Talk:Apartheid/Archive 4

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Jewish settlement

I've removed "European Jews" as 18th century settlers of South Africa. No reason to give them special mention, any more than we distinguish between Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans when we mention the German settlement. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

--The Jews themselves view their settlement in S. Africa as distinct from the Dutch, English, etc. See Jewish Virtual Library

Located on the tip of the African continent, South Africa is famous for its diamond and gold mines. Cape Town, South Africa’s first city, was founded in 1652 by the Dutch to provide fresh produce and meats to the members of the Dutch East India Company, who were traveling between Europe and the Orient. In 1806, the colony switched hands and became part of the British Empire. Discoveries of gold and diamonds changed South Africa from an agricultural society to modern metropolis.

Jews have been a part of South Africa’s development from the very beginning. Portuguese Jewish cartographers and scientists contributed to Vasco Da Gama’s discovery of the Cape of Good Hope in 1497. A number of non-professing Jews were among the first settlers of Cape Town in 1652, despite restrictions against the immigration of non-Christians.

Religious freedom was granted by the Dutch colony in 1803 and guaranteed by the British in 1806. Among the first British settlers to come to Cape Town were 20 Jews. The first South African Jewish congregation was founded in 1841 in one of the homes of the new British settlers. Eight years later, the first synagogue, Tikvat Israel ("Hope of Israel" - referring to the Cape of Good Hope) was established in Cape Town and is still standing today.

Jews prospered during the apartheid era and were more educated than their white counterparts. More than 50 percent of the Jews were matriculated, compared to the average 23% in the total white population. Ten percent of the Jewish community had university degrees, compared to only 4% of the total white population. Jews were disproportionately represented in the commercial and financial sectors of society. The Jewish population peaked in the early 1970's reaching nearly 119,000 people. [1]

While Jews were present in the earliest settlement, their presence was not particularly significant in the early stages. They were tiny minorities for most of that time; they only really immigrated in significant numbers in the 20th century, and even then they never exceeded 3% of the European population of South Africa. One could also claim that Brazil and the United States were founded by Jews, based on tiny numbers of Jews (mostly marrano and Sephardi) that settled in those countries in the 17th and 18th centuries, but this would be a misleading view of their numbers, impact, and significance. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:02, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

The math is pretty clear. Even at their peak numbers -- 119,000 -- that represents around 2% of the European population of the time. They barely show up as a blip, demographically. So what if they were more educated etc.? Now, if the anon is trying to make a point that Jews were complicit in apartheid in South Africa, feel free to present evidence for that. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Jpgprdon: That's revisionist history. The Jews and Jewish employers were a part of the apartheid apparatus: "Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system.."

In fact, the one place Jews were particularly prominent was in the anti-apartheid movement (e.g. Helen Suzman, Joe Slovo, Ronnie Kasrils, Albie Sachs), so it would be much easier to make the opposite argument. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, there and the awesomely abusive diamond industry... --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Christians, in that case; they all converted to Anglicanism in the 30s. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Jayjg: There were many people of all races involved in anti-apartheid activities, not just the small group of Jews that you mentioned. This does not however diminish the fact that European Jews actively participated in the Apartheid regime as Whites, politically and economically, same as the "English", "Dutch", "Germans", etc. that are mentioned. Jayjg, one must be truthful and look at the issue from the perspective of the Blacks who considered the Jews as White, and a part of the Apartheid regime. Please do not continue deletions. 69.216.245.115

Why should we single out Jews for special mention when speaking of European immigrants anyway? To me that sounds rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jewish South Africans in perpetrating Apartheid, which is rather unnecessary considering the fact that they formed such a miniscule proportion of the White population. Also, I see nothing in Jayjg's comment that even looks remotely like minimising the role of other races in the Anti-Apartheid Movement. In contrast, all I see is a point (a valid one, might I add) that there were many prominent Jews in that movement. For instance, from the same source you got your quote from, comes the following: "An example of individual Jewish involvement in anti-apartheid movement is the arrest of 17 members of the African National Congress, in 1963, for anti-apartheid activities, all five whites arrested were Jewish." This is in contrast to your own comment, where you claim that they "were a part of the apartheid apparatus" (so was virtually anybody living in SA at the time, technically), while seemingly completely ignoring the fact that a decent portion of the community was involved in Anti-Apartheid activities. While it's true that as a whole, the Jewish community did not speak out against Apartheid (since when has the South African Jewish community, or any other ethnic community for that matter, had one voice on any issue?), in 1985 the South African Jewish Board of Deputies (without a doubt a very important organisation) passed a resolution rejecting Apartheid. So it's not quite true to insinuate that the community as a whole was quiet. Impi 18:29, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is singling out anybody. It's being more accurate and inclusive. It is the Jews themselves that saw themselves as distinct from the English, Dutch, Germans, etc. Would it be more accurate to say Lithuanian Jews? like the South African Jews do amongst themselves? In being inclusive and factual, it does not overemphasize anything, that is only your interpretation. 119,000 people is not "miniscule". It sounds like you are being anti-semitic in diminishing the accomplishments and contributions of Jewish people to South African history. S. Africa's Jewish community has always been one that Jewish people have taken pride in. There were many White people involved in anti-apartheid activities on a worldwide basis. The emigration of Jews out of South Africa is directly and statistically correlated to the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of. Let's not make a special exception here. History is history and "Jews" were involved in apartheid right alongside the "Dutch", "English", and "Germans".69.216.245.115

The sentence you quoted was from a website whose subject was, quite specifically, the history of Jews in South Africa, so the distinction of which you speak would obviously be valid on such a page. It is, however, not valid here. Regardless of the achievements of South Africa's Jewish population, which has occurred on a scale dwarfing their relatively small population size, the fact remains that as a percentage of the White population they are too statistically insignificant to be afforded such a prominent place in the article. After all, you might as well start to write a demographics article about South Africa then, breaking down in detail every type of immigrant group that established themselves in South Africa. I would suggest it would look rather farcical to have the article distinguish between Protestant and Catholic Germans, and do the same for the Dutch and the others. Quite simply, the opening paragraph for the section on Apartheid's history only lists the MAIN White immigrant groups to South Africa, for it is their descendants who naturally formed the majority of South Africa's White population. We don't mention the Irish, Italian, Belgian or Portuguese immigrants for this reason. Therefore there is no reason to specifically mention European Jews in that intro paragraph.

I also find it ironic that you accuse me of apparent anti-semitism, and yet you are the one who automatically assumes that those Jews who have emigrated from South Africa post-1994 have done so "because of the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of". On the contrary, there are numerous logical reasons for any South African Jew to leave South Africa, including a significantly increased violent crime rate. So I now have to question your motives, as your automatic assumption that Jewish emigration is motivated, at least in part, by racism, and your continued effort to attempt to list the South African Jews as major perpetrators of Apartheid, absence proper evidence to the contrary, do not seem to be the hallmarks of a neutral editor.

Oh, and please sign your posts from now on by typing ~~~~ at the end of your posts, as this helps readers distinguish between the comments of different editors as well as creating a time record so as to avoid confusion. Impi 20:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Your points are all quite valid. In addition, I might point out that South African Jews were not just "involved in anti-apartheid movement", but were prominent leaders of it, often at considerable personal risk to themselves. I'm also interested in understanding our anonymous editors claim that "from the perspective of the Blacks" Jews were considered "a part of the Apartheid regime." Does he have evidence of that? Is he speaking for South African blacks? Based on the long and varying history of edits by this editor on this subject, it all seems like an attempt to distort and even reverse the historical record. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I might also point out the large number of Whites worldwide that contributed to the "anti-apartheid" movement. Remember Bono? And what about the Blacks themselves? Gee. Jayjg: To me you sound rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jews in ending apartheid, but of having no part in it. We all know that is not.69.216.245.115

Sorry, what does your response have to do with my post? South African Jews were not just "involved in anti-apartheid movement", but were prominent leaders of it, often at considerable personal risk to themselves. Where is your evidence that "from the perspective of the Blacks" Jews were considered "a part of the Apartheid regime." Does you have evidence of that? Are you speaking for South African blacks? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I might point out that unlike yourself, Jayjg has made no specific edits to the page regarding Jews. All his comments have been on the discussion page only, and made in response to allegations by you. Impi 20:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Look, it is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth."

What bias are you trying to hide? South Africa had and contiues to have a "Jewish" community just like the "English", "Dutch", French" and "Germans". Why is this fact of history objectionable to you? There are thousands of sources that prove this true. Why do you object to this inclusion as outlined in the one sentence above?

Because you are trying to insert trivia for the purpose of promoting a POV; your edits and comments make this quite clear. And your proposed text is inaccurate trivia at that. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

• • • • • That's your opinion Jayjg. Your edits and comments make it clear you promote a deletionist POV. I see from your user page that you have already been accused of bias before on Wikipedia.

It is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that.69.216.246.88 21:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I see you refused to reply to my statement. Quite simply, the intro lists the MAIN European immigrant groups that formed the White population of South Africa. Including the reference to European Jews is POV because it makes it seem that they had a disproportionate role in dominating the indigenous population. Including such a small group as the Jews in the intro would only make sense if one then included ALL white immigrant groups, such as the Italian, Irish, Polish, Portuguese etc. As you can see, it would quickly become unworkable, which is why, in the interests of accuracy and neutrality, we should only list the main groups, which are German, French, Dutch and English settlers. Doing otherwise would be the imposition of POV and inaccurate Impi 22:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Anon editor, you are being overbearing now. Trying to highlight Jews, a relative minority compared to the major settlers (highlighted by Impi and the other editors here), is simply presenting a skewed image. THAT is the reason why your edits are being reverted, not some evil deletionist strategy. Dewet 22:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Gentlemen: Overbearing is better applied to those who would delete and deny the existence and reference of the Jewish community in South African history. It is not anywhere near "unworkable" to include the European Jews, along with the Italian, Irish, Polish, and Portuguese, if you like, in the one sentence in the article. Please.

It is absolutely accurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. If you want to read something more into these words and simple facts, then that is your POV. 69.216.246.88

It's not "absolutely accurate" at all. It puts the "European Jews" immigration before that of the English, which is historically inaccurate. It also highlights a group which had no significant immigration in the 19th century, and only small amounts of immigration in the 20th century. And you still fail to answer any of the major objections raised to your POV insertions. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:56, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

• jayjg: Read the facts before you make inaccurate statements. European Jews immigrated to S. Africa in the 19th Century after diamonds were discovered. The Jews themselves wrote about it in their history of Jews in South Africa. Your deletions are unconvincing. Jews were an integral part of South Africa and its history.

Take your own advice. The groups you mentioned were trivial in comparison to the main immigrations, and your little list missed out all sorts of other important ethnic groups. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Non-Revisionist Jewish History

19th Century

The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields.

First Half of the 20th Century

During the Boer War, Jews served on both sides, although the arrival of English Jews helped out the British side. Some Boers harbored prejudices against the Jews, while others felt a kinship toward them. In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens, giving British authority legitimacy among Jews.

Following the mining boom, Jews became part of the rapid industrialization of South Africa. They became involved in food processing; clothing, textile and furniture manufacturing; insurance; hotel management; advertising and entertainment. Jews also established supermarkets, department stores and discount store chains.

See Jewish Virtual Library

Yes, small numbers of Jews emigrated to South Africa in the 20th century, along with all sorts of other Europeans. So what? Small numbers of Jews emigrated to to almost every country in the world in the 20th century. It has already been pointed out to you that this is a minor footnote in the history of South Africa; you have been trying to emphasize this trivia solely to push a POV. Please stop creating sockpuppets, and instead respect the consensus of the 9 editors (and counting) who have reverted you so far. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Protected due to the revert war. If this can be resolved, or the problematic parties removed from the situation, feel free to unprotect, but if I understand correctly blocking might not be adequate to deal with this one? --Michael Snow 20:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The editor in question is using dialup IPs, and has gone through at least 5 ip addresses and 5 sockpuppets as well. Blocking just forces him to re-boot. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:54, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

• • Thank You Michael Snow, you indeed see the revert war that the Revert-Team members use to discourage input from others. How is an indivudual supposed to contribute to Wikipedia against a "gang"? Unfortunatly, jayjg and a few others abuse administration privileges by banning anyone immediately that their "gang" differs with. People will not submit to this intimidation by a biased group. jayjg ought to be banned for complete and utter bias, at least at a minimum from this article henceforth. Read the facts. There were many Jews along with the 1) English, 2) Dutch, 3) French, 4) Germans, and 5) other European settlers (that jayjg has no problems listing) that played an active role in the economic and political history of South Africa. To deny that Jews were active in politics and economics in the history of S. Africa is pure revision. Thank you Michael Snow, but unfortunately you froze the article with the Deletion and Revisionism in place.69.218.25.182 21:09, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The main immigrants were the Dutch and French, and later the English. I have no problem mentioning Europeans, because there were indeed small numbers of other Europeans. I don't see the point in mentioning the many sub-groups of Europeans, though, as that is trivia. I especially don't approve of mentioning only one particular sub-group of Europeans, purely for the purpose of POV-pushing. As for trying to "contribute" to Wikipedia against a "gang", when 9 separate editors revert your edits, it's time to start realizing that your "contribution" detracts from the article, rather than improving it. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, enough already. You don't "see the point", because you have a POV or a blind spot or something. The contributions of Jews to South Africa are numerous. Jews make up a minority/small percentage of every single country in which they dwell but Israel, but should we not acknowledge their contributions and presence in the histories of the USA? Britain? Canada?, Germany? etc? Jayjg, you are so POV it is laughable. On Wikipedia you want to push a POV that is Jewish-centric when you think it helps your bias, and you want to deny and revise on other occasions like this one.

The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. The Jews themselves saw their community as strong and distinct from the Europeans. Fact and History. That's the way it was. Reread history and I have provided you a Jewish source! So please stop the denial and revisionist history. See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html Jewish Virtual Library] again:

Apartheid Regime

With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities. 69.218.25.182 21:58, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the Jews were involved more than, say, the Chukchis, but that does not not necessarily wins them a place in an encyclopedia. Regarding the JVL quote: first, JVL concentrates on Jews because it is a Jewish Lib, and second, to refute conspiracy theorists and plain antisemites who insist on playing up "the Jewish hand" at every turn of the history, especially tragic ones. Your preoccupation with "the Jews" here tells more about yourself than about the subject. Sorry to note so, but you are not the first one and you are not in a good company. And of course, your motives are noble and moral, yeah right. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 23:17, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Humus sapiens: You do not have a crystal ball into the minds of others. Do you want me to give you my opinion of you? You have revealed yourself in the denier and revisionist camp. Your Talk page proves your huge preoccupation with the Jews, and it tells more about yourself than about your knowledge of S. African history. Your opinion is thus discredited for bias. Let's stick to the facts and history of S. Africa's economic and political history, which involves Jews every bit as much as the current list of: "Dutch, English, Germans, and French". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. Reread the links and highlighted facts above. Thank you. 69.209.236.191 19:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It's quite amusing that you would accuse others of being "in the denier and revisionist camp", of having a "huge preoccupation with the Jews", and state that their "opinion is thus discredited for bias". Thanks for the laugh. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:11, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

You again? Are you back from today's shuffleboard game? Thanks for all your laughs. Jayjg, whoever you are, you (and the "gang" that circumvents Wikipedia's 3R Rules) are the ones preoccupied with Jews and weaving Jewish distortion and revision into Wikipedia, as your Talk page and Wikipedia editing activities confirm. Are you going to deny this also? Denial of Jewish history in S. Africa, as outlined in the link provided, is just not factual and it will not fly, sorry.69.209.236.191 23:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Give it up already, anon. You are citing biased sources (the Jewish virtual museum, remember?), you have made your your bias towards the inclusion of Jews at the cost of obfuscating the article quite plain. Wikipedia operates on consensus, which you are not gaining, not through either your edit warring or your arguments. Insulting the users here certainly doesn't give you a moral high ground or make others more amenable. Think about that.

I suggest you come up with a new tactic if you wish to convince others of your opinion. One which isn't aggressive, and one which can be debated and fleshed out to gain a suitable standard for inclusion. Those are, unfortunately, the breaks, especially for articles on such a delicate topics as apartheid. Dewet 06:24, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)