Talk:Armenian genocide denial/Archive 2

Reversal by Gazifikator

user:Gazifikator please explain how you justify the comment in the edit history of the article "rv revisionist view" when you made "this reversal of the following text:

The Armenian Genocide is widely acknowledged outside Turkey to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides,^[1] as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.^[2]

• Cite 1:
  • Ferguson, Niall. The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West. New York: Penguin Press, 2006 p. 177 ISBN 1-5942-0100-5.
  • A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars June 13, 2005)
• Cite 2: "Senate Resolution 106 - - Calling on the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to Human Rights, Ethnic Cleansing, and Genocide Documented in the United States Record relating to the Armenian Genocide". Library of Congress.

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just realised that you reverted all of my edits what was revisionist about the new section "===Genocide convention==="[1] or the paragraph

Under international law, ethnic cleansing of itself is not enough to show that genocide has taken place as it must be accompanied by the biological destruction of the group.^[1]

• citation 1: ECHR Jorgic v. Germany Judgment, July 12 2007. § 42 citing Prosecutor v. Krstic, IT-98-33-T, judgment of 2 August 2001, § 43 citing the judgment of 19 April 2004 rendered by the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY, IT-98-33-A §§ 25,33, 47, 190,580)

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

user:Gazifikator I have reverted your reversions of my edits as you have not commented here. I have also reverted your reversion of my page move from "Armenian genocide debate" back to "Denial of the Armenian Genocide". Your reason for doing this in the edit history was "moved Armenian genocide debate to Denial of the Armenian Genocide over redirect: removing as per other cases of genocides". Yet there AFAICT are no other articles entitled "Denial of the XYZ Genocide". There is an article entitled Holocaust Denial but there is also Holodomor genocide question and History wars and sections in articles such as 1971 Bangladesh atrocities#Genocide debate. If you look at the Genocide denial article and the Genocides in history there are many many accusations of Genocide and refutations, and we do not have a Genocide denial article for each accusation of genocide.

In the version you reverted to the very first citation was to a page by the BBC called Q&A: Armenian genocide dispute not "Q&A: Denial of the Armenian Genocide". In my opinion as Turkish government denies that a genocide took place, the better to follow the lead of the BBC, to have a neutral title and let the facts speak for themselves. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This move of yours as well as the accompanying edits are unacceptable. Prior to making such controversial changes you must first achieave a consensus. This is not the place the be bold. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 12:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted your cut and past move. Cut and past moves are not acceptable as they destroy the history of an article that is needed for copy right reasons.(see: Help:Moving a page). I am willing to discuss the changes. But to date no one has replied on the talk page with a comment as to why they object to the changes. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

How convenient for you. You're willing to discuss the unilateral changes and the undiscussed move which you applied to an article you very well know is going to create problems? 1RR needs to be applied to this article immediately.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 12:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I am more than willing to discuss both the changes to the article that I made and the move. Please explain what you objections are. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My advice is that the above editor should not be engaged with, it is pointless to discuss this subject with a genocide denier. The title he proposes is invalid. There is no "debate", only "denial" and "acceptance", so his posts here are off-topic and should be removed from this talk page for the same reason that postings made on the Armenian Genocide entry are removed if their sole purpose is to deny the Armenian Genocide. If he persists in this obnoxious POV warring, I suggest reporting his actions. Meowy 16:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy to whom are you referring when you say "genocide denier". If it is to me where have I written anything that denies that there was a genocide and before making such postings again I would suggest that you read WP:CIVIL. If as you say there is no debate would the wording used in the BBC article mentioned above "Armenian genocide dispute" be more acceptable? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Can't you understand what I wrote? I said "the above editor", so it was obvious it was you I was referring to. Admittedly, your ability to see the obvious is in question given your contributions here so far. Meowy 18:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the Wikipedia not the BBC. There is no dispute or debate. You either deny or accept. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

When you write "you" do you mean "one"? I will assume the latter but please correct me if I am wrong on this. Are you absolutely sure that all people either a deny or accept? That may be true that for a minority of readers of Wikipedia , but most come here to be informed, so they may next to know of the events that occurred. So from their perspective the information presented is that of a debate and having read all the information on Wikipedia they may not have made up their minds. If I follow your logic are you suggesting that there should be two articles one that proposes that a genocide took place and another that denies that a genocide took place, with not contradictions to those two approaches on either page. In which case wouldn't these two articles be a point of view (POV) fork? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The above (yes, I mean you, Philip Baird Shearer) editor arrives out of the blue and makes a series of controversial and POV-ridden edits without discussing anything beforehand, then he changes the entry title to suit his POV, again doing it without any discussion. It seems he is displaying an unusually precocious case of WP:OWN, together with a contempt for any editor who has previously worked on this article. That contempt includes not bothering to read past contributions to this talk page. Changing the title of this entry has twice before been formally proposed: changing "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" to "Rejection of the Armenian Genocide Allegations, and to "Denial of the Armenian Genocide Allegations". Both those proposed changes were proposed in advance, discussed in some detail, and in the end comprehensively rejected. Philip Baird Shearer appears to want to circumvent accepted Wikipedia procedures. For these reasons alone he is not deserving of normal considerations. Meowy 18:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)