Talk:Elvis Presley/Archive 23

• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive3
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive4
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive5

If you're here to have a look because of the RfC, please read archives 3, 4 and 5 first, thank you.

Wikipedia:Wikiquette#How to avoid abuse of Talk pages states:

• Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy.

Repeating the same arguments over and over are pointless as this matter is now in the hands of the Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee where it will be resolved. - Ted Wilkes 17:31, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, I endorse Ted Wilkes' interpretation of soapbox. 141's most recent contributions have been an unabated continuation of the same repeated and wholly unsupported (either by WP consensus or the documented historical record) tabloid-style assertions which have already been very lengthily discussed and rejected by every editor who looked into them. Readers can follow the entire discussion in the archives. Wyss 17:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

OK. Would you please discuss these passages from Priscilla Presley's book, a source you seem to have accepted as most reliable:

Seriously, 141, is English your native language? Wyss 18:38, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

English is not my native language, but when I was younger I have travelled extensively, living in the USA for some years. Do you have problems with this fact? Onefortyone 18:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I thought so. Although your (very limited and somewhat stilted) usage of English grammar is nominally correct, you make syntax errors (as I have bolded above in your latest reply) and IMHO you do seem to encounter steep challenges when trying to interpret (much less twist) the nuances of English language text. Wyss 18:54, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

There are lots of people from foreign countries contributing relevant material to innumerable Wikipedia articles, and there are many native speakers here who are able to correct grammatical or syntax errors as the one above, etc. I do not think that this is of much importance to the present discussion concerning the claims that Elvis may have had homosexual leanings. ;) Onefortyone 19:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about fixing up grammar and syntax mistakes in articles at all, but I guess your response does show the troubles you seem to have comprehending English text and sources (along with the many other issues now being discussed in the arbitration concerning you). Wyss 19:43, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not think that I have trouble as you suggest. Most sources which support the view that Elvis had affairs with men are written by English and American writers. Their texts usually do not include grammar or syntax errors. Onefortyone 20:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

As I said, that's not at all what I'm talking about. You might try re-reading my posts in this thread. I do understand that your limitations in comprehending written English might make this difficult for you, especially when combined with the narrow focus of your agenda here. Wyss 20:53, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Is this a personal attack? I think so. Onefortyone 21:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

If you think what I said was a personal attack, that's only another example of your problems reading written English. So far as I can see, your contributions are a result of either lack of comprehension, willful distortion and fabrication, or both. Let's let the arbitration settle it. Wyss 21:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Weeks ago you accused me of being David Bret. Last week you said that I am the sockpuppet of a Wikipedia administrator. Now you seem to have changed your tactics in order to denigrate my contributions. These strategies are all too transparent to every unbiased reader. Onefortyone 09:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no tactics other than to comment on the malicious effects of your edits. IMHO only money could motivate anyone to spend so much time on such unsupportable edits and this has made others ponder the possibility you're David Bret. Your adroitness in following (and your familiarity with) WP policy, which you use to mock and abuse the encyclopedia, along with other stuff I won't mention here, indicate you have a regular WP username (that of an admin, as it happens), ironic since you tend to accuse people who don't accept your sources of being sockpuppets of others who don't accept your sources. Finally, you do seem to have subtle problems with the comprehension of nuance in written English. My remarks have been consistent. Please stop vandalizing Wikipedia. Wyss 15:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Summary of the argument for newcomers

Here is basically what's going on: a user called Onefortyone tries to change Google results of "Elvis gay", so that those results lead to a book by David Bret. Bret is a sensationalist writer who is said to be "careless with facts". To support 141's point of view that Elvis was gay, he gives the following sources:

1) A book by David Bret 2) An unpublished manuscript by Elvis' stepmother 3) An article in the National Enquirer 4) A photograph of Elvis and some famous gay guy, which supposedly demonstrates Elvis' homosexuality.

An overwhelming consensus of editors here ( many of whom really dislike each other ) have agreed that all those sources are worth zero. Onefortyone often tries to make the point that his POV is suppressed because of us and the Elvis community as a whole. This is not true, though: my only contribution to the Elvis article was to mention the wide-spread belief that he died of constipation ( obviously, I'm not an Elvis fan ). The fact is most of us don't even like Elvis, but we feel that we have to take a stand against misuse of Wikipedia for financial purposes ( messing with Google searches ).

So far, the argument is still not resolved and the article ought to still be "protected". (129.241.134.241 16:26, 17 September 2005 (UTC))

As I've said repeatedly, "independent" is not relevant to "credible," "reliable" or "encyclopedic." Wyss 16:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Please note that 141's references to James Dean and Nick Adams, even in the context of this single play, appear to be unsupported PoV. Wyss 16:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The Dee Presley material is thoroughly discussed (as discredited and in some senses non-existent) in the talk archives. The rumours about EP and his mother are unsubstantiated so I don't see how they could be helpful in an encyclopedia article. Wyss 16:33, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Verification of assertion(s) made by User:Onefortyone:

I, User:Ted Wilkes, left the following message on User Talk:Onefortyone:

To User:Onefortyone/Anon 80,141. et al:

• You inserted on the Talk:Elvis Presley page this edit that stated as fact the following:
  • "In his book, The Boy who would be King: An Intimate Portrait of Elvis Presley by his Cousin (1990), Earl Greenwood, Elvis's second cousin who paled around with Elvis for many years before and after his success, says that Elvis had a affair with Nick Adams."

- I decided to invest a $1.15, and ordered a copy of "The Boy Who Would Be King : An Intimate Portrait of Elvis Presley By His Cousin" by Earl Greenwood from here. Would you please provide the direct quote from the book and the page number so I can verify your assertion. Thank you.

- Ted Wilkes 17:54, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Aaron

As far as I know, his name is really Elvis Aaron, not Aron. Look here. --CodeMonk 17:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

As has been noted several times, his father put that spelling on the marker because EP had been planning on having his middle name legally changed to Aaron. Wyss 22:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Please note that I moved the Bye Bye Birdie thing from his Military Service section to Trivia as it is unrelated to him or his military service, and as the article itself says, it was a superstar "akin" to Presley. Also, I will again remove the Teen idol reference. No such terminology existed or was applied to Presley. It was created by agents to promote their clients when Presley was already called the King of Rock and Roll. It began c. 1958 after Ricky Nelson had become a successful singer then others like Fabian and Frankie Avalon followed. - Ted Wilkes 22:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

The King

Please don't refer to Elvis Presley as simply, "The King". His record company labelled him as "the King of Rock 'n' Roll". Fans have since shortened it the "The King" but it is unrealistic to label any artist as "the King". Who've got Ray Charles the "Genius Of Soul", James Brown the "Godfather of Soul", Michael Jackson the "King of Pop" and then ofcourse who've got Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis who have both been called the "King of Rock n Roll" from time to time. Out of all these artists it is impossible to label one of them as simply "the King". It's disputable as to whether or not Elvis really is the "King of Rock n Roll" anyway, so calling him "the King" is a stretch.

If fans refer to him as The King, then that should be noted in the article. We should be reporting what goes on, not what should go on. KeithD (talk) 08:21, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

His fans widely refer to him as The King, I've read and heard this many times. Wyss 16:12, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

That's fair enough. As long as it is emphasized that Elvis Presley is not "the King", he is the "King of Rock and Roll" (arguably). Street walker 09:33, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hillbilly Cat

Does anybody know about him being called "The Hillbilly Cat?" I never heard of it before. - Ted Wilkes 15:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[1] Seems to be true. KeithD (talk) 15:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I question that internet article as being authorative. I do know that many years later in 2001, a CD was released with the title "Elvis Presley - The Hillbilly Cat" which was a collection of his Louisiana Hayride songs. I actually think this comes from Peter Guralnick referring to him as that, not Presley. His appearance on the Grand Ole Opry, and all his early touring was as The Blue Moon Boys". - Ted Wilkes 16:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

This one [2] says they were billed as The Hillbilly Cat and the Blue Moon Boys. Wyss 16:09, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Also this Google search seems (to me) to point at lots of support. Wyss 16:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but what I'm saying is that it appears they have picked up this label from Guarlnick's book section title about that time (1955) and quote it. See the L.A. Times Weekly reprint & label - 16:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Someone has gone back and forth (with me) about the reception Presley got at the Grand Ole Opry. Here is Guralnick's account, which, as his most respected biographer, I think is suitable for the article. Note that I also removed: "however one of the show's executives reportedly told Presley he would be better off resuming his truck driving work, causing Presley to make a vow to never return there, a promise he kept" as Guralnick gives a very different account of what Grand Ole Opry head Jim Denny said. - Ted Wilkes 16:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I removed the "Hillbilly Cat" reference. He never billed himself as that, the name was just one of many given to him by others in 1955 when the "Blue Moon Boys" toured. That reference probably was first used by Waylon Jennings as described here at Random House for the Guralnick book. This Blue Moon Boys article website appears to document it well about the early names attributed by fans, DJ's etc that says: "During these early years, both the media and fans scrambled for words to describe Elvis and his music. Monikers included the Hillbilly Cat, the Folk Music Fireball, and the Nation’s Only Atomic Powered Singer." Also in this article, Guarlnick mentions he has no stage name and refers to the various ones given by others and in a reported interview Presley was asked what he called himself to which Presley said: "Well I never have given myself a name but a lot of disc jockeys call me Boppin’ Hillbilly and Bebop" - Ted Wilkes 18:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't see how you can use a reference that supports it as a means to remove it. Wyss 18:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It says (I repeat) the fans, DJs and others gave him that name amongst several others. Elvis Presley said he didn't use any name. Should we insert all the various names every fan, DJ, etc. gives to performers, politicans, and the like? - Ted Wilkes 18:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Obviously not, but Hillbilly Cat was plainly used widely as billing during his first year or so of fame. This is so heavily supported by the web cites above I don't see why we can't confirm it for readers. As for the celebrity himself saying he didn't have a nickname, lots of them resist nicknames but still get them. Wyss 19:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... since his music was rather rockabilly at first, the nickname Hillbilly Cat may resonate more with me, I guess. I'd prefer keeping it in the header. Why do you find it distracting (or whatever) there? (btw I didn't put it there originally, it's been there since the first time I saw the article) Wyss 19:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

No. I removed it (again), simply because we then would have to allow every other person to insert any of the other names given him (or an person in a Wiki article) by fans etc. Hillbilly Cat is in fact not widely referred to. It was, as I pointed out earlier, picked up because of the section title used in Guarlnick's book. It was never used in any TV/film bio etc. All of these website are copying Guarlnick, note one Wyss linked to even declared that was how he billed himself. - Ted Wilkes 19:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

With all due respect I think you've misinterpreted the sources and are also conflating a concern about "allowing any possible nickname" with one clearly used early in his career. Wyss 19:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Wyss. Whilst "any possible nickname" wouldn't be allowed, this one seems verifiable. It's not setting a precedent, it's making a judgement on this specific example. KeithD (talk) 20:02, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain it again: While on tour in 1955, Waylon Jennings referred to Presley as a "hillbilly cat." (Small capitals). Someone, a DJ or someone introducing him on stage picked up on it and at least once more called him that. However, another DJ/emcee also called him the "Folk Music Fireball", and another called him the "Nation’s Only Atomic Powered Singer" (see above and read article) and as Presley said, other names too like "Boppin’ Hillbilly." User:Wyss said "Hillbilly Cat" was "one clearly used early in his career." It was not. "Hillbilly Cat" was not common whatsoever, it was just ONE of a few given to him once or twice while on tour in four southern states while still unknown in the rest of the U.S. Every town he performed in, the emcee had his own label. These various nicknames were forgotten because they were never in use more than once or twice until 39 years later in 1994 when Presley biographer Peter Guralnick used one of them for a section title in the article in the L.A. Weekly. It is not in Guralnick's book. (See the Scotty Moore website here. In this article it says Guarlnick spoke about the various names given to Presley during this short period in 1955. None were a Presley common attribution, he had no commonly used name attribution of any kind. "Hillbilly Cat" was just one insignificant label given Presley once or twice out of several attributions. The only reason that it comes up on the Internet sites today is because Peter Guarlnick is the most quoted of any Presley biographer and the "cut and pasters" use it. Had Guralnick used the "Nation's Only Atomic Powered Singer" or the "Boppin’ Hillbilly" as the section title, then that is what would be on the Internet today. Quoting one moniker out of several given by a few people and used one or two times only in the space of a few months 1955 is not like The "King of Rock and Roll" that millions of people have used since c.1958. - Ted Wilkes 21:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

When they first hit the Southern circuit, they were billed as the Hillbilly Cat and the Blue Moon Boys. [3] Wyss 22:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Wyss, you already used this link earlier. Deal with the facts, not the words of a 2004 website run by who knows that are doing as I said they do fifty years later using Guralnick's article header? This link doesn't meet Wiklipedia requirements. Most likely, they copied it from Wikipedia or one of the many Wiki mirrors you have referred to. Or, are you stating that whatever is on this site is fully acceptable to Wikipedia? Strange though, because earlier on these Talk pages you denounced the use of both Rolling Stone magazine and Billboard magazine as a reference. - Ted Wilkes 22:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, you can repeat, but I can't. Anyway you're mistaken but I'm not inclined to discuss stuff with someone so quick to descend into arrogant legalistic attacks and disruptive conflation of past discussions. Either way, maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me as though you read Hillbilly as an insult to EP and have decided to back-build a "case" for removing the reference. Wyss 23:10, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

By the bye, I still think those RS references are fawning PoV but it's a music article and most prose about music is hopelessly slanted and sentimental. I don't care ;) Wyss 23:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey, let's play nice: we're all each other's sockpuppets here, remember? ;-) Hillbilly Cat seems to be in current use much more than the other monikers that Ted Wilkes has mentioned (using Google hits as a very rough judge). Would a possible comprimise be to leave Hillbilly Cat out of the introduction (as a non-fan, I'd never heard him called Hillbilly Cat, so it probably doesn't warrant being one of the first things people read about him), but expand the section on the early part of his career to briefly include all these names, explaining their origins, and explain why Hillbilly Cat has become more widely used than the others, even if they were originally on a par with regards usage? It may prove to be unnecessary detail, and after being written it may not actually warrant inclusion, but it can't hurt to try. KeithD (talk) 23:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Truth be told, Ted and I are only having a friendly talk about the esthetics of Hillbilly Cat. I think it's cool and supported, he thinks it's insulting and weakly supported enough that he can get away with skiving it out of the intro. Sigh. That was one of my favourite bits in the writing :) Wyss 23:20, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

First, Wyss knows I love her dearly. Secondly for Keith, "Current use" is the point. This is really a non-issue. It's non-encyclopedic to say someone in their early career was known as soandso when in fact it was once or twice they were called this as one of several names during a period of a few weeks. I don't even like the King of Rock and Roll on the intro line, to me, it is out of place there. Then again, like all people trained in banking, I tend to be a bit more exacting in terms of detail relevant to essentials. These things are wasting Wikipedia space that could be used for important biographical information like his drug problems that affected his health and sometimes erratic behavior 1972-1977. - Ted Wilkes 23:42, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for drug problems and erratic behavious 72-77. Let the truth about Elvis come out! Btw, good luck with our case against 141, plaintiff Wilkes!

Just for fun, look at these sites, one is Dr. John Grohol. Is he another wise Ph.D.? this, or here, or Dr. John Grohols site here - Ted Wilkes 23:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Those are all WP mirrors with scattered versions. Elvis is boring :) Wyss 23:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Onefortyone

Onefortyone continues to make controversial edits to the article by claiming literary sources, but he still has not addressed TedWilkes early call for a citation given from an Ed Greenwood book. I suggest that he first address the existing concerns to his credibility before starting new debates. Otherwise, the RFA committee should seriously look at these additional edits as evidence in his RFA. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)