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===Oppose Prop 5===
===Oppose Prop 5===
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*Oppose. Undue weight that consists largely of tabloid beat up sourced from the US Army newspaper! Example, Rawat called Hans Jayanti ""the most significant event in human history", it's absurd to claim he would miss it and "curse" his mother. Secondly, where does "charges were eventually dropped with apologies from the government" come from? Most sources say charges were never laid. Thirdly, the government apologized, so thirteen lines to describe a mistake made by Indian customs against an innocent Rawat is undue weight, poisoning the well, guilt by association etc. Fourthly and no surprise, any vote will be a simple numbers game along party lines of which the "pro" editors are a small minority.[[User:Momento|Momento]] ([[User talk:Momento|talk]]) 23:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
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===Discussion===
===Discussion===

Revision as of 23:37, 6 June 2008

Proposal #2

I've posted revised text at User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Proposal 2. It includes additional information and tightens up the writing. We can discuss it here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not bad, but Where is the source for this: was discussed in Parliament? Also, why have you removed the other material that is as well sourced as other material you added? Any specific reason, or just a personal preference? I am referring to your replacing this material: The director of the movement's public relations division said that the money was to be used to support the local travel and food expenses of the visitors,[1], and lawyers representing the Divine Light Mission reported that one of the travelers, forgot to declare the currency and valuables, and that the goods seized did not belong to Rawat for this material: A DLM spokesman said that the money did not belong to Rawat, but had been deposited in the "Divine Bank" by followers in order to pay for local travel and food. Care to explain? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Glad you approve. I'll get the parliament source. the other stuff mostly copy editing. The only substantial part omitted is blaming one of the travellers. The relevance to Rawat was that he was the center of the allegation. Neither he nor the person who took the fall in rone report were prosecuted, so it doesn't seem to have made any difference to the case. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have not approved it, Will. Just commenting that it is not bad. I am not sure why are you brining up an issue of "blame" as the sources do not ascribe "blame" to anyone. FYI, there were two other people that were investigated, these two that carries that suitcase through customs. You have still not answered my question about the reason for choosing one source over the other, and I am awaiting for a straight answer. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot find that specific clipping in my collection. Care to make the text available to me? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've sent it by email. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Much appreciated. I cannot find a mention of prime minister Gandhi in that clipping, maybe that was in another source? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:04, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I sent you the clipping that mentioned the parliament. I'll send you the Gandhi clipping too. (I thought the same article had mentioned both, but apparently not). ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I have seen the mention of Gandhi somewhere, but it will be good to add the source for that fact/. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:19, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal #3

  • Merged Proposal 2, with one portion of Proposal 1 as per comments above
  • Removed the "cursed" tidbit that seems to me to be redundant and unrelated to the customs incident being described
  • Added source for last statement
  • Removed material about Gandhi until we find the source

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • The tensions between the subject and his mother are an important aspect of the subject's life, and we mention other conflicts. Why delete it from here? You also delete the name of the "Divine Bank" which is mentioned in many accounts. Is it really necessary to say " the director of the movement's public relations division" instead of "a spokesman"? It's very wordy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You may have a point or two here, Will. The term "divine bank" does not seem to appear in most of the sources we have. Not sure what value that adds. I will make some corrections to proposal 3. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the source used (INDEPENDENT, PRESS-TELEGRAM), seems at a cursory glance to be quite tabloidesque in its reporting. What is that source, a local newspaper, a magazine? Do you have it accessible? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Long Beach Press-Telegram is not a tabloid. As for the "divine bank", it's covered in many sources, far more than those that specify "a necklace" or "the director of the movement's public relations division". I can provde you with some citations:
    • All of (he followers have regular duties in the camp, such as cooking, laundering, folding leaflets or working in such establishments as the 'Divine Bank." where devotees change dollars to rupees at the legal rate of exchange.
    • THE Premies said he was being falsely persecuted, just as Jesus Christ had been. They said the alleged countraband was part of the assets of the mission's divine bank and was being held in safekeeping for the owners, all devotees.
    • According to the guru's disciples, the stash was a Divine Bank that had been put together to support the pilgrims during their month-long sojourn in India. Refusing to buy that story, the Indian government ordered an investigation into the movement's finances and seized the passport of the "prince of peace."
    • A spokesman for the mission said the goods seized belonged to the Divine Light Bank," where all the guru's followeres had deposited their currency and valuables.
    • According to the mission, the goods seized did not belong to the guru but had been deposited with the "Divine Bank" by followers who flew to New Delhi in a fleet of chartered jumbo jets for a religious festival.
  • I can find more if that's not enough. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. As for the "divine light bank", that could be added. I do not think that they referred to the bank as being "divine", rather, a divine light mission "bank". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prop. 4

I've added more detail about the investigation and the jewelry. I've sent you the news source. I left it "divine bank" since that seems to be the more commonly-used name ("Divine Health Care Center", "Divine Employment Agency", etc.). Apparently many enterprises were called "divine". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also trimmed and added material: Lawyers representing the DLM reported that one of the travelers forgot to declare the goods, and that the goods seized did not belong to Rawat.[1] to Secretaries took responsibility for the valuables and for failing to declare them.[2][1] . That incorporates two aspects, Apter's and the Indian secretary, and trims a redundant declaration that the material didn't belong to Rawat. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you send the source that you have summarized as the government asked diplomats to investigate DLM finances in the U.S., U.K. and other countries looking for violations of laws governing foreign assets held by Indian nationals? The material I have relates to communist members of their parliament making such comments. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ALso, the sources provided do not mention Gandhi at all. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I sent you the artilce yesterday - "Gifts for a guru". Do you need me to send it again? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found it, thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prop. 5

Small tweaks to stay closer to the sources. Are we there now, Will? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is awfully wordy: "A senior member of the government reported that diplomatic missions in several countries, including the U.S., U.K, were asked to investigate ..." Why can't we just say that "Diplomatic missions in several countries, including the U.S., U.K, were asked to investigate ..." The phrase ""A senior member of the government reported that..." doesn't add much, unless we're trying to say that we find the claim to be dubious. Otherwise it looks fine to me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saying "the government" is inaccurate, as we do not know exctly what was asked and who did ask. I will try a shorter version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm suggesting dropping "the government" and to use instead, "Diplomatic missions in several countries, including the U.S., U.K, were asked to investigate ..." Since the preceding sentence refers to the government I think it's clear that the request was official. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That looks fine to me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shall we ask Steve to request an editprotected? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

If so, my talk page is → that way. :D. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A) Maybe I should have specified with which exact version I agreed. The date of the passport revocation was just removed without comment.[1] It's reasonably clear as edited, but I'd appreciate it if new changes are discussed or a fresh proposal is made. B) Do two editors constitute consensus? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is based on these editors that chose to participate. As we are in mediation, and proposals are being made and worked on, anypne can comment on the proposals and/or provide their own. Consensus is assessed by lack of strong objections, no? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the date for the passport thing, either we say the exact date (which is superfluous, IMO) or simply we state "at the time" which makes it clear that it was at the time of the incident. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
None of the other active editors have been involved in this discussion. Would any editors who changes this text without fresh discussion and consensus be regarded as disruptive, even if they haven't participated here? Consensus usually isn't binding on other editors, but between the probation and mediation perhaps that's changed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • While not binding, all the parties have agreed to the idea I presented. Also, silence, generallu = consensus, if enough time and exposure is given. True, it's an issue (the idea that one would not partake in the discussion, yet raise objections after), but its a possibility. We will come down that road when we get to it. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 04:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not consensing, I'm not consensing! :) I am away right now, and do not have time to devote to the project until I return on Monday (already wikibreaking, wikibroken?)but will stick my head in as I can. One quick comment for readability, how important is the Hans Jayanti festival? Is not enough to just say Rawat returned to India for a festival to celebrate his father's birthday? Seems like extraneous material to include a name most people will not know, and I don't see how it would detract from the focus of the proposal by removing it. Having said that, it could just be me that doesn't know about Hans Jayanti, is that the case? Also somewhere, we should explain what a "Divine Bank" is, that reference I do understand, but I think it may be construed in many different ways without some additional context, somewhere. Ohh, time's up, glub glub glub... -- Maelefique (talk) 17:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for commenting. Events surrounding two Hans Jayanti festivals ('72 and '73) are mentioned in the article. While the DLM conducted many festivals, some annually and some ad hoc, the "HJ" appears to have been the most important so it seemed worth mentioning. If there's a strong objection I don't mind dropping it. As for the "Divine Bank", while it's mentioned in several accounts none go into much detail. Can you suggest a different construction? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: Rawat, who had surrendered his passport at the time, posted a $13,300 bond in order to leave the country for a planned English-American tour in June 1973. Charges were eventually dropped with apologies from the government.[40] [41] This is another examle of the problem of presenting a minor (Rawat still only 15) as the agent of activities requiring the status of legal majority. A 15 year old could neither surrender a passport, nor post a bond. A construction along the lines of "A $13,300 bond was posted in order for Rawat to be able to leave the country for a planned English-American tour in June 1973. Charges were eventually dropped with apologies from the government.[40] [41]" would avoid the problem of defining agency.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good point. Shrunk and White tell us to avoid passive sentences but the reality of encyclopedia writing is that vague statements are the most accurate. Rather than attributing actions or causes to people without proof it's easier to say that "things happened". Who knows who did what, exactly? The more we're precise the less we're accurate, as with all measurements. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DLM article

The DLM article has similar content at Divine_Light_Mission#Festivals. Once we have agreement on a version for the main article, we could do a short summary of it and replace the current content at the DLM article, for consistency. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That content is a summary of what we've got here. The DLM version barely mentions the customs incident. As for arrangements in general- I tried that with the Millennium '73 festival and then an editor came through and inserted a bunch of unnecessary material. If we can get an agreeement from all parties then I'd be interested. But agreements that don't include loose cannons are worthless. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal3 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ready?

It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • It was my understanding that the DLM chartered those jumbo jets, as it reads now, it looks as if the followers chartered their own jumbo jets, is that right? Unrelated note: I couldn't come up with a better construction for the "Divine Bank" problem without using up far more words than it's importance would indicate as appropriate. -- Maelefique (talk) 23:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a small change. It had said, "...including 2,500 members from the U.S. who chartered seven jumbo jets for the trip and stayed a month at the DLM's Indian ashrams" which I just changed to "...including 2,500 members from the U.S. who traveled on seven chartered jumbo jets and stayed a month at the DLM's Indian ashrams." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree with this proposal. This is excessive undue weight for an incident that Rawat was not party to and for which the government apologized. The existing material is sufficient.Momento (talk) 09:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you point out where there is undue weight? Additionally, plenty of time was given for an alternate proposal to be added, or discussion, but the edit has been made, as I saw no objection, until after the edit was made. Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 09:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Undue weight is giving undue prominence. As I said above Rawat didn't own the material, Rawat wasn't charged and the government apologized to him. This is a minor incident that was blown out of proportion by the media and is now being blown out of proportion by Wikipedia. It is "guilt by association.", five lines about suspected smuggling has become 13 lines. It is now the largest paragraph in the article. That is undue weight. And yes some time may have been given for alternatives but the choice made by WillBeBack was announced at 9:04, 4 June, relayed to the Prem Rawat talk page 24 hours later and acted on by you in less than 30 minutes. Who had time to object before?Momento (talk) 10:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We should all recall the history here. I edited-in a short version of the event, "Prop.0". Jossi wanted more context and so we made a succession of edits resulting in an agreed-upon result. Momento appears to be arguing for using my original text. However since writing that I've learned more about the interest of Ghandi and the international investigation which leads me to believe it is worth the weight we give it in this proposal. This was discussed in Parliament which means it's worth including either here or at DLM. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The history doesn't matter. I can live with Prop 0. The extraneous stuff in the other versions adds nothing that I can see of interest or value. The most important statement for this BLP is "charges were never laid and the government later apologised," and that is getting masked by all the careful listing of jewelry and wristwatches, questions raised in the house, etc. I particularly object to the line in versions 4 and 5 that says two secretaries "took responsibility." This is an insinuaton that there was wrongdoing and that somone took the rap for it. Totally unacceptable. Rumiton (talk) 13:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone please point out to me which of the five proposals (drafts!) you're discussing here? Thanks... Sylviecyn (talk) 13:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal 5 Sylvie, unless you'd like to discuss one of the others as an alternate, or create #6. Momento's argument against the material makes a lot of noise, but has no factual basis presented. He says it was a "minor incident blown out of proportion by the media", well if there's a source for that claim, let's have it. If not, this event seems to come up in most books on Rawat, even Downton, who really had nothing to do with that part of his life, mentions it. One pro-Rawat editor wants it fleshed out, one doesn't (but provides nothing concrete to his argument), seems like a bit of a stalling tactic to me. I think any time a government apologizes to someone, that's important enough to mention in a biography (obvious? not obvious?). Regarding the claim that it's the largest paragraph in the article, the article isn't finished, this is where we were starting, so that's a bit of a specious argument. -- Maelefique (talk) 15:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The current proposal #5 is the result of discussions related to providing context for the incident, and could certainly be tightened as per the concerns raised by Momento and Rumiton. I would appreciate if Momento and or Rumiton present an alternative proposal based on the work available in proposal #5 that could be discussed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it's late here, I will try tomorrow. The problem I keep coming up against is, How long should this article be? When I first got involved the article had just failed a Good Article review, largely on the basis of its being "bloated." Since then it has grown out of all proportion, and there are editors who seem to want it to get even huger. Every claim needs a counter-claim, then a counter-counter-claim for "balance". It is a kind of madness. Can we get some ruling from the GA people on how big an article is justified here? Then we can work back towards something we might even one day be proud of. Rumiton (talk) 15:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll

Shall we add proposal #5 to the article? Please sign your name under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.

Support Prop 5

Oppose Prop 5

  • Oppose. Undue weight that consists largely of tabloid beat up sourced from the US Army newspaper! Example, Rawat called Hans Jayanti ""the most significant event in human history", it's absurd to claim he would miss it and "curse" his mother. Secondly, where does "charges were eventually dropped with apologies from the government" come from? Most sources say charges were never laid. Thirdly, the government apologized, so thirteen lines to describe a mistake made by Indian customs against an innocent Rawat is undue weight, poisoning the well, guilt by association etc. Fourthly and no surprise, any vote will be a simple numbers game along party lines of which the "pro" editors are a small minority.Momento (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I'm leaning towards support, but before I throw my straw in, a comment an a question.

  • The final line reads:"eventually dropped with apologies". Can we change it to "eventually dropped, with apologies"? Relatively minor, but otherwise it sounds like a proper thing, like "graduated with honors" or "terminate with prejudice".
  • With all the talk of what the wording should be, has anyone double-checked the numbers? I don't have access to all the articles and all the reported facts. Can one (or better, two) people vouch for the numerical facts? Also, glad to see the reported value in pounds sterling removed in favor of the estimated USD value. Looks more consistent that way. Mael-Num (talk) 19:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think anyone would object to adding the comma you mention. As for the numbers, different sources give different numbers. In one case, the value of the suitcase, we give the range or reported values (excluding one that appears to be off by an order of magnitude). In other cases we just pick a number. For example, some sources report five charted jumbo jets, some report six, and at least one reports seven. The number of followers from the U.S. is sometimes reported as 2500 and sometimes as 3000. There are obviously round numbers and neither appears to be definitive. Since those differences don't materially change the story in any way, it seems safe to take one from a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we assume that since Jossi didn't oppose the vote while he stopped to throw out his 1.5 cents worth, that he's not opposed? Or is he just keeping us in suspense? Is this a cliffhanger? (ooh, just like a TV show ending...) -- Maelefique (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference NYT19730718 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ "Gifts for a guru". AP, THE STARS AND STRIPES November 15, 1972. p.4
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