Talk:Armenian genocide

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I think that this may prove illustrative of my appreciation of the legitimate Turkish perspecive on this issue

I posted this in an Armenina forum today in response to some Armenians claiming that we need to demand more of the Turks etc...I just want to give some folks here an understanding of some of the level of appreciation I have for the Turkish position and (some of the reasons) why Turks are reluctant to admit/acknowledge genocide...

OK let me lay it all out....

XXXX - I understand how you feel - but unfortunately your approach will get us nowhere IMO. One reason that it is so easy for the Turkish government to convince its people that we are the aggressors - the terrible ones and that they are the victims is the attitudes and expressions of many Armenians (of the Diaspora). The Turks see this aggressive stance on the part of Armenians and immediately recoil - and if you were in their shoes you would too.

I'm not saying that you and other Armenians are wrong and that Turks (Turkish Government in particular) are/is right - but its a matter of what is constructive and what will only lead to the predictable result - rejection. And I'm not necessarily saying that we Armenians have to care (about the Turks/what Turks think & feel) - but I am one who sees the Turks as victims too - in a very real sense - and not of Armenians (don't be absurd) - but of the circumstances surrounding the fall of their Empire and culture and the resultant wars and poverty that the Ottoman Empire and that its citizens (Turks, Armenians and others) were plunged into. And this is why they will continue to deny that they could have done such a wrong.

You have to understand that like us - the Turks see first and foremost their own suffering and identify with their own plight. And the collapse of the Ottoman Empire - the rise of nationalism in the outlying districts (that led to independence [Greece/Balkans/various Arab lands] and the expulsion of ethnic Turks and [from Europe] other Muslims) as well as external campaigns against the Turks - primarily by Russia - but also by the other opportunistic European colonial powers of the day (much of WWI - particularly in the Middle East - was a big colonial land grab at the expense of the Ottoman Empire - they were salivating for years at this prospect...) - this all made for a situation of extreme xenophobia and distrust of others during this period - and resulted in extreme hardship for a great many Turks (and this is a fundamental truth that we often/most always ignore and fail to understand).

From this there was revolution - and the CUP/Young Turks were at first a promise of modernity, reform and escape from the extreme corruption and arbitrariness of the Sultan that plagued the Ottoman Empire in its later days and kept it stagnant while the rest of Europe was moving foreword and liberalizing (there was to be rule of law - necessarily for civil rights and for business prosperity). This hope was (initially) well shared by Armenians as well as Turks and all other peoples of the Empire. Unfortunately - as we have seen - and as is typical in revolutions - particularly ones with such great societal upheaval and with such tremendous outside pressures as well - those who rose to power were not at all liberal or benevolent but were bent on acquiring and maintaining power and were also determined to rid themselves of all rivals and potential competition - thus the early campaign against the very Armenian revolutionary parties that had supported them and shared their supposed goals for liberalization and equality for peoples of the Empire.

The rest is as we say history - as these same CUP leaders deluded themselves into thinking that (by allying with Germany in WWI and by removing the "foreign"/destabilizing elements within their population) they could reclaim and expand the glory of the Ottoman Empire - but this time (Eastward) for Turks and for Turks alone. But in doing so they plunged the nation into further despair. Their attempts to centralize the economy (and fund much of this through theft of Armenian property and industry) was a complete failure. This and the various impacts of the war (additional refuges and shortages) added to the suffering of the people - and the uprooting/elimination of Armenians led to tremendous food shortages and collapse of industry and commerce.

And remember they blamed the Armenians for their defeats and for all of the problems of the Empire (scapegoating) and used Turkish/Muslim jealousy of their wealth and association with their (refugee Turks) Orthodox tormentors (from the Balkans and from Russia) as a means to rally the people against the Armenians and for Armenians (and eventually Greeks) to take the blame. And during the war they saw themselves (somewhat correctly) as besieged from all sides by colonial powers that just wanted to carve up their empire and leave them with nothing (and they saw and see the Armenian question strictly within the confines of this paradigm as an integral part of such (thus the charge of treason - that we abandoned them while they were down etc - you should notice how the Turks always reference how we were and are being used by the Europeans etc) - anyway - so after WWI the Nationalist/Kemalist rise from the ashes - and it truly was a glorious thing in the eyes of the Turks - as it should be seen - but again everything falls into place with Ataturk initiating a new Turkish consciousness that is predicated on lack of any recognition of minority status. The (remaining/unmassacred) Greeks are expelled (forcibly transferred for Turks from Greece/Balkans after the failed Greek land grab that was encouraged - but then ultimately not materially supported - by the Brits/Europeans) - and all of this further led to this Turkish mindset of Armenians (and Greeks) as traitors within - that what was done was justified - and that (interestingly) it wasn't really so bad as we say (and in fact they valiantly did their part to protect us - and so on and so forth) - that this (Genocide charge) is/was all part of some anti-Turkish propaganda - and that by the way - most everything we claim was done to us they now claim was done to them by us - and again wartime propaganda and rallying and making excuse to cover what was being done all play into supporting these notions as truth in the Turkish mindset - as many years (decades) of anti-Armenian hatred and resentment had been building up on the part of the Turks and this was further enflamed by the refugees returning from other parts of the Empire with stories of Orthodox Christian brutalities against them - and these people were settled amongst the Armenians.

So this is the problem. How can we really expect the Turks - with all of this baggage - and no real incentive to dump it (much disincentive in fact) - how can we expect them to even remotely accept our claims of Genocide? (as we stridently scream accusations at them?) All the dice are loaded for them to see it totally differently and to dismiss all of our (the) facts as manufactured/invented (after all they do it all the time - so they expect others do so as well!) - etc. And we never acknowledge their suffering or conditions either - not at all (of course how could they really expect us to - but no one does - and that’s the point....)

This is why the confrontational approach will never work. --THOTH 17:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, from this point of view I can understand all the things which are going here. It seems that both nations was victims o the same regime of Young Turks party. One - because of genocide, other - because of total brainwashing, economic fall, etc (Remember germans? Actually, most of them were victims of nazi regime too). This kind of situations is very common after revolutionary restructuring of empires. You can remember wars in former Tsar Russian Empire, former African colonies, Yugoslavia or USSR after changes of those regimes... So, maybe it would help in this discussion other point of view - historical perspective where genocide can be viewed from the different point? I understand that it is difficult, because of topic is really sensitive, but may be it is worth to try? --Gvorl 18:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thoth, thank you. May this sane attitude transpire into the article. --House of Shin 18:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have always had what I contend is a holistic approach to this issue. So much so that I often get attacked from both sides! I've had my approach be termed blasphemous by a Turkish view apologist speaking as if from an Armenian perspective (if that makes sense - anyway, I think he was giving me a complement...). Still - there are basic facts - and these facts will not paint the Young Turk regiem in a very good light - regardless. There is nothing I can do to change the reality or truth of this. That being said there are a very many related issues that warrent discussion and revelation (from all sides) in order for readers to properly understand the circumstances and events of this genocide.

And again - I must stress - there are very few individuals with as much knowledge and insight on this matter as Fadix. I think he has been wrongly portryed as (unreasonably) partisan because of some of the extreme denialist viewpoints he has had to deal with. I think he can be very balanced if allowed - perhaps even more so then I. Additionally, I do appreciate that there are very legitimate Turkish viewpoints and information that are not ussually stressed or mentioned by Armenians discussing this issue and I would welcome them as they are relevant and are supported. Knowing what I do know (I am quite aware of and at least fairly well read concerning what is available in English on this matter - from the Turkish perspective and otherwise) - I still fail to see where the fundemental premiss that is held by Armenians and most all legitimate genocide scholars and historians - of this being a genocide - in every sense of the word - that this premiss can be seriously challenged. I do think, however, that discussion of these events and surrounding events and circumstances need not be monolithic (or single POV) in nature. --THOTH 19:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I haven't experienced a hatred towards Armeinans when I were there. I think Fadix is fanatical with his beliefs, you have a cooler aproach and a civil attitude. You are encouraged to respond to my posts below, and PLEASE stick to History rather than an analysis of Turkeys denial. This is a History discussion not political. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:33, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Concerning the Armenian Genocide as such from the perspective of scholars and the historical record

Thanks to Fadix for posting this on another site - I saw it and felt it needed to be posted here for the record - (BTW - still working - as I can on a proposed outline for this section - you will see why it is taking me so long - as it is a bit more then an outline and I am trying to be comprehensive)

INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS

President: Robert Melson (USA) Vice-President: Israel Charny (Israel) Secretary-Treasurer: Steven Jacobs (USA)

Respond to: Robert Melson, Professor of Political Science Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907 USA

April 6, 2005

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan TC Easbakanlik Bakanlikir Ankara, Turkey FAX: 90 312 417 0476

Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:

We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an "impartial study by historians" concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:

On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. Another million fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.

The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey's wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.

The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.

2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world's foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.

4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the "incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide" and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.

5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.

6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas's Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.

We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide - how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.

We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called "scholars" work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide.

We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participant in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.

Sincerely,

[signed] Robert Melson Professor of Political Science President, International Association of Genocide Scholars

[signed] Israel Charny Vice President, International Association of Genocide Scholars Editor in Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide

[signed] Peter Balakian Donald M. and Constance H. Rebar Professor of the Humanities Colgate University

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Unsigned - THOTH

So a letter from scholars asuming its authentic prooves genocide? --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 00:10, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am just impressed as newer and newer accounts are formed supporting the case. You guys have good comunication. I am not trying to disprove the genocide, nor prove it. Instead of talking diplomacy, start talking history, thanks. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 00:12, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you however want to talk abut diplomacy, create a Armenian-Turkish relations article. Apperantly scholas worldwide accept this, dont care of the factuality of that. However discussion is not relly about genocide here. Its about how horible people who want to discuss it. Average post is a page, rambling. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 00:15, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

...

I personaly am more and more reluctant to believe State Sponsored Genocide was not the case. The more you insisst that is the case without basis the less likely I will believe that. I am even less likely to believe if you declare me Turkish/Revisionsit or anything else. I need to see the analogy of your cases... Which historian said it, based on what material, is there an alternative interpretation(s)? Is the alternative interpretation(s) significant? --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Any material that had been added that remotley suggests otherwise has been removed. Spelling corrections were declared POV even though the actual change was superficial. This clearly shows posts by users are not read. You can have hundereds of people here, I dont quite care. In the end the article will be NPOV, like it or not. See creationism? How many scientists believe in this you think? Why is the article informative instead of "how false" the idea is. You are required to tolerate other peoples rules if you want to be a part of wikipedia. You should all the time discuss the article not the other party as explained in Wikipedia:No Personal Attacks. I never declared the pro-genocide view as "stupid" or "unacceptable". You do not have the god given right to determine facts and what is POV. All of you combined is one side of the story. It is not the only side. A significant group of people dismisses genocide thesis. I dont expect you to accept their beliefs, however you are required to live with it. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Everyone has their views regarding topics. Honestly, I was indifferent. I have a good understanding what Turks "feel" as I lived among them for quite a while. Knowing the reasonable sounding Turkish argument, I was going to make people present their cases. I commented out material that I thought would conflict with the Turkish Argument as that is a sign of POV/persective. I was going to rewrite some so it wasnt a blunt accusations. While genocide thesis may be true/false, that really is irrelevant when we are talking about it here. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view will tell you that presenting multiple views adds diversity. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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The vital component: good research

Many POV battles would be made much easier through the practice of good research. Facts are not points of view in and of themselves. So an easy way to avoid making a statement that promotes a point of view is to find a reputable source for a fact and cite the source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without promoting a view. The trick is to find the best and most reputable source you can. Try the library for good books and journal articles, and look for the most reliable online resources. A little bit of ground work can save a lot of time in trying to justify a point later.

The only other important consideration is that while a fact is not POV in and of itself, adding facts, no matter how well cited, from only one side of a debate is a POV problem. So work for balance. Find facts that aren't from one side or the other and cite the source.

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Finalising my words: I do not hate you. I am not ignorant. I am not your pet. I am focusing on this article only. I shall present my case below regarding the current state of the article. I will not edit the article itself. So far i have suggested material to be discussed, I wanted to hear what others thought first, I ended up been forced to deal with insults.

Coolcats suggestions

• These are my suggestions. You are welcome to respond to them, you can tell me why the change is in approporate/inapproporate. You are welcome to suggest alternatives. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:06, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• If you are going to be sarcastic and/or tell me how horible of a person I am, don't. This is a civilised request. You are not obligaded to follow it, I do wish you respect these conditions. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:20, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• I will be basing all my statements based on this version: "12:59, 20 Apr 2005 House of Shin (→Recent history — timeline -Ministry of Education recommendations of 14/04/2003 (LDH))"
• If I edit the article alone it had been reverted without beeing read so I gave up on that idea, also as I am not allowed to edit wikipedia I also gave up on my atempt to work on other articles as well as they have been constantly removed. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 01:38, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lead

The term Armenian Genocide (also known as the Armenian [[Holocaust (disambiguation)|Holocaust]] or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations and related deaths of Armenians during the government of the Young Turks in 1915–1917.

Several facts in connection with the Armenian Genocide are currently causing dispute between parts of the international community and Turkey. There is an agreement about the occurence of the event, but Turkey denies that it was a , hence genocide.

Most Armenian, many Western, and some Turkish scholars believe that the Armenian deaths were the result of a state-sponsored extermination plan. Most Western sources maintain that there were at least one million deaths. What is referred to as the Armenian Genocide is the second-most studied case of what is called genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust.

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The term Armenian Genocide (also refered as the Armenian [[Holocaust]] or Armenian Massacre) refers to the deportations/relocations and related deaths of Armenians as a consequence during the government of the Young Turks between 1915 and 1917.

The event is currently a diplomatic dispute between Turkey and Armenia. Presure on Turkey by parts of international community to recognise it as a "state-sponsored extermination plan" rather than her standing "a consequence of armed conflict, civil war, disease, and famine during the turmoil of World War I" is increasing as the list of countries that have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide grows.

Scholars worldwide agree that the event did happen. However there is a lack of agreement on various details. The most significant disagreement is it's classification as genocide. While the majority agrees a state-sponsored extermination plan was the case, a considerable minority disputes this with various reasons. There is also a lack of concensius on the death toll. Numbers range between 200,000 to 1,600,000 or posibaly more, however archives do not agree with each other.

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• Please post comments below here:

Can someone please tell me who is "comparing this with the Holocaust? Is this a personal opinion? I dont think anything can compare with the Holocaust. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:13, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who claims this is the second most studied genocide case? Is this a personal opinion? --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Really moving on...

Well the discussion has come along recently.

Now I also don't know who added the Arabia thing, but it is interesting that someone would rather complain about it repeatedly than remove it once. Let me be the THIRD person to say, TAKE IT OUT!! It is completely wrong.

Next, let me recomend someone archive almost all of this page again, and we start with a fresh one.

I agree with Fadix that a change (for now at least) should be presented here, and wait at least a couple of days for useful comment. If there seems to be no comments or disagreement, it could be implemented. If there is, then we have to decide how these things get handled.

By the way, I am attending the huge international genocide conference (April 20-21) and it is excellent. 3 Israelis, 3 Turks (including one Turkish Armenian, but not including a Turk whose trial starts today for speaking the truth), lots of other international scholars, the well known Hovanissian, Dadrian, Akcam, Miller, Yehuda Bauer, Israel Charny, Juan Mendez, etc. There was mention of the NY Times open letter that was being published and which our Turkish contributer here poopooed. --RaffiKojian 02:30, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That is a discussion on armenian genocide, any of your comments refering to me were removed in accordance with wikipedia:No Personal Attacks, Archiving in progress... --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 02:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)