident” happens to be the only thing Armenian's are over 90% right. My research about this topic, is concentrated around one of Voltaire's maxim: “We owe respect to the living; to the dead only truth.” [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:19, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::As for the way I interpret history, short of answering my arguments, it seems that you are using such cheap tricks to undo them. But this is not how it works. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:30, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: '''Special note to Fadix: I am not answering you anymore, since you showed that you don't care to read what I write in your latest replies. There is no reason to discuss with somebody if he doesn't listen to you. I have sent any source of information that you asked me, but you never cared to answer my inquiries about your so-called "proof"s. Don't even dare to compare me against grey-wolves again, I lost my family members to their cruelty. I think you here have proved several times that you are the Armenian counterpart of greywolves. You also stand as a live-proof of the hatefulness and influence of the Armenian diaspora. Thus, my position is the same against both of you. One last question, how are you so sure that I am a male and you can talk about me as "he" without any hesitation, Mr. Patriarchal Prejudice?''' [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 18:02, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Do us all a favor, show me where I did not read before I replied, you again throw words and wish they will actually stick, this is not how it works. As for the Grey Wolf, were you not the one calling Turks fighting for the advancement of the Turkish society as racists against their owns, just because they happen to run a Turkish human right organization? Such statements actually are comparable to what Grey Wolves, and the political party equivalent say about those peoples. What I said was not a cheap shot as you seem to make it look like. BTW, could you be glad to show me where I actually did not answer to your inquiries, I don't see any “non-answers?” I might be wrong, and maybe I did forget a point, show it to me so that I answer it. |
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:::::::: A last not, thanks for claiming that I am a Grey Wolf equivalent. But you shall ask Raffi, who was witness of Armenian fanatics calling me a “Turk” and how I have so much Turkish friends... one of the reasons why I was banned from a Turkish board, in which one of the moderators to justify it claimed that I was tricking people. Bad me. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: ''' I am tired of dicussing with you. YoGo find yourself you omitted answering me. Go find yourself, I asked you for the source of the turkish text, and you didn't care to provide it. Go find yourself, you asked me for my source of information, I provided the link and you didn't like it because it was showing that I am talking the truth. You are claiming you are a researcher. I am in the academy, and I know what an academic tries to. An academic tries to answer the question "why?", Fadix. An academic does not create "his" truth by generating falsified documents (the documents in ANI website for example, Talat's telegraphs...). If you are not a fanatic, if you really care about understanding the history, first answer the question "why did the turks kill armenians?" Why? If I will believe you, I have to understand that, right? But what you're doing is trying to remove all the history that will help answering that question by attacking any source you don't like. This is not an academic does. This is what a fanatic does. As Bertrand Russell states, "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." As you believe that you have been victimized so unfairly, you don't care about lying to prove your claims. Because you "believe" that you are right. I am sorry but you're not a scientist, only a fanatic. Taner Akcam is a scientist, and shame on you, you use his scientific approach to prove your fanatic claims. You have shown this by everything you made on this page. If you want to behave like a real academic, just try to answer this question first: "Why did the Turks kill the Armenians?" ''' [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 21:29, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Hola, hola... what source for the Turkish text? Did I miss something? What Turkish text are you talking about? As for the link, what do you expect me to say? Thanks, you provided the link? OK thank you... I didn't thought that each time one provide a link about something I have to comment about it, or it will be considered as ignoring the “other side.” The only reason I commented about the Turkish media, is because you implied that the Turkish media was more neutral than Western media, which obviously is wrong, more particularly on this specific subject, when the Turkish media has in various occasion just fabricated informations. And I can give examples if you wish. |
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::::::::::::Coming to Talaat documents, sorry, I do not use the internet for my research, but it happaned that sometimes I did research ANI website just to see what they had(I must admit not being impressed with the material there), but I do not remember any such Talaat telegraphs, or telegrams, can you show me where please? |
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::::::::::::Why the Turks killed Armenians? Did the Turks killed Armenians for a reason? OF COURSE!!! I have never denied that, I am not insane, it is obvious Armenians were killed for a reason, actually many reasons. Just like the Kmer Rouge killed Cambodian in their hierarchy systems, for a reason, just like the Germans have mass slaughtered in the Ghettos, or the way countless numbers of people were sent in camps to be killed in mass(of course there are revisionists like Rassinier, Faurrisson, Irving, Zundel etc. that question that those things actually really happened, each genocide has its deniers, it is a known phenomenon). For reasons... just like what was behind the Ukrainian famine. Or why the Outis butchered the Toutis. People just don't get killed without reason. |
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::::::::::::The reasons for the Armenian genocide though, are not what you claim they are... you claim the decision was taken because Armenians started attacking.(even if it were to be true, it does not justify the decision) But this theses is not supported by using the official Turkish foreign ministry released archives. The first dates in the BOA series is March 2, 1915... about a deportation, and it is said that rebellions should be prevented during it, and not that those deportations happened because of rebellions. Incidences against Armenians were reported back at middle to end of 1914. The nationalization of economy, and the Armenian presence in the East were logical factors that are supported by Turkish historians like Avioglu... and even Edip in her memoirs write that the Armenian economical power was to be replaced by the Turks and the Germans. The proposition of evacuation was actually placed on table as soon as Feb. 1914 lecture organized by a German-Turkish organization. |
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::::::::::::You may have a ground for Armenian revolt, had you talked about 1894, but not for 1915. There has been over the years(90s) people that to try to favor both the Turks and Armenians, have mixed both theses, and claimed Armenians having attacked first and were answered by a repressive system. But this position over the last years is not supported anymore, recent serious studies do not support that theses, more particularly, when more findings are done from the German archives, and that we find out, that after all those years... the Turkish government was unable to support this theses, and has relied on 1894-1896 materials to support it, by a psychology of: “This happened in 1894, and is documented, so the same thing happened in 1914-1915.” Just to give you an example, Nogales for example in his memoirs, bring this charges against the Armenian, but when we pay a closer look, he learn it once in the city, from Ottoman soldiers... of what happened that have justified the decision, but those said reports must be somewhere... but they actually are nowhere. Djemal himself write in his memoir that he was even not aware of why Armenians were moved when the decision was taken(he as one of the leaders, did not know of Armenian revolts). |
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::::::::::::Another thing, is the fact that prisoners were released the months preceding 1915... those prisoners were chosen selectively, during that time, the Ottoman still has not lost on the Russian front to accuse Armenians of anything. So this releases of prisoners to form the special organization, which will later be charged at escorting the Armenians... has absolutely no reason to exist, other than to butcher people. And, I will go as far as telling you, that there were so much evidences, that by accident the Turkish government forgot one to suppress in their attempt to clean the archives. Read No. 71, of the official documents released from the foreign ministry, I know it is Ottoman Turkish, so there are words you might not understand, I have a translation with me. It is said, that there are butcheries of Christians, from the people that were specifically sent for the task(special organization), and they call this as the “measures,” it then say that those measures against the Armenians should not be extended to other Christians, and order that those measures should only be limited to the Armenians. And from who was this telegram? From Talaat. |
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::::::::::::Now coming to what I believe. Sorry Cezveci, I do not believe the genocide happened, but I know it happened, your claim does not make sense, the first work I have read about the subject was a revisionist book, and I have read all major revisionist books. So your accusations about an unscientific approach of mine is baseless. Perhaps, shall I ask you, what book have you read about the subject? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:23, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Samples of free speech in Turkey about the Armenian issue== |
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* An article by [[Taner Akçam]] in the popular liberal paper [[Radikal]]. This is only one sample, he writes occassionally there, but no legal action is taken against either the author or the paper. http://www.radikal.com.tr/ek_haber.phpek=r2&haberno=2251&tarih=29/05/2003&ek_tarihi=25/05/2003 |
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* Taner Akçam is currently publishing a series named Ermeni Dosyası (The Armenian File) in left-wing newspaper [[Birgün]], starting March 27, 2005. No attempt to stop publication. http://www.birgun.net/ (You have to be subscribed to be able to view the series, but there is a banner for the series on the top of the page currently) |
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* [[Hrant Dink]], an Armenian who lives in İstanbul, publishes the paper named [[Agos]] in both Armenian and Turkish. Dink is definitely critical of the Turkish government's stance and ideology on the Armenian issue. http://www.agos.com.tr/ |
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* [[Halil Berktay]], a turkish historian who has recently told the press several times that he believes that the tragedy was a genocide. He is currently a professor in [[Sabancı University]] (not a prison) in Turkey. |
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Last word: I have heard the imprisonement of pro-Armenian intellectuals story from several Armenian sources. There is no agreement on the length of sentence, it ranges from 5 to 20 years. These are very easy and dirty propaganda to hide Turkey's recent friendly approach on the issue. They don't help for a solution, but I suspect the Armenian propagandists care about a solution. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::I almost forgot how Taner Akcam was jailed and had to escape from prison, or how Berktay is treated... or better the lawsuits waiting Pamuk, and how it was ordered to take his books out from the libraries. Or how Zarakollus wife and including him, were jailed countless numbers of times. I guess all this is Armenian propaganda, including this http://www.info-turk.be/ [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:06, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: You are now busted Fadix! I knew that you're so ignorant about what's going on in Turkey. Thanks for helping me demostrate how ignorantly you use irrelevant things to make your own propaganda. Akcam's and Berktay's imprisonments have nothing to do with the Armenian issue. They have been left-wing activists during the 70's. And like many left-wing activists and intellectuals, they have been imprisoned and many of them had to leave the country after the American-supported military coup. Both Akcam and Berktay have started working on the Armenian issue years after the coup. And as I illustrated above, they freely express their ideas in Turkish press. You are trying to show Turkey as a single identity without any internal dynamics, because your only aim is to promote hate against Turks. If the government attempts to pass a penal code to prevent free speech, which is unlikely because of the currently hot EU bid, a large community will be against such actions, as they support Orhan Pamuk's freedom of speech nowadays. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 17:39, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Sure, I'm busted, and I'm Santa as well. I never claimed that Akçam was jailed because of anything regarding the Armenian genocide, it had more to do with freedom of speech, I participated in a Symposium, where Akcam was present, and even talked with him. He specifically said why he was jailed, and has read the article of law he did not respect, and no, it does not exactly have to do with what you claim. The 70s student movement was not only proper to Turkey, but was as well wild spread in other countries, more particularly in France. The thing with him being jailed had more to do with supression of freedom of speech, and that was why I refered to it. As for Berktay having been jailed, don't jump on conclusions that quickly, I didn't even refered to that, but rather how he was treated in Turkey. And now, a Mayor, and others are trying to get Pamuk books banned, they have already ordered “out” his books from libraries. And no, they are not freely expressing their ideas, you should start reading the cases on the link I have provided, and you'll see that it is beyond being “Armenian claims.” As for the Turkish penal code: “Keza, bu fıkraya göre, basın ve yayın yoluyla propaganda yapmak üzere para veya yarar veya vaat kabul edilmiş ise ceza artırılacaktır: Para, yarar veya vaat kabulü suretiyle bugün Türk askerinin Kıbrıs’tan çekilmesi veya bu konuda Türkiye aleyhine bir çözüm yolunun kabulü için veya sırf Türkiye’ye zarar vermek maksadıyla, tarihsel gerçeklere aykırı olarak, Birinci Dünya Savaşı sonrasında Ermenilerin soykırıma uğradıklarının basın ve yayın yoluyla propagandasının yapılması gibi.” Matbe you should translate to all of us, what this mean. Shall you? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: This proves your intentions Fadix. You knew why Akcam was jailed, but you didn't even need to mention that it was irrelevant to the Armenian issue. Akcam's or many other people's imprisonement was definitely not fair, and there are still serious freedom of thought issues. We've been in between US and USSR during the cold war. We still have secularity-islamism issues. And we are fighting against many opressive conditions. And these definitely have nothing to do with your genocide claims. You're just taking advantage of "our" suffering to promote hate against "us". And you again fail to mention that the "mayor" who tried to censor Pamuk was stopped by the governor, and there's ongoing investigation of the "mayor"'s behavior. I will be glad to translate that text into English if you can show me that it is taken from a reliable source. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 18:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Hell my intentions, are you some kind of psychi reading on peoples mind? When I discuss with someone, usually I suppose that he is at least as intelligent as I, and I expected you to know why he was jailed, You've raised the Freedom question, and that is beyond the Armenian genocide, which means freedom does not equal with the genocide issue. But you have supposed that I had such intentions, which shows how you'd interpret anything I could say probably the wrong way. As for the mayor, I haven't heard anything about what you report, can you be glad to present me the article? Don't worry you don't have to translate it to me, I do have many Turkish friends who could translate it for me. Yeh! “Turk hating” Fadix has Turkish friends that would support him before you. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:24, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Yes, so after 90 years things have loosened up ''a little''. Find me an example from 10 years ago if you are so proud of the opennes in Turkey. And how about the ones who to this day get into trouble for talking about the genocide - including that group of Turkish teachers last year... you obviously are following the issue, why do you leave these things out? "Caught" indeed. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:11, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: My proof regarding the "free speech about Armenian issue" could not be invalidated. Fadix failed to prove that their quote dependes on a reliable source. More importantly, it is proven that Fadix tries to alter the truth by disclosing the part of truth they like (ok, let's assume you thought I knew the truth about Akcam, how do you expect the people who are reviewing this page to know all these?). Fadix apologized for their racist insults by remarking they have Turkish friends. Not accepted. (I think it should be natural for somebody mature enough to have friendships beyond any political conflict. If somebody needs to mention that, there's a problem there). Pathetic provocation attempt from RaffiKojian. Not taken seriously. My recommendation: There should be no mention about general freedom of speech in Turkey because it is irrelevant to the subject and people can freely express their opinions about the Armenian issue. Discussion of pro-genocide Turkish historians most welcome with appropriate neutralization of language (I think it is on the pride of Turkey that these people exist and publish. If you can find any Armenians living outside Turkey with a similar trying-to-understand-otherside approach, I encourage you to add discussion about them as well, it will strengthen your point.) Here's the link you need about the mayor: http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~1@w~2@tarih~2005-03-30-m@nvid~556518,00.asp (Your source of information is biased. European and American media only display negative developments in Turkey.) --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:27, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: You haven't posted anything like “proof” you have modified the article with wrong informations, you even deleted the part regarding the new Turkish penal code, while you have denied it, I have posted the original Turkish part, while you have entirely ignored it. |
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:::::::::::: And no, I have never apologized for any racist comments, because I did not make any racist insults to begin with. I have written two papers about the non-existence of races, and those that know my position regarding the entire concept of race, know that I consider "race" as a “social construct.” For those reasons, I can not “insult” racially anyone. If you want to “expose” my “racism,” I would be glad to read your theories, but let me prepare some popcorns, because I believe it would be kind of hard to show me this. |
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:::::::::::: Turks can not freely express their opinions in Turkey, you've been editing the article with false informations of a subjective freedom, while the original article referred to the new Turkish penal code that was the result of the position taken by some Turkish intellectuals. There was no POV in that, in the original form, because it was only reporting the Turkish penal code, and the freedom in question was related with the Turks whom recognize the genocide. |
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:::::::::::: As for the source of information, what you say is ridiculous, the Turkish media in one than one occasion has been accused of fabricating entire stories regarding the issue in question, I will take the Western media before Turkish media, because the standards of press are obviously higher, and they are higher than Armenia, I don't even accept as fact Armenia's media. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:38, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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We are not discussing youir views or my views in Turkish internall affairs regarding the Freedom of Speech, I do not believe Turkey has an opressive policy. I havent seen an evidence of it unless people start talking about how horible Turkey is and why they should seperate from the country. Even countries like the US do not quite allow this, esspecialy not after the Patriot Act. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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It is sensable to ask for you to stop discussing how well or how horrible free speech is promoted, but instead what the article in question. This is a discussion on <u>History</u> <u><b>NOT</b></u> <u>politcs</u>. |
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== Is the current shape NPOV? Does Fadix prevent vandalism or censor facts? == |
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My recent contributions were deleted by Fadix with accusation of vandalism. Here are my defense of my contribution. I request that the page be reverted to my final version with minor modifications to trim my possibly POV language. |
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* I added [[ASALA]]'s foundation in the timeline. This is the only time blood was shed after the tragedy of 1915 and is directly related to the issue. While a rock band's song is regarded as a related or important development about the issue, note of ASALA's existence is named vandalism? Why? Are songs more important than lives? Oh sorry, Turkish lives don't count, I forgot for a second... Or maybe you are trying to hide some facts? Speaking of revisionism, the best revisionism of history is not noting the events that occured, actually. |
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:::'''ASALA has its own entry, was a recognized terrorist organization, and its sphere of influence was beyond the recognition of the genocide.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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****** Yes it has its own entry and it has a place in timeline. It is more valuable to the material then what a buch of politicians said. |
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:::: So there should be no cross-links between relevant entries in wikipedia? A pro-Armenian band is more important than a pro-Armenian terrorist group? Why? Because Fadix doesn't want to destroy the innocent Armenian image he is drawing. ASALA is a fact Fadix, it is a FACT, you can't escape from that! [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 17:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: I was not the one including the stupid Armenian band, I hate their musics. But that band exist and is singing for the recognition of the genocide. ASALA doesn't even exist anymore, and was a known terrorist organization that has its own entry. I fail to see what that should be included, before other things that are even not included and are more relevant. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 18:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:"PLUCK" maybe offensive when expanded, maybe reword. |
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:::::: So you don't remove the bad musicians, but you remove ASALA? And you're still so shameless to claim that ASALA is irrelevant? Well Enver, Talat (not Talaaat), and Cemal (not Djemal) don't exist anymore, let's remove the whole article then. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 18:46, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::'''What kind of comparison is this, the entry is about 1915, Talaat and his team have everything to do with the entry. As for the musician, you can delete it for all I care, the only reason ASALA was deleted, actually I don't remember having done it, so it must have been the way it was phrased.'''[[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:You should be reading what you are reverting before deleting, you are required to review other peoples work before disagreeing with it. |
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::::::::: What kind of reasoning about history is this, "they don't exist any more, so let's not mention them"? Do you think everybody except yourself is fool? My recommendation: If there is a timeline, ASALA needs to have the best place there as the only blood-sheddinng development in the timeline. With appropriate neutralization, of course (it was already neutral, by the way. I did not call ASALA "Armenian" to avoid associating a whole nation with terrorists). The hateful song is welcome stay with appropriate neutralization. Please do not try to delete both, assuming that people are dumb, as you do usually. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: I am not a fool, unless you think you're one and you project others on your perceived image? ASALA is not a major news more than other relevant informations not present in the entry. The entry is regarding the Armenian genocide, ASALA like other such informations are unrelated with the occurrence of the event in question. |
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:::::::::::: Asala is related to this article more than how American Politicians reacted on 24th april, or music bands. Since this is a discussion on politics, countries that recognises the genocde today have no relevance in a history discussion. Abolish every modern event or none. No selective deleting please. |
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::::::::::: As for the reasoning of history, don't just throw words to show you have something to say. The reasoning of “history” here is the way history is studied.[[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:39, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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********* Requires documents, you should agree. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:41, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I added Turkey's recent disclosure on the issue and Armenia's answer in the timeline. This was regarded to be a very important development in both American and European media. Is American presidential candidate's statement more relevant than the accused side's milestone attempt on getting into a dialogue? |
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:::'''You mean, you've introduced your POVs as fact in the timeline.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: So, you've now answered my point? Kerry's POV is more important than the accused side's milestone action? Oh, I forgot to note, Turkish politicians also declared that Turkey is ready to face any outcome of such colloborative research. This was important, because it was showing a change in the attitude of Turkey. Many EU and US bureocrats acknowledged the improtance of this development. It does not qualify as a fact in the timeline, because you don't like the fact that Turkey is trying to find a way for dialogue? And we are "revisionists"? Look at the mirror, Fadix. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 17:50, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Turkish politicians that claimed that, wants the position to be supported by Ottoman archives, that are still not widely opened, and that were “cleaned” in various occasion by the military. They want the world to accept the Ottoman “cleaned” documents over the rest of the world documents, over the Turkish military tribunal, over anything else. This is called “selling” and not being ready to accept anything at all. More so, when a major work relating to German archives will be published in few weeks. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 18:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: The thing important is what the Turkish politicians "say", not their intentions. It is a political war and all sides, including imperialists, play their game. This development is important because it shows a significant change in Turkey's policy. Kerry's intention was getting some more votes from the Armenians, why does Kerry's position stay there? Are we supposed to censor the main actors' actions just because of your speculations? You're trying to revise today, not only the history. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 18:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::'''No, the way it is phrased is actually wrong, the meetings in question are about selling Halacoglus so-called studies and has nothing to do with discussion. Taner Akcam himself had an invitation, but he claimed that he would accept if there is a neutral mediator, Halacoglu lied and said that Akcam refused, like they've lied for Vienna. You can not use claims from dubious sources and present them as factual.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: This is about Turkey's disclosure, not the meetings. My final recommendation: Turkey's disclosure was an important milestone, and needs to stay in the timeline. Europe's and US's comments may be added as well. Good news won't hurt anybody. Fadix can write their interpretation of this development in a newspaper column, as normal people do. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:36, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: This so-called meeting was nothing important to be included with important dates, there has been many other much more important things which were true that are not included here. The info is erroneous, first of all, there never was any first meeting to begin with, second of all, such invitations of meetings happen very often, it just happen to be much more publicized this year, because of the symbolic 90 years. This information is not accurate and therefore has no place here. When I present an information, it must be accurate in the first place... and here I am speaking of the “accuracy” of the existence of the “claim.” And not the factuality. Both are different. For instance, I reject the claims made by the Turkish government, but those claims exist, the representation of the claim must be accurate. So, it should be presented. But if I claim that the Turkish government claim A, while they really claim it is B... the representation of the claim is not accurate. The meeting in question was to be a way for Halacoglu to present his “studies.” Such meetings happens each years in form of Symposiums, lectures, conferences, discussions etc. There are dozens and dozens each years. There is no way that just because this one happened to be Halacoglus studies and that he has publicized this beyond limits, that it means that it should be misrepresented by its representation. And if you read the materials regarding neutrality here in Wikipedia, you will see that this is part of what is not neutral. If you give space to something that has no reason to have this space before other more important and relevant things, you mislead the reader, and therefore it can not be accurate. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I added Armenian historian's withdrawal from the Turco-Armenian meetings. If wikipedia is about facts, and history is more factual than politics, why is historians' attitudes considered less relevant than politicians? |
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:::'''First of all, this has no place at all in Wikipedia, it is a POV from the Turkish press, the leading figure of the Turkish team is Halacoglu, a self-deceiving clown. Besides, only the reason why Armenia has refused, is self-destructive of your own claim. Mainly because Armenia has countless numbers of of times, claimed that it does not get involved in historical discussion as a country, unlike Turkey. And not only Armenian historians have refused those meetings, but international historians as well, because it was a political meeting to sell Halacoglu so-called findings, rather than a discussion panel.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Ok, we're removing this because Fadix doesn't like Halacoglu. Honestly, I don't like him either. And Turkey is side who censor everything they don't like. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19:06, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::'''No, it has nothing to do with me not liking him, but everything to do with the way it is represented, those so-called invitations are just pathetic attempts, by knowing that there is no one that would accept panels mediated by someone that is there to support a position. We all have seen the last time it was channeled in Turkish TV, about the so-called “debate.”''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I have attended to several pro-genocide American historians' seminars and they were clearly supporting a position, displaying stupid things as "proof" (before seeing them, I was thinking that the genocide theses lied on a stronger ground and believing that the Armenian lobby's influence was just our government's propaganda. How silly I was!) My final recommendation: This can be deleted. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:43, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: The Armenian “lobby's” influence is your government propaganda. To think that serious scholars will be influences by lobby's before actual studies, you must be brain washed. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:53, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I added two websites on the Turkish side's external link list. One was a propoganda site of turkish thesis, many of Armenian counterparts exist in the other list. |
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:::'''Torque website is a fraud, it has no place in Wikipedia, the others documents are already included in the other websites, it has no justification to be included.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Oh, and the Armenian sites are full of truth. I think your racist source of information info-turk.be is more reliable. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19:11, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::'''The Armenian sites are official web-sites, only Raffis site as far as I am aware of, is a personal website... and he just present publish things that are from press etc. If a Turkish website present documents that exist, that those documents are factual or not, I would have no problem including the site, but Torque site claim the existence of quotes which do not exist, this is the differences and that was why I deleted that entry. Wikipedia can not contain such site as reference.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: A website that publishes all fundemental documents that exist and is official is removed by yourself, and you're continuing to defend that decision below. My final recommendation: The link to this website may be deleted, but I think it is against freedom of speech, you don't look for quality while allowing freedom and wikipedia is not responsible for the accuracy of the external links, relevance matters. Moreover, it would be good for you if people saw that site. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:47, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: That is untrue, Torque website did contain non-existing documents, I have shown that with my exchanges with the author in question. And you have even lied by presenting the site as being from Western and Turkish scholars. Such a site has no place as references in Wikipedia, the site is a fraud. And again, let me repeat, because it seems you don't understand. The reason I deleted the website was not because it had a different opinion than I do have, other websites like tetedeturc, who bring more documents, were left untouched. The reason why I deleted that website was because it was reporting quotes that do not exist in the said documents in which they were supposed to exist in. I have compared with the originals and have shown how. Besides, the site is racist in nature, and compare Armenians as less than animals. The site in question is in the limit of legality, and I repeat, such a site has no place in Wikipedia. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:58, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* More importantly I added Turkish government's official site of Ottoman archives related to the issue. Can anything be more useful than the accused state's archives while doing research on claims? What scares you about these archives? |
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:::'''As I said, those same state archives can be found from one of the other sites already included.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: You removed that link so that below you can comfortably lie about Turkey's official archives not containing any document about the massacres by Armenians. Why shouldn't we include an "official" source of informatuion in wikipedia? Are you so afraid of the truth? [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19:13, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::'''No, the link was removed because the documents from the Turkish archives were already in the other link that was still there, and for that reason that link had no reason to be there.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: What a ridiculuous excuse is that? It is an official site, it is a source of information and my final recommendation: It should stay there. If you don't let it stay there, just put a disclosure at the top stating "You are allowed to edit this webpage only if you are on Fadix's side" --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:51, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: True, it is an official website, but I repeat, the same exact material was present in the other websites, why posting two websites which have the same documents? It is like providing two links with the same book. It is a “double posting.” [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:01, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I removed the claim about pro-Armenian-theses Turkish intellectuals being imprisoned in Turkey and acknowledged that such claims do not reflect the truth. I noted that these intellactuals are protested strongly by extreme nationalists. I corrected misspelling (which I think is disrespectful) of [[Orhan Pamuk]]'s name and noted what he exactly said (which is against Turkish thesis). I also added one more Turkish historian, [[Halil Berktay]]'s name to support your point. But apparently, Fadix does not find Halil Berktay pro-Armenian enough. |
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:::'''This was your POV, and do not reflect reality, http://www.info-turk.be/ this alone provide countless numbers of cases. What you claimed was just a pathetic lie. Without including the Turkish new penal code.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Your source of information is a racist hate-promotion site and you're accusing me, who noted the unaccepteble behavior of Turkish nationalists, of lying? So we believe racists as long as they are anti-Turkish, but we don't believe a Turk even though he is against Turkish nationalism and does not try to hide the acts of Turkish nationalists (unlike some other nationals who try hard to hide ASALA). Freedom of speech and Fadix's intention to falsify situation are demonstrated above. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::'''Before lying about the website, you should check before. The site is not anti-Turkish and racist, it is build and run by Turks, it is from a Turkish human right organization, and has bureaus and is registered officially.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: Luckily, I can recognize turkish names (not Talaat, Talat by the way, insisting on a wrong doesn't make it right, no need being allergic to Turkish language) and they are at the top of the page. And I am repeating, that is an anti-Turkist hate promotion site. My final recommendation regarding this issue is above. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:01, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: You can't just call Turks who disagree with your ultra nationalist point of view, as anti-Turks. The site is build and run by Turks that are fighting for the progression of the Turkish state, and you on the other hand, will, as an ultra national with a Grey Wolf mentality, dump them as “anti-Turks” and “racists” and slandering them. Nice job. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:04, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I think fadix you need to re evaluate where your standing as far as hatered goes. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* The current story does not acknowledge the fact that Ottomon Empire was in a war during the time and that Armenians were living on the Eastern Front. I noted that Armenian militia supported and armed by Russia did attack on muslim villages. This is a fact. Even the most pro-Armenian historians can't deny this and consider it as a mistake on the Armenian side. Why do you want to hide these facts? Is it more factual or neutral if you show the events to come out of nothing? Is it scientific? Even though there was an intention of extermination, aren't these worth note as the shown excuse? Why are you even so scared to note that the event took place during WWI? |
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:::'''This is your claims, you can not present your claims as facts, more so when the dates you propose, there was not a single German or Austrian reports testifying about it. You can not take the Turkish government theses and present it as a fact. You claim even pro-Armenian historians do not deny that, care to provide any examples please, of Armenians having attacked Muslim villages in 1914? Go ahead.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: "You can't present your claims as facts". That I agree and that I am trying to establish here. Facst are not '''your''' claims Fadix. No double-standards here. Follow what you have just stated. Armenians proudly state that there was a struggle of independence since the late 1800's. These were written here by pro-Armenians as a heroic epic (Turks are always the "others" in the language, "we" are the Armenians and imperialists). I guess you were the one who removed them. Pro-Armenian historians try never mentionining these while trying to rule out Bernard Lewis and others "provocation" theses, but when you ask them why the Greek's on the west were not relocated, they confess the "mistake" of Armenian nationalists who collaborated with Russians. You want proof of attacks on villages? But you don't believe Turkish archives. Then read the history of Dashnaks. Then go to Eastern Anatolia, go to Erzurum, Hasankala, Sarikamis, Van and listen to those people's memories. Observe the unwritten, but. Witness the tragedies of those people yourself. Not only the Turks, the Kurds also experienced the same tragedy. You accuse Turkey of denying the suffering of Armenians, but you're the real denier, you don't give a shit about the suffering of muslims in Eastern Anatolia, do you? [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 22:39, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: '''What I present is what is mostly recognized by Academics, what you do present is the Turkish government official version, you can not present that by claiming it is a historical fact. Nowhere in the article before you have edited it, there was any such tones of a theses as being indisputably a fact. Besides, I suggest you to find Assyrians and ask their “stories,” they were deported and killed as well, would you claim they have collaborated with the enemy? Why the Jewish Nili group in its reports feared that the interventions would later not be only limited to Armenians, Assyrians etc., and probably even include the Jews? As for the stories your side can come up with? Not so long ago, a New York Times reporter has been in Eastern Turkey and HAS interviewed Turks and Kurds, and they were saying about how the Armenians were taken and just wiped out... there are even stories of why in a region the soil is red, they believe that the Armenian blood colored it. It is pretty much easy for the Turkish government to search and introduce memories to peoples and then publish what they have to say. My grandpa was orphaned, and I know hardly any Armenians in all the communities, that had no similar stories, you can in no way compare the Armenian losses, while your sides stories are about “this person was dead, we heard this etc.” you will find Armenians saying: “My grandpa, grandma were orphaned, their sisters, brothers killed. Etc.” Besides, the 1914 attack in Muslim villages is even not reported by any memoirs I have read... this is NOT supported nowhere, so claiming something such is just a lie, more so, you even have the audacity to present it as historical fact.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Which academics? Oh, we only listen to the ones supported by the Armenian diaspora, sorry. My mother knows folk songs that talk about Armenian cruelty (no offense), do you expect me to believe that Halacoglu implanted them into her head so that she would remember them as if they were traditional songs that she learned during her youthood, which happens to be 40's? Have you ever heard about muslims being murdered in and exiled from Balkans and Russia throughout 19th century? In todays Turkey, there is a province that hosts a particular ethnic group who were driven to Anatolia in those days (Circassians in Corum, Tatars in Eskisehir, Bosnians in everywhere, Balkanese Turks and Bosnians in Edirne, Kirklareli, Tekirdag). Those people did not happily run here. 2 million of them died. Western history doesn't record these. My final recommendation: WWI should be recorded. War against Russia should be recorded. Armenians mostly living on Eastern Front should be recorded. Armenians living on the west were not relocated, this should be recorded. These are very well-established facts. Russian-Armenian relations, Armenian independence movements (how shameless or illogical can a person be to name these two a claim, but anyway) and attacks on muslim villages should be recorded with the statement of being claimed. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:56, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: So, your mother knows folk song talking about Armenian cruelties? My grandparents were singing such songs when they got their family members killed. You see what I mean? While you will report things as “She knew, he knew” you can pick any Diaspora Armenians, and this “I knew” would be about grandparents being orphaned and, brothers and sisters killed. One person can be killed in a village, and it could be enough to have a story of cruelty, but when the majority are killed, you'll get stories, from the nation that was murdered, of brothers, sisters, mothers, father etc. killed. As Nazim Hikmet the Turkish poet wrote: “Karabet loves you, Because he knows well, That you yourself have not forgiven, Those responsible for the shame brought on the Turkish people.” I don't think this Karabet will love you, because not only do you deny it, but you even try to attempt reverting the role of victims and aggressors. What's so amazing as well, is how you want compassion from my side for those Turks, and Muslim having lost their lives, when you disgustfully revert the role of victims and aggressors of a genocide. While people like you have no problem shouting “millions” of death Muslim, without any attempt to back it up, and consider is as a historical fact, you'll try to minimize the Armenian losses. Of course, had you read works and researched the matter, you will right away see what distinguished the Armenians cases. While the Balkan Muslim, and those in Russia, were kicked out, Armenians were not permitted to leave the Empire, they were sent in camps, and criminals released from prison were sent on them to butcher them. As for your claim that Armenians from the West were not moved, that is a revisionist claim that could even be rejected when using Ottoman or Turkish records. At first only Izmir and Istanbul Armenians were prevented to leave, and those far reaching ones in th West, were left there, when the Ottoman realized that it would lose those lands. In Istanbul, 30,000 Armenians were evacuated to be sent in the slaughter house. In Izmir, a circular order for their evacuation was stopped by the German threatening to intervene military, because those movement of population were seriously interrupting the war efforts. But we know what happened, when the Ottoman got a hand on Izmir at the end. Let see what Hamdullah Suphi has written about the Balkan war in Ikdam, 17 December 1912: “Presently when the other people murdered before our very eyes our fleeing wives and children, the Armenian soldiers who had enrolled in our army fought with a heroism that knows no higher degree. The officials whom the Armenians had put at the disposal of our government were the last ones leaving their posts when the cities that were threatened by the enemy were being evacuated. Their families were the ones which opened their doors to the fleeing citizens with the please. “Don't go away. Don't destroy your hearth. Let us live together until such time when the unhappy days are over.”” |
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::::::::::: Coming to the attacks in Muslim villages, there was NO attack in Muslim villages in 1914, like you wrote, this is a complete fabrication that could even not be supported by the official Turkish foreign affair publication of the archives. You can not present your POV as historical facts. Besides, the Neutral Point of view, require that each events be given as much space as they are represented. Villages attacked in 1917 and later, can in any way not be compared with the destruction of over a million of people, by a centrally planned mass extermination policy. It is like taking the destruction of an entire city, and treating it in an article by giving a space for a quarter... when the rest of the quarters were in much worser shape. This is about the Armenian genocide, and should cover the Armenian genocide. The entry about the Holocaust, is about the Holocaust, and not about the German losses due to the allied bombing or the atomic bombs lunched at the end of World War II. As for your question of which academics... such statments don't even bother answering to. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:42, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Not all science agree, majority doesnt necesarily make right in science either. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I changed the introduction to establish NPOV. The current introduction shows the intention of extermination by the Ottoman government as an established fact, which is in dispute, hence a clear onse-sided POV. Second, it does not even mention the claims about the massacres of muslims by Armenian militia. Well, not an established fact, the other side's POV, but why censor it? I stated the conflict and both sides's views in a neutral way. How vandal I am! |
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:::'''The introduction was clearly NPOV before you touched it.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: Dont cut in other peoples conversation like this. Its difficult to tell what you said and what he said. I just noticed this. |
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:::: Ay ay ay, I am expected to believe that. Not a mentioning of what is disputed, not a mentioning of major claims, and that's NPOV. I did not remove any claim of the Armenian side, just added the claims and position of the other side. And you show allergic reaction to that, because you don't what it to be discussed. You don't want the truth, you want your own claims to be propagated. Wikipedia is not your private website. Go do your propoganda in your own racists sites. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 20.07, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: '''That's untrue, the positions were clearly made, and that point even Coolcat agreed on, besides wanting that most Western Academics believe one position against the other to be removed.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: Nobody is fool Fadix. Be respectful to yourself. Recommendation: Reviewers should read both versions and decide which one is NPOV, with possible modification. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: Both version were represented with NPOV before you have vandalized the article, I have even included a section to represent the Turkish government version, before your other alias has deleted it. Your edits are not NPOV, two versions should be present, but each of them should be presented as NPOV and not POV as you did it. And more, it is POV to misrepresent in an article like you have done. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:45, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:POV is not Vandal. Pro-genocide is not NPOV either. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* I changed the section name from "Armenian Genocide" to "Relocation of Armenians". The title of the article is already "Armenian Genocide", which is definitely POV. The section, on the other hand, is supposed to talk about the events of 1915, which is indeed a relocation, which has caused extensive life loss. It is claimed to be considered as a genocide, but this is an interpretation, not the name of the event that took place. |
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:::'''No, “Armenian relocation” is not NPOV, it actually IS POV, the words Armenian Genocide, are generally accepted, while “Armenian relocation” is recognized by a minority of academics as expression, and even the Turkish government released archives use the term “deportation.” And besides the Armenian genocide is just more than the moving of population.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: "Armenian genocide is" POV. We know that a relocation has happened. That is NPOV. The debate is on whether it was an intended genocide or not. The debate is on whether the main reason was the provocation or not. These are POV. NPOV on a disputed issue is displaying both POVs, not censoring the one that we don't like. Sorry, your point has to be taken as NPOV because you're "western" or "civilized"? [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19.59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: '''The Armenian Genocide is NOT POV, this is how it is called, this is how the person who coined the term genocide has called it, this is how the UN and international such bodies call it. If the event is called the Armenian genocide, it is called such. It is like not agreeing that a Toyota Matrix is not a car. As for POV, there was nothing POV in the original article you have edited, if there is any, you can show it to me, on the other hand, I have clearly shown POV in your editions. This is not whatever or not you like something, this is presenting the different views, by clearly stating who says what, but what you did is to present your POVs and present them as facts... while your POV is supported by very few scholars, and this has nothing to do with Western or non-Western.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: Recommendation: The article is already named Armenian Genocide. The section should be named "The relocation of Armenians and Subsequent Massive Deaths" --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:21, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: No! This is not how it works, only the Turks call it relocation, there is no way to misrepresent an entry, the entry is called the Armenian genocide, and is about the event that is called the Armenian genocide, it is called such by most, and should be called such, you can not present the version of a minority and call the section such. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* The camps section is pure propaganda and POV. It needs to be supported with documents. You can't find a single document about camps in the Ottoman Archive's and no state is that primitive in writing or advanced in espionage to "sponsor" an "extermination plan" without written documents. |
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:::'''Maybe you should read the official Ottoman archives as you'd call them, on the link you yourself has provided. People sent in a place by force, and to be concentrated, is actually a concentration camp, the term at that time was not widely used by people, but the Germans did call it as such, and the genocide maps, and works do call it “concentration camps” including works covering last century concentration camps.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Oh, so let's try hard to make a case that has its own dynamics the same as the holocaust, so mightbe we can also come back and massacre some more turks and kurds in Eastern Anatolia, huh? Let every event be considered in its own dynamics, to be scientific, first of all. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 19.49, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: '''Fact, the claims of Armenians mass killing Turks is only claimed by Turkish nationalist scholars, something that just erupted in the 70s, neither this claim is supported by credible and serious academics, neither does it explain how every places where you claim Armenians have killed Muslim, there is not a single Armenian reported living there now. And neither as well, doesn't explain how, not only Armenians from what was called Ottoman Armenia, just disappeared, but that the Ottoman even destroyed the Alexandriopole Armenian community and other places such as Kars that were part of Russian Armenia, neither does it explain General Halil excursions as far as Baku to destroy the Armenian presence. Wikipedia has no place for national biases, what a minority believe can not be presented as truth, even if a majority was to believe something, no one could present it as truth, now imagine the slight minority view that you have imposed in the article as truth.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: Any relevance of these with the camps? My recommendation: Camps section should be deleted or rewritten with statement of claims based on reliable documentation. --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: What kind of BS is this? Are you denying the existence of the camps? I guess the Armenians were all sent in a spaceship and not camps. Those are based on reliable documents, German documents are reliable. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* The current shape of the article is not scientific. There must be discussion on the background of the events, discussion of the sociology and psychology of the Armenian "millet" at the time, discussion of the political situation in Ottoman Empire (The wars, the crisis, rising movements, islamism, nationalism, pan-turkism, revolutions against the sultan) and motivation of the Ottoman government about the decision of the relocation decision. The current article is a worst-quality edition of the classical Armenian propaganda, contributing to he ignorant and racist Anti-turkism. |
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--[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::'''That's not right, this is about one event, that is called the Armenian genocide, we can try to relativize any entries at Wikipedia and claim the “bigger picture,” this is not how it works. As for racism, there is no worst form of racism, than one that deny a genocide and revert the role of victims and agressors, just because as a person of one ethnic group, he can't accept facts, because of his perverted nationalism. That is racism.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 17:02, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: You don't like big pictures I know, Fadix. You like mentioning Taner Akcam is pro-Armenian, you like mentioning Taner Akcam was imprisoned in Turkey, but you don't like completing the picture by stating that the imprisonment had nothing to do with the Armenian issue. Bigger (I'd rather use complete, but you won't like that word either) pictures don't provide the falsified conclusion you're trying to reach, don't they? Comparing it with the holocaust (which happened in western Europe in a very different context) is the right approach to take, right Fadix? That's how you look at history, that's how you try to understand social dynamics. Just draw a picture of "evil turks" and "poor armenians", and win the game. I indeed think the Armenians are victims, who were murdered and had to leave their country. But you'll never accept that a turk can be victim, because it doesn't fit the "evil turk model" your friends are construction in "info-turk.be". I am also sorry for today's Armenians, who have to construct their national identity on a big tragedy and whose suffering is being explotied by the imperialist states just to strengthen their position against Turkey. Do you really think the imperialists care about the Armenians? Greeks, Turks, Armenians are just toys for them, they don't care about what happened in history. They only care about what is useful for them today. Greeks and Armenians get the candies just because Turkey is more powerful, hence harder to handle. That's what we learned a single thing about the history written by our ("we" here stands for Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, Arabs, even Australians, Indians...) blood. Cooperating with the imperialists does no good for yourself. I am not blaming anybody for being traitors, it is a social fact that you will give your hand to them if you're in need of help. I am not blaming the Armenians because they had a nationalist awakening, because it was the trend at that time. But I blame those who deny this actually happened. I blame those who write history on only western standards and accuse the "others" of being revisionist. This is our history. This is our problem. First thing we have to do is to take their hands of this. But, the Armenian Diaspora plays the imperialists' game, and that does no good for the Armenian national identity. As Hrant Dink says, "Constructing your own identity against the existence of others is sickness. If you need an enemy to preserve your identity, your identity has a disease". No need to mention, he doesn't talk about only one side here. I don't hate Armenians Fadix. I never hated them. Most Armenians hate me, and I understand them. There are people in Turkey who hate Armenians, and I understand them as well. I try to clean the black mark of history in my own society, that's my responsibility. You're the one who provokes Armenians against Turks, you're the one who blames Turkey as a whole society for things that happened in the natural course of history. You're the one who refers to websites that is founded on the basis of hate against Turks. If you try to hide terrorist activities that happened just 30 years, I can't trust you, I am sorry. I can't believe that you won't take the terrorists' side when they come to murder me again. |
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:::::: '''This sort of retarded mentality has no place in a serious discussion, such sarcastic tones like “poor Armenians” and “Evil Turks” can hardly support anything. What you just wrote above has nothing to do with the points I raised, besides, that the Armenian genocide is often compared with the Holocaust has nothing to do with “me.” That the Armenian genocide is agreed by most academics has nothing to do with “me.” All your above regurgitation is worthless in what regards the article. The article should present the positions, and not suggest, I have accepted this, and have worked on it, you can not say “this happened” without presenting it as view, your editions were not that. This is unrelated to your retarded rhetorics that we often hear of a said Armenian Diaspora propaganda about poor poor Turks. I was ready to present the Turkish government version... positions should be presented, but it should be said who believes what, and not “this is that” something you did. The rest I won't bother answering.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Yes, I am sorry, I emphathized with you for a while and made the mistake of discussing things that are irrelevant to how you want the page to be. Don't lie, you are deleting any single pro-relocation claim even though they are stated as claims. The article was much more neutral before you showed up. My recommendation: Both sides' claims should be in and stated as claims. Don't try to fool anybody and state your claims as facts while stating others as claims (I guess that's why coolcat opposed that action, you think you're too smart Fadix, but you're just the counterpart of Halacoglu) --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] [[User talk:Cezveci|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 07:27, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: I seems that it is the other way around, you are lying... before you edited the article both side claims were presented as positions, while you came in and colored the entry with claims that were presented as facts, when there were some that could even not be supported from the other side. I had even added a section to present the Turkish government version. The entry is not about what an ultra nationalist blinded by patriotism think is true, but presenting positions as they are recognized, and right now, the entry is not this anymore. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:01, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: you fail to acknowlege this as a dipute, you fail to welcome oposition either. "Genocide did happen and Turkey must accept this!" is a POV. "Armenians use other nations to promote their Genocide thesis". is another POV. NPOV is not either. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:53, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::We will work on how the article is shaped, you are welcome to stay. Please I ask neither parties to present insults, my personal request to some parties is to refrain from the "Mr." nick, its very irritating. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::I suggest we proceed slowly. The article accoding to both sides is not neutral at the moment. Just tag along and take it slow. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 06:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::POV is clearly stated as NOT being vandalims in [[Wikipedia:Vandalism]]. It is classified as "WHAT IS NOT VANDALISM". |
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::I am not sure if fadix bothered reading every single edit you made. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 11:36, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Working towards consensus == |
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I agree with Tony Sidaway's protecting of this article. I don't know whether it's protected on the "correct" version and it doesn't really matter. The disagreements need to be resolved here on this talk page. What's not helpful are personal attack on this page and in edit summaries. I'd like to see the editors of this article list the points they believe are false or POV. Once the points of contention are identified, we can start moving towards consensus. [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 00:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* <font color=green> Agreed...</font>--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 00:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Tony uses of the article to be locked is not what was asked to be peer reviewed, neither what was asked to be mediated, it was all the edits Coolcat was asking for. Let post you the changes and show you how Tony has abused his powers. |
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“There is an agreement about the occurence of the tragedy. However, there is ongoing debate on two issues, "whether it was a state-sponsored extermination plan, hence genocide" and "whether the tragedy was one sided or the Turks were also massacred by Russian-supported Armenian militia". While Turkey officially denies the occurence of a "genocide", '''the Armenian theses consistently reject acknowledging the causalities on the Turkish side.'''" |
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This is not what the debate is about. This was Coolcat claim, it is POV, and is innacurate in what regards the debate. |
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“Most Armenian, '''many Western''' and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Turkish and '''many Western''' scholars, on the other hand, claim that a clash between the two sides, along with famine and disease, was the reason why a number of Armenians perished. Death toll claims range from 200,000 to 1.8 million, and while there is no official international consensus regarding exactly how many Armenians died, most Western sources maintain that at least one million deaths took place. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second most studied case of what is called genocide and often draws comparison with the [[Holocaust]].” |
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This was what Coolcat wanted the changes to be made, and I have proposed him by presenting a link to an on line library. It is not a “many” Western vs “many” Western. This is just innacurate, most Western academia, against some Western Academia, I have told Coolcat to verify that on the list of an on line library, and have offered even more supports. He then claimed that it is not because from one side there are more works published that it means it is more supported. And anyone in scientific fields know that something should actually be published and be peer reviewed to BE considered. |
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The Armenian genocide has been changed for “'''Relocation of Armenians'''.” I guess for you Tony, this is more neutral right? |
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Or another change. |
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“'''Following Ottoman Empire's entry in WWI, the Imperial Russia has invaded Eastern Anatolia, where the Armenian and muslim communities were interleaved. Taking advantage of common religion and recent discomfort of the Armenian community in Ottoman Empire, Russia was promoting Armenian nationalism and there were many Russian-Armenians in the Russian army. Late in 1914, Russian supported and tranied Armenian militia started treachery and attacking on muslim villages.'''” |
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Or what about this change, is that neutral as well? |
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“There are a number of Turkish scholars who support the theses of genocide, including [[Taner Akçam]] and [[Halil Berktay]]. Despite being protested strongly by some Turkish nationalists, '''these scholars freely express and publish their opinions in Turkey. However, the Armenian propagandists falsely claim that confirming the so-called genocide is a crime subject to imprisonment in Turkey.''' [[Orhan Pamuk]], a famous Turkish novelist, has also recently told the press that he believes that a million Armenians were killed in Turkey.” |
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And last, not the least, Torque website has been added back, when I have demonstrated that the site contain non existing quotes that were fabricated, as well as a Turkish government website, with documents that are already present in the other websites. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: I don't endorse any version of the article. Now in my earlier comment (in another section) I responded to Fadix identifying two disputed statements by editing the article to comment out those claims (they're still in the source but not visible in the article). |
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: Now Fadix identifies more: |
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:# Armenian genocide section changed to "Armenian relocation"--a disputed/inaccurate characterization. |
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:# Claims about Russian promotion of Armenian nationalism are disputed/inaccurate. |
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:# Characterization of Armenian claims about alleged Turkish suppression of the Genocide thesis is disputed/inaccurate. |
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:# A website cited has disputed/inaccurate figures. |
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: Is that it? --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 01:25, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Tony, do you realise that this is about all of the edits made? You remove them and you've got about the article I had, while you have reverted my revertion, you will just come back nearly to what I have been posting, and that article I had was the result of neutralizing that even Coolcat has participated in. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: I cooperated by removing two disputed statements in the introduction. Now I want to see you and Coolcat, and others, doing what [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] suggested: |
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:: ''I think that the next step is for the editors of this article to list the points they believe are false or POV. The personal attacks and snide edit summaries should also cease.'' |
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: Then I want you to discuss these matters courteously and without recriminations, and decide between yourselves what the most agreeable wording is. You both have strong opinions that represent opposing viewpoints, but there's nothing wrong with that. Given goodwill you can come up with a truthful version of the article that represents the facts in a way that neither of you objects to. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 01:36, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Tony, some things are about opposing views, and some are not. Wikipedia neutral point of view requires some important things which Coolcat refuse to accept. As much space should be left as the ratio in the Academic world between those supporting one theses, and the other. |
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The entry is called Armenian genocide, and the name in the article has been reverted to “Armenian relocation” are you really expecting us to discuss about that? It is called the Armenian genocide, and the absurdity of the other sides position, is that even if we take the other sides theses, it still qualify as genocide under the UN convention. |
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Point 2, is what the other side claim, it isn't only POV, but it is the Turkish government POV, while it is mixed with the bunch, without indicating who believes what... something Coolcat was against with from the beginning. I will object on that, and i do believe that it is against NPOV, to mix everything as equal, without indicating who believes what. I have included a “Turkish government” section, but Coolcat deleted it, in fact, Coolcat even deleted the fact that in April 24, Armenian intellectuals were jailed and killed, something that even the other side recognize. Do you really think in those circumstances that it is possible to discuss with someone, that does not only want POV to be introduced, but his OWN POV? |
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Point 3, The Turkish human right organization report abuses each months, another Turkish human right organization “Info-Turk” even publish each months, and its articles can be accessed on line. The “Armenian claims” and the claim of freedom is simply untrue, when considering the countless numbers of people having been jailed. |
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Point 4, two websites added, one of those relevant articles are contained in another website already included, the other site, which is claimed to be by Turkish and Western scholars is Torques website, and I have shown clearly fabrications, quotes supposedly coming from works, when the quotes were not in the pages and the works mentioned, other times, a work that do not exist, a fabricated quote etc... copypasted from the newsgroups, and when the originator was a legendary spammer of the 90s. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:52, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Coolcat, without attacking Fadix, what's your response to this? --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 02:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:We have to clarify one thing. Relevancy, you should not, none of you, in anyway try to degrade my or anyones credibility based on what they did on a linked article. What I did elsewhere is irrelevant while we are discussing. |
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:#Carectising it as Genocide will mean the article acknowleges that as a fact. Characterising it as Relocation apperantly acknowleges the deniel. My intention was not that, I just wanted to use a word that was more neutral. I suggests using both words, ie Armenian Genocide/Relocation on the sole fact that there are claims disputing the classification of the event as Genocide, it would be futile to claim that anyone suggesting it wasnt a genocide as "a bunch of biased and misguided people" dont take this as an attack but all I am saying is views of the other party classifiying the thing should be pointed out. |
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:::::'''Characterizing as genocide only confirm the title of the article. Read the UN convention, and even revisionists like McCarthy admit that using the UN convention for genocides, it would still be classified as genocide when one uses your theses. Relocation suggest a success of resettlement, since most that were “relocated” perished, there is no way to call it “relocation.” Furthermore, using such term as relocation mislead the reader into believing that only that happened. While the Armenian genocide is a very vast subject. Another thing you fail to understand, wherever or not one event could be classified as genocide is not your job, but rather international bodies like the UN. This is why for instance Gilbert in his work of World War I, report the qualification among scholars, while he report how the Armenian community was destroyed. An academic try to show or not the intend of the Ittihadist party who dissolved the government to enter in the war. That is what the subject is all about... if the UN classify an event as genocide, end of the story, those in charge of qualifications have already qualified the event, and not you or anyone can change that fact. It is called genocide, and any symposiums and conferences about genocide in history refer to the Armenian cases.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::Aperantly you are convinced its a solid fact and views fo the other party in this discussion is unimportant. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#If russian involvement is documented, that may be presented. |
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:::::'''No, that the Armenians soon in the war engaged in massacring Muslim by joining the Russians, is not documented, this is just a big lie, and even the official Turkish foreign ministry affair archives publication don't show such, neither Germany or Austria report something like that. You not only have used what has been build by Refik Department II bureau to justify the decision, but you have entirely ignored that Refik himself wrote a booklet admitting that those were lies build to justify the decision against the Armenians. Djemal himself was even not aware of anything such. You can not just post lies like that, that are not only POV, but that they are even not documented from the revisionist sides, and that the only collection of files used were admitted to be fabrication by one of the leading figures that participated in their fabrication.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::You want to assumue armenians were a hundered percent innocent, thats rather fanatic. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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<br> I did not object the "intellectuals were jailed and killed" material, I commented out for review, instead of rewriting you reverted it. That was a mistake. I commented out lots of sections that was worded improperly. You dont say "Armenians were murdered" you say "Armenians are killed" this is how we say things on wikipedia. You cannot declare anything that suggests Armenian genocide as "propoganda". It must have a basis. It would not be right for either party of the story, PRO-ANTI genocide, to assume pure innocence, however neither nation should be insulted. An example: "Tratious Armenians" is definately unacceptable. Instead you can say "Armenian Rebelion" or something even more neutral. |
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:::::'''There is a clear distinction between killed and murdered, you are again playing the same game you've played with the “concentration camps.” While this is how it is called by the very large majority of people, you just want the words used by a minority, this is not how we do it here at Wikipedia, and as a veteran you should know it. When the special organization was sent to escort the Armenians, they were committing murder and NOT killing, when the Ittihadist was sending them, they were sending them to murder Armenians.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::You want to assumue armenians were a hundered percent innocent, thats rather fanatic. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#That is politics, article cannot be based around politics. It can be mentioned in the aproporate tone. Preferably at the VERY END of the article where POVs, Interpretations should be placed. |
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:::::'''You are the one that want to include political views, you want the Turkish government version to be presented as equally truth as what is said by the Academic world, this is not how we do it in Wikipedia.'''[[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::Aperantly you are trying to ignore this as a disputed matter for you your views are solid facts you will not back down untill others give up. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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<br> Turkish Human Rights Organisation is not an institiution that in anyway is related to the "Armeinan Genocide". Turkey has their own internal problems and this article is not related to turkeys internal problems today. You cannot and should not try to create an aurora of "Evil Turks". Same could be said for the United States, if I recall the a "Black" been beaten to death by "White" cops. This does not mean the goverment supports the incident. As far as I know such "Abuses" is declared illegal in Turkey. Lots of people get jailed in every country, your point? I do not care what "organisation A" claims, I care about what their claims are based on, which evidence? |
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:::::'''That the Turkish human right organization recognize the Armenian genocide, is related with the Armenian genocide, that many from whom were jailed for this recognition IS related with the Armenian genocide. That now under the Turkish penal code, someone recognizing the genocide could be sued and jailed for over 10 years, IS related with the Armenian genocide, and your other alias just hijacked that part.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::I dont see how this supports hisoric material. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#External websites should be reexamined, you cant declare it "POV, bad". Thats what we can do after we are done with the rest of the article. Propoganda links from either side is unacceptable no matter which version they support. |
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:::::'''No way, that is stupid, the reason why I have deleted that website had nothing to do with POV, obviously each side might present POV, I deleted that website because it had quotes that were build in the newsgroups by Multu and his aliases, the website was assassinating academics characters, and was in the limit of legality, the website has racist characterizations, such as an email by racist professor Ozan, that was claiming Armenians to be the lowest form of life. That website is Torques website, and I have shown how he has used non-existing materials. This is beyond POV, if I claim that on page 22 of a book, this quote exist, but after checking, the quote in fact did not exist, neither on that page, or anywhere in the book, my claim is not only not credible, but it is a fraud. The other site from the Turkish government, all the relevant stuff there are present on the other sites, so it is just quoting another site with the same materials.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::So anybody who does not share your views are racist? You are not willing to discuss. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#A considerable amount of people worldwide think The "Genocide" was a bad consecuence of a good intention. MOST people dont care. They have other things they are investigating, there is more in history than [[Armenian Genocide]], most scientists do not investigate the armenian genocide. There isnt a concensius involving Turkey either, you may call that "denial" or "pov" (not in the article), which is fine, but you cannot declare anything said that supports against genocide as propoganda. |
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:::::'''You were the one yapping “Armenian propaganda,” what I report and have against, is not propaganda, propaganda does not necessarily mean that something is a lie. But you can not edit the article and introduce personal POV, like you have done, you can not present things that are even not POV, but beyond, because they could even not be supported when using your sides own materials. Wikiepdia is not the place for that... you can ask me to support any points there was in the previous article, before Tony committed a major mistake, and I will load references from Turkish, German and Austrian sources. And mind you here that Germany and Austria were Ottoman allies.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::So you are saying that there is 0 propoganda and now are lecturing me what is wikipedia material and what isnt, your views are fanatical, I want to discuss things that appear to be unacceptable. You cant sacrifice hence talking wth you is pointless. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#I am not here to proove/disproove the genocide. All I want is article contain less POV more factual evidence. I want to recheck the validity on each and every statement in the article. There is lots of Propoganda from Either side, Armenian propoganda is more wide spread as Turkish propoganda is confined to the country. On 24th april on campus we have the Armenian Genocide day posted on every wall window, toilet door, everywhere. While I never seen anything remotely regarding the Turkish claim. I attend such things. Attendance was... not much, we had about 20 people in a 100+ lecture hall. People talked pro genocide of course. I listened and left quietly. I even had taken notes. |
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:::::'''Besides, the Armenian side might be more active in such spheres, but it has no weight, in where it matters, the Turkish government found and fund university departments, directly pay scholars(see chronicle of higher education, and a publication in the Holocaust and Genocide studies etc.)... the Turkish government directly pressurize countries to not recognize the genocide. E.g, the US was to recognize it, Turkey pressurized it with repercussions, such as closing the US bases in Turkey etc. Obviously your side has more weight here.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::Well, I do not know who has more weight, if that was the case noone in eu would have regognised genocide. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:#I am willing to forget past hostilities and start from scratch, I propose my color scheme to talk. You are welcome to use it. If you do so will I. Information avalible at: [[User:Coolcat/mediat]] |
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--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 04:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::'''I am not interested in your color scheme, neither interested in your mediation, you can not mediate this place, when your intention is to dissolve the article.''' [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::Yes, you are not willing to doscuss and cant agree on anything that disagrees with you. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I expected you to answer my above answer, but you had nothing to say, but I expected that. |
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*Questioning the innocence of a group or an ethnic group is racistic in nature, anothger comment made by nationalist Turks. But of course, I hope you are not denying anymore being a nationalist Turk. Are you? |
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*Do you actually believe that by just writing things that have nothing to do with what I wrote, people will believe you've actually brought an argument? |
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*This is not about supporting or not, but rather presenting who believes what, and this is important. |
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*OK then, you wanted it, you will get it, just let post professor Ozan message regarding the Armenians: "You Armenians claim that you are the direct descendents of Prophet Noah. What a self-serving braggadocio! According to your 'fable' you were saved from the deluge by prophet Noah taking you the Armenians into his wooden barge. It is reported in the Bible that he took two of every kind of creature, at the height of those terrible floods, those who would otherwise be destined to drown. He must have taken at least two of your kind into his ship also." |
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"But let us not forget that he also took in among other creatures, Hyenas, snakes, leeches and scorpions too. I got a hunch that he was not very happy that he had given the Armenians a ride. He is heard afterwards saying the following: "What a mistake have I committed? What a wonderful place this GOD's earth could have been If I had not taken them in with us to be transported to dry lands." |
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"Those are pretty sad words, Mr. Gasparian, but not mine. Mine would be: "Let even the Armenians live among us. There is still hope that they may be transformed eventually into some acceptable creatures. There is still hope for them even, because look at history! It is replete with primitive mortals who were the most uncivilized, the most cruel, the most boodthirsty people of their times: the "Vikings." Since we can count all Scandinavians, the descendents of the Vikings nowadays amongst the most civilized, most humane, most peaceful members of wordly society of human beings, who knows, Mr. Gasparian, your kind also, one day, will see the light and emulate the Vikings. At least that is my fervent wish for you and for your people."" But you know what? I think I'll leave it to that, unless you want me to post the juicy comments in the site regarding the Armenians? Or the examples of non-existing works and character assassinations against academics? The site is on the limit of legality, if any of those slandered on Torques site were to know his name, Torque would find himself with serious lawsuits. |
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*Actually, it is the other way around, talking with you is pointless, you want the article to contain your POV, you can just not do that. And yes! I am lecturing you on what are Wikipedia materials and what are not, because you still fail to understand. |
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*Actually, the fact that they do recognize the genocide after all the pressure, is an evidences on how the facts are just too strong. |
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*You are lying here, don;t forget that I have added a section to present the Turkish government version, you preferred deleting it, because you want all the article to be the Turkish government version. I was ready to make many compromises, you have from the beginning made none. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:26, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I am a newbie so please go easy if I make any mistakes. I just want to say I disagree with CoolCats point two. In reference to wording with killing or murdered. The words kill or murder do not have the same meaning. Killin someone does not suggest intent (while it might be there). For example "John killed Tim in a car accident". Murder suggest by definition intent to kill. So murder does not happen by accident. This is why it is a harsher word. Not neccessarily because of the words connoctations but rather because it has a different meaning. It is saying something different. I believe if in fact the usage of murder is factual it should be used as it is a a more descriptive word. It is more desriptive, in the same way as rape is more descriptive than sex. It is basically telling the reader more, the simple act of using the word in a factual situation is not a POV. Also a thing to note is that other articles indeed do use the word murder. Perhaps you should either point out their mistakes or accept the usage of the word murder is ok. |
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[[User:Meok|Meok]] 06:26, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Yes. But the nature of this article requires "politicaly correct terms". It is best to write contraversial articles this way. There is a wing disputing it and there is a wing that want the world to accept it. Kill works for both groups as you can kill by intending it, while it can also be accidental. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 09:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I disagree so do many other articles. To demonstrate that here is a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Murder link] that shows all the pages that link to the [[murder]] article. This shows it is acceptable for use. It shows that it is "politically correct". And as long as it is correct (factually) it should be used. I assume that if you maintain the postion that murder is not "politically correct" you will complain about its use in other articles which also use the term. |
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[[User:Meok|Meok]] 10:45, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Two thins |
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:#There are more important things to discuss in this artcile. |
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:#Murder will acknowlege genocide, hence in aproporate, unless the material as archived supports it murder cant be used. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 11:33, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I recomend we start Working towards consensus rtaher than petty argument of words. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 11:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:What I've been saying is your 2nd point, Coolcat, that if factually correct ie there is material that supports it, the word murder should be used. If it isn't factual, if there isn't evidence then obviously the word murder shouldn't be use. "Political correctness" shouldn't come into it, due to reasons stated before. Correct? One step at a time. [[User:Meok|Meok]] 12:03, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: I agree that faddish concepts like "political correctness" have no place in an encyclopedia. Mass murder is the correct term to use here if people were forced out of their homes and carried away in a way that could predictably cause them to die in great numbers. There may be some people who legitimately cast doubt on the question of whether it was planned, but the effect was clear and must have been clear both before and during the genocide. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 16:40, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::You fail to see that the "mass murder" part is been disputed... --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Mass murder?== |
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Can we all agree on these facts? |
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# The Armenians were removed from their homes by force. |
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# The Ottomans did not provide anything like adequate facilities to care for these people during transportation or when they arrived. |
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# Hundreds of thousands of people died as a consequence. |
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# This consequence was forseeable prior to, and during, the transportation. |
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--[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 17:02, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Can we all agree on '''THESE''' facts? |
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# The Armenians were removed from their homes by force. |
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# The Ottomans did not provide ''any'' facilities to care for these people during transportation or when they arrived. Rather, the Ottoman troops "escorting" the Armenians as a matter of course both allowed others to rob, kill, rape the Armenians, even preventing those who could have otherwise purchased their own food, and often participated in this activity themselves. |
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# Hundreds of thousands of people, possibly surpassing a million died as a consequence. |
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# This consequence was forseeable prior to, and during, the transportation. |
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--[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:07, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== nothing new under the sun == |
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Unfortunately, the [[Holocaust denial|denial of Holocaust]] by nationalists is nothing new under the sun. The Germans did it before 1945 and neo-nazi's still do it. The Japanese deny they the fact that they put my grandfather in a concentration camp in Birma, the Turkish government jails writers who describe the Armenian holocaust. In my view, "historical revisionism" is '''incompatible''' with the philosophy of Wikipedia! |
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:: Thanks to the anti-elitist and anti-academic policy here, of course... wait and see when physic entries will be edited by co-religionists. It is disgusting how national biases are considered as equal as decades of Academic research by thousands of specialists. I am losing trust on Wikipedia entire project. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:48, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: I do not understand what is so difficult about "proove your facts". What kind of a scientist investigating this genocide are you if you do not have the archive numbers of the documents you are dealing with? I want verifyable facts in the document. That is clearly my standing, any interpretation should be done 50:50 of such documents but sellections be presented raw. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 20:00, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Of course you HAVE NO PROBLEM with the edit, when the edit makes statments that are not neutral in their tones, less than any of my edits were. As for "proving," all my edits were justified with references in the talk page and such... with references to the Martial Court etc. The footnotes that I was going to provide were things that I have already discussed about, and the origin of the statments were clearly writen in MY VERSION, and you had a problem with it, while you don't seem to have any problem with the balatant lies in the actual article, when some of them can even not be supported from the other side. You see how no one should trust you? You lie about you, you lie about everything, and then you play the innocent being attacked, and when people go against you, you dump them all toegether and you claim they are clones. As for the 50:50, forget about it, you will never obtain it. I mad MANY concession, MANY, I EVEN ADDED A SECTION FOR THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT VERSION, BUT YOU DELETED IT, BECAUSE YOU WANTED THE ENTIRE ARTICLE TO BE THAT VERSION. Ad Adam said for the other entry you were hijacking, go get another entry, and stop it. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:11, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==twoversions template== |
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At the suggestion of another administrator, I have switched the protection template to "twoversions", which includes links to the other version and also the difference between the two. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 16:58, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:: As I see, you are even not admitting your OBVIOUS mistake. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:46, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::You are using too many lead :'s and you are over reacting, not being polite either. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 20:00, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==picture== |
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Here is a picture for the right version: |
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[[Image:Turkish-genocide-killed-more-than-one-and-a-half-million-Armenians.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Armenians killed during the Armenian genocide]] |
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:: That picture is nothing compared to others. I had planned to add pictures myself, but nationalist revisionists like Coolcat have interupted any advance in the articles progression. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 19:49, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Yes thats a dead person. Thank you, thats all it is. Also stop it with your personal attacks. Declare me things more such as "nationalist revisionists". That is like declaring me as a Nazi and is not permitted on wikipedia. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 19:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: That picture shows people died. That pictire does not show the guy, and probably more in the bg been murdered by Turkish troops. Your facts are not the only facts. This article will not be your version only. I cannot tell if that person is Armenian or African, personaly. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 19:55, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Oh no, he's not a Turk... ignorant, most pictures of Armenian victims were taken by Germans, OTTOMAN ALLIES, there are pictures of hundreds of bodies, bones, in each of them. There are of calcified soil, if you know how much bone it takes for the calcification of the soil, do the math. Oh yeh!!! I guess, the Germans were just presenting fake pictures of Armenian victims to slander their OWN. ALLIES!!! [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:21, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Look, I am not claiming they are fake. I can understand how important it is for you to present this article a fact. However, this does not give you the right to acuse me of things, declare me of things. Naming the file as "Turkish-genocide-killed-more-than-one-and-a-half-million-Armenians" is just not fair. You wont push your views in this article the way you are doing. For every fact I need evidence. Lets start what we have in common as far as material is concerned. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:21, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: I understand how it is important for you to wage a war in every articles involving Turkey. However, this does not give you the right to accuse me of things, declare me things. Where the file was named what you claim? The original article was just presenting what parties were saying, and there even was a section for the Turkish government view, but this did not satisfy you at all, since you deleted it, you wanted all the article to represent your views. You claim wanting evidences, but when I present them, you claim that this site is not there to “prove” anything but presenting views, when I do that, you claim wanting “proves.” The article was to present who says what, you always objected to that, while it had everything to do with what a NPOV article was about. Oh another thing, the only persons telling that pictures can not be used to identify people as being Armenians, are Turks. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:31, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Coolcat, this has nothing to do with what I say as being facts, the article was supposed to present positions, each sides positions and their critics, as simple as that, you refused... I then, tried to work on your request, you again refused... you want the article to present innacurate informations and present them as facts... such as deleting that most recognize the genocide etc. and present two positions as equaly valid. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 13:59, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::You refused discussing, prooving evidence, It was a suggestion just like 10's you did not like. Present me a way to do this article that will get us a neutral article. How should we do it? |
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== Fresh Start #3 == |
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Ok, <b>lets take this slow</b>. You are welcome to use [[User:Coolcat/mediat|my color scheme]], if you do so will I. |
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*I suggest we establish what both pro-anti genocide spheres accept. Also what point of the issue is disputed by either party. |
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*I suggest no personal attacks no one should be discussing how horrible a person is. We had over a meg worth of this. Enough. |
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--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Run #1 == |
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* Hundereds of thousands, possibly over a million Armenians died. Any opposition? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:No. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:: So Armenians did not die? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::You asked "Any opposition?". I answered "No." Clear now? --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* Mass number of Armenians were requested to move, reasons are open to debate. Any opposition? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Of course. Nobody was "requested" to move. They were either murdered outright or TOLD they were moving. Everything is open to debate, but they are quite clear to everyone familiar with the subject. As has been said before, the consequense of the deportation would obviously be death, and those ordering it would have to have intended that. Have you read "Survivors" by the Millers? You really should. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:49, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::You should realy read the NPOV article. We can work on the wording. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::First, sorry for suggesting you possibly read a primary source, but I strongly believe you should read that book. Second, I assume you mean the current article when you say "the NPOV article" - even though you must know I do not find it NPOV. In which case - yes I have read it. Do you want me to suggest an alternative text/wording for the article? I don't understand. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* This consequence was forseeable prior to, and during, the transportation. |
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:Not sure, sounds plausable, wording should be important. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Again - are you asking for my suggested wording?--[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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* The Ottomans did not provide any facilities to care for these people during transportation or when they arrived. Rather, the Ottoman troops "escorting" the Armenians as a matter of course both allowed others to rob, kill, rape the Armenians, even preventing those who could have otherwise purchased their own food, and often participated in this activity themselves. |
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:Not sure, sounds plausable, wording should be important. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Ditto - so based on that assumption, I have edited the genocide article on very basic fact. I am sure you'll find it POV, but I strongly believe it is not. That it is the most basic account of what happened, and every point can be backed up easily and substantially. I worked on those sections which seem to have been the source of disagreement and added some too. Please look at the [[Armenian Genocide - Working Version]] to see what you think of it. Let me know your thoughts. If you find it way off, tell me why. If your issues are relatively minor, please list them point by point. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:29, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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---- |
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Cool Cat, please drop the color scheme - clearly nobody is interested despite your having brought it up numerous times. I suggest that if you are so keen on "discovering" the facts, which are already well known, you do some serious reading. But short of that (which you do not appear terribly interested in - rather you want to make sure this is not clearly described as a genocide), let us go ahead, and hash out the facts for the gazillionth time, because lord knows, every time someone new hears that there was a genocide and isn't sure whether to believe it, we should all drop everything we are doing and defend the facts from scratch. Sorry about the sarcasm, but this has got to be at least the 20th time I am doing this online. That is why I created the website - so you can go and read materials online, judging the sources yourself, and come to you conclusion. Oh well, I guess that was a waste as well... so back to the basics. |
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As I asked above, can you agree to '''THESE''' facts? |
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# The Armenians were removed from their homes by force. |
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# The Ottomans did not provide any facilities to care for these people during transportation or when they arrived. Rather, the Ottoman troops "escorting" the Armenians as a matter of course both allowed others to rob, kill, rape the Armenians, even preventing those who could have otherwise purchased their own food, and often participated in this activity themselves. |
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# Hundreds of thousands of people, possibly surpassing a million died as a consequence. |
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# This consequence was forseeable prior to, and during, the transportation. |
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:: discussed above. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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If not, please answer very convincingly why you could still have major doubts about any of these. In fact, if you disagree, then please provide some evidence that they are ''not'' true. |
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--[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:32, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::PLease discuss above. Establishing the comon ground is first step in resolving conflicts. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:34, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== New related entry == |
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[[Ottoman_Armenian_Population]] More would be added in it, after I complete the entry regarding the Armenian losses. As one can see, every points are supported by footnotes and references, and even Turkish ones. -Unsigned, likely fadix |
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::: Even Torque has not gone as far as getting involved in everything that could relate to Turkey. You have even pl;aced in Musa Dagh book talk page, the banner of controversial, when it is about a damn book. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 23:55, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Coolcat, what will you answer?== |
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Who beside the Turks call the genocide theses as "Armenian propaganda." Don't escape it, answer me please. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 23:52, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I do not know, I do know Armenians added facts that arent facts but merely propoganda material. While I am not suggesting everything you provide me as pure BS created by propoganda, I require archive material to make sure the material is factual. Often the documents dont say much. Then youll have to interprete the meaning. For all cases both sides views should be presented unbisased. I believe Turks argue with the clarification of the issue not the facts beind it. The motives are questionable as far as both parties are concerned. Pro-Anti genocdie parties agree with a good portion of the materal. |
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:We will have our disagreements I am sure. We can work on those one at a time. Lets asses what both parties strongly agree on. |
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:Please do not simply dismiss what people say just because they may not support the genocide. This is how wikipedia works, like it or not. |
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:Its easy to add material that is not in conflict between us. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:23, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Coolcat, you have called the genocide theses as "Armenian propaganda." Again, answer me, who besides Turks call it that? As for the materials, I have posted bunch of documents and materials in the Fadix analysis... you claimed it was not about proving but presenting views, when I do that, you get them deleted to merge them and to get the entire article to represent the Turkish government point of view... and then you require proof, when I do that, you claim it is not about proving but to represent positions, when I do that, again you backtrack and ask for proves... this is the kind of contradictory sort of things I have to answer. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 15:02, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::If it is only your view that it is Armenian Propaganda then perhaps it shouldn't be stated in the article. Simply you saying you know it is isn't enough. [[User:Meok|Meok]] 06:38, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: What the hell are you tlking about? I always had this tone, ... I repeat Coolcat, your answer does not satisfy me. Who besides Turks call the genocide theses as ": Armenian propaganda?" [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 13:55, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::Nevermind, I though you finaly had a civilised tone. I was mistaken. Drop the caveman talk and be civil and polite, please. On 03:23, 4 Apr 2005 I answered the question "Who besides Turks call the genocide theses as Armenian propaganda?". I do not care if it satisfies you or not. I stated armenians have significant propoganda involved in their case. The armenian Genocide is promoted on universities worldwide, while no Turkish views are mentioned. There is room for propoganda there. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::: Coolcat, you did not answer my question. Who besides Turks claim the genocide theses to be "Armenian propaganda." A simple question that need a simple answer. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::: I gave you a smple answer. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 00:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Your answer was "I do not know, I do know Armenians added facts that arent facts but merely propoganda material.". In other words you sidestepped the answer. [[User:Meok|Meok]] 01:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::::: You mean not one "fact" regarding Armenian Genocide was a product of Armenian propoganda? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: Never claimed that rather I said you did not answer the question past saying that your opinion of what is propaganda is simply just your opinion. |
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==Do not...== |
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*...cut IN my discussion unless you have to, copy my sic to every seperation of my discussion. Embeded messages are not welcome.--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*...refrain from bold tag. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*...do not insult me, dont declare anyone not credible because they are <i>nationalist/reservionist/a troll/satanist/anything else</i> --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*...do not claim POV is Vandal. It is not. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*...do not discuss me, discuss the article. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:09, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: Here comes again Coolcat arrogant tone, believing he owns this site. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:11, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Insulting me, pointing out how horible I am declaring POV as Vandal is how we run wikipedia. We allow users <span title="The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief">credibility</span> to be destroyed by personal insults. Cutting in embaded msgs are always welcome that way people will not know who said what. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:22, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::That is arrogance, is it not?--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:20, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Coolcat, why are you throwing words where they do not fit? You remind me a new alias in that regard. Peoples credibility are only destroyed based on what they say. You are a vandal and a troll, that Tony agree or not, this is what you are. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:34, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== I have reviewed the two articles and the talk of this last weekend - and I repeat - there is no hope in this approach == |
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Unless it is one's intention to promote advocacy of largely unsupported revisionism and muddy the truth. Frankly I don't much like either article. I have not much hope at all that there will ever be anything decent here as we can see from the charges and countercharges - there is really no "middle ground" on most of this and any "middle ground" is likely not the truth besides. |
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Obviously if we are stuck on use of the term "Genocide" - questioning if it is historically accurate/inaccurate - then yes - we have problems. It is only politically controversial - it is otherwise completely accepted. Why is the Armenian Genocide given recognition for/as such at Genocide conferences and when (cross disciplinary) Genocide scholars discuss genocide denial if it is not considered as genocide? And for Coolcat to state "why should we care what scholars think - because they are biased" etc - well - I thought it was Turkey's position to leave the issue to the historians. Well I think the historians have spoken. If we are to take a political position as equivalent to the historical position - well it makes me wonder how other articles in Wikipedia might look with this approach. |
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And again - what Coolcat is advocating is essentially to let the Holocaust denier have an equal voice to that of legitimate scholars, historians and in the face of accepted truth. I have scanned (read in its entirely actually) the talk pages since I last posted - and what I see is clear advocacy. Coolcat is not objective and this "approach" is a ruse. For one - to refuse to use the term "murder" when this is clearly what has occurred. Again - I find Coolcat's statement - repeated several times – |
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: "You want to assume Armenians were a hundred percent innocent, thats rather fanatic. --Cool Cat My Talk 22:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)" |
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highly offensive. To suggest that the hundreds of thousands - and yes perhaps/likely million plus innocent human beings - who were brutally |
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==murdered== |
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that somehow they were not innocent - that they deserved it....and to accuse one of fanaticism for believing that these innocents were such - well I am offended (he clearly either is completely ignorant or is just hateful, callous and mean) - and I think Armenians are deserving of an apology. If I were to go over to the Holocaust page now - and state that anyone who believes that the Jews were innocent (with the implication that they were deserving of their slaughter) and I think I might do this - and put a link to this discussion page - just what do you think the reaction might be? |
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Fadix has issued a challenge to all who advocate that Armenians were somehow equal perpetrators against innocent Turks - to prove such - to prove massacres of Turks in 1914 or 1915 on any kind of scale. I even believe that there were isolated instances of such - as there have been sporadic massacres of Armenians by Turks and particularly Kurds, Circassians (Cherkes) and others over the proceeding 50-100 years - and clearly quite disproportionately so. So some misguided Armenian “gangs” did taken retribution upon innocent Turkish citizens – yes – it is clear that this did happen in some places – and my heart grieves for those whose families suffered this senseless violence – but likewise Armenians have regularly been slaughtered by Kurdish bandit chiefs and such - even so - does this justify the terrible crimes that were committed against the Armenian population – such to wipe it out completely? Why were no such steps taken to curb the Kurdish violence against the Armenians if the Ottomans had such a sense of peace and justice? |
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No – this was different. The Armenians were deliberately killed – and for a number of reasons (and we should examine the wartime conditions and the swing of revolutionary zeal and societal stress – these are all factors certainly to what occurred) – but do not deny what did happen! The article must focus on the plight of the Armenians who were slaughtered if the relevancy of such events is to be portrayed in its rightful truthful manner. This is the overwhelming truth – the reason for this issue – the why we care – and it is as factual and true – unfortunately so – as any known historical event that has occurred on the planet – so we must deal with this – and not hide our heads in the sand and cry that such a thing never occurred. First and foremost this must be acknowledged! |
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I am not opposed at all for discussing the circumstances and the whys and such – and in fact I have developed a rather comprehensive outline if the approach we finally settle on is one of a complete presentation in all contexts (but I warn this may need to go far beyond just some encyclopedia article to do it justice). However I must emphasize that it is entirely clear that no real body of evidence supports the jist of official Turkish Thesis (and much of what is offered was poor untrue and massively exaggerated propaganda from the time designed to incite violence against Armenians)– and we cannot give credence to unsupported claims that Armenians of this period did such violence against Turks on any truly noticeable or widespread scale (an argument might be able to be made that the Young Turks – knowing how easily they got into power and also seeing the success the other minorities had at breaking away – overreacted – pure and simple…still what was done was done…) – However it is clear that the Ottoman Turks – led by the (by then) xenophobic Young Turk party – planned and committed a deliberate policy of a state slaughter of one of its minority peoples (and actually more then one – as Assyrians and Greeks were killed too) – they employed the state apparatus for massive repression and brutality and they carried it out to its most inhumane and terrible ends. |
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There can be no rational claim that in any way were Armenians responsible for the kind of mass crimes against humanity as what the Ottoman Armenians experienced at the hand of the Turks – you have no case to present such – it is entirely untrue and it is a travesty of justice blame the victims and to suggest such and it is an affront to all of the innocent victims who were slaughtered and brutalized – lives forever ended – forever altered – survive or persih. To suggest such and then to claim to be an impartial moderator is just an out an out travesty and you sir have really gone too far here! --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 20:49, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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===Response=== |
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:Please try not to embed other users messages like that. Your views regard genocide as deliberate killing, ie murder. There is another view like it or not sugests that it wasnt intentional. Wikipedia Neutral Point of View article dictates that article be written in accordince to both views. If you do not want a 50:50 aproach, I need documentation and hard evidence for you to support your case, otherwise this is nothing more than a dispute, I need to have some offical goverment "deliberately kill" order, otherwise it can and will be disputed. I am sorry but I insist that you should keep your Point of View regarding the matter off of the topic like I am. You never saw me acusing Armenians of anything in the article, but judging from some web sites there was a revolt or revolt like movement among some Armenians. Please summerise your cases, this isnt a forum, you are rambling on the same words over and over. I cannot allow propoganda to be on this article. I need you to proove your cases. It is a two sided discussion. Dont ignore the othersides views, which I am not that otherside, some historians are. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 21:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Here square one. Coolcat, there are admissions in the Armenian cases that can not be found in any other instances of genocides. And I have presented many from Turkish records in Fadix analysis. But of course by then... you did not wanted proves. "I have endeavored to wipe out the Armenian nation to the last individual" (onferdine kadaryok etmeye gah$tigim Ermeni milleti) Halil Pasa, Ittihad ve Terakkiden Cumhuriyete: Bitmeyen Sava§ (From Ittihad ve Terakki to the Republic: The Unending Fight) (Istanbul, 1972), p. 241 |
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::This was General Halil memoirs, the Supreme General of the East and Enver(the minister of war) Uncle. General Ilham himself testified as well not trying to leave a single Armenian alive in the zone he controlled. Commander of the third army, General Vehib,(the zone where most of the butchery happened) wrote a 12 pages affidavit, by an admission nowhere found in any other instances of genocides. And I have quote from it it in “Fadix analysis.” He testify the way the Ittihadist party has planned and executed the extermination of the Armenians. Mr. Torque as a result, claimed that it is not because Generals plan such acts that it means that the government planned it. But he had yet to explain why not only those generals were placed there, and some very close in the party(Halil), but as well Governors. Not any serious historian deny that the Armenian genocide happened, no serious historian claims there is no evidences. Yves Ternon has even written that the evidences used the prove the Armenian genocide happened are evidences higher than those used to write any other historical events. Was there Armenian revolt in 1914? Well, I thought this in the beginning, but after an extensive research, I am forced to conclude there was NO revolt at that date, was the cases about 1894, you might have some ground to claim that, but not for 1914. In fact, even the official Turkeys foreign ministry released Ottoman archives, the first one by chronology is dated in March 2, and concerns the deportation of Armenians and asked that revolts be prevented, and not be the deportation because of a revolt. Which means that Armenians were not moved because they were revolting. In fact, records from the Germans back in late 1914 shows that crimes against Armenians have started before any single Armenian incidences reported. This is entirely different than other instances in which you could have used the “revolt” claim. Even Gurun works report of Enver official announces of the law of “resettlement” it is referred to the “danger” the Armenians have been in the past, but nearly nothing about the danger they have shown to be during the war. In Feb. 1915, after Enver got his @ss saved before by an Armenian brigade after his defeat in the Russian front, felicitated the Armenians for their loyalty, while the same months the order of destruction has been promulgated during a meeting. And those are as well documented. But of course, when faced with evidences Coolcat, will claim this is not about proving. There is nothing such as 50:50, serious historians don't deny the genocide, and this is a historical event, therefore should present the cases as it is recognized by most historians. And I have no problem leaving a place for the Turkish government version, but as you have refused at the beginning, I expect you to refuse again. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 21:59, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Thoth, I don't agree with my version either, but I made many concessions, and that is why it seems to give more weight to revisionists than they worth it. But this does not satisfy them, they wish the article to be the Turkish government political version. As for apology, don't expect any from Coolcat. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:10, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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You should be the one to apologise for the level of insults fadix. Seems like it is necesary for you to destroys peoples credibilty by making them revisionsist/Turkish/whatever. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Historians apperantly widely accept whatever fadix says. I dont want your analysis, I want the documents' archive numbers in question. Majority doesnt make right. A disputed aricle cannot be truley neutral if it starts neutral. Just because you think something isnt NPOV doesnt make it not NPOV. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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You are taling about things you are claiming things you are not iclined to provide the documents. Is that it? I want to know which selection is from wich archive material. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:17, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Coolcat, I judge people on personal bases, I accuse someone and not a “nation.” While you were shouting “Armenian propaganda” here and there, I termed your behavior as denial and you as a denialist. I have no apology to make to you, because all what I said about you were what I believed and are grounded. And when I claimed you to be a Turk, it was not an insult, neither an attack, but rather a question of honesty. How do you expect me to believe that you will accept facts when they are presented, when you deny something that as we speak, no one will argue about, the fact that you are a “nationalist” Turk. As I have shown, there is more chances for me to win the lottery jackpot than you not being what I say. And no, I am not trying to destroy your credibility by claiming you to be a Turk, peoples words should be judged based on what they say, and not who they are, this is why I do not hide my ethnicity to anyone. True, Historians apparently widely accept what I say. But “WHY” do they accept it? You don't want them to be referred, you don't consider works published as evidences but you want archives. Coolcat, now follow my advice, read what is in “Fadix Analysis” while first you claimed that it was nothing to do with proving, now you want proves. But I just referred to Halils memoirs... and many other records are in Fadix analysis. Archives references are abound in works treating about the subject, instead of wasting our times with your rhetorics of “I want proves” read few works about the topic. I know, for you, historians are not people to trust in what concerns history, but I say, maybe, yes, maybe, you could change your mind. In two months Coolcat, the official translation(English translation) of the German archival records that are due for publication in a week or so in German original language... why don't you spent few dozens of dollars to buy it, and spare us with all this nonsense you spew here? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:31, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Sir Dr. Fadix, please drop the Mr. as I asked several times, thanks --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Reading fadix analysis is what I have done, Ill re read it. Why dont you rpovide the archive numbers, I believe you have the archives. If you havent seen the archives and dont know they are there, how certain are you they exist? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::I am NOT Turkish. I do not care if you accept it or not. Stop talking about it though. Talk about the article not me. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 22:39, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::From the way I was educated, Mr. Is a mark of respect. |
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::::Second, are you talking about the German archives? I have a scan of an original, do you perhaps want the picture to be posted? |
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::::Third, you seem to not have a clue of what the word “archive” means, perhaps a dictionary may help you. I provided you a memoir from Envers Uncle, you wanted an admission, and I posted it to you. There are records from General Paraquin, a German General, and the “Fadix analysis” actually quote many documents, as well as the archives in this discussion. You lie when you say you have read Fadix analysis, if you did not lie, than you done have sincere intentions to claim there is no archival records there. Read for instance my covering of Malta, it contains records from Turkish and British sources, such records are called “archives” as for “archive numbers” it is not called “archive numbers” if you refer to the archival classification ID, more particularly the BOA etc. Turkish records. |
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::::Perhaps do you want me to quote from Mevlan Zade Rifat “Turkie inkilabinin ic uyzu, Halep,” published in 1929???... the Verbatim of the Feb. meeting of the decision for the destruction of the Armenians? |
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::::Oh, well, perhaps, does Coolcat want me to quote Ottoman official archives guarded by the National assembly? |
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::::Coming to you not being a Turk. Coolcat, you called the Ottoman Turks as your ancestors, you called Armenians as 'Armanians” in various occasions, you have written the special organization name with Turkish characters. You have called the genocide theses as “Armenian propaganda.” You made claims only published in the Turkish press, nowhere else. You got involved in every entries directly or indirectly involving Turkey you can get a hand on. And Those are just a few. Again Coolcat, this is a question of trust, you are in the same situation as the Turkish government here. You know others know, but admitting it will show you've been lying. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:57, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Please avoid personal attacks. I suggest it would be more helpful to discuss the article than to discuss the motives of other editors. [[User:Jonathunder|Jonathunder]] 23:02, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC) |
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::I spent over a hundred pages on discussing on the article, the pther party was declaring it was not about "proving" but presenting positions, and now, the other party claims that historians are not to be trusted, works are not to be trusted... and when I refer to documents he claims where they are. In such cases, I believe questioning ones intention is the only thing left. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 23:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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It's very hard in this format of conversation to find an appropriate place to insert my reply. This reply is to Cool Cat's original post under "Response". --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Cool Cat - again you are repeating the same fallacy. Because Neo-Nazis deny the [[jewish holocaust]], does not mean the article should present their side as equal. Also regardless of any "deliberately kill" order, there was a genocide. You apparently have not read Survivors - since you didn't reply affirmatively above. In towns across Anatolia the same things happened. Able men were taken away and largely murdered. Women, children and elderly were told they were being moved, and were walked to the desert being pillaged and murdered and kidnapped and raped along the way. NO PROVISIONS were ever recorded for any of them to eat, be sheltered, or housed at any destination. They were by and large marched towards Der El Zor desert. They were escorted by soldiers who participated in their demise - and often prevented them even from taking care of themselves along the way. These are the simple facts. There IS no dispute that all the Armenians were moved, right? None? On any side? Now then - there is not a single document showing that these violations of the Armenians, by the Turkish soldiers and under their watch were punished. There is no record of any food or shelter actually being provided. No "destination" with any tents or shelters or anything. Not only this - the Armenians weren't even allowed to provide these things for themselves, which many could afford to. This is a death sentence. Since all agree that the Armenians were forcibly removed by the Ottoman government, and unless you can show any evidence that any assistance or protection was provided, and all eyewitness accounts confirm that these people were treated across the Empire in a way which could only be expected to lead to deeath, then it was clearly, undeniably a genocide. Very simple really. The ICTJ study confirms it and so do all the scholars who have not directly recieved financial assistance from the Turkish Govt. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Are you genuinely interested in the truth? Are you ever going to answer these particular points? Can you show anything detailing any food or shelter ever provided to these hundreds of thousands of people being relocated? These are critical points and they show up in my edit of the genocide article. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Raffi, I would like to specify what you brought, because it is necessary to do so. The official Ottoman records released by the General Directorate of the States Archives, do claim that food were supplied, but on the other hand, and here is the point Taner Akcam raised in his work, there is no list of such a provision, which means that those were just reports of "do this" without actualy any provision. For instance, there are lists in the cases of the Muslims that were moved from the Russian empire, lists going even as far as vaccination records. Imagine the Ottoman Empire had such lists for people that were not their subjects, but had none for the people that were their subjects(Armenians). This is why Akcam writes: “The fact that neither at the start of the deportations, nor en route, and nor at the locations, which were declared to be their initial halting places, were there any single arrangement, required for the organization of a people's migration, is sufficient proof of the existence of this plan of annihilation.” |
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::There is a differences between arrangement, and reports saying "provide foods" that the official archives contain, without any single lists. And this is how, during the tribunal, it was testified, that they had two set of document, one for public consuption saying: "feed them, give them food"(but without any lists on the relief that had to be recieved, neither any regarding how much recieved, which clearly show the "fake" nature of the official public consuption material), and on the other hand, other orders: "As soon as the Armenian convoys leave the cities and town, sent the special organization and the irregulars." And there were even documents as how much were actualy killed, and this is the investigation to know how much were killed took time to collect and calculate. And only the fact that the figure was even later recorded in a Turkish Official Military Book, indicate the "official" nature of the figure, without ignoring that it was even included in Bayur book, and Bayur himself affirmed them to be accurate data. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:14, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==In hope of finalising== |
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I hope the disputants can stop the bickering and personal insults for a bit. It's sad that these insults are being reproduced faster than I can remove them. |
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It seems to me that we've got the basics of general agreement on the facts. The Armenians were removed from their homes by force and transported in circumstances that predictably resulted in many deaths, perhaps a million or so. There is no question of this. I am minded to let disputants produce their final words--and don't waste time responding to personal attacks, stick to the subject. When that has been done I will unprotect the page. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 10:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I cannot at all agree that we are anywere close to agreement. This Coolcat character has hijaked this issue and has insured that it will go around and around for ever with no resolution. He disputes the view of historians and genocide scholars and claims that we must include denialist views. This is clearly unacceptable. Could you imagine such being presented on the Holocaust page? This meets every criteria of genocide. This is accepted fact. And there was no Armenian revolt in any sense that Coolcat claims - the evidence supports the opposite - overwhelmingly - that these were innocent populations/people who were killed. To attempt to make this case and insist that unsupported denilaist propoganda claims be given equal weight to commonly accepted acholarship and overwhelming evidence on this matter is clearly unacceptabel - in fact it is an outrage. Until we can get beyond this there is no possibility of resolution here - and this seemingly is what he wants. Fadix has presented more factual and supported information on this matter then I have seen in other genocide and related articles - yet his presentation is essentially shuffled to the side and very ugly racist attacks have been allowed against him and against Armenians. For presentations affirming Genocide Coolcat insists on levels of doscumentation/citation/verification that are in some cases very difficult to get - yet these points are widely known and accepted as the truth. Meanwhile he entertains any counter argument no matter how flimsy and disproven and calls for giving equal time. Again - it is the same as giving Holocaust deniers equal time. I for one will not participate in such an exercise but will continue my valid protests until some sanity can prevail here. I think that Coolcat has already clearly been exposed as biased on this issue. He cannot be allowed to determine the content of this article. And Fadix has provided more then enough effort and evidence to be allowed a free hand to make a proper presentation. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 14:48, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: THOTH, you seem to be determined to turn this discussion into a personal attack. I certainly don't expect Coolcat to have any influence in the content of the article, because his view is in the minority and is unsupported by the facts. I want to ask you to set aside your harping on personal grievances and instead concentrate on the article. It seems to me that we have the makings of a good, solid consensus on article content--notwithstanding Coolcat's demurrals. Thus I won't be holding this article under protection much longer if I can possibly help it. |
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: All I'm looking for is some sign that there is substantial agreement that the displacement of the Armenians was foreseeably homicidal in its execution. I think we can nearly all agree with this. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 14:59, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::THOTH - I know you're not excited by the layout of my working version - but why don't you go ahead and make the changes you'd like to see on there for us to look at? For the record, I think that ASALA should be on the page somewhere - especially the timeline, but that it should be a lead in to a thorough seperate article. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 16:39, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Raffi - my changes would be substansial. I'm not certain I would want to introduce such in their entirety without some basic agreements regarding what I might include and the approach I might take. I think it is important that we clearly establish some undisputed facts - such as the use of the term genocide and what we are primarily talking about - the actions taken by the Young Turk controlled government aparatus - against the Armenian population - before preceeding. But yes - I would love to take a cut at this. In fact I have an outline for such - in a sense - however it is 2 pages handwritten! yeah I know...but its intention is for a documentary film I am proposing to produce...(so I may not want to share it all...) --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:27, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:THOTH - I think you should outline the sections you want to have, and a one line summary of what would go there. I also think it seems clear we have a basic agreement that the events were a genocide, as that is how I proceeded with my rewrite. I tried to include all the relevant facts in the lead up to. Then the actual genocide, and then the aftermath of what happened. It seemed rather logical - but anyway, let's see what you have come up with (and want to share). --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 02:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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OK - but have patience. I'm approaching the deadline for tax filing and have some other obligations. My outline is not necessarily 100% appropriate for this presentation - as it is much concerned with the (prior) history - still I'll look it over and see if I can mod it and think what might be appropriate. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 13:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Concerning the legitimacy of using the term "genocide" in this case - and related issues == |
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(note - I just posted this and it was seemingly deleted in its entirety. if someone is playing games here I suggest that they stop!) |
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:<small>the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Armenian_Genocide&diff=next&oldid=11921323 deletion] was by [[User:RaffiKojian]]; however, there were edits by both of you in very close succession and I believe it was an entirely inadvertent consequence of an edit conflict. thanks for reposting it. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 18:30, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)</small> |
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Before it is possible to proceed further to develop this article (that I think basically needs to be redone from scratch) it is clear that certain issues must be resolved and certain facts and definitions agreed upon. First and foremost - of course – we must establish the legitimacy of use of the term "genocide" to describe the primary events we are discussing in the article. (I think Fadix has already more then adequately done so – but as this is – in a sense – a restart – and considering the controversy – I think we need to take this step by step and establish a baseline to provide an agreed upon foundation for the article. So is use of the term “genocide” legitimate. Wikipedia itself has an entry concerning genocide that should be referenced (and in it there are links to source material for such a definition) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide |
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I believe the evidence entirely and most clearly supports the contention that the Armenian people of Anatolia/the Ottoman Empire were subjected to a campaign of genocide and that what resulted from such was in fact genocide. For instance in 1985 the United Nations Economic and Social Council Commission on Human Rights |
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Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities released this following findings: (this is an excerpt with my highlights) |
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“…the distinguishing characteristics of the twentieth century in evolving the development of genocide "are that it is committed in cold blood by the deliberate fiat of holders of despotic political power, and that the perpetrators of genocide employ all the resources of present-day technology and organization to make their planned massacres systematic and complete". '''The Nazi aberration has unfortunately not been the only case of genocide in the twentieth century. Among other examples which can be cited as qualifying are''' the German massacre of Hereros in 1904, '''the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915-1916''', the Ukrainian pogrom of Jews in 1919, the Tutsi massacre of Hutu in Burundi in 1965 and 1972, the Paraguayan massacre of Ache Indians prior to 1974,16 the Khmer Rouge massacre in Kampuchea between 1975 and 1978, and the contemporary Iranian killings of Baha'is. |
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Additionally (the footnote): |
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'''At least 1 million, and possibly well over half of the Armenian population, are reliably estimated to have been killed or death marched by independent authorities and eye-witnesses. This is corroborated by reports in United States, German and British archives and of contemporary diplomats in the Ottoman Empire, including those of its ally Germany. The German Ambassador, Wangenheim, for example, on 7 July 1915 wrote "the government is indeed pursuing its goal of exterminating the Armenian race in the Ottoman Empire"''' (Wilhelmstrasse archives).” |
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And: |
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“The Turks also in 1919-20 held trials: not of ‘war criminals’ but of some of the Ottomans guilty of the Armenian genocide”. |
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http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.169/current_category.6/affirmation_detail.html |
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Based on this statement alone I believe we can justifiably use the term “genocide” to apply to the Armenian case. But of course there are reams of other affirmations of use of this term to apply to this case. One other statement I want to add to illustrate the proper use of the term is the 1995 Resolution by the State Duma of Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation: |
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Based on irrefutable historic facts which attest to the extermination of Armenians on the territory of Western Armenia from 1915 to 1922 and, in accordance with the following Conventions adopted by the United Nations: |
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Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, December 9, 1948; |
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Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity, November 26, 1968; |
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Aspiring to restore the humanitarian traditions of the Russian State and, |
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Emphasizing that through the initiative of Russia, the Great European Powers already in 1915 characterized the actions of the Turkish Empire against the Armenian people as a "Crime Against Humanity" and, |
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Noting that the physical extermination of the fraternal Armenian people in its historic homeland aimed at destroying Russia; |
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The State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation: |
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Condemns the perpetrators of the extermination of Armenians from 1915 to 1922; |
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Expresses its deep sympathy to the Armenian people and recognizes April 24 as a day of remembrance for the victims of the Genocide. |
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http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.151/current_category.7/affirmation_detail.html |
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I invite others to comment and to provide other links if it is thought necessary. I think we should come to agreement on use of this term and move on. Once we move beyond this point I think we should perhaps examine and agree upon a basic chronology of the Genocide and then discuss the issue of pre-meditation (proof for such) and perhaps motivation/justification/intent and then we should arrive at an agreement and develop a presentation illustrating the mechanics of how the Genocide was carried out (deportations [including by who/what means – with examples etc] and perhaps introduce the subject of the concentration camps and what they were etc, discuss instances of mass killings [again by who – role of Kurds and such should also be discussed] and methods of killings etc) . We should conclude with the results of the Genocide – depopulation Armenians from Anatolia and discuss numbers of total (and perhaps place specific) deaths. This I propose is the outline of a very basic presentation that I think we can establish as fact. Beyond this there are numerous other issues and events that could and do warrant further in-depth discussion. But I propose that we proceed with the basics - as just outlined – in a step-by-step fashion. Then at some point I think we need to address this whole issue of Turkish counter-charges (legitimate or not) and the issue and history of genocide denial.--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:33, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Again - concerning use of the term "genocide" and why I think the entire article - and specifically the introductory paragraph needs to be completely re-written (there are word, sentence and paragraph structure issues as well). First – Tony Sidaway has presented an argument that he claims everyone agrees on – and I think I can agree that it is agreed to and well proven – that (at a very minimum) the Government of Turkey ordered the “deportation” of Armenians from their homes without any provision to ensure that they were cared for – ie – that the intention (or at least the clear understanding) was that these people were going to die – and for the most part they did – through the rigors of forced march without food or water or from deliberate murder en route. It is also clear that the Turkish authorities emptied all cities, towns, villages and the countryside of Eastern Anatolia – the traditional and acknowledged home of the Armenian people – leaving (resulting in) very few Armenians living/left in these areas. Additionally, with only a few exceptions, the Young Turk controlled Ottoman government “deported” significant portions of Armenians from all other inhabited areas of Anatolia leaving these areas likewise empty of Armenians. Thus – as the accepted definition of genocide clearly includes this concept of removing people from their homes and destroying them as a group – which is what was done. (and what occurred meets the mental element as well as at least 4 of the 5 physical elements – not sure about preventing births)…I think its clear that we can easily call this genocide without (serious) objection) – (here is the excerpt BTW): |
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'''The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. |
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Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide: |
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1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and |
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2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."''' |
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"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: |
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(a) Killing members of the group; |
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(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; |
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(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; |
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(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; |
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(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. |
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Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence: |
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Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death. |
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Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation. |
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'''Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services.''' Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, '''detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.''' |
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Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation. |
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Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years. |
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Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence. |
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--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 15:49, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Working Version == |
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What do folks think of the [[Armenian Genocide - Working Version]]? --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 17:35, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I don't like it on a number of levels. I don't like the way it begins - talking about issues being disputed. (this discussion should be later). A clear presentation of what was done - by whom - affecting who and the aftermath need to be presented. I think more contextual information needs to be listed as well. I also think we need to seperate the actual event(s) with the other controversy surounding (Turkish denial and attempts to get recognition, commemeration etc). In general I find the overall approach and content to be disatisfying. (not that it is all bad - but this is my gut reaction). --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 17:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*** '''Are you making fun of people, or what? Your "working version"(!) is even worse than Fadix's last version. "Turkey disputes..." Yeah, yeah, have respect for yourselves. Not a mention of Turks attacked by Armenians. Language more fanatic than Fadix's "academic" language. THOTH even doesn't like this version: we need to separate "actual" events with "turkish denial". Actual events, meaning the "events" written by paid historians of Armenian lobby in 90 years of work? You don't have any willing to reach a consensus. The only thing you want is using wikipedia as Armenian diaspora's propaganda page. You are so fanatic, so racist that you even believe "turks are genetically dumb" so that you can fool them easily. Go put your "working version" in your propaganda sites, you have zillions of them.''' --[[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 21:03, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Well well - a nice diatribe - but that is about all you are aparently good for. Tony Sidaway - a Wikipedia moderator/administrator of some sort has stated that Coolcat would likely not be contributing much to this article as his views are in the minority and are unsubstantiated. I suspect that your position - particularly if it is as aparently misinformed and in line with Turkish denilist propoganda as it seems will fall into a similar category. However I would like to extend the invitation for you to contribute - factually, with support and where appropriate where you deem it necessary to present additional information. Still I would warn you to not attempt to brand me racist or a fanatic - as I am neither - but yes - in fact - I do believe that there is a substansial difference between the truth of this matter and what commonly passes for the official Turkish perspective - which is essentially denial of the truth. I do think that both the common Armenian viewpoints and that of most Turks are missing key aspects of the truth as seen from the other side - however it is likewise clear to me that the common Armenian perspective has much more in common with that of serious scholars on this issue and that this version is far closer to the truth - or at least the most relevant facts that that which is commonly espoused form the Turkish side. And yes - the article - as it currently stands is far too compromised with wishy washy language. What occured should be made clear. The fact of genocide should be clear - the program for carrying such out and the methods - all extensively witnessed and documented - should be accuratly presented. I have yet to see any real (supportable) dispute to the basic contentions of genocide and of the Ottoman campaign of deportation (to death) and massacre as accepted by historians and by observers from the time. I do not dispute that there might be ancillary events that should be presented in a comprehensive manner taking into account the Turkish perspective - however I have yet to see anything that truly disputes the fundemental accepted assertions of genocide and the basic chronology of events and results. Issues of Turks attacked by Armenians and such - while they did occur and were an unfotunate sign of violence of the times - are neither in the same category of crimes (just based on numbers and for other reasons as well) and are not any type of viable justification or counterweight to the fact that over 1 million Armenians were mercilessly slaughtered by the Ottoman Turk state aparatus. I suggest that you attempt to educate yourself just a bit on this issue and not just accept what your government has been preaching to you. I know that it is difficult as you have been taught that a Turk can do no wrong and that everything done was justified or happend to Turks and not by Turks - but just calling us racsist because we are attempting to present the truth is not going to cut it. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 20:30, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Raffi, I have to disagree with you and Thoth here. I made those concessions while back, and there is no turn back, it is the only way to work on. The Turkish government denial, I have a problem with as term. I know this is what it is, but "denial" imply that the thing did happen, and might be a proposition of word. A better term would be: "What is often called as denial" and I have planned to make an entry about that. Those things should have their enteries, like the losses with relevent sources and quotes. |
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::Now, comming to you Cezveci, just something, be easy calling Thoth as "fanatic" and "racist" the same Thoth that has been attacked by "fanatic" and "racist" Armenians. I am just saying this, because it might just turn against you, more so when you have called members of a Turkish human right organization as racist against their owns. |
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::As for Armenians paying historians, please feel free to provide examples, on the other hand, the corruption of Western academicians by Turkey is well documented, and there has been articles published in the cronicle of higher education, and the Holocaust and Genocide studies, and I can provide here a list of such academics and the funds they have recieved. |
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::Thoth, why I disagree with you, is because I think you don't understand Wikipedia NPOV, it is not about the truth, but presenting the versions about an event, you can not suggest something directly, but rather present the arguments from each sides and their critics(not your critics, but the critics of the "other side"). But Wikipedia was well requires more place to be left for the version most supported. This was first the way I was working on the version, before being interupted by Coolcat. I think for the time, since there is an arbitration cases between me and Coolcat, we should refrain making much changes of the article, but I do still believe that the version before the new aliases edition should be left. I, on my side, will be working on another entry, regarding the Armenian losses, and this according to each sides. I have decided to stick to Wikipedia neutral point of view way, because I am starting to like it, and is actualy the best way to discuss the matter. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:45, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Fadix - I admit that i am still developing an understanding and appreciation of how Wikipedia approaches issues - but I have been reviewing many differnt and diverse entries and their associated talk pages - so I am catching on (and am not entirely ignorant). I have yet to edit any page - only comment here. I am reluctant to edit the current article both nbecause of allthe ongoing and past baggage associated with it and because it is reallylacking in a very many areas (not the only Wikipedia presentation to suffer from this and other shortfalls however). I am adamant about presenting the truth however and I will never be satisfied if this event is whitewashed such as many official genocide (not called such) resolutions often are. ANd you know me from our interaction on other sites in the past - I am one of the more accepting of aspects of the Turkish perspective. I am a known and admitted admirer of Ataturk and a lover of Turks! I have been to Turkey and enjoy its culture and people. I have (several) very good Turkish friends here in the states. I hold no animosity towards Turks whatsoever and I am fair and balanced in my beliefs and approach. Still - I will not ever accept a whitewashing of the truth. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 20:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*** '''The tragedy does not confirm to the official definition of genocide by UN. If it was, the international law would confirm that, and either Armenia or the Armenian diaspora could invite Turkey to international court. But, they haven't done that for 90 years, because they know they will lose. Rather, they write a history on their own through fake documents and propagate their version of history throughout Europe and North America. We have also seen in this discussion how these fanatics try to hide facts and how they are willing to put John Kerry's statement as an important development while supressing facts about ASALA terror. Nobody is claiming that the Armenians deserved it, no nation "deserves" anything in the history and nothing happens without any reason, as you are trying to claim (please tell me "why" turks killed armenians, if you are so expertised about history). But I think you all believe that Turkish diplomats and civilians have deserved being killed by ASALA, that's why you're trying to hide the facts about ASALA. It is very clear here "who are trying to hide facts" and "who are trying to acknowledge all claims and doubts about history". However, as I see that you are so determined to promote hate against Turks, and that is your only motivation, I am proposing that the following disclosure be added at the top of the page and you can write whatever will make you happy and fulfill your uncontrolled hate: "This article discusses an internationally disputed issue and is allowed to be edited by the defenders of only one view of history. The defenders of the other view claim that the article is extremely biased, is based on fake documents and revision of history, aims for Armenian diaspora's propaganda and promotes hate against Turks. " (As you see, I can use a neutral language even when I am talking about "my" claims). """ |
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::::Seems to me that you fail to understand how such cases are treated in international courts. But before making the point clearer, the UN recognize it as genocide, the Permanent People Tribunal recognize it as genocide, the International Center for Transitional Justice just recently as well concluded genocide. The Turkish military tribunal, concluded there was a programmed plan of destruction which was successfully executed(at that time, the word genocide was still not coined). An international court like Hague can only used to condemn and trial criminals, the criminals in this cases are already dead. Beside Armenia can not do anything as representing one party, because Armenia was a part of what was known as Russian Armenia, which was “outside” of most of the crimes. The lawyer who coined the word genocide included the Armenian cases as part of the definition of genocide. You know what this means? It means that in comparative studies, what is like what happened to the Armenians is classified as genocide. International courts like Hague which are charged to trial war criminals can only be used to charge and condemn criminals, when they are dead, other such international bodies are used to classify whatever or not what happened was in fact genocide. |
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::::As for fanatics, I will never call an Armenia human right organization as racist against their own, like you have done with those Turks you have called just that. Not only I will never call them what you have called those Turks, but I will even praise them, and support them. Don't call others what you have displayed yourself please, this is highly hypocritic. |
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::::Coming to fake documents. Do you actually believe that researchers are so easily fooled by a people that its world population is only about 8 million? Be serious please. Do you actually believe that Armenians at night, in some sort of way managed to enter in Bonn “centralarchiv” building, and such places, and have managed to forge German documents? Do you think they did the same for all those other countries archives? Or what about the Turkish military tribunal? Do you think Armenians managed to forge documents for them as well? What about all those witnesses? Maybe the Ottoman third army commander Vehib was an Armenian, and wrote a fake affidavit, maybe Halil memoirs published in Istanbul were forged and the words relating to his plan of not living a single Armenian alive, just fabricated. Maybe those Germans officials communicating with General Ilham were all Armenians passing as Germans. Maybe General Paraquin was Armenian. Maybe the German in charge of one of the special organization was as well Armenian, and in his report was just lied. Maybe all those hundreds of officials, generals, soldiers etc. were all Armenians comploting against the Turks. Armenians would even beat the “Jews” like they are considered by some wacko Holocaust revisionists, we afteral, a little group of people, 8 million, are successful of doing all that. |
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::::Coming to ASALA. Do you have any idea of why ASALA appeared in the 70s-80s ? Do you know that the first murder was actually from an elderly men having lost his entire family during the genocide? Do you know why those dates? It was in the 70s, years after the 50nt year of commemoration of the Armenian genocide, that the Turkish government has finally decided to once for all erase history, by sending diplomats around the world, founding chairs of history's to deny the genocide. Do you want a neutral work regarding ASALA? I propose you one written in Israel: “Asala--Irrational Terror or Political Tool” by Ariel Merari, Jerusalem Post, Jerusalem, 1985. Reading it, you just might maybe understand why the Jerusalem post, during those years of Palestinian terrorism, has classified ASALA as a terrorist organization very much different than any other such organizations. The introduction of the work, is a good start. Let me quote a little bit from it for you: “In 1973 two Turkish diplomats were shot in Los Angeles by an 80-year old Armenian named Kirkan Yanikian. Behind this act of revenge by a lone individual lay a national reawakening among the dispersed Armenians in the world, which had begun in the early 1970s. This incident might gradually have been forgotten, had it not in fact catalyzed a chain of events which turned it, and its perpetrator, into a symbol signifying the end of the conspiracy of silence which since 1915 had surrounded the holocaust of the Armenian people. Since 1975 some 30 Turkish diplomats or members of their families have been attacked in dozens of terrorist actions, with the result that Armenian revenge, as well as the background to the Armenian struggle, have become a near permanent feature in the world press. These terrorist acts were actually carried out by a small group of people, but due to their spectacular nature they were successful in bringing the Armenian tragedy to the forefront of international awareness.” |
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::::... |
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::::“The absence of a popular support base within its homeland constitutes a critical limitation for any organization with nationalist aspirations. In the present case this has dictated the central characteristics of ASALA, and in effect has determined the nature of the international framework within which the organization operates.” |
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::::... |
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::::“The ASALA phenomenon is of special interest to the Jewish people and to Israel for several reasons. Both Jews and Armenians have been the victims of genocide in the 20th century. The establishment of ASALA was a belated reaction to the holocaust which struck the Armenian people, and an indirect result of the conversion of Beirut into the terrorist capital of the world during the 1970s.” |
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::::Do I support this organization? No I don't... what I have against though, is your uses of what happened decades after the event, to try to picture Armenians as some sort of animals at the bottom of the food chain, who somehow merited what happened to them in 1915, regardless of your denial of doing just that. I don't support terrorism, but I understand it(understanding and supporting something is two different thing). Had it not been of ASALA, possibly the memory of the Armenian genocide would have been erased from history... had it not been of this terrorist organization acting after the Turkish government foundation and funding, and sending of diplomats around the world as tool of denial..., there are chances that in Wikipedia there would be no “Armenian genocide” entry. So, now perhaps you may understand why I have deleted the reference to ASALA, because the way it was cited, makes it no sense at all that it is in anyway related to the Armenian genocide, because it does not say anything about the true aim of the organization that had to do with the genocide, but rather its terrorist nature, that itself alone has little to do with the genocide... and at that period, the ASALA entry was POV(Coolcat POV), but since then, it has somehow been neutralized(not by me, but others). Now you can understand why ASALA was even by some Western country not really classified of terrorism at the beginning, people were easy about it. They were rather called a “terror” organization, I know, it might be a synonym. |
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::::Oh, and for the “why Turks have killed Armenians.” I have answered this in my other answer to you above. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 22:23, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I would like to second Fadix's excellent response to this contention that such an absurd "disclosure" and the suggestion that mention of ASALA has any place in the core of a discussion concerning the Armenian Genocide. It is the fact of the Genocide itself as known and accepted by scholars and international bodies that must be presented not unproven and highly suspect contentions that only support one POV – that of the government of Turkey and certain of its citizens and supporters who have clear agenda/bias and misunderstanding of the truth. |
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This issue of "disclosure" is patently absurd. Again - if such were considered acceptable as a lead in to the discussion of the Holocaust on Wikipedia then perhaps it might be considered acceptable here - but that of course would be an admission that anyone might dispute known facts and history from whatever questionable and unproven basis - because that is exactly what you propose and its "not worth the ink it is written on". |
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I think ASALA perhaps merits its own entry or discussion in a section that deals with genocide denial and its response. But ASALA was a group and a phenomenon that existed independently, was not supported by the vast numbers of Armenians nor any other Armenian organizations and it has no direct relevance on the Genocide that was committed in and around 1915 - unless, in fact you acknowledge that the Genocide is perhaps ongoing as continued Turkish denial of such is perpetuation. Even then ASALA needs to be presented in proper context not POV which is what you propose. |
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As for why Turks killed Armenians that can be easily answered - but should be done in the article itself and IMO it cannot be viewed in isolation but is related to the earlier massacres of Armenians by Turks that occurred in the 1890s and in Adana in 1909 and in relation to the overall political and economic environment and the fall/dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. IMO to properly discuss and present this entire matter the rise of (and ascendancy of hyper Turkish nationalists within) the Committee of Union and Progress (Young Turks) needs to be presented (or at least linked to - with proper relation to the Armenians - and it is already there [in the Wikipedia presentation] in part) and a proper understanding of the entire "Armenian Question" in regards to the Ottoman Empire and its downfall (Fall of Empire, failure of government to adapt to the times, including the corruption, violence, lawlessness etc – as well as the history of break-away of other nationalities (and the influx of Muslim refugees), the dire economic and political straights of the nation [including impact of WWI and relations with the European powers] and the [Turkish] revolution against and fall from power/grace of the Sultan...and why the Sultan earlier chose to suppress and massacre Armenians…and how Turkish nationalism became a force to the detriment of other sects/nationalities within the empire) - all of this should be presented (or at least properly linked to). However the core of the presentation should clearly present the Genocide for what it was with the surrounding events and causative issues presented as they warrant. In the mean time I see little value in your contributions amounting to only calling Armenian's hateful fanatics with no proof of such. What we are trying to present is accurate history. I will give you the benefit of the doubt to not call you hateful - but only ignorant and consumed with nationalist fervor. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 15:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Working version moved== |
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:: '''NOTE''' I have moved [[Armenian Genocide - Working Version]] to [[Armenian Genocide/Working version]] in accordance with site policy on working versions. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 14:03, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==To follow the progress== |
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[[User:Fadix/Ottoman_Armenian_Casualties]] This is the article I am working on, it is at a very early stage of developpement. It will only concentrate on the casulties figures on this article. More info and the footnotes will be added later. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 03:24, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==Unprotecting== |
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This period of protection has gone on much longer than I anticipated, and I'm releasing it for edits because I don't think anything more can be achieved by this process. I will only protect again if you all start being naughty and getting into an edit war again, so behave. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]]|[[User talk:Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 13:00, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I have moved the working version to the current article page. Since nobody else made any changes - I am going to assume it can at least be used as the basis for further changes... --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:34, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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==My views== |
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I believe in rewiewing facts. I do not care what you were told/taught. I am a scientist, my job is to examine the facts. I would have left this article alone LONG ago if I was not insulted on an edit basis. It had been my experience that if people are not willing to discuss the factuality of their "facts", they are not necesarily "facts". Not all mass number of deaths are defined as "Massacre". I never declared the entier artilce as propoganda, I never acused you of things. Some material looks one sided. I challenge their factuality. I challenge the factuality of all material. If you cant prove it I have no reason to believe in it. I do not care what Historians think, I care about <u>why they think what they think based on what</u>. Do you have a problem with that? It is imposible to discuss this as long as you keep insulting me and any party that joins the conversation. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 02:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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*Fadix analysis provides me no relevant info. It has to be cleaned. I do not care you disputing some other party, who apears to be Torque, views. I care about evidence and factual material. Or would you rather folow the: Must be true because my uncle/this scholar/I said so attitude? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:Well Cool Cat - as I have said before, I think your approach was not fair to anyone. Coming into a discussion on an article like this, without first educating yourself on the subject better was a massive imposition on the discussion. Saying things like Armenians weren't 100% innocent is like saying a rape/murder victim "asked for it" because of the way they dressed. You cannot deserve such a thing. I draw the comparison to the Jewish experience again and again. Just because the Turkish Government has not done the honorable thing yet and admitted it, unlike the German Government, doesn't mean Armenians should be subjected to this kind of "why don't you prove it to me" attitude by one person after another. It has been proven thoroughly, and you have not yet taken the time to educate yourself on the subject. That is *exactly* what the Turkish Government counts on. People don't have time. If the Turkish Govt claims something outrageous, people will assume there might be (perhaps *must* be) some truth to it. The simple fact that nationalism had hit the area just like it had all over Europe meant that some Armenians began to dream of independence, or at least better treatment, and that some Turks began dreaming of a new Turkish Nation-State-Empire, from the Bosphorus to China (Tajikistan) - incidentally the traditional Western Armenians name of Turks is "Tajik" (Dajig) the place of the Turkish origin. The ones with the latter ambitions gained control of the Ottoman Turkish Empire and the destruction of a 3,000 year presence followed.. genocide. --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:34, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Historic discussion, we do not discuss politics, we do not discuss what politicians say, we discuss history. Current claim is that Turks killed Armenians for the money in the middle of a war, correct me if I am wrong. Logicaly speaking, you can forcefully take money and moving people requires some money, Turks had their hands full with russians. Logicaly there is a problem, if they desperately need cash, why do they spend it? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 08:53, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Just because Turkish Goverment did not recognised Armenian Genocide does not mean everything regarding the Genocide can be accepted eyes closed. Most trekkie fans dream of a "United Earth". Russians have always wanted to reach the Mediterranian, still do. China want Taiwan, claim its theirs. Mexicans unofficialy want what they lost to the Americans (at least some do). --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 08:53, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::I do not see money as a sufficent sole motive. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 08:53, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::In order to discuss armenian genocide, one must not assume it as a fact. If it is a fact, there is nothing to discuss, then why is prooving it in the article so hard. I currently surrendered the article to fadix as he will revert everything, often without reading. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 08:53, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::My reply to all three of your points is: When did I ever say anything about money being a motive? When did anyone? What are you talking about? And frankly - motives are irrelevant. Your attempt to understand motives in order to believe there could have been a genocide at all is quite frankly, insulting. We all agree it was not logical to kill all the Armenians, ok? So please don't ask us to convince you it was!! --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::No fadix said that, you are not the only party in the discussion. In a suspected murder motive is the first thing asked in court. Unless a person is insane there is a logical reason to kill. Now if we want to talk about the classification of "massacre". Any information that suggests this was infact not a genocide is as relevant as any information sugesting itwas infact a genocide. Why did Turks kill all armenians to begin with? Why did Turks walk them to death. While its a long walk, people are likely to survive it. If you want exterimination no one should survive it. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Again, I have never refused that the “other side” should be presented, but this “other side” should be specified by whom it is claimed, and this you refuse. |
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::::: And what dumb thing it is to write something like: “While its a long walk, people are likely to survive it. If you want exterimination no one should survive it.” |
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::::: Before writing such a BS, take a map and study where Armenians were sent. Perhaps, maybe you should visit Del-El-Zor in Summer and try to survive there for a week on direct Sun, without anything to protect yourself from. Oh and, of course, without water too. Maybe if you do survive, someone then release from prison criminals and send them on you, so that he “study” what is your chances of survival. And if it happens that you die, that person dare your family to sue him and claim that his intention was not to “kill” you, and that there was no premeditation in sending you in the desert for a week on the Sun, without water, and there was neither any premeditation to release from prison murderers and send them on you. |
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::::: Le see, what “logical” reason that person might come with that will free him from charges of murder. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 20:41, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::RaffiKojian, I am not trying to offend you, frankly I prefer putting verifiable information regarding the matter. Archive numbers should be a start, a good historian always mentions his resources. <i>Why historians investigating the matter think what they think based on what</i>? I expect to be overwhelmed with material as claimed this is a fact, lack of material implies uncertainty, uncertainty imlies lack of factual acuracy and room for propoganda to fill. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 08:58, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::Well as you can see from the population articles Fadix put together, if we waste weeks of our time, we can apparently please you. But if you were to just read some books yourself instead of demanding we quote every single word used to you, you'd see the whole picture, and that everything we have written is sound. If we used sources as poor as Torque and others, we could apparently have convinced you that the moon is made of cheese - it is about studying the entire subject, not just including quotes. It is nice for you that "you expect to be overwhelmed with material" from us. It is nice for you that you "prefer weblinks to books", but other people have lives, you know? I really find your "I'm an ignorant outsider, go ahead and educate me" attitude infuriating and intolerable. It is not our job (as I have said before) to hold every persons hand who has just heard something about the genocide and isn't sure whether to believe the Turkish Government denial or not, and to walk them through the whole thing. So if you take a step back, try to imagine a genocide victim being subjected to this day after day, year after year, perhaps you'd appreciate better some of the anger and impatience that has been displayed. Again, I tell you GO TO THE LIBRARY - read Survivors, read Hovanissian and Dadrian, I even encourage you to read books like Fiegl's Myth of Terror. After that, you can come back and edit the article like a pro. But before that, you really need to take it a bit easy... --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 03:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::Read this book and you will have my POV and then youll edit this article my way is what you suggest? I am sure Armenians are not baselessly claiming it is genocide, I am also sure Turks arent baselessly claiming it wasnt genocide. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::No! What he is saying, is that you should at least read about the subject you want to be involved in. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:46, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Apperantly Fadix, aside from swearing and screaming came up with a brilliant article. [[User:Fadix/Ottoman Armenian Casualties]]. Congrats, we can work like that. Book links are great, web links may be more insightfull. ;) --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 09:05, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I propose fadixes article be moved as an actual wiki article. And numbers on this and all Armenian Genocide article be based on highest and lowest numbers represented in that article. That looks good. I am not moving it myself to evade conflict. The move button will do it. All the blaber about numbers on Armenian Genocide be linked to fadixes page. I say thats a barnstar candidate, any objections? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 09:14, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::As a scientist, you have a funny way to see what is the job of a scientist is. Please stop repeating this over and over again. I am as well a scientist, but I have never used this to improve my credibility. |
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::Look Coolcat, I have to admit that you did nothing to change, you have edited the article and reintroduced what I believe even Tony has agreed to not be the best changes, when you have reintroduced the same thing over again. |
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::As for the Fadix analysis, I am not here to educate you about a subject that you have even not bothered reading about, you ignored at first who was Justin McCarthy, the revisionists number one reference. You can't expect to claim there is no evidences, and wait others to answer you, when you were not able to cite a single book you have read about the topic. |
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::I know a lot about math, I could have worked in Fourier entry etc. or such entries, it is one of my field of studies... but have not injected myself in such discussions, because there are possibly PhDs and people that know very much about such topics to work on them. I will not participate in a subject I don't know well about. It would be logical, and ideal for any Wikipedians to do the same. If someone is here to neutralize the tone, great, if someone is here to delete informations like you have been doing, or recopy and past things which its deletion has been explained in the talk page and the users own talk page... I would consider this as a cases of harming Wikipedia. |
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::And more so, you again interpret, more particularly in your answer to Raffi. This is what I call biases, I do have my opinions about the topic, but I can give educated opinions, from what I have studied, I will cite from all major revisionist works, including Halacoglu recent studies that would be considered as jokes by any high standard in the field, but you on the other hand, will comment about it, when you know near to nothing. Will a true scientist do this, or would he rather study and than judge? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:14, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::And another thing, please don't edit my posts in talk pages, more particularly in the archives as you have done with my "Fadix analysis" and more recently, entrie paragraphs were just deleted by someone. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:17, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::: Give me one occasion I edited your posts that changed its meaning? I only remove personal insults. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::::::You have played with my archived posts, and it happens that entire section was deleted few days after yours. I don't know who did it, but I really don't like that, please leave them to others, seems that Tony is here trying to moderate, as a party that is implicated, I don't like you to edit things that have no reason to be edited. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 04:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Agree good article on numbers by Fadix - as usual. I've always regarding these type of arguments contesting how many were killed to be somewhat strawmen like - as they really have little bearing or relevance (IMO). The fact that under the cover of war the Young Turks undertook (a successful) campaign to rid Anatolia of Armenians (and other Christians...oh and not just for their wealth BTW - but it was certainly a factor...again many parallels t the Holocaust) - and the results of ethnic cleansing/genocide through deportation and massacre of innocent civilian populations is unchanged - regardless of the numbers. It is still a genocide and a terrible crime against humanity and against the Armenians - regardless. |
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Fadix and I have both sucessfully debunked the McCarthy figures/claims in the past. The extreme "wand waving" done by McCarthy concerning numbers of Armenians within the various Ottoman provinces via the various seriously flawed "census" counts (or to use the Turkish venacular - "so-called" census counts) is testament to his flawed and biased (again "so-called" scholarship). I do find more worthwhile information in "Death and Exile" - but it is clear he is pitching his agenda of complete Turkish apolegetics and is not interested in truth. |
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Anyway. I have transcribed about 1/3 of my outline as I would like to present it. While I ussually just write rapidly off the top of my head in these talk pages and on forums - for somethign of this magnitude I am deliberate and try to really think things through. Obviously I will miss much regardless - and I am hoping that my proposed outline will be well recieved and become a basis for a serious presentation of the Armenian Genocide. The current article is neither appropiatly encompassing nor does it empahsise all of what I believe are the key events and key points that should be raised. I also find the current article to somewhat lack context - so much so that I think it would be difficult for the casual reader to truly understand what occured (in part better linkages and references will help). I hope to have something to present sometime this week. I believe it will be worth waiting for to at least consider some of my points even if the group may not decide to abandon the current article and proceed on this new path in its entirety. Thanks for the consideration. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 23:04, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Actualy, Death and Exile Academically speaking I would consider as less worthy, because of the nature of “throwing” numbers and attempt to mislead people. I gave an example where McCarthy referred to Van, and footnoted Nogales and Ussher, when both were saying the complete opposite to what McCarthy was claiming. Or his footnote on Erzerum etc, or the way he throw absolute numbers. Well, apparently Dr. Frédéric Paulin the one who studied McCarthy, from the researches he has done in many advanced mathematic domains, will become a name to remember for mathematicians. (many of it, accessible from his personal web page) While McCarthy in the last few years has lost his credibility in the Academic world. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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===...=== |
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I am not trying to improve my credibility, on wikipedia everyone has equal level of credibility, however on many ocasions my credibility was disputed on this page which is at best unwiki. I want to hear more <i>"Why historians investigating the matter think what they think based on what?"</i>, less <i>"Coolcat is bad."</i>, less <i>"Tony sais so"</i>, less <i>"Genocide is fact because I said so"</i>. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I would like to remind you to <i>be tolerant of others views, even if you disagree with them. You may well regard the other party's views as being on the fringe. This may even be true, but Wikipedia is aiming for a [[NPOV|neutral point of view]], not to exclude unconventional views. We are not trying to write a "single correct version of the truth."</i>--[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 03:50, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Quit the official talk please, in Wikipedia there is no such thing as having equal credibility, it is like in real life, peoples credibility are hurt, or some become more credible due to behaviors. Besides, your arguments against historians is purely offending for the discipline called history. That you have not done any research about a topic, one can understand that, but that you question the entire field of history as to claim that what historians believe is not relevant in what regards history, I find that quite offending for the tens of thousands of historians that publish works and study history, and this in any subjects. Wikipedia is not about presenting subjects the way it is appealing for you, but rather is a place of resource that collect what is relevant regarding a subject. And this has nothing to do with, wherever or not a version satisfies me or not. I have no problem presenting any versions of history, what I have a problem with, is your anti-NPOV policy of wanting to present two positions as equally valid, you want to suggest in all the articles that relates to Turkey, directly or indirectly, two theses as equally valid, when they are against the Turkish government point of view. |
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::If you want to present the Turkish government version regarding a subject, go build your website, this place is not your server. And as I said, take this as an offense, but if you can not neutralize this article, neither have no knowledge about the subject, you are not needed here, your presence is worthless in this entry because you can not contribute in any way. There are some here that probably don't know much about the subject, but still, they can neutralize the article and not POV push, you are not one of them. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 04:22, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Please respect the right of others to hold their views. This does not mean that you have to agree with me, but just agree to disagree. Discuss the <b>facts</b> and <b>how to express them</b>, <b>NOT</b> the attributes of the other party, in this case me. Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is. Negative personal comments and "I'm better than you" attacks, such as "You have no life." are not welcome. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 05:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::Finding “facts” is the task of researcher in the topic, Wikipedia doesn't permit for one to write his “research” or theses like, without being peer reviewed. The only way of writing such articles is to present views and positions defended, and by each parties by specifying who's position it is. You still refuse this, and you can go ask to any admins or veterans that are not in Wikipedia for POV pushing, and they will confirm what I just said. My critic of you has nothing to do with differences of opinion, personal opinion does not change the courses of a Wikipedian article. My critic of you is that you edit the article to “mean” things, when you were unable to cite any works you have read about the topic. This is the whole point here. Davenbelle or other editors have not done what you've did, neither Tony. |
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::This is how I say, you have no place in the process of writing the article, neither do you have knowledge of the positions, but you are opinioned about the topic, when you lack the knowledge... and you try to color the article based on that opinion. And again , I repeat, this has nothing to do with views. That I have certain views or not about the article, what was my goal, was to present each positions, and specify from which party it comes from, and Wikipedia stat that this is what should ideally be done, and I believe that do to the conflict that Turks like you have with the article, it is the only way to do things. I am sure that not a single Admin will tell that this is not what should be done. |
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::Therefore I pass to a vote. I ask people to vote, be it Tony, or anyone. Who agree that the Armenian genocide entry should present each major views, given as much spaces as it is accepted in the Academia, present the best arguments from each sides, their critics(when there is). I advance that it is the only way to do this. So I pass this to a vote. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:07, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I am sorry, I was quoting [[Wikipedia:No personal Attacks]], you are obligated to folow these. There is no excuse for such attacks on other contributors. Do not make them. Please be civil. The article is disputed in its current state. We do not do votes on every disputed article. [[Creationism]] is there even though majority perhaps agrees its a complete load of crap. Wikipedia requires facts, this is not your research paper, you cannot and shouldnot try to prove the Armenian Genocide here, it is disputed, something you do not acknowlege. Admins do not interfere with articles, any admin will tell you constantly reverting the article is not the right way. I was reminded of this flaw by steriotek, rather harsh I think given he is not any better than I am as reverting goes. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::OK! Fine, show me where are those “personal attacks” in my post above, if you ain't able to do so, I will conclude that you are trying to change the subject. |
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::Now coming to your text. First you write: “Wikipedia requires facts,” and then, “you cannot and shouldnot try to prove the Armenian Genocide here, ...” Let me understand well, Wikipedia requires facts, but I should NOT bring those facts here. Who are you trying to kid? You've been trying to maintain this type of “logic” which is just a paradox. |
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::So the genocide is disputed, but Coolcat hasn't read any works about it. But of course if we only read the Turkish press like you do, we will conclude just that. This place is not a Turkish government founded encyclopedia. Sorry. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 16:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== a real article on the Armenian Genocide == |
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I think that this article needs to look a whole lot more like [http://www.wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=Armenian_Genocide this article] on the Armenian Genocide which, you'll note, is a fork of an earlier version of this article. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 09:40, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC) |
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:I think I disagree. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 10:20, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Childish Wars of Words == |
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I visited the discussion page to read some interesting views. All I see are childish comments between a few users more about THEIR credibility than the credibility of the information presented. All you do here is create a garbage of information. I have to lower myself to say this but I think it is the only way it will make sense to you: Get a life. |
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Each of you present your views and facts and let others make their own judgements. You have to assume that the individuals reading these are interested in the subject and will try to get the best of what they read. - (unsigned) Rotband |
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: Sorry, I'll try to give my view of situation: after reading of article and discussions (for this and several related discussions it took several days), I tried to search truth by myself. I tried to find some information using Google, encyclopedias, etc., and I found that even most Turkian sources do not deny that there were mass killings of armenians, and their point of view mainly differs in definition of who was guilty: turkians try to blame mostly the war and partially both sides - turkish and armenian. But what we see in this _discussion_: it is maybe the worst possible case when wikipedia can not give you straight and clear article. (try to look from POV of commercial encyclopedies: "look at this - wikipedia ish bullsh..., instead of giving clear data they are fighting between themselves and profanating all the subject!"). Maybe my opinion is wrong, sorry, I simply trying to give you my POV to _this_ discussion: one person, only one single person, by trying to POV-ize topic in the wrong (profanic) way, and only because of he even hasn't tried to read at least something about topic, makes writing of article almost impossible. It is a shame. I think users who write articles should have better possibilities than teaching ignoramus. --[[User:213.197.137.20|213.197.137.20]] 18:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:: An insight is always welcome, something I have been saying forever. The dispute revolves around (mostly the war and partially both sides vs Genocide). That part is disputed agree with it or not. This is [[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] signing off. - 10:14, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Cite from [[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] text - when [[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] suggested him to read some literature about the subject, [[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] paraphrased: ''Read this book and you will have my POV and then youll edit this article my way is what you suggest?''. I think, here is nothing more to say. --[[User:Gvorl|Gvorl]] 11:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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...So if you take a step back, try to imagine a genocide victim being subjected to this day after day, year after year, perhaps you'd appreciate |
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better some of the anger and impatience that has been displayed. Again, I tell you GO TO THE LIBRARY - read Survivors, read Hovanissian and Dadrian, |
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I even encourage you to read books like Fiegl's Myth of Terror. After that, you can come back and edit the article like a pro. But before that, |
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you really need to take it a bit easy... --RaffiKojian 03:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I am merely suggesting, If I share your views you will loose the only objective party. I know more about the topic than I appear, I was tring to hear what you have to say, so I can determine my bias. Was a failed strategy I admit. You declare that I must accept genocide, should you not want an objective view? Otherwise isnt this bias? --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 02:38, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::What failed strategy? What you've did is a misrepresentation. And are you claiming here that you are objective? [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Like I said, armenians have their reasons for their beliefs so does the turks. A uniformal truth should satisfy both. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 02:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::There is no such thing as "satifying" as rules in Wikipedia. An article should be neutral, that is all. To build new rules. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:25, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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: So far I haven't seen indications of your knowledge. When your oponents ask you for facts you say that you do not need those. You are asking for provements from others but your disagreements are not not based on any facts or findings. It seems that you want that Fadix and others argument that there was no genocide and similar things. But such behaviour is simply trolling of al the discussion. --[[User:Gvorl|Gvorl]] 05:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Agree (with Gvorl) - as anyone who truly understands what occured in 1915 - and before and after - in regards to this issue could never (honestly) say the things that Coolcat does. Obvioulsly most Turks and Armenians are not going to agree on the issue at this point in time. They do nto agree out in the real world - how can you expect that they will agree here? Obvioulsy - you will never convince any Armenian (nor any proper knowledgable historian) that there was no Genocide. (and we have proved that there was by a very clear margin - so I can see no real denbate on this issue) - but - I can neither see most Turks (or Coolcat) every admitting to Genocide. So where does this leave us by the seemingly/alleged unbiased Coolcat approach? With no solution - with no Armenian Genocide article - curious isnt't it? --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 18:09, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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I agree with everybody but Cool Cat that Cool Cat has contributed nothing to this article at all. Has not shown any knowledge of the subject. Has inserted opinion which he says he has not formed yet. Has stated he was lying that he has little real knowlege of the subject (without proving any such thing). Twisted my words when I say he should read up on the subject. So all he has done (assuming it is a he - but he prefers to remain completely anonymous) is create a MASSIVE obstacle to progress on the article, waste all of our time, and make a joke of wikipedia. Can we just ignore him? I mean, if someone wants to argue facts here, that is one thing, but this whole "You have to convince me the Turks had a logical, sane reason to wipe out the Armenians or I can't believe it was genocide" at this point in the conversation is so ridiculous, we can't actually be expected to respond. It is almost like someone is playing a joke on us all. So again I ask. Can we just ignore this thing called Cool Cat until he possibly has something meaningful to contribute? --[[User:RaffiKojian|RaffiKojian]] 04:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:: I have already proposed this myself, there is no point one to waste his time with Coolcat. The guy has even loaded my talk page. I won't even read him anymore. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 18:05, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: ''' Yeah, yeah, yeah! Everybody will be happy if you can get rid of coolcat. Coolcat is not knowledgable, I am vandal, every edit we make is immediately deleted by one of you. But look at the following, nobody dares to remove this edit: "The Ottoman government wanted to expand their empire and conquer Arabia. However, sitting between the Ottoman Empire and Arabia was Armenia. Ottoman officials surmised that the best way to reach Arabia was by removing the Armenian "problem." It is said that this genocide greatly inspired Hitler in his attempted extermination of the Jews, Gypsies, and other peoples." How knowledgeable! How true! But no, you don't remove this, because it doesn't destroy the picture you're trying to draw. It just adds to it, so you don't care how ignorant it is, you don't care how ill-intentioned that edit is. Please be honest, respect yourself, and put a disclaimer on the top of the page stating that this is the propaganda page of Armenian diaspora, which literally is true if you look at the current shape of the article (everything that might mean that there might be alternative explanations and/or facts were systematically deleted since I have last checked this article). [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 16:05, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: Sorry, I was away these days and not had much time. I was surprised to learn this change as well, I don't remember this thing being there when I last edited the article. Who added it? I agree it is a mistake and should not be there. Delete it if you want. |
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:::: I think that after the deletion, from there on, every adding of materials should be discussed in the talk page so we do not end up in such situations. I apologize. As for Coolcat, I will not comment, the guy left a message on my talk page that I stillam not able to know what it means. Just wondering. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 00:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Hm - I don't dispute that this "arabia" claim is in error - the exact quotes from the CUP leaders directly mention the Central Asian Turkick lands - even to include the Uigyurs who live in China. However this motivation was only one of many for "removing the Armenian problem" - and hard to prove if the average Turk who participated or took advantage of the slaughter of Armenians was truly motivated by such. As for the Armenian Genocide being an inspiration for Hitler - well there are several sources of his mentioning such as well as a great deal of circumstansial evidence considering the role of his advisor Count Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter - German Vice-Consul at Erzerum (who by the way had this to say about the matter): |
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"I have conducted a series of conversations with competent and influential Turkish personalities, and these are my impressions: A large segment of the Ittihadist Young Turk party maintains the viewpoint that the Turkish empire should be based only on the principle of Islam and Pan-Turkism. Its non-Muslim and non-Turkish inhabitants should either be forcibly islamized, or otherwise they ought to be DESTROYED. These gentlemen believe that the time is propitious for the realization of this PLAN. The first item on this agenda concerns the LIQUIDATION OF THE ARMENIANS. Ittihad will dangle before the eyes of the allies the specter of an ALLEGED REVOLUTION prepared by the Armenian Dashnak party. Moreover. local incidents of social unrest and acts of Armenian self-defense will deliberately be provoked and inflated and will be used as pretexts to effect the deportations. Once en route however, the convoys will be attacked and EXTERMINATED by brigands, and in part by gendarmes, who will be instigated for that purpose by Ittihad." |
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curious isn't it - that he was so perceptive - that the CUP had such a plan...and that so much of what the Nazi's attempted some 30 years later bore so much similarilty....--[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 16:56, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::: Curious, isn't it? "that he was so perceptive"... good point! Thank you. |
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::: About the Arabia thing, yes yes, it was just a "small error". Apparently, that's what you teach your kids. And the knowledgeable, Turk-friend THOTH corrects the error with their wisdom: "Turks were willing to invade China". How elegant... Admirable. We are talking about the Turks by the way, who had "control" of Arabia at the time, that they were planning to "conquer". They weren't trying to "conquer" Arabia, they were trying to "defend" Arabia, and nobody who went to Yemen came back. We are talking about the Turks, by the way, who were fighting against an army of tens of nations brought in by British Empire in Dardanelles. They didn't have any technology to fight against the modern army of allies, and they were defending only with their lives (There were also Armenians among these heros, by the way). It was a miracle that the allies couldn't capture Dardanelles. These were the conditions. We are talking about Turks, whose thousands of soldiers - who were supposed to defend Eastern Anatolia against Russians and Armenian militia- were frozen to death in [[Sarikamis]], because they had summer clothes. And these Turks were planning to "expand" to China? And these Turks are accused of not providing reliable escort for Armenians "intentionally"? "Errors" my friend, these are small "errors", just confusing Arabia with China. Continue, my friend, continue to fill in the article with your small "friendly" errors, and censor anything that might mean something that you don't want to be understood, and shamelessly label them "vandalism". That's all you need, because you know that you are not speaking the truth. [[User:Cezveci|Cezveci]] 04:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:::: I will ignore the first part of your post, you can go and edit the article and correct that mistake, if someone revert it back, I will revert to your correction. What I will answer is your claim about Sarikamis. I don't know what they teach you in your text books, but you have the history of Sarikamis all wrong. The region is near Kars, and was situated about what was in Russian Caucasus, what happened is that early during the war the Ottoman tried to invade Russia, and from failures the amassed men on that region while the Russians as a counter measure were planning to take Erzerum from the same front. What happened at Sarikamis had absolutely nothing to do with any Armenian militia, those deaths were the result of Envers megalomanic Pan-Turanist attempt soon during the war that ended up to be a complete failure which gave the Russians the pretext to invade later. Enver has sent thousands and thousands of men to open the front, he didn't cared of their lives in Winter, to die frozen, unprepared, and without sufficient provision. The only Armenians serving at that time against the Ottoman were Russian Armenians that have decided to block the front that if broken would give access to Russian Armenia to the Ottoman army. In fact, Enver was so obsessed about his plan, as the minister of the war, he even has gone on the front to fight, and it is said that it was an Ottoman Armenian brigade that saved his life... he as an answer in February 1915 thanked the Armenians for their loyalty, when on the other hand he was preparing their destruction. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:28, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Don't preach to me. I know the history - a good deal better then you I think. I have not written this article. It is much too soft IMO - among other shortfalls. My having many Turkish friends has no bearing on presenting the truth here. You have spent the better part of a paragraph saying nothing and putting words in my mouth. Your depiction of Turkey as the victim is very typical. Funny that it was the Turks who began the aggression. The British would have been most happy - and made many attempts to convince the Turks to not go with the Germans - yes it was the greed of Enver and the others that won out in the end - the idea that the Germans would win and thus The Ottoman Empire could once again be great and vast (but this time Turkish and not multi-cultural). Its only lucky that the Brits and French and even the Russians had their hands full elsewhere and with other things. Its no coincidence theat Lennin was bankrolled by the Germans. And as valiant as the Ottoman armies did fight at times - these were clearly just skirmishes in the grand scheme of things. There was no possibility that the Ottoman Empire would come out of this one much of anything like it came into it (the CUP were stupid fools - and it is they who are to blame for not only the terrible Armenian suffering but the Turkish suffering as well...and you are a [fooled] fool if you believe otherwise) - and Ataturk and the Turks are certainly deserving of much credit for salvaging and leveraging what they got - Anatolia - free of all capitulations....of course without the Armenians - and that was certainly by design (but your nation suffers still - much - from this shortsightedness). So squirm away - you cannot use your critique of a poorly written article to supress the truth. Yeah funny - the Turks being so weak - yet no caravan was ever intercepted - no rescue ever made - some Armenian resistance eh? --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 07:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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:I contributed nothing because my contributions were immidiately reverted. One thing you so knowlegable people dont recognise is you have 0 tolerance to any view aside from your own. I am not sure you are as knowlegable as you think... I think you are quoting someone else. You talk about the truth, your truth. So its a lie if it disagrees with you? Fadix for instance declared Tony as "revisionist" he declared me Turkish, they post how horible I am on every article I go. They bother me in various ways. I do not understand why they are going to great lengths to remove my presence from wikipedia. In the end they win. They can celebrate and do what ever the hell they want with wikipedia, I have no reason to stay here if hard working people like me are allowed to be bullied like this. Discussion here is mostly how horible the other party is. People are very confortable in placing information without sources, "go read books dude" attitude is comendable. Your(plural) case is either extremely weak or you(plural) are very ignorant. I asked you to proove it. All I got is insults. All I still get is insults and personal attacks. Users do not even acknowlege what personal attacks are, or what good wikiquette is all about. It is the very foundation of wikipedia. I cant tolerate this constant bulliying I recieved just because I asked sources and neutrality on this article. Commendable, keep destroying wikipedia community for your petty genocide thesis. You(plural) live in the dilusional past I guess, or else instead of annoying me you would provide me evidence. There is no doubt people died, no one is denying that. I cannot get a straight answer to something as simple as: "what was the motive of turks when they requested Armenians to move"?, "why?". You talk about historical events, I see them as mere "stories" or "legends", I do not see a basis. Isolated events do not necesarily affect the big picture. Hand picking minor incidents, exagarating them and pasting it together is not how proper history is practiced. However it is fanatc. All you suggest is "go away". I never heard of a "stay". This brriliant strategy hopefully will last forever and you will save the world from retarded revisionists, whatever that means, like me. --[[User:Coolcat|Cool Cat]] [[User talk:Coolcat|<sup>My Talk</sup>]] 16:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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::I don't remember calling Tony a revisionist, please enlighten me. As for you being Turkish, this is not an attack, you have admitted it yourself, I don't see what is wrong saying what you have admitted. Now coming to your point, now I understand what the words “you win” meant. So finally this was really a game for you. Do you really believe that this was about winning and loosing for me? Why is everything a game for you? The ranking idea, and now this. I told you, I was ready to provide you references, now please go back in the history of this entry, and reread what went wrong, and why I answered you the way I have answered. You did not ask me to “prove” you anything at first... you edited the entry again and again without even justifying it on the talk page, while I had justified my edits. You did everything to get people against you... and when you then asked for “prove” you then retracted claiming it was not about proving, and then again it was about proving. Reread Wikipedia policy please another time. I have accepted that Wikipedia is not about the truth, but positions... that is all, of course you don't have the same problem at the Karabagh entry where Tabib kicked me out accusing me of hidden agenda after my FIRST post there quoting something? Of course you had nothing to say about those things when you wanted to moderate it right? Go read the entry and compare it with this one. While this one has a tone of “according to this”... the Karabagh entry is “this is what...” Or now, the Khojali genocide entry, which under the guise of neutrality Tabib has made of it “Khojali massacre” but claimed it was also called Khojali genocide. Tell me Coolcat(I wanted to place the Mr. Here, but apparently you don't like to be referred as Mr.), how would the Armenian cases, the second most studied cases doesn't worth the term genocide for over a million victim, the destruction of the Armenian community from a place they have lived for 3 millennium doesn't “worth” the term genocide, but an incident that cost the live of over a hundred civilian can be qualified as genocide and considered as “also referred as the Khojali Genocide,” when outside of the Turkish and Azeris circle, trying to turn the Armenian genocide to derision, there is not a SINGLE non-Turkish non-Azeris specialist, or any single international body that call it such. While I have accepted in the range of Armenian victim, to include the 300,000, when even many and many Turkish historians that deny the genocide provide a higher figure. But of course you have nothing to say about the “Khojali Genocide” entry 400-1000 range, when the first official Azeris government figures were from 100 to about 180. |
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::Coolcat, as a nationalist Turk, you still think that this is a conspiration against Turkey. You can't be further from the truth. The most incriminating evidences against the Ittihadist leaders came from a Turkish tribunal, NOT Armenian or Western. A tribunal, who's decision was accepted by the man you consider as your father, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. You can debate on everything with me, regarding any other topics and criticize Armenians “behaviors,” and I will condemn whomever did wrongdoing, that they are Armenians, Turkish, Chinese, Martian etc. As I said in the past, I judge people in daily and personal basis, and not based on their social construct(ethnicity etc.). But, sorry about the genocide, the Armenians won't give away the recognition. It destroyed the Armenian presence from their 3 millennium homeland, it dispersed the survivors in any corner of the world, alienated from a nation. I was born in Lebanon, and live in Canada, the typical story of a Diasporan Armenian, who's grandparents were orphaned, having witnessed the destruction of their entire family. So tell me Coolcat, which nation is mine? Canada? Lebanon? Anatolia? Armenia? ... |
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::You have no clue, and believe me here, you have no clue of what the hell you are denying. [[User:Fadix|Fadix]] 01:13, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Coolcat - I have no concern if you stay - but I am concerned - as I have well expressed and explained - that your approach is not at all condusive to reaching the truth in this case. I agree that the current article is severly lacking and is somewhat unfocused. I wish I had the time to write the whole thing but I really don't - at least not in quick order. I am hopng to have my proposed outline available today or tomorow however. I want to comment though that your characterizing the known historical and (mulitply independently coroborated and objective) eyewitness record as "stories" and "legends" only bespeaks your ignornace (or agenda). Anyway - I can and will very much so - adress this issue of why the Turks/CUP undertook genocide. --[[User:THOTH|THOTH]] 16:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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== Comment removed from article without been adressed == |
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Legislation resulted in California preventing chairs being established by foreign governments with conditions on them (double check exact law!!!!!!). -unsigned |
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== I think that this may prove illustrative of my appreciation of the legitimate Turkish perspecive on this issue == |
== I think that this may prove illustrative of my appreciation of the legitimate Turkish perspecive on this issue == |
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Fadix Analysis: Fadix Analysis (575 kb)
I think that this may prove illustrative of my appreciation of the legitimate Turkish perspecive on this issue
I posted this in an Armenina forum today in response to some Armenians claiming that we need to demand more of the Turks etc...I just want to give some folks here an understanding of some of the level of appreciation I have for the Turkish position and (some of the reasons) why Turks are reluctant to admit/acknowledge genocide...
OK let me lay it all out....
XXXX - I understand how you feel - but unfortunately your approach will get us nowhere IMO. One reason that it is so easy for the Turkish government to convince its people that we are the aggressors - the terrible ones and that they are the victims is the attitudes and expressions of many Armenians (of the Diaspora). The Turks see this aggressive stance on the part of Armenians and immediately recoil - and if you were in their shoes you would too.
I'm not saying that you and other Armenians are wrong and that Turks (Turkish Government in particular) are/is right - but its a matter of what is constructive and what will only lead to the predictable result - rejection. And I'm not necessarily saying that we Armenians have to care (about the Turks/what Turks think & feel) - but I am one who sees the Turks as victims too - in a very real sense - and not of Armenians (don't be absurd) - but of the circumstances surrounding the fall of their Empire and culture and the resultant wars and poverty that the Ottoman Empire and that its citizens (Turks, Armenians and others) were plunged into. And this is why they will continue to deny that they could have done such a wrong.
You have to understand that like us - the Turks see first and foremost their own suffering and identify with their own plight. And the collapse of the Ottoman Empire - the rise of nationalism in the outlying districts (that led to independence [Greece/Balkans/various Arab lands] and the expulsion of ethnic Turks and [from Europe] other Muslims) as well as external campaigns against the Turks - primarily by Russia - but also by the other opportunistic European colonial powers of the day (much of WWI - particularly in the Middle East - was a big colonial land grab at the expense of the Ottoman Empire - they were salivating for years at this prospect...) - this all made for a situation of extreme xenophobia and distrust of others during this period - and resulted in extreme hardship for a great many Turks (and this is a fundamental truth that we often/most always ignore and fail to understand).
From this there was revolution - and the CUP/Young Turks were at first a promise of modernity, reform and escape from the extreme corruption and arbitrariness of the Sultan that plagued the Ottoman Empire in its later days and kept it stagnant while the rest of Europe was moving foreword and liberalizing (there was to be rule of law - necessarily for civil rights and for business prosperity). This hope was (initially) well shared by Armenians as well as Turks and all other peoples of the Empire. Unfortunately - as we have seen - and as is typical in revolutions - particularly ones with such great societal upheaval and with such tremendous outside pressures as well - those who rose to power were not at all liberal or benevolent but were bent on acquiring and maintaining power and were also determined to rid themselves of all rivals and potential competition - thus the early campaign against the very Armenian revolutionary parties that had supported them and shared their supposed goals for liberalization and equality for peoples of the Empire.
The rest is as we say history - as these same CUP leaders deluded themselves into thinking that (by allying with Germany in WWI and by removing the "foreign"/destabilizing elements within their population) they could reclaim and expand the glory of the Ottoman Empire - but this time (Eastward) for Turks and for Turks alone. But in doing so they plunged the nation into further despair. Their attempts to centralize the economy (and fund much of this through theft of Armenian property and industry) was a complete failure. This and the various impacts of the war (additional refuges and shortages) added to the suffering of the people - and the uprooting/elimination of Armenians led to tremendous food shortages and collapse of industry and commerce.
And remember they blamed the Armenians for their defeats and for all of the problems of the Empire (scapegoating) and used Turkish/Muslim jealousy of their wealth and association with their (refugee Turks) Orthodox tormentors (from the Balkans and from Russia) as a means to rally the people against the Armenians and for Armenians (and eventually Greeks) to take the blame. And during the war they saw themselves (somewhat correctly) as besieged from all sides by colonial powers that just wanted to carve up their empire and leave them with nothing (and they saw and see the Armenian question strictly within the confines of this paradigm as an integral part of such (thus the charge of treason - that we abandoned them while they were down etc - you should notice how the Turks always reference how we were and are being used by the Europeans etc) - anyway - so after WWI the Nationalist/Kemalist rise from the ashes - and it truly was a glorious thing in the eyes of the Turks - as it should be seen - but again everything falls into place with Ataturk initiating a new Turkish consciousness that is predicated on lack of any recognition of minority status. The (remaining/unmassacred) Greeks are expelled (forcibly transferred for Turks from Greece/Balkans after the failed Greek land grab that was encouraged - but then ultimately not materially supported - by the Brits/Europeans) - and all of this further led to this Turkish mindset of Armenians (and Greeks) as traitors within - that what was done was justified - and that (interestingly) it wasn't really so bad as we say (and in fact they valiantly did their part to protect us - and so on and so forth) - that this (Genocide charge) is/was all part of some anti-Turkish propaganda - and that by the way - most everything we claim was done to us they now claim was done to them by us - and again wartime propaganda and rallying and making excuse to cover what was being done all play into supporting these notions as truth in the Turkish mindset - as many years (decades) of anti-Armenian hatred and resentment had been building up on the part of the Turks and this was further enflamed by the refugees returning from other parts of the Empire with stories of Orthodox Christian brutalities against them - and these people were settled amongst the Armenians.
So this is the problem. How can we really expect the Turks - with all of this baggage - and no real incentive to dump it (much disincentive in fact) - how can we expect them to even remotely accept our claims of Genocide? (as we stridently scream accusations at them?) All the dice are loaded for them to see it totally differently and to dismiss all of our (the) facts as manufactured/invented (after all they do it all the time - so they expect others do so as well!) - etc. And we never acknowledge their suffering or conditions either - not at all (of course how could they really expect us to - but no one does - and that’s the point....)
This is why the confrontational approach will never work. --THOTH 17:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, from this point of view I can understand all the things which are going here. It seems that both nations was victims o the same regime of Young Turks party. One - because of genocide, other - because of total brainwashing, economic fall, etc (Remember germans? Actually, most of them were victims of nazi regime too). This kind of situations is very common after revolutionary restructuring of empires. You can remember wars in former Tsar Russian Empire, former African colonies, Yugoslavia or USSR after changes of those regimes... So, maybe it would help in this discussion other point of view - historical perspective where genocide can be viewed from the different point? I understand that it is difficult, because of topic is really sensitive, but may be it is worth to try? --Gvorl 18:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Thoth, thank you. May this sane attitude transpire into the article. --House of Shin 18:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have always had what I contend is a holistic approach to this issue. So much so that I often get attacked from both sides! I've had my approach be termed blasphemous by a Turkish view apologist speaking as if from an Armenian perspective (if that makes sense - anyway, I think he was giving me a complement...). Still - there are basic facts - and these facts will not paint the Young Turk regiem in a very good light - regardless. There is nothing I can do to change the reality or truth of this. That being said there are a very many related issues that warrent discussion and revelation (from all sides) in order for readers to properly understand the circumstances and events of this genocide.
And again - I must stress - there are very few individuals with as much knowledge and insight on this matter as Fadix. I think he has been wrongly portryed as (unreasonably) partisan because of some of the extreme denialist viewpoints he has had to deal with. I think he can be very balanced if allowed - perhaps even more so then I. Additionally, I do appreciate that there are very legitimate Turkish viewpoints and information that are not ussually stressed or mentioned by Armenians discussing this issue and I would welcome them as they are relevant and are supported. Knowing what I do know (I am quite aware of and at least fairly well read concerning what is available in English on this matter - from the Turkish perspective and otherwise) - I still fail to see where the fundemental premiss that is held by Armenians and most all legitimate genocide scholars and historians - of this being a genocide - in every sense of the word - that this premiss can be seriously challenged. I do think, however, that discussion of these events and surrounding events and circumstances need not be monolithic (or single POV) in nature. --THOTH 19:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I haven't experienced a hatred towards Armeinans when I were there. I think Fadix is fanatical with his beliefs, you have a cooler aproach and a civil attitude. You are encouraged to respond to my posts below, and PLEASE stick to History rather than an analysis of Turkeys denial. This is a History discussion not political. --Cool Cat My Talk 02:33, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the Armenian Genocide as such from the perspective of scholars and the historical record
Thanks to Fadix for posting this on another site - I saw it and felt it needed to be posted here for the record - (BTW - still working - as I can on a proposed outline for this section - you will see why it is taking me so long - as it is a bit more then an outline and I am trying to be comprehensive)
INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS
President: Robert Melson (USA) Vice-President: Israel Charny (Israel) Secretary-Treasurer: Steven Jacobs (USA)
Respond to: Robert Melson, Professor of Political Science Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907 USA
April 6, 2005
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
TC Easbakanlik
Bakanlikir
Ankara, Turkey
FAX: 90 312 417 0476
Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:
We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.
We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.
The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.
The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.
We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.
We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.
We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.
Sincerely,
[signed] Robert Melson Professor of Political Science President, International Association of Genocide Scholars
[signed] Israel Charny Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide
[signed] Peter Balakian Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities Colgate University
Unsigned - THOTH
- So a letter from scholars asuming its authentic prooves genocide? --Cool Cat My Talk 00:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I am just impressed as newer and newer accounts are formed supporting the case. You guys have good comunication. I am not trying to disprove the genocide, nor prove it. Instead of talking diplomacy, start talking history, thanks. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If you however want to talk abut diplomacy, create a Armenian-Turkish relations article. Apperantly scholas worldwide accept this, dont care of the factuality of that. However discussion is not relly about genocide here. Its about how horible people who want to discuss it. Average post is a page, rambling. --Cool Cat My Talk 00:15, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
...
- I personaly am more and more reluctant to believe State Sponsored Genocide was not the case. The more you insisst that is the case without basis the less likely I will believe that. I am even less likely to believe if you declare me Turkish/Revisionsit or anything else. I need to see the analogy of your cases... Which historian said it, based on what material, is there an alternative interpretation(s)? Is the alternative interpretation(s) significant? --Cool Cat My Talk 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Any material that had been added that remotley suggests otherwise has been removed. Spelling corrections were declared POV even though the actual change was superficial. This clearly shows posts by users are not read. You can have hundereds of people here, I dont quite care. In the end the article will be NPOV, like it or not. See creationism? How many scientists believe in this you think? Why is the article informative instead of "how false" the idea is. You are required to tolerate other peoples rules if you want to be a part of wikipedia. You should all the time discuss the article not the other party as explained in Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks. I never declared the pro-genocide view as "stupid" or "unacceptable". You do not have the god given right to determine facts and what is POV. All of you combined is one side of the story. It is not the only side. A significant group of people dismisses genocide thesis. I dont expect you to accept their beliefs, however you are required to live with it. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Everyone has their views regarding topics. Honestly, I was indifferent. I have a good understanding what Turks "feel" as I lived among them for quite a while. Knowing the reasonable sounding Turkish argument, I was going to make people present their cases. I commented out material that I thought would conflict with the Turkish Argument as that is a sign of POV/persective. I was going to rewrite some so it wasnt a blunt accusations. While genocide thesis may be true/false, that really is irrelevant when we are talking about it here. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view will tell you that presenting multiple views adds diversity. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The vital component: good research
- Many POV battles would be made much easier through the practice of good research. Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without promoting a view. The trick is to find the best and most reputable source you can. Try the library for good books and journal articles, and look for the most reliable online resources. A little bit of ground work can save a lot of time in trying to justify a point later.
- The only other important consideration is that while a fact is not POV in and of itself, adding facts, no matter how well cited, from only one side of a debate is a POV problem. So work for balance. Find facts that aren't from one side or the other and cite the source.
- Finalising my words: I do not hate you. I am not ignorant. I am not your pet. I am focusing on this article only. I shall present my case below regarding the current state of the article. I will not edit the article itself. So far i have suggested material to be discussed, I wanted to hear what others thought first, I ended up been forced to deal with insults.
Coolcats suggestions
- These are my suggestions. You are welcome to respond to them, you can tell me why the change is in approporate/inapproporate. You are welcome to suggest alternatives. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If you are going to be sarcastic and/or tell me how horible of a person I am, don't. This is a civilised request. You are not obligaded to follow it, I do wish you respect these conditions. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I will be basing all my statements based on this version: "12:59, 20 Apr 2005 House of Shin (→Recent history — timeline -Ministry of Education recommendations of 14/04/2003 (LDH))"
- If I edit the article alone it had been reverted without beeing read so I gave up on that idea, also as I am not allowed to edit wikipedia I also gave up on my atempt to work on other articles as well as they have been constantly removed. --Cool Cat My Talk 01:38, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lead
- The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian [[Holocaust (disambiguation)|Holocaust]] or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations and related deaths of Armenians during the government of the Young Turks in 1915–1917.
- Several facts in connection with the Armenian Genocide are currently causing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. There is an agreement about the occurence of the event, but Turkey denies that it was a , hence genocide.
- Most Armenian, many Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Western sources maintain that there were at least one million deaths. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second-most studied case of what is called genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust.
- The term Armenian Genocide (also refered as the Armenian [[Holocaust]] or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations/relocations and related deaths of Armenians as a consequence during the government of the Young Turks between 1915 and 1917.
- The event is currently a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. Presure on Turkey by parts of international community to recognise it as a "state-sponsored extermination plan" rather than her standing "a consequence of armed conflict, civil war, disease, and famine during the turmoil of World War I" is increasing as the list of countries that have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide grows.
- Scholars worldwide agree that the event did happen. However there is a lack of agreement on various details. The most significant disagreement is it's classification as genocide. While the majority agrees a state-sponsored extermination plan was the case, a considerable minority disputes this with various reasons. There is also a lack of concensius on the death toll. Numbers range between 200,000 to 1,600,000 or posibaly more, however archives do not agree with each other.
- Please post comments below here:
- Can someone please tell me who is "comparing this with the Holocaust? Is this a personal opinion? I dont think anything can compare with the Holocaust. --Cool Cat My Talk 02:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Who claims this is the second most studied genocide case? Is this a personal opinion? --Cool Cat My Talk 02:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Really moving on...
Well the discussion has come along recently.
Now I also don't know who added the Arabia thing, but it is interesting that someone would rather complain about it repeatedly than remove it once. Let me be the THIRD person to say, TAKE IT OUT!! It is completely wrong.
Next, let me recomend someone archive almost all of this page again, and we start with a fresh one.
I agree with Fadix that a change (for now at least) should be presented here, and wait at least a couple of days for useful comment. If there seems to be no comments or disagreement, it could be implemented. If there is, then we have to decide how these things get handled.
By the way, I am attending the huge international genocide conference (April 20-21) and it is excellent. 3 Israelis, 3 Turks (including one Turkish Armenian, but not including a Turk whose trial starts today for speaking the truth), lots of other international scholars, the well known Hovanissian, Dadrian, Akcam, Miller, Yehuda Bauer, Israel Charny, Juan Mendez, etc. There was mention of the NY Times open letter that was being published and which our Turkish contributer here poopooed. --RaffiKojian 02:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That is a discussion on armenian genocide, any of your comments refering to me were removed in accordance with wikipedia:No Personal Attacks, Archiving in progress... --Cool Cat My Talk 02:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)