Talk:Shiloh Shepherd dog

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Dispute(s)

(*Note to NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, AND ISSDC contributors: Please advise if you concur or disagree with my summaries below):

From everything I have read, it would appear, as evidenced throughout this talk page AND the article edit page, contributors representing the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC registries/clubs, have agreed/compromised/concurred regarding the following:

1)They have agreed/compromised to the inclusion of ALL currently established registries/clubs affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog, including the ISSR/SSDCA as an acknowledged Shiloh Shepherd registry/club in the article.

2)They have agreed/compromised that the article contain an acknowledgement that Ms. Barber initiated this breed and originated the standard for the breed.

3)They concur that the article content must contain "verifiable" documentation, not based on "original" research and stated only from a "neutral point of view", in agreement with Wikipedia's stated requirements for content criteria. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria)

4)They have agreed/compromised, in order to resolve this dispute and prevent potential for unverifiable, dependent, biased inclusions/comparisons/contrasts by any registry/club, including their own, to refrain from including any registry/club specific information and promotion in the article, other than to cite the existence and names of each, and to simply include ALL registry's/club's homepage website links at the bottom of the article, which will allow Wikipedia readers the opportunity to gain access, should they choose, to each of the various registries'/clubs' individual purported documentation, research, and points of view.

5)They concur that the article should NOT contain original publication of "original thought", "propaganda", "advocacy", "self-promotion", and "advertising", in agreement with Wikipedia's stated requirements for "Wikipedia: What Wikipedia is Not" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_propaganda_machine).

6)They have agreed/compromised, in order to resolve this dispute and prevent inclusion of these disallowed contents by any registry/club, including their own, to refrain from including any registry/club specific information and promotion in the article, other than to cite the existence and names of each, and to simply include ALL registry's/club's homepage website links at the bottom of the article, which will allow Wikipedia readers the opportunity to gain access, should they choose, to each of the various registries'/clubs' individual thoughts, propaganda, advocacy, self-promotion, and advertising.

7)In order to resolve this dispute and prevent bias regarding the article's descriptive contents concerning "Health", they have agreed/compromised to refrain from including any statements citing, reviewing, or comparing/contrasting ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, SSDCA, or ISSDC health practices/policies and they propose the "Health" section of the article contain only a statement listing those health issues acknowledged by ALL registries/clubs (gastrointestinal problems -gastric torsion/bloat, bacterial overgrowth syndrome- and skeletal or bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, panosteitis and osteochondritis), a recommendation by ALL registries/clubs that testing be conducted and a statement that "these reports clearly show that, as giant breeds go, the Shiloh is arguably a healthy example".

8)They have agreed/compromised that regarding "Size", "Coat", "Color", and "Temperament", there appears to be very limited dispute re: the "standards" contained therein and that the section should remain free of any statements citing, reviewing, promoting any individual registry/club and comparing/contrasting one registry/club with another.

These compromises and requested article inclusions/exclusions meet Wikipedia's policies/procedures for content criteria, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About#Wikipedia_content_criteria) in that they embrace the following:

1) Neutral(WP:NPOV)in that the article would be "representing all views fairly and without bias" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view). In FACT, there are no requests from the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC registries/clubs for the inclusion of any comparisons/contrasts (negative or otherwise) between any of the registries/clubs, including the ISSR/SSDCA, nor have they requested that any clubs other than their own, be exluded from inclusion in the article. In FACT, there has only been the request that ALL registries/clubs affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog be simply noted, with appropriate website links included at the bottom of the article. This is as "neutral" as an article contribution can get, according to any standards.

2)No Original Research(WP:PNOR). In FACT, there are no requests from any of the registries/clubs of the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC for Wikipedia's acknowledgement or inclusion of any "original research", whether it be their own or that of the ISSR/SSDCA. Again, they are simply asking that the the existence of ALL registries affiliated with the Shiloh Shepherd dog be noted, with appropriate website links included at the bottom of the article.

3)Verifiability (WP:V) In FACT, there are no legal governing bodies that allow/prevent the establishment of a dog registry or club. And yes, anyone can legally establish a dog registry/club, as evidenced by the establishment of all of those involved with the Shiloh Shepherd dog (ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC AND SSDCA). Simply put, they EXIST and they do so legally, as allowed by established U.S. law. Now, there are national/international organizations in place (AKC, UKC, FCI etc...), some of whom are registries and/or clubs in and of themselves, that have chosen to "acknowledge" some other registries/clubs. Because of their renown, an endorsement from another well-know, considerd reputable organizations tends to add positively to the reputation of that more newly established registry/club.

Nevertheless, NONE of these recognized independent bodies have the legal power or authority to secure or prevent the establishment or existence of these registries/clubs.

Most importantly, for purposes of discussion here, NONE have decided to to "acknowledge" or "endorse" any one of the Shiloh Shepherd existing registries/clubs (ISSR, NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC or SSDCA) over any of the others at this time. So, its a moot point...even if they could or do...they haven't!

Consequently, in the absence of an independent, verifiable organization's "seal of approval", the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC has agreed to acknowledge the existence of all of these registries/clubs (including an agreement/compromise that the ISSR/SSDCA be mentioned in the article as the "first" established chronologically), but not a "rating system", whereby any one registry/club proclaims its self to be exclusive, superior, approved, or official over any other registry/club.

Jareth, to accomplish your request that everyone demonstrate good faith, and since resolution requires either a willingness to negotiate on the parts of all parties involved or a stalemate, I think we would all appreciate if the contributors representing the ISSR/SSDCA would now affirm whether or not they are willing to negotiate with the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC contributors and are willing to offer any compromises or agreements in order to reach consensus. We sure would appreciate if you would ask them to respond, because without that commitment, this debate really has no where to go at this point, other than to a "judge" who can review the merits of each sides' views and make a determination as to how this article is going to finally appear. Thank you. M. Dùfy

Generic

I have just taken a quick look at the new page, and I still think that linking the ISSR with the *other* "registries" is deceitful! This makes it sound like they are all the same :>(

<< The breed now has multiple registries, including, The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), The Shiloh Shepherd Registry (TSSR), the National Shiloh Breeders Registry (NSBR), the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Association (SSBA). There are two Shiloh Shepherd Dog Clubs, the Shilohs Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA) and the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (ISSDC). For further information on all of the above Registries and Clubs please use the external links section of this article >>

I am also amazed that ALL of the other "registries" are not listed??? If you are going to do *some* .. why not ALL?

I will try to write up something a bit more honest tonight. Tina M. Barber 15:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

 I AGREE WITH MS. BARBER. IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIST ANY, OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL REGISTRY,
 THEN YOU MUST LIST THEM ALL. THERE AGAIN I MUST SAY TO LIST ALL THE REGISTRIES THAT WILL  
 ALLOW A SHILOH TO BE LISTED IS NOT AN ACCURATE ACCOUNTING TO THE PUBLIC. 
 TO WHICH YOU ARE SERVING.

67.141.45.154 19:15, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

UPDATE

I don't have time for another long post, but I would like to share a site that you can use. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm

This site also includes

ARBA = American Rare Breed Association APRI = American Pet Registry Inc. NKC = National Kennel Club

However, my research has proven that many other "registries" are also selling papers for Shiloh Shepherds!! These include, but are not limited to .....

Other All-Breed Registries:

The following is a list of some of the other all-breed registries in existence in North America — Caution should be exercised when dealing with a breeder who registers with any of these registries, especially when the breed is recognized by any of the major all-breed registries listed above. Many breeders use these registries because they are not able to meet the more demanding requirements of the CKC, AKC, or UKC.

The information shown in quotations was taken directly from the registry's web site and speaks for itself as to the goals of some of these registries.

American Canine Association (ACA) — "America's largest veterinary health tracking purebred canine registry." — Note: In the "Find A Puppy" section of their website, dog/puppy seekers are referred to pet/retail stores. Very little information is available on the website regarding their goals or mission as a registry.

American Purebred Registry (APR) — The APR issues registration certificates for dogs and cats. They start a pedigree file with the information the owner sends them. Once APR accepts an application, a registration certificate is issued and the animal is considered registered. APR is a record keeping agency only and does not sponsor dog shows, field trials or competitions of any kind. On the application, the owner certifies that the dog or cat is a purebred representative of the breed. They take the owner's word for it and no proof is required.

America's Pet Registry Inc. (APRI) — "An internationally recognized association of responsible pet owners, breeders, distributors, veterinarians, retailers, pet product manufacturers, and other concerned parties dedicated to the humane care of animals, the preservation of quality bloodlines, and the individual's right of pet ownership." APRI recently re-incorporated as a for-profit corporation. — The APRI promotes and encourages the sale of dogs and cats through distributors and retailers. "America's Pet Registry, Inc. was begun as insurance for the pet industry..." "APRI offers free dual registrations on dogs from reputable registration services to professional breeders. We classify a professional breeder as one who has three or more breeding females and who regularly sells puppies in the pet market."

Animal Registry Unlimited (ARU) — Some statements found on the opening page of their website: "We register all pets and animals." "We guarantee that your pet or animal can be registered with us." "Providing a registry for the development of new breeds of useful pets and animals. Unlike many organizations we encourage the development of new breeds."

Continental Kennel Club (CKC) — Note: This registry is also known as the CKC and should not be confused with the Canadian Kennel Club — These are two completely separate registries.) — The Continental Kennel Club recognizes 450 breeds as purebred. The Continental Kennel Club has a section known as "Miscellaneous Breed Registration" which allows for the crossing of two purebred parents of different breed types to produce hybrid puppies. Registered as MISC/BREED1-BREED2 and isolated from purebred registrations, they are distinguished from other breeds on registration certificates by having "non-purebred" printed on their registration certificates. In addition, the Continental Kennel Club has a section within their club for developing new breeds. Stock used for these breeding programs is listed in the "Development Class". The Continental Kennel Club has implemented a classified section on their site where club members can advertise their breeds. If you have a look at some of the more popular breeds such as the Cocker Spaniel, some of the kennels advertising there include breeders of cock-a-poos and other crosses. The Continental Kennel Club's website provides very little information regarding their goals or mission as a registry. For more information, however, there is a very thorough web page at: Continental Kennel Club FAQ. - Continental Kennel Club Rules & Regulations

Dog Registry of America (DRA) — (Formerly the US Kennel Club) Statements directly from the Registry's home page: "DRA Registers rare breeds and exotic breeds. DRA Registers 'Unrecognized Breeds'" "DRA registers poodle crosses such as cocker-poos, peke-a-poo's as a separate class DRA takes the red tape out of registration."Tired of registration & documentation hassles? Starting your own blood line? Lost or never had papers? Developing new breeds? Breed not recognized? DRA Registers all purebred dogs. Federation of International Canines (FIC) — (Not to be confused with the FCI - Fédération Cynologique Internationale) — From the FIC's website: "A registry founded for the preservation and continuation of all native dog breeds, in their pure forms, from all countries around the world. Currently recognizing over four hundred breeds, the FIC acknowledges the very rare as well as the better known breeds." Additional information found on the website: "The FIC is a complete registry service including, registration of individual dogs, registration of litters, certified pedigrees, sanctioned shows and matches, and conformation championships. Working titles (obedience, tracking, good citizenship, agility, dog sport, temperament test, etc.) are awarded and may be earned at all FIC shows and all shows sanctioned by the FIC. "The FIC offers special registration programs for breeds which are still in the developmental stage." "The FIC's goal is to work with breeders and owners, not against them, providing registration services that they can depend on. All paperwork is handled promptly. "Multiple dog registration discounts are available." — Offering a special discount for volume breeders.

International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance (IPDBA) — "IPDBA, founded in 1996 is the first registry of its kind, uniting breeders and enthusiasts of all breeds of dogs in one unique registry. The IPDBA is composed of Chartered Breed Associations. Each Chartered Breed Association has full control of their breed standard and the requirements for registration. The founders of the International Progressive Dog Breeders' Alliance believe that the breeding of all animals is an art form, and as such, breeders should have the freedom to express themselves and their vision for their breed(s) in their breeding programs." "The IPDBA currently recognizes more than 550 new and old breeds of dogs, making it the largest all-breed registry in the world." "IPDBA recognizes all breeds recognized for championship competition in at least one other association which has been established for the purposes of registration and exhibition of all breeds. IPDBA may accept any new breed regardless of ancestry for registration purposes provided it meets the criteria of being phenotypically different from an existing recognized breed. Acceptance may be denied if there is sound scientific evidence that there are inherent genetic problems deleterious to the health of the dogs in question which cannot be eliminated though selective breeding. Non-purebred dogs are not eligible for registration unless registered as a foundation for a breed."

National Kennel Club (NKC) — "Since 1970 the National Kennel Club (NKC) has operated to help dog owners register any purebred dog. The NKC has been fair and impartial to all breeders, dog owners, and the various breeds they represent. With the NKC rare breeds may be shown with equal status as well as the major breeds. The NKC licenses all-breed dog shows, events for Coon Dogs, Beagles, Squirrel Dogs, Bird dogs, Fox dogs, Licensed Dog Kennels, Show Judges, and other dog related-events."

North American Purebred Dog Registry (NAPDR) — "The NAPDR will register all breeds of dogs. Over 300 breeds of dogs are eligible to be registered with the NAPDR. A purebred dog that does not have registration papers may be registered with the NAPDR." If you are not 100% sure of the dog's breed, you need to send in a side view picture with the registration application. A "commercial rate" is available to breeders of five or more adult dogs of breeding age and who sell puppies.

United All Breed Registry (UABR) — "[United] is a registry service so unique that it has received two U.S. Patents, and is used to register individual animals, breeding stock, and litters; and will compliment any other registry service from the rare breeds to the AKC breeds." The UABR promotes the sale of pets through retailers — from their "About Us" page: "UNITED recommends consumers looking for a pet be advised by professional retailers who can help them make a more informed decision and can match the right breed to their situation." and "UNITED promotes retailers as a reliable source of healthy pets. We sight the "Source of Acquisition Study" published in the "Journal Of The American Veterinary Medical Association" as factual documentation that the health of puppies purchased from retailers are equal and in many ways superior to those attained from other sources."

Universal Kennel Club International (UKCI) — The following comes directly from the registry's "about us" page: "Universal specializes in registering purebred canines of all breeds and fully servicing their needs. We also register poos, hybrids and rarebreeds under special registration programs. Universal is becoming a leader in many areas of the pet industry..." and from other sections of the web site: "Universal Unique Registry System for any pure breed dog that for whatever reason is not registered in a litter or either of its sire/dam were not registered with any registry or if perhaps for whatever reason you were denied registry and your dog is at least one year old." Universal also provides bulk discounts to breeders.

World Kennel Club (WKC) — "The WKC® registers all dogs that are pure-bred only, which may or may not be registered with any other kennel club or those that have no previous history of their Sire or Dam." — Very little information is available on the website.

World Wide Kennel Club (WWKC) — "WWKC's objectives include a policy to adopt and enforce uniform rules and regulations for the improvement of all breeds. It addresses people interested in exhibiting, breeding, registering, purchasing, and selling dogs. All rules and regulations have been designed to encourage and protect the interest of its members..." "WWKC is a major registry service; registering purebred, pedigreed dog breeds, including international and rare breeds..." "The World Wide Kennel Club, Ltd. encourages breed improvement by requiring the same basic adherence to breed standards as other registry services require. However, WWKC goes one step further by offering International Registrations for all countries. WWKC recognizes and is willing to work with all registries and Clubs that are working toward the improvement of any breed. Owners of any dog registered with any other registry are invited to register and exhibit in all WWKC dog shows and obedience trials." "The WWKC recognizes all registries." "Any purebred, new breed or rare breed dog eligible for registration in any kennel club will be eligible for registration in WWKC." THE ABOVE DOCUMENTATION WAS TAKEN FROM http://canadasguidetodogs.com/breedregistries.htm Tina M. Barber 22:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I AGREE WITH INCLUDING ALL REGISTRIES THAT WILL REGISTER THE SHILOH SHEPHERD
IF YOU ARE GOING TO LIST ANY OTHER THAN THE ISSR ! REASON BEING SEEMS SIMPLE TO ME. 
THE ISSR HAS ALL THE DATA AND DOCUMENTATION. NO OTHER REGISTRY DOES. SO ANY REGISTRY OTHER
THAN THE ISSR CANNOT ACCURATELY REGISTER THE SHILOH. WHERE IS THE DATA FOR ANCESTOR LINEAGE?
MS. BARBERS REQUEST THEREFORE IS REASONABLE AND ACCURATE. 
PLEASE DON'T LIST ANY OTHER REGISTRY BESIDE OR ALONG WITH THE ISSR.
IF THE ARTICLE IS GOING TO, THEN LIST THEM ALL.

 67.141.45.154 18:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

re:UPDATE

This TB post is particularly amusing because the FIC (not to be confused with the international renowned “FCI”) is the very FIRST organization Tina Barber approached in search of Shiloh Shepherd breed recognition in 1990. Yet, she ‘includes’ their criteria listed under the DRA (http://www.dogpapers.com/) as some kind of ‘evidence’ that she’s above this supposed dubious registry? It was the FIC that originally gave her GSD’s “unique” status in the first place! The FIC organization failed but reformed again. In the interim, their recognition of the Shiloh Shepherd opened the doors to breed recognition by the ARBA (http://www.arba.org/) shortly thereafter.

ARBA (http://www.arba.org/) is likely THE most significant rare breed organization in North America. TB should be grateful for her Breed and Breed Standard (http://www.arba.org/ShilohShepherd1BS.htm) to have been accepted by them in 1991. ARBA (http://www.arba.org/index.htm) has always remained an objective show organization, veering away from ‘breed politics’ while enlisting international judges to critique breed entries as per All Individual Standards. This is not, nor has it even been, a group of amateurs.

The only other registry listed which I’m aware of Shiloh Shepherds being registered with is the NKC. (http://www.nationalkennelclub.com/) This is a well respected dog club, and Shiloh Shepherd registration with this club is simply for the purpose of show events. Shiloh Shepherds who show at NKC events MUST be registered with them. This is simply ‘their rule’. But this does not negate nor hinder a dogs registration with any but one of the ‘Shiloh specific’ registries, that being the ISSR/SSDCA. All other registries accept dual registration for the purposes of SHOW with the NKC.

I am surprised that the founder would choose to post a link to http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm . Clearly the webmaster of this site has less than flattering comments in the “Origin” paragraph. I sympathize with this webmaster. He/she has apparently experienced enough discord with the breed founder to result in the writing of an article which indulges the breed founder no specific credit for the breed at all.

Is there such a thing as a Freudian Link?

Good luck to your arbitrators.

Shiloh Supporter

re:generic/UPDATE

I'm unclear on Tina Barber's point here. The point in question for the Wiki article is whether her registry, the ISSR, should be given more status as a registry than the TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA. But she just goes on trying to prove that there are other registries out there that will register Shiloh Shepherds. That has nothing to do with the article. The list of registries that she provides are not recognized as the more legitimate all- breed registries such as AKC, UKC, CKC, FCI, but neither is her own ISSR. As a matter of fact, the paperwork for the ISSR is processed and printed by one of the ISSR's top breeders in their home, after being edited by the breed founder herself. If anything, TB's posts just further prove the point of the non-ISSR people, that ISSR is no more recognized by any true all-breed registry than TSSR, NSBR, or SSBA.

Gloria 4.248.44.59 14:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

YOU ARE CORRECT GLORIA. SHOULD THE ISSR BE GIVEN EXCLUSIVITY 
OR MORE STATUS THAN ALL OTHER REGISTRIES, THAT REGISTER SHILOHS?
THE ANSWER AGAIN IS QUITE SIMPLE;  "YES" WHY? WHAT OTHER REGISTRY HAS THE DATA AND   
DOCUMENTATION TO PROPERLY AND ACCURATELY REGISTER THE SHILOH? THEREFORE MS. BARBERS STATEMENT  
OF ALLOWING(THEREBY ACKNOWLEDGING) ANY OTHER REGISTRY BUT THE ISSR IS FRAUDULENT TO THE  
CONSUMER. THAT IS THE POINT "WIKI" SHOULD BE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND LISTEN TO. 
THE "WIKI" IS HERE TO BE AN ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, HONEST AVENUE FOR THE PUBLIC 
TO COME TO FOR INFORMATION. ALLOWING OTHER "SELECTED REGISTRIES" 
WHO CANNOT POSSIBLY RIGISTER ANY SHILOH WITH ACCURACY OF LINEAGE IS LUDECRIS.

67.141.45.154 18:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

As has been requested multiple times, please provide any source or reference for these claims. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 19:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

HI JARETH, MS. BARBER HAS PROVIDED MANY SOURCES OF REFERENCES. 
ONLY TO HAVE YOU ASK FOR THE IMPOSIBBLE, A THIRD PARTY VERIFIABLE REFERENCE. 
WHAT THIRD PARTY CAN SUBSTANTIATE THE RECORDS OF THE AKC? OR THE UKC? OR ANY OF THE KENNELL 
CLUB REGISTRATIONS. HOW ABOUT THE DULY ELECTED BOARD MEMBERS OF THE ISSR? WOULD THEIR 
TESTIMONIAL SUFFICE? LET ME ASK YOU THIS, IF  THIRD PARTY VERIFIABLE RESOURCES ARE WHAT YOU 
ARE LOOKING FOR TO SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIMS OF THE ISSR, THEN WHY NOT ASK THE OTHER REGISTRIES 
THE SAME? THEY CANNOT PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTATION AND DATA WITH ANY HISTORY OR ACCURACY ON THE  
DOGS THEY ARE REGISTERING. AGAIN, IF THIS CANNOT BE PROVIDED BY EITHER PARTIES IN DISPUTE TO 
YOUR SATISFACTION, THEN LIST ALL REGISTRIES AS MS. BARBER HAS SUGGESTED. WITH SOME 
INVESTIGATION AND READING ON THE PART OF AN ARBITRATION BOARD OR JUDGE, I BELIEVE THAT YOU 
WOULD FIND COMPELLING EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE MANY CLAIMS THAT THE ISSR AND SSDCA TO HAVE
MADE. HISTORY, CONSISTENCY AND MAGNITUDE ALONE WOULD BE ENOUGH CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE TO 
CONVINCE EVEN THE MOST SKEPTICAL.

72.1.70.194 22:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Actually I can find quite a few third party sources for AKC data -- about their museum [1], detailed info on the charity they run [2], their recognized breeds [3], encylopedia entries [4], court cases [5] and honestly, that's without even trying - I hadn't even started on newspaper references yet. So the fact is that most subjects notable enough for inclusion in an encylopedia have sources to rely on other than their own statements.

The fact is that anyone can become a registry. So maybe what we need to look at here is the question of notability. The ISSR was obviously the founding registry and should be noted as such. Are there any compelling reasons to include other registries? There's certainly no reason to attack them in the article, but perhaps they should just be linked in the external links section or perhaps not included at all. Back to the German Shepherd example, they do list several registries in reference to their particular standards and then have links to a few breed clubs. I'd have to look through other dog articles to see if this is typical, but I'll have to get to that later when I don't have to run home from work ;) .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 22:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

 JARETH, I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK. I WAS INCORRECT, OF COURSE YOU CAN FIND 
THIRD PARTY REFERENCES TO THE AKC AND THEIR DOG BREEDS. ALL DOGS REGISTERED WITH THE AKC ARE 
FINISHED. THEY ARE NOT UNDER DEVELOPMENT. YOU ARE CORRECT THERE IS NO REASON TO 
ATTACK OTHER REGISTRIES IN THE ARTICLE. 
OBVIOUSLY LISTING THE ISSR AS THE FOUNDING REGISTRY IS CORRECT.
AN INDEPENDENT WRITER WILL FIND THAT TINA M. BARBER IS THE UNDISPUTED BREED FOUNDER.
I BELIEVE ONE OF THE REASONS THE ISSR IS SO ADAMANT ABOUT WHICH REGISTRY IS PRONOUNCED IN THE 
ARTICLE, IS IT IS A BREED STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT. I REALIZE THIS WAS DISCUSSED EARLIER. 
WHILE IN IT'S DEVELOPMENT STAGE IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALL BREEDING MATCHES BE CAREFULLY WATCHED.
THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH EXTREMELY ACCURATE HISTORICAL DATA AND RECORDS. WHICH THE ISSR HAS.
IN THE CASE OF THE GSD ARTICLE LISTING SEVERAL REGISTRIES IN REFERENCE TO THEIR STANDARDS,
THIS MAY BE DUE TO THOSE BREEDS BEING FINISHED. AGAIN, THE SHILOH SHEPHERD IS STILL UNDER 
DEVELOPMENT. AND OF COURSE YOU CAN HAVE LINKS TO A FEW BREED CLUBS.

72.1.70.194 23:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Straw Poll

Please review the proposal Talk:Shiloh_Shepherd_Dog#Dispute(s). I'd like to take a quick survey of the people involved in the page since no direct comments on the proposal have been received. Please sign your name using three tildes (~~~) under the position you support, possibly adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion".

Support all points

69.173.135.114Miles D.

NobleAcres Gloria

Support all points ShenandoahShilohs 13:58, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Dartagnan

Support all Points. Wendy Fullerton Windsong Kennels/Raid the Wind Kennels. I have been involved with Shiloh Shepherds from the beginning plus two years previous while they were still registered as German Shepherds. WindsongKennels 16:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all Points. Diane K. McClure, Raid the Wind Kennels. Raid the Wind Kennels 17:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all Points. Becky Althoff Gateway/Catoctin Shiloh Shepherds since 1996. Iamgateway

Support all Points. Gwyllgi 00:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all points. See comments below. Elf | Talk 02:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Elf: May I ask if you are one of the people affiliated with the "WikiProject Dog breeds" that Jareth has requested as an outside, unaffiliated (w/Shiloh Shepherds) observer to comment on this discussion? 69.173.135.114 08:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Miles

Yes (see my note posted below under "Discussion"). So is Trysha. You can find both of our names in the history pages of many many dog breed articles, mine since January '04 and Trysha not quite as long. Elf | Talk 22:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all Points. PJBJ

Support all points. I concur with Elf below - Trysha ^(talk) 06:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Trysha: May I ask if you are also one of the people that Jareth has requested as an outside, unaffiliated (w/Shiloh Shepherds) observer to comment on this discussion? 69.173.135.114 08:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Miles

(She is--see my response above--but I'm sure she'll respond, too. :-) Elf | Talk 22:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC))

Suppport all points. Trevor.sawler 14:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all points. ShilohSupporter 22:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Support some, but not all points

I believe the "other" clubs/registeries should have the real reasons for their formation and/or split from the ISSR listed. It is my opinion that the public has a right to know why they are not willing to follow the original plan in developing the Shiloh Shepherd. Tony Matzke 04:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Reject all points

I'm not quite sure just how we're suppose to vote here, so I will say it again. The ISSR is the ONLY organization that can hand out valid Shiloh Shepherd papers. If your getting your papers from anywhere else the dog could be anything else. I reject these and any other registry other than ISSR. 67.186.153.43 11:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)Katy Schuele

AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE. I MUST REJECT ALL POINTS. 67.141.45.154 19:41, 
28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Discussion

---Per your question below (Jareth asked: Also, are't the registries currently listed only registering Shilo Shepherds, or am I reading incorrectly?), you are correct and I propose that ONLY these registries/clubs limited to the registration of Shiloh Shepherds be included, that is NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, ISSDC, ISSR, and SSDCA. 69.173.135.114Miles D.

I think that EACH registry willing to issue papers for the Shiloh Shepherd should be included!! Tina M. Barber

I believe the article is about Shiloh Shepherds, thus the listing of the Shiloh specific registries who's sole function is the Shiloh Shepherd Breed. I have no issue with listing the ISSR as the first of these registries. 152.163.100.132 14:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)ShenandoahShilohs 14:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The Shiloh Shepherd registries include the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA and the ISSR. All these registries share the same Shiloh Shepherd ancestry as developed by Tina Barber. The NSBR, TSSR and SSBA were developed by former ISSR breeders which chose to leave the ISSR organization, primarily not because they want to breed away from the Shiloh Shepherd Breed Standard, but because they could not longer work with the ISSR's leader. Many of the dogs registered currently with the non-ISSR registries were once fully recognized and registered Original ISSR Shiloh Shepherds. It was only after their owners departed the ISSR organization that these same dogs were declared non-Shilohs and not worthy of the name "Shiloh Shepherd". To take it even one step further, there have been littermates declared as either an Original ISSR Shiloh Shepherd (as this owner was part of the ISSR organization) or a non-Shiloh mutt (as this owner declined to be part of her organization).

Therefore, it is only fair that all the Shiloh Shepherd registries be listed as part of this article. For the purposes of this article, I feel this list should concentrate primarily on the registries which focus on this breed and not every dog registry in the world that will accept the breed. I'm sorry, I forgot to hit the sign code for the previous post Dartagnan

THANKS TO THE WIKI, I AM WORKING ON ANOTHER *BIG* WEB ARTICLE, SOME OF THIS WILL ALSO BE PUBLISHED IN A MAG!! I THINK THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW THE TRUTH!! PLEASE LOOK AT http://www.shilohshepherds.info/originalISSRrules.htm If you read this & the ISSR rules carefully, dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get BREEDING PAPERS ... PERIOD!! Dogs that are AKC GSD's cannot get ISSR papers making them *INSTANT* Shiloh Shepherds ... DOGS RESCUED FROM SHELTERS CANNOT BECOME "SHILOHS" AND BE BRED!! Get it?? That's why the ISSR rules are so hard to follow .. but without them .. all you have is a GSD MIX!! PERIOD!! Tina M. Barber 17:18, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Could we calm down please? What on earth does this have to do with the registries? I'm especially curious since a number of them you recently provided for inclusion offer papers to any dog as long as a veterinarian states their breed. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 17:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

FROM WIKIPEDIAS POINT THEY MUST TRY TO ALLOW THE MOST ACCURATE INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE,
IN THEIR ARTICLES. RIGHTLY SO. THE PUBLIC COMES TO THEM FOR HONEST ACCURATE INFORMATION. 
WHERE WE THEN CAN PONDER AND MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES.
A) ONLY THE ISSR SHOULD BE LISTED. WHY? THEY HAVE THE 
1) HISTORY
2) DOCUMENTATION ON RECORD WITH THE TCCP IN TEXAS
3) ACCURATE DATA ON THOUSANDS OF SHILOH SHEPHERDS. 
   INCLUDING GSDS WHOM WERE USED IN THE FOUNDATION 
   OF BUILDING THE SHILOH SGEPHERD
4) ONGOING GENETIC HEALTH SURVEYS GOING BACK MANY MANY YEARS
  
B)IF YOU ALLOW ANY OTHER REGISTRIES TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED, THEN WIKIPEDIA IS CONTRIBUTING 
  TO THE FRAUDULENT DECEPTION OF THE PUBLIC. IS THE DOG BEING REGISTERED SOMEWHERE OTHER
  THAN WITH THE ISSR, A REAL SHILOH SHEPHERD? OR A GSD MIX? 
  YOU CANNOT BE SURE WITHOUT ACCURATE DATA OVER TIME. PLEASE CONSIDER THIS WIKIPEDIA, IN   
  RESEARCH, EXACT ACCURACY CANNOT ALWAYS BE ATTAINED. WHAT DOES THE MEDICAL FIELD DO AS AN  
  EXAMPLE? RESEARCH DATA OVER TIME. ASTUTE RECORD KEEPING. ONLY THE ISSR HAS THAT.

C)IF BY SOME MISTAKE THE WIKIPEDIA ALLOWS OTHER REGISTRIES TO BE LISTED IN THEIR ARTICLE,
  THEY MIGHT AS WELL LIST THEM ALL.

67.141.45.154 19:41, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Behind all of the posts, there are really two main issues. The first, is the Shiloh Shepherd a Breed of dog? I think it has clearly been proven that with every Rare Breed Show organization accepting them as a Breed, as well as all health organizations, all National Canine Magazines, and the general public, that issue should not even be an issue. Second issue; Is the ISSR the only registry? Obviously that is not the case. Since 1991 Barber sold these dogs to the general public as a Breed of dog. They were advertized by her as well as many other breeders through the years as a Breed of Dog. The Shilohs were deemed public domain as a Breed of Dog by the US Patent and Trade Mark office. As a Bred of dog, the general public has the legal right to do what they want with them. Once Barber stopped selling the dogs as Shiloh kennles German Shepherds and called them a new Breed, she no longer had the legal right to mandate what others did with the Shiloh Shepherds that they purchased. Through the years for what ever reasons, other Shiloh Shepherd specific Registries were formed and are operating, period. Since 1997 the ISSR is not the only Shiloh Shepherd Registry.

If Barber had continued to sell a line of German Shepherds from her kennel then maybe there would be an arguement. Since this is not what she did, and choose to seek Breed status, and thus named them Shiloh Shepherd, all of the rest is a moot point.

We could go all day on what registry has the most dogs, or who is better, but that has no berring on this article.

This dispute has been going on for years, and I am sure will continue, and will never be resolved as to some it is personal. This article is to be about the dogs, it is not to glorify any one person or registry. Each has there own links and with those links the general public can be educated and make thier own determination as to what they want.

ShenandoahShilohs

The dog-breeds project has dealt often with newer & minor breeds in contention, and we have consistently arrived at the conclusion that, to present information in an NPOV manner, articles must address the fact that there is contention but in as simple a way as possible--e.g., "ISSD claims to be the only legitimate registry for SSDs, but other registries dispute this." (Or whatever the summary is.) It's a fact, hence it's not debatable. I think your proposed list addresses this, but I felt it was worth stating again. Elf | Talk 02:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's end this foolishness, OK?

I have confirmed that the following organizations WILL issue 'registration papers' for Shiloh Shepherds, therefor I request that they be added to the list of "registries" that the Wikipedia has compiled.

ACA - American Canine Association http://www.acavet.com/

APR- American Purebred Registry http://www.americanpurebred.com/

APRI - American Pet Registry Inc. http://www.aprpets.org/main/index.php

ARU - Animal Registry Unlimited http://friendpages.com/cgi-bin/public/pages/cover.cgi?pageid=animalregistry

CKC - Continental Kennel Club http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/

DRA - Dog Registry of America http://www.dogpapers.com/

FIC - Federation of International Canines http://www.ficregistry.org/mainpage.html

INPDBA - International Progressive Dog Breeders Alliance http://ipdba.8k.com/

NAPDR - North American Purebred Dog Registry http://www.napdr.com/

UABR - United All Breed Registry http://www.unitedregistry.com/

UKCI - Universal Kennel Club International http://www.universalkennel.com/

WKC - World Kennel Club http://www.worldkennelclub.com/

WWKC - World Wide Kennel Club http://www.worldwidekennel.qpg.com/

All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs! I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!

However, I do request that you mention that the ISSR, Inc. (formed in 1991) was the original registry started by the Breed Founder.

Thankyou Tina M. Barber 15:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, I have to point out "I have confirmed" does not meet the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia. Also, are't the registries currently listed only registering Shilo Shepherds, or am I reading incorrectly? What use could there be to listing all dog registries in the article? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact, only one of those registries you provided links to lists the Shiloh as a recognized breed and two others state that they will register any dog/cat/animal you send a registration for. I have no idea what this is supposed to add to the article. Can you please explain why you'd want to add them? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 16:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Jareth, the reason she wants to include these other registries is simple. She is simply trying to discredit the other Shiloh registries. She feels that if Wiki is going to list the other Shiloh registries,(rather than just the ISSR) then you might as well list a whole slew of other registries to cloud the issue. PJBJ

Lets try to avoid discussing other editors and focus on the article please. Also, it helps if you sign your posts using ~~~~. Thanks! .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

SORRY, ALLOWING ANY OTHER REGISTRY WOULD CLOUD THE ISSUE. AS I HAVE STATED. 
WIKIPEDIA WOULD AT LEAST BE DOING THE PUBLIC A FAVOR BY SHOWING THE RIDICULOUSNESS 
OF ALL THESE REGISTRIES. WHEN THE PUBLIC INVESTIGATED AND FOUND OUT THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO  
IS SEND IN AN APPLICATION WITH A CHECK AND THE NAME OF THE SIRE AND DAMN, THEN WHA-LA YOU 
MAGICALLY RECEIVE A WORTHLESS REGISTRATION PAPER IN THE MAIL. 
AGAIN, WHERE IS THE DATA FROM ANY OF THESE OTHER REGISTRIES TO ALLOW YOUR SHILOH 
(OR ANY DOG) TO BE REGISTERED? 

67.141.45.154 19:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Might I point out that it was Tina who suggested we add all these other registries? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

OH I UNDERSTAND JARETH. I WAS BEING SOMEWHAT FACETIOUS WHEN I WAS POINTING OUT 
THAT IF WIKIPEDIA LIST'S SOME, THEY SHOULD LIST ALL. I AGREE WITH MS. BARBER.
HAVING A HALF A DOZEN LISTED OR THREE DOZEN CLOUDS THE ISSUE. 
ACTUALLY, SANDRA SS MAY HAVE FOUND THE ANSWER FOR WIKEPEDIA. 
HAVING AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY WRITE THE ARTICLE USING ANY AND ALL 
INFORMATION AVAILABLE SUCH AS WAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE GSD. 
WE WILL WAIT TO HEAR FROM MS. BARBER AND THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE OTHER GROUPS.

72.1.70.194 22:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Jareth: Question re: the Straw Poll "Discussion" Section

I am confused. In Ms. Barber's entry above, "Let's end this foolishness, OK?", she listed numerous "registries" and said: "All I ask is that these be included in your list of "registries" that are willing to issue papers for these dogs! I think this is only fair .. that ALL should be represented!!" AND in her first entry under "Straw Poll-Discussion" she said: "I think that EACH registry willing to issue papers for the Shiloh Shepherd should be included!!"

But in her 2nd entry in "Straw Poll-Discussion" above, she says: "If you read this & the ISSR rules carefully, dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get BREEDING PAPERS ... PERIOD!!."

Yes, this does seem entirely contradictory to her earlier two statements. Maybe what she meant to say was "ISSR dogs that do NOT meet the specific requirements set by the ISSR cannot get ISSR BREEDING PAPERS...PERIOD!!!." If that's the case, okay, that's a rule of the ISSR and the NSBR, TSSR, and SSBA registries/clubs respect her right to determine her registry/club rules as she sees fit and are very comfortable with the idea that they no longer want their dogs affiliated with the ISSR. But how is that particular ISSR requirement post at all relevant or appropriate to the Straw Poll (i.e. the listing of registries in this article)particularly in light of the fact that Ms. Barber has already very clearly "voted" twice that she would like to see all registries listing Shiloh Shepherds be included?

I also respectfully support requesting that Ms. Barber calmly clarify her position one way or the other and that any other extraneous remarks (by anyone), not related directly to your specific questions in the Straw Poll, be posted in a more appropriate place. This way, we can all view the poll results clearly and move positively and respectfully forward towards resolution. Thank you.69.173.135.114Miles D.

Actually the Discussion section is just for discussing the poll/proposal, so the comments don't hurt anything there. Actually, she hasn't voted on it yet -- in any case, polls are really only useful for showing a consensus which we're starting to see. I'm going to try to direct a few other outside editors this way and get some opinions from people who haven't been involved in the dispute. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 19:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Question for Windsong /RaidtheWind

I'm sorry but the numbers don't seem to add up. After reading your reply that

"Wendy Fullerton Windsong Kennels/Raid the Wind Kennels. I have been involved with Shiloh Shepherds from the beginning plus two years previous while they were still registered as German Shepherds. WindsongKennels 16:38, 28 December 2005 (UTC)"

After reading this I went back and looked at the old Shiloh Shepherd (Kennel) Dog World ads from the 70's and 80's that are on the Shiloh Shepherd website. They consistently state that Tina Barber has been breeding her dogs exclusively since 1962. Since they were originally published in a verifiable outside source (Dog World), that should be documentation from a neutral source that she has been developing her line for nearly 44 years. Please tell us how you could possibly have been around the Shiloh world even before Tina was breeding dogs in 1962?

(attack removed)

65.37.31.237 19:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)M.Bush

What I left is still rather uncivil, please review WP:EQ for suggestions on how to politely discuss the article -- please be aware that personal attacks are absolutely not acceptable and may result in being blocked. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 20:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Attn: Moderators. How unfortunate and sad that a member of the ISSR/SSDCA has chosen to resort to such an inappropriate personal attack. Please remove this garbage immediately and the poster along with it. Thank you. 69.173.135.114M. Duffy

I AGREE JARETH, PLEASE CONTINUE TO DELETE PERSONAL ATTACKS. 
"M.DUFFY", DO WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT THE AUTHOR IS A MEMBER OF
THE ISSR/SSDCA? NO WE DO NOT! PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MAKING AN 
UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM. EVEN IF SIGNED AS A MEMBER WE ALL KNOW THAT
NO ONE PERSON REPRESENTS THE ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP OR CLUB. THAT WAS A
CHEAP SHOT M.DUFFY. THE SAME COULD BE SAID OF MEMBERS OF THE OTHER 
REGISTRIES AND CLUBS.

70.35.121.154 02:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Please, Willie, enough with locking your Shift key. Re: Your constant use of UPPERCASE LETTERS, Wikipedia (see Wiki's "Talk Page Guidelines-Layout)says "These are considered SHOUTING, and contribute to the view that you are RANTING!!!!!". Please, we can all hear you just fine in "lower case". Thank you. 69.173.135.114 07:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Miles

To answer the question of M. Bush in the appropriate place, I will copy the answer here. I respectfully clarify my original comment. Jareth, please move or remove as you deem proper. I was referring to when the Shiloh Shepherd was recognized as a rare breed in 1991, not 1974. There were no "Shiloh Shepherds" (the breed) in 1974, just Shiloh Shepherds (the kennel) that bred GSD's, a.k.a. Shiloh Shepherds Kennel, a.k.a. Shiloh Farms. And yes, I did get my first Shiloh Shepherd (GSD) from Shiloh Kennels in 1989 when they were still breeding and selling GSD's, her name was Windsong's Cheyanne D'Shiloh and she is/was a registered Shiloh Shepherd (ORA-C3-7072) as I turned in her AKC papers to the ISSR and they gave me ISSR papers for her in 1992, so she was a Shiloh Shepherd (the breed). I got Trinka (Windsong's Katrinka D'Shiloh) in 1991, the first year the breed was recognized. Hence my comment. WindsongKennels 01:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Article Suggestion

Jareth,

In my opinion, in order to have a completely UNBIASED article (as per Wikipedia's rules), you will have to find someone totally uninvolved with Shiloh Shepherds to write it. That person will have to do the research from the websites available and go from there. These 2 groups will never agree on the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. This fighting has been going on for well over 10 years, it isn't about to stop now.

Again, my opinion, but I would like to see the history of the Shiloh Shepherd be the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. Lets look at the GSD Wiki page, In the history section, it states who the breed founder was, when he developed the dogs, what his goal/vision was and the name of the registry he started as the official governing body for the breed. It does not list all the registries that now register dogs as GSD's. I would like to suggest that the Shiloh Shepherd history be written up similar.

"The breed was originated by Captain Max von Stephanitz in the late 1800s and early 1900s. His goal was to breed an all-purpose working dog. The first registered GSD was Horand v. Grafrath [1]who was bred from Grief Sparwasser whose coat color was white. Von Stephanitz admired the landrace herding dogs of his native Germany, and believed they had the potential to be all-purpose working dogs. Additionally, he was aware of the declining need for herding dogs and believed that the working abilities of the breed would decline unless it was put to other uses. Von Stephanitz created the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde [2], or SV as the official governing body for the breed. The SV then created the schutzhund trial as a breed test for the German Shepherd Dog, and prohibited the breeding of any dog which could not pass the trial."

Since it has been stated numerous times that the Shiloh Shepherd became its own separate breed in 1991 when ARBA recognized it as such, could someone please explain how the other registries are relevant to the history of the breed when they didn't exist until 10 years later.

SandraSS 21:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

THERE YOU HAVE IT. I CAN AGREE WITH SANDRA SS. 
AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE GSD ARTICLE WOULD BE ACCURATE
AND NON DECEPTIVE TO YOUR PUBLIC.

72.1.70.194 22:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

To start, good overuse of captial letters WL.

Since more than 50% of the shilohs being brought into this world are being registered thru the TSSR/NSBR/SSBA but without the ISSR and an ISSR "licensed breeder" makes the inclusion of the registries and clubs relevant. The correct way to have this article written is not thru the deletion of the parties invovled with the breed (that WL would be deceptive). Given the fact that Wendy, Gloria, Judy, Patti, etc were all likely with the breed long before many of you even came along makes the separation of the two groups very relevant in the history section.

Although some users have chosen to list a wide variety of registries that may perform the function, I'd like to know how many shilohs outside of the ISSR/TSSR/NSBR/SSBA are registered in that countless list. The simply truth is that 99.9+% of all registered shilohs are covered between the 4 registries. What makes a registry valid is it's membership. It's recognized by those who are active with the bre

Well said. Dartagnan

NO ONE SUGGESTED WRITING THE ARTICLE WITH DELETION OF THE  PARTIES INVOLVED WITH THE BREED.  
THE FOUR PERSONS YOU MENTIONED MAY HAVE BEEN WITH THE BREED LONGER THAN MYSELF. SO WHAT. STICK 
TO THE SUBJECT, IF YOU CAN. FOR YEARS THESE FOUR PERSONS  AND NO ONE ELSE, HAVE BEEN HELL BENT
ON DISCREDITING TINA BARBER AND THE ISSR. IT DIDN'T WORK  WITH THE UKC, IT HASN'T WORKED IN  
OVER 10 YEARS, AND IT WON'T WORK WITH WIKIPEDIA. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH. THAT IS WHY I FEEL AN
INDEPENDENT WRITER WITH WIKIPEDIA SHOULD RESEARCH AND  WRITE THE ARTICLE. GREAT IDEA. 
WIKIPEDIA CAN HAVE IT FROM HERE. GOOD LUCK.

72.1.70.194 00:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Jareth, again an ISSR/SSDCA contributor, Mr. Willie Lass, is personally attacking a contributor by claiming that because Dartagnan has chosen to use a "pen name" rather than her birth name (well within Wikipedia rules), she is "hiding behind lies and deceit". Could you please again censure the contents of this personal attack and advise Mr. Lass of proper conduct. Thank you MilesMiles

 "Jareth", the use of caps was merely to distinguish, not to yell. Sorry. 
  "Miles", I was referring to the letter written prior to Dartagnan, 
  the one Dartagnag agreed with. I stand with my statement.

````Willie Lass

Willie, I'm confused about which of your statements you're standing with: Is it the one where you said "A)ONLY THE ISSR SHOULD BE LISTED." (see #6.4 "Straw Poll Discussion") or is it the one where you said: "NO ONE SUGGESTED WRITING THE ARTICLE WITH DELETION OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED WITH THE BREED.: (see #10 "Article Suggestion" following Dartagnan's "Well said")? Could you clarify your position for us, please?

Also, may I please make another observation. When you go to post and place your cursor in the edit "box" if you leave spaces between the left margin and your first word (maybe by hitting the space bar), this may be why your posts are ending up looking the way they do on the Talk Page. If you do want to "indent" your message, you can do so by again placing your cursor on the first space by the left margin and simply type a colon (:) and begin writing your first word (with no space - example :The tree) or two colons (example ::The tree...). After you are finished with your post and have selected either "Show Preview" or "Save Page", the system will automatically indent either a little (:) or a little bit more (::). Hope this helps, but maybe Jareth can give you the Wiki page (I've forgotten where it's located) which can explain this more clearly than I can. 69.173.135.114Miles

Actually, the article on the GSD further states: After WWI, British and American soldiers, impressed by the abilities of the dog, brought home examples to breed. The breed instantly become popular, both as a family pet and as a working dog. To this day, the German Shepherd Dog is considered one of, if not the most intelligent and versatile breeds in existence.

It clearly shows in the history that others furthered the breed by taking them to America and England. Thus the same with the Shiloh Shepherd. Some facts: While the ISSR was founded in 1991 as the first Shiloh registry, it was only 6 short years later that the first non ISSR registry and club was formed. Thus the ISSR was only the sole Shiloh Registry for 6 years while there have been non ISSR registries for 8. These non ISSR registries have grown and are most definetly registering more litters per the stats posted on the ISSR website. Further to show relevance per The ISSR's own web site's breeders matrix, from 1991 to 1997 when the first new club was started, there are 24 non ISSR breeders listed, and only 5 ISSR breeders.

There is a larger number of non ISSR breeders that have been continually breeding since the Shiloh Shepherd became a breed than ISSR breeders.

As it is worthy of mentioning in the GSD article that dogs were brought to America and England to further the GSD, it is also worthy of mentioning that the popularity of the Shiloh Shepherd also had dogs and breeders leave the original registry to further the breed.

ShenandoahShilohs

Jareth, please see my request above re: Mr. Lass's personal attacks which follow "To start, good overuse of captial letters WL". Thank you. MilesMiles

Let me try to clarify a few misconceptions. There are no independent unbiased editors working for Wikipedia -- you are all Wikipedia and are all editors, Wikipedia is based on thousands of volunteer editors working together to write this encyclopedia. Surely if editors can find compromise on pages like George W. Bush we can do the same here -- I know that everyone here feels very strong about their opinions, but we should still try to work for a resolution that everyone can be comfortable with. It is up to all of you to reach a consensus about the page.

There is no place in this discussion, or any discussion on Wikipedia, for attacks directed at another person or editor. I cannot stress this enough. You must find a way to discuss your opinion of the article without making comments about the other editors -- like my grandmother always says "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." That's a great rule to follow here. I will remove all personal attacks on sight and you will get blocked if you refuse to stop these attacks -- this behavior has gone on far too long. If you cannot behave civily, find another forum for your discussion; Wikipedia is not the place for diatribes and bickering.

Everyone is welcome at Wikipedia. It doesn't matter if someone uses their real name, a pen name or edits from an anonymous ip address -- each editor has as much right to contribute as any other. If someone's work is constantly unproductive, such as those who vandalise or break other policies, they may be blocked from editing regardless of what name or identity they use to edit. If an editor doesn't agree or believe they can follow the policies that Wikipedia uses, they might find it better to contribute elsewhere.

So in short, lets treat each other with respect and come to a compromise. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 01:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

BRAVO SANDRA SS!!!!!!! Finally the voice of reason!!! I would only make *one* tiny correction ... that CAN be fully verified (even via their OWN sites) The "other" "registries" did NOT start 10 years ago .. .. If I recall correctly, the NOW DEFUNCT ISSDC/r started in 1998, and closed shop in 2000? Since that time the other "registries" were formed by various "breeders" that could not agree with each other. The *new* ISSDC was not started until the summer of 2004. Tina M. Barber 02:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

A Proposal

I posted this on Dec. 10th with the only point of dispute being that in my original post I stated that that membership in the new ISSDC is free. (It was pointed out that that was only for the first year, ending now.) Why can't these facts be incorporated in the History section?

1. The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by Tina M. Barber.

2. The Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America (SSDCA), founded in 1991, was and continues to be the original Shiloh Shepherd breed club, with chapters across the US and Europe.

3. The International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR), started in 1991, is the original registry and has been continuously registering Shiloh Shepherds since that time.

Both of these entities are associated with the breed's founder, Tina M. Barber.

4. Foundations for another breed club, the International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club (original ISSDC), began in 1997 with that club coming into existence in 1998 and starting its own registry in early 1998.

5. The original ISSDC and its registry closed down in 2001.

6. With the close of the ISSDC's registry, various smaller registries were formed from what remained.

a. The NSBR was started in 2001 according to their own website.  
b. The TSSR started in 2002. 
c. The SSBA, which seems to include many of the same breeders as the NSBR, was also formed.

These smaller registries formed because the breeders could not get along with each other after the ISSDC's registry was closed, not because they had just recently ended their association with Tina M. Barber or had recently been breeding within the ISSR.

The NSBR and the TSSR have their registry rules and regulations on their websites. The NSBR's rules are pretty lax, the TSSR's more strict. The SSBA currently does not publish their rules on their website.

7. Another attempt at forming a breed club, the new ISSDC, was made in mid to late 2004.

This would seem to satisfy all parties.

Trillhill 03:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You left out a few important points, Karen, since you insist on using POV. One big point is WHY most of the breeders who were ever in the ISSR felt they needed to leave the ISSR and start their own registry. That's certainly a big part of the history. The main reason that the ISSR has so few breeders left, as per TB's own matrix, is because of the lying and the stealing and the insanity going on in the ISSR. In order to breed these magnificent animals to the standard that TB once wrote and to the principles by any ethical breeder, we all had to leave the ISSR. I have a stack of court judgments here (my own included) that are against TB and her kennel that date all the way back to 1990. I didn't look any further back than that. I can post them on my website if anyone would like to see them. That's why we left and that's why we have new registries which have more breeders and produce more litters than the ISSR does. We have higher standards and we share genetic information, not hide it for fear it will reduce puppy sales. And that's why it's so important that the other registries are included in this article, because we are the part of history that turned the Shiloh Shepherds back around to what they should be. And as for the ISSDC as an "attempt" to form a breed club, we're biiger and stronger than the SSDCA because we have most of the SSDCA mebers here now. NobleAcres Gloria

Attn. Jareth! ! Ms.Gloria is once again making derogatory remarks and being uncooperative.
Just when we were beginning to make some headway, Ms. Gloria wants to continue to be 
disruptive. Why some breeders leave or join a club or registry is not a part of the history. 
I respectfuuly request that you delete remarks in her letter referring to court
documents etc. Also, Ms. Gloria is making unsubstantiated claims of how many litters are
produced, their club is bigger(unsubstantiated hearsay) etc. Which has no bearing on this  
discussion or you final decision of how the Shiloh Article should appear on Wikipedia.

72.1.70.194 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Willie Lass

Article Suggestion: Response

SandraSS said: "I would like to see the history of the Shiloh Shepherd be the history of the Shiloh Shepherd. Lets look at the GSD Wiki page, In the history section, it states who the breed founder was, when he developed the dogs, what his goal/vision was and the name of the registry he started as the official governing body for the breed. It does not list all the registries that now register dogs as GSD's. I would like to suggest that the Shiloh Shepherd history be written up similar."

SandraSS also said: "Since it has been stated numerous times that the Shiloh Shepherd became its own separate breed in 1991 when ARBA recognized it as such...."

Willie Lass said:"THERE YOU HAVE IT. I CAN AGREE WITH SANDRA SS. AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN THE SAME MANNER AS THE GSD ARTICLE WOULD BE ACCURATE AND NON DECEPTIVE TO YOUR PUBLIC."

Ms. Barber said "BRAVO SANDRA SS!!!!!!! Finally the voice of reason...."

My response:

I.

1)The German Shepherd Dog article Sandra has stated she would like to see the Shiloh article modeled on (with Mr. Lass's and Ms. Barber's stated approvals), in fact, does list many all-breed registries, which register GSDs, including the: AKC (American Kennel Club), the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club), the KC (Kennel Club -located in London and the oldest of the world’s all-breed kennel clubs-see Wiki article), the NZKC (New Zealand Kennel Club) and the UKC (United Kennel Club, which is the second oldest all-breed registry of purebred dog pedigrees in the United States and the second largest in the world-see Wiki article). These are autonomous registries that are not governed by the first GSD registry (the SV).

2)The German Shepherd Dog article also lists two GSD-primary organizations, including: the SV (the "first" GSD-only registry founded around 1899), and the USA (United Schutzund Club of America incorporated almost 80 years later in 1978) (resource: Mr. Nathaniel Roque - current V.P., USA Executive Board of Directors - I will provide Nathaniel and my correspondence if Jareth wants a confirmation date on USA date of incorporation). Both of these organizations are registries and have clubs.

3)The USA is an autonomous nonprofit organization(see: USA website “Constitution and Bylaws–http://www.germanshepherddog.com/members/USA_ByLaws_2005.pdf)

4)"The United Schutzhund Clubs of America Inc. [USA]is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the "Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)" in Germany and is strongly devoted to create and promote the German Shepherd Dog in its original breeding as a working dog. The United Schutzhund Clubs of America Inc. is a member of the "World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs" and accepts the by-laws of this organization in regards to the breeding rules of German Shepherd Dogs." (see:http://germanshepherddog.com/breed/index.htm)

5)The USA asserts independence from the exclusive control of the SV and is guided by some, but not all, SV policies/ procedures (see: USA Constitution and Blylaws: Article III "Performance Regulations: Numbers 1-5 at http://germanshepherddog.com/members/USA_ByLaws_2005.pdf). The USA also maintains that as "a member of the "World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs" it "accepts the by-laws of this organization in regards to the breeding rules of German Shepherd Dogs" for physical characteristics such as height, measurements, character, etc. (see: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/regulations/breed_standard.htm).

6)The USA registers dogs and has established a club with affiliated regional clubs(see:USA Constitution and Bylaws: Article II "Objectives": Number 4 "Estblish a Breed Registry for German Shepherd Dogs" -(see: http://germanshepherddog.com/members/USA_ByLaws_2005.pdf) and it does not require GSD registration in the the "first registry" (SV) to qualify for registration in the USA (see: http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/individual_registration.htm)

7)The USA has membership requirements, breeding regulations, and a board of directors, etc...(see: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/). It conducts both its own dog shows and allows its dogs to participate in other registry's/club's events (You can show a dog at a USA show in Schutzhund on Monday and show him again for conformation (physical "beauty" if you will) at Westminster’s AKC show on Tuesday).

Summary: With regard to a comparison of the GSD article and the Shiloh article, I would say: a) The USA is an nonprofit registry/club organization that has asserted independence from the control of the "first" (the SV)and, that while guided by some of the standards of the "first" club, they are legally autonomous from it and have registries, affliated clubs, membership requirements, breeding regulations, and boards of directors. Likewise, the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC are nonprofit registries/clubs that have asserted independence from the control of the "first" (the ISSR), are guided to by some of the standards of the "first" club, but remain autonomous from it and have registries, affiliated clubs, membership requirements, breeding regulations, and boards of directors. b) The USA is acknowledged and referenced in the GSD article and their direct website link is included at the bottom of the article. The NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC inclusion in the Shiloh article should be handled in the same and equal manner. c) As the SV is acknowledged in the GSD article as the "first" so too has the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC agreed to acknowledge the ISSR in the Shiloh Shepherd article as the "first". And as, the "founder" of the GSD, von Stephanitz, is acknowledged in the GSD article, so too has the NSBR, TSSR, SSBA, and ISSDC agreed to acknowledge Ms. Barber as the "founder" in the Shiloh Shepherd article. d) And as the various registries/clubs acknowledged in the GSD article are not compared to one another in terms of superiority or quality in the GSD article, the same should also hold true for the registries/clubs listed in the Shiloh article.

II.

Sandra also asked: "...could someone please explain how the other registries are relevant to the history of the breed when they didn't exist until 10 years later".

Definition: History "2 a : a chronological record of significant events (as affecting a nation or institution)" (Merriam-Webster – see http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/history)

Consider the following events in American history? These innovators/innovations came long after the "first" settlers discovered this land; many of them were seen as being "renegade/sliver" ideas or people by our "first" American "developers" and to our "original laws", and were considered traitorous, disloyal, a threat to the "status quo" and the control of the "powers that be", and hindering to the "development" of America:

1776-The 13 Colonies sign the Declaration of Independence which leads to the Revolutionary War 1787-The U.S. Constitution is written 1752-Benjamin Franklin discovers electricity 1865-13th Amendment outlaws slavery 1870-15th Amendment establishes the right of African American males to vote 1920-19th Amendment gives women the right to vote 1924-American Indians granted citizenship and the right to vote 1941-45-The U.S. is engaged in WWII 1969-American astronauts land on the moon

Would you consider these innovators and changes to be relevant and important "contributions" to both the history of United States as it was then and as it is today? Thank you. Miles

Questions

When people are looking for their first Shiloh Shepherd or conducting research on this breed, don't you think they deserve the right to equally access any and all information about all the Shiloh registries/clubs so they can have the opportunity to make their own informed decisions, rather than only being "allowed" to see information about "one source" or being spoon-fed "one source's" opinion about other registries/clubs, particularly when those registries/clubs are competitors of that "one source"? Even if people eventually decide that "one source" is better in comparison with others, and even if that is true, shouldn't people be given that choice to make for themselves? People don't need to rely on any one registry/club to tell tell them which registry/club is better or be asked to trust solely in the claims of one registry/club...people should be given unbiased, equal access to links for all 4 registries and 2 clubs and then be trusted to use their own critical thinking and resulting judgments (not any particular registry's/club's exclusive point of view) to decide what's best for themselves. None of these 4 registries/ 2 clubs should ever try to retain loyalty or gain patronage by attempting to squelch information about each other. Rather, they should feel secure enough about their dogs and their visions to not fear competition, use their own websites to promote their individual philosophies and practices, breed and show the best dogs they can, and let the chips fall where they may.

Isn't this what Ms. Barber's slogan "Investigate before you invest" (quoted by her on the ISSR/SSDCA web site-see: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/investigate.htm) actually means....to fully and comprehensively observe or study by close examination and systematic inquiry all available information about the Shiloh Shepherd breed and then make a decision? AND Ms. Barber's quote "Always remember that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!" (again, quoted by her on the ISSR/SSDCA web site-see: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/siteMap.html), isn't she clearly asserting that with knowledge or education one's potential or abilities in life will probably increase" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_is_power); that is to say that knowledge (and the more the better) benefits peoples' potentials and abilities to make their own thorough and informed decisions about this breed, it registries, and its clubs but reading all of their websites, chat rooms, etc.? There's just no need to hide these 4 registries/2 clubs from view or add opinions when they're mentioned in the article....Just let the reader link to the individual websites if they so choose and then decide. In the end, all 4 registries/2 clubs should feel confident that it will all come out in the wash. Thank you. Miles

Article Suggestion Clarified

Jareth,

I would like to clarify my earlier point and say again that the "history" section of the GSD Wiki page does not list every registry that registers a dog as a GSD. Once again, it is limited to the name of the breed founder, when he developed his dogs, what his goal/vision was for starting the breed, and the registry he started to keep records of his dogs. I have also looked at numerous other breed pages on the Wiki and note that the history section is limited to the history of how the breeds originated.

Here is a proposed version for the history section of the Shiloh Shepherd, based on how the GSD page is done (and in reviewing other breed pages).

The Shiloh Shepherd was developed by breed founder Tina Barber of Shiloh Shepherds Kennel in New York state in a sustained effort over the last third of the 20th century. Her goal was to preserve the type of German Shepherd she remembered as a child in Germany. Those dogs were big, mentally sound, and beautiful. In 1990, Barber separated her dogs from the AKC and in 1991 created the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR) (based on Von Stephanitz's SV) as the official governing body for the breed.

As the breed gained recognition and popularity near the turn of the millenium, new registries and clubs began to form, each having their own vision for the future of the breed.

The existing registries and clubs can all be listed in the external links section of the article. People will be free to visit them and make their own decision from there.

SandraSS 18:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

That does fit the format of most of the other dog breed articles. What does everyone else think? Would this be an acceptable proposal? Obviously the consensus is swinging in favor of having the registries included -- could we do it in this manner like the other dog articles and give readers the chance to form their own opinion based only on the links instead of what we might write (which doesn't seem like it will ever be NPOV)? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 14:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

response

"attn. jareth! ! ms.gloria is once again making derogatory remarks and being uncooperative. just when we were beginning to make some headway, ms. Gloria wants to continue to be disruptive. why some breeders leave or join a club or registry is not a part of the history. i respectfuuly request that you delete remarks in her letter referring to court documents etc. also, ms. Gloria is making unsubstantiated claims of how many litters are produced, their club is bigger(unsubstantiated hearsay) etc. which has no bearing on this discussion or you final decision of how the shiloh article should appear on wikipedia."

being uncooperative? from the looks of things, many have been part of this discussion for weeks now and their positions and comments are equally valid. it doesnt take a genius to see there is a lot of emotion behind many editors. how are any of gloria's comments any different from the countless links to the wall of shame that has been linked many times here.

you wrote "unsubstanciated claims?". from the issr website approximately 25 litters per year are being produced (with over 40% of those coming from the barbar kennel). from the issr website, of the 38 currently "licensed" breeders, 25 of those have joined since 2000. Of those 25 breeders, only 5 litters have ever been produced in half a decade. and of those 13 (exluding the barbar kennel) currently "licensed" breeders that were present prior to 2000, five have never even produced a litter, and five have produced a single litter.

what makes the information unsubstanciated? with the nsbr alone, in 2001 there were 15 litters, in 2002 18, in 2003 24, in 2004 26, and something like 30 in 2005. add to this the litters registered under the other issdc affiliated registries. simply because these numbers are not currently published on some website makes them no less valid.

the above is not to discredit anyone, issr or non-issr. none of this is said with a derogatory intent. this is not to make any of the registries seem larger or smaller, but simply to show that there are clearly two main clubs and four registries involved with the breed. they all deserve placement in this article, and all are part of this history of this breed. the article cannot possibly be complete without it including the separation of the two groups (the "two groups" is pretty evident in this discussion) regardless of what may be included in other breed articles. in my opinion, this will allow the public to know when they go searching further for a shiloh they have a head start in know that there are two group involved.

the issr, ssdca, issdc, etc are all welcome to create wiki links to articles just on their clubs, registries and would seem to make sense. it would allow for a npov article, listing the main clubs and registries, and help to find more info on each. but the main article, as already covered, is to be with a neutral point of view.

Hobo dogs question

Article says that breed attempts to resemble "Hobo" dogs but no info is given on what those are/were. Can someone explain? Thanks. Elf | Talk 19:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

After some googling, I think I found it - these dogs are some GSDs from The Littlest Hobo, and it seems that they are featured in a series of dog training and education books by Charles Eisenmann [6], I updated the article a tiny bit to reflect this, but someone who knows more should update it accordingly to clarify. - Trysha ^(talk) 20:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this article will explain what I mean by "the Hobo dogs" ... it also includes TONS of great pics ;-) http://www.shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm Tina M. Barber 23:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

To the Person Considering a Shiloh Shepherd -- by Stu Tarlowe

First of all, I am not neutral. I am a Life Member, since 1991, of the SSDCA (Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club of America). I have known Tina Barber, aka "Ma Shiloh", the Breed Founder of the Shiloh Shepherd, since the mid-1980s.

At that time, I was disappointed in the way the German Shepherd Dog breed had deteriorated, and I heard that there were a few breeders still producing "old style" GSDs, and that one of them was near Buffalo, NY. That was all I had to go on, but I managed to track Tina down and began corresponding with her.

I was impressed by what she was trying to accomplish, as well as by her knowledge of genetics and experience in dog breeding, and by her passionate belief in her own vision.

Although I researched and investigated other breeders, after visiting Tina's kennel in 1990 I decided to have her provide me with a puppy. Tina and I had a long discussion of what I wanted in terms of size, coat, coloring, markings, and temperament, and she delivered exactly what I wanted. That pup ("Buick") turned out to be the handsomest, smartest, best dog I have ever owned.

I don't think anyone can dispute that Tina Barber is the Breed Founder, and that without her there would be no Shiloh Shepherd.

I can understand why she gets emotional over these disputes, because the Shiloh Shepherd is her vision, her passion and her life's work. I can understand her lashing out at those who compromise that vision and threaten to undermine that life's work.

When I got my Shiloh Shepherd from Tina, I gave her my word that he would not be allowed to mate without her express approval.

Quite simply, that should be her privilege as the Breed Founder. Dogs that are produced with her approval and her blessing are registered with the ISSR (International Shiloh Shepherd Registry) . That is the original registry for Shiloh Shepherds.

Any dog that is NOT registered with the ISSR was produced without the approval and blessing of the Breed Founder, or that approval was revoked because the breeder failed in some way to keep to the agreement he or she made with Tina. I kept my word to Tina, as did those breeders whose dogs are registered with the ISSR.

Those who did not keep their word, and were therefore ineligible to register their dogs with the ISSR, have found other ways to keep producing and selling "Shiloh Shepherds", including starting their own registries. There are all kinds of rationalizations for doing this, but none of those change the fact that they have done so AGAINST the wishes of the Breed Founder.

How can dogs be called "Shiloh Shepherds" if they are produced WITHOUT the blessing and approval of the person who "invented" the Shiloh Shepherd? To call such dogs Shiloh Shepherds is just an attempt to benefit from Tina Barber's name and reputation, without her permission.

If a breeder wants to breed without the approval of the Breed Founder, why not just call those dogs something other than "Shiloh Shepherd"? To say that they have a "right" to that name because it's not copyrighted may be technically legal, but it is certainly not ETHICAL. It shows a lack of respect for the person who started it all.

And, as the person who started it all, Tina Barber, and she alone, should determine the direction in which the Shiloh Shepherd should go.

To the Person Considering a Shiloh Shepherd, I would say the following: Never mind all the accusations and insults that are traded back and forth; they don't change the fact that there are breeders who operate WITH the approval and blessing and consent of the Breed Founder, and those who DON'T.

Registry with the ISSR is what makes a dog an authentic and genuine Shiloh Shepherd.

Everything else may be a very close replica, but it is not genuine. Nowadays, most people who sell "counterfeit" or "replica" merchandise are required to disclose that fact. In the case of dogs sold as "Shiloh Shepherds", it's the ISSR registration that provides proof that you're getting "the real thing".

Consider this: Most people know that the most celebrated violin-maker of all time was Antonio Stradivari.

A genuine "Stradivarius" violin commands a very high price, so much so that many other violin-makers have copied his work and labeled their instruments "Stradivarius". The copies may be decent instruments, but they have no connection with Stradivari and are therefore not genuine. They merely trade on the name and reputation of Stradivari.

It takes a detailed examination by a violin expert for a prospective buyer to determine if an instrument that is called a Stradivarius is, indeed, a genuine Stradivarius. For a prospective buyer to determine if a dog is, indeed, a genuine Shiloh Shepherd, all it takes is insistence that the dog is registered with the ISSR.

Stu Tarlowe 22:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the history lesson on the violin but I thought this was about writing a unified article for the Wikipedia encyclopedia on the Shiloh Shepherd, a living animal, not an inanimate object. I think focus is needed here. Advocating for or expressing feelings for people here is unproductive and I think there is a proper forum for that elsewhere. Many people are happy with their puppies. I am glad that you are happy with yours. But again, that is not the reason this forum was established. Analogies as well as statistics can be manipulated in anyway that one sees fit...again, unproductive and wheel spinning. I think if people want to post, it should be in reference to editing the article so consensus can be reached. This is getting very redundant.....lets focus. Shiloh Shepherd....the article for Wikipedia on the Shiloh Shepherd. I think Wikipedia is growing weary of it all. I know I am. Iamgateway

And just a side note to let you know how analogies or statistics can be "manipulated". Actually, Andrea Amati was one of the earliest known violin makers, or the "creator" of violins. His violins are priceless, selling to the likes of Charles IV of France, housed in museums across the world, viewed and revered by all masters of the violin. So in reality, Antonio Stradivari was a "sliver" that actually created a "violin" off of the originators' "idea" of what the ideal violin should look like, sound like and behave like when played. He then "improved" upon Amati's original model to became the most famous of violin makers, but certainly not the "founder" of the violins. What does this make Stradivari? I wonder, should he have called the violin that he created something different. Hmmmm, so does that make the Stradivari nothing more than a "copy cat" that tried to steal Amati's design and idea of the perfect violin? Does this discredit Stradivari and all his violins as nothing more than a copy cat of the originators, to be scowled at and ignored in our history books as substandard to Amati's. Very interesting. (Ok, I know, unproductive, but another good lesson on the violins!) Iamgateway

---

To me this proves Stu's point about the Shiloh Shepherd. Stradivari did NOT call his violin an Amati. I don't think Tina or the ISSR people would be so upset if people called their dogs something else OTHER THAN Shilohs.

Also, for the little it's worth, I don't understand why it should be okay to mess with a dogs (any dogs!) genetics just because they are not an inanimate object and can't be trademarked. In fact, that is why I think they should be more protected. I don't think everyone should be able to breed just because they want to. Especially with a breed under development like the Shiloh. How do you get to a consistent size,health, temprement, etc. if everyone is doing their own thing?

Carol Ritchey

________________________ I respectfully disagree. Stradivari did indeed call his instruments "violins". He did not call them "Stradivari's". The public coined them "Stradivari's" as a reference to who "made" them. They became known as a "Stradivari" because of the shop they came from and the well-known reputation they held. His name became famous because of the prestige of owning one, not because Antonio Stradivari insisted on calling his violins by his namesake. Customers decided, for themselves, where they wanted to get their "violins" by researching, looking, listening and making their own choice as to which violin they liked best. The public used the namesakes so others knew where they got their violins, not to dispute whether it was a violin. Many, many others violin makers surfaced, each indisputably making "violins" but only a few were remembered Giuseppe Guarneri, Nicolo Amati, and Stradivari, to name a few of the historically remembered ones. Namesakes are not thrown around because each designer insisted on prefixing their violins with their names, no, it was the public who choose to use the namesake because of the reputation of quality that came with and followed that name. The quality of the violin created the "name dropping". It was not the demand of the designer, it was the pride of the public in the ownership of such a quality piece.

Analogy: Each kennel breeding shilohs creates their own reputation because of the quality of the shiloh dog they produce to the written standard. Of the four or five well known registries, the majority follow and use the same standard as the breed founder. I think only one registry changed the standard, the rest continue to use the same "vision" that the breed founder wrote for the breed. So, in short, the public will decide what shiloh kennel "namesake" they will choose to buy from, boast upon, recommend and remember.

Also, another side; if someone goes into Amati's shop and purchases a violin from Amati, just because they walk out of that shop and leave never changes the fact that what they own is an Amati violin thru and thru. Amati can't suddenly dispute that particular violin's namesake and say it was no longer an Amati. No kennel can sell a dog from their kennel and suddenly say, it is no longer their dog.

You see we can go back and forth all day on "analogies" all day, twisting and turning them to fit what we want them to, so lets start talking about the Shiloh Article and take energies to concensus for the Wikipedia write-up and lay aside the "analogies".....its about the article, on Shilohs, not history lessons on violins!! Iamgateway

More Answers

PATTY SAID

<< It clearly shows in the history that others furthered the breed by taking them to America and England. Thus the same with the Shiloh Shepherd. Some facts: While the ISSR was founded in 1991 as the first Shiloh registry, it was only 6 short years later that the first non ISSR registry and club was formed. Thus the ISSR was only the sole Shiloh Registry for 6 years while there have been non ISSR registries for 8. >>

TINA'S REPLY

ROTF ... Talk about "smoke & mirrors" ... WOW!! Now let's look at some *varifiable* FACTS!

1. The ISSR was formed to CONTINUE the data collection that I started in 1974!! When it was set up I had documented data on MY breeding stock going all the way back to the 60's ... all of this was incorporated into the ISSR database!! Therefor ... the information that we have goes back for OVER 40 YEARS .... not "6" as you have stated!

2. The ISSDC/r did not start till 1998, and was CLOSED DOWN in 2001!! Most of those breeders scattered at that point, some returning to the ISSR (via the amnesty) while others went back to breeding AKC GSD's ... etc. ONLY the NSBR started another 'registry' that most of the former ISSDC/r breeders did not agree with because her "rules" were so lax!

This is a copy of the legitimate document sent to Mr. Cavanaugh, president of the UKC!

Please take a moment to review a FEW "highlights" from the http://www.shilohshepherds.com/letterToUKC.htm

Is that correct?? Does this mean that all GSD/mixes may now enter your "new breed" UKC Shiloh Shepherd genepool? Colleen Gott states on her website that

<<**Paragon's outcross program** The Shiloh Shepherd is a breed that was created by intense line breeding and inbreeding of AKC German Shepherds many years ago. In fact, at one time, all of the dogs in our Shiloh Shepherd pedigrees were AKC registered German Shepherds, with the exception of the first outcross used years ago, Secret Samson Woo. After using Secret Samson Woo, who was not a purebred German Shepherd, Rare Breed recognition was applied for and granted. The kennel name "Shiloh", at which these breedings took place, was the name given to the new Rare Breed that was created - the Shiloh Shepherd. Now, once more, has come the time for an introduction of new blood as many years of linebreeding have taken place again. In an effort to overcome some of the intense line breeding and over usage of the same dogs up so close in our pedigrees, Paragon Shepherds is introducing into our breeding program, dogs that contain the "Old" lines from the very early days of the Shiloh Shepherd breed, that made the breed what it is. These dogs, AKC German Shepherds, with the Old Original lines, also contain a splash of new blood from German-German Shepherd lines, American-German Shepherd lines and some Czech lines. >> (http://www.paragonshilohs.com)

How can you consider this hodgepodge as a legitimate breed definition?

<<OUTCROSS. a. The outcross must be of the German Shepherd family with a three generation pedigree and must be bred to a Shiloh Shepherd.>>

What does German Shepherd “family” mean? Any GSD/mix?

The fact that you would even consider recognizing this motley mix as a separate breed is an insult not only to the definition of Breed but also to every owner of a purebred dog.

3. Furthermore, let's take a good look at the word *BREED* ... I don't think that *anyone* will dispute that every credible organization does NOT consider a dog to be "purebred" unless it has at least 3 generations of PURE lineage!!

Yet these "registries" constantly encourage "outcrossing" (nice word for MIXING IN ANYTHING) in order to produce more pups .... please take a look at THIS quote from the above mentioned letter!

<< <<OUTCROSS. a. The outcross must be of the Shepherd family and must be bred to a Shiloh Shepherd>>

http://www.shilohregistry.com/rules.html

Even the hybrid breeders are not pleased with this development because the serious ones take great care in properly screening their prospective new owners and properly socializing all of the pups they produce! Please take a moment to read just one short excerpt that explains how most of them feel.

<<Does it matter what a wolf-dog hybrid is called? What 'breed'/type designation is used? In some cases it matters very much. When breeders try to disguise the fact that the animal is part wolf from their buyers and the public (for whatever reason), it may be a FATAL error. More often it is fatal to the animal than the breeder/owner, however.>> The Wolf Is At The Door, Inc. - What's in a name?

<<Developing dog breeds may be at risk of unplanned integration of wolf hybridization by unscrupulous breeders. One such case being what devoted Shiloh Shepherd enthusiasts refer to as the rape of the Shiloh Shepherd by wolf-dog hybrid breeders. The Shiloh Shepherd breed is not, and was never intended to be a wolf-dog hybrid breed. However, due to a few unscrupulous breeders, there are wolf-dog hybrids being sold under the name of Shiloh Shepherd>> (http://www.wolf-to-wolfdog.org/name.htm)

OF COURSE AFTER INVESTIGATING THE FACTS ...THE UKC *REFUSED* THE APPLICATION!!!

THIS IS NOTHING NEW!! Puppy "producers" have been trying to pass off their GSD mixes as "Shiloh Shepherds" for years now!! The only thing that protected the consumer was the ISSR!! So how did they "get around" this problem??? Why, they started *their OWN* "registries" and now they are even trying to get EQUAL BILLING with the ISSR!! Please take a moment to read ........ http://www.shilohshepherds.info/newsletters/notGSD.pdf For more verifications, please view our http://www.shilohshepherds.info/newsletters/ssdcaNewsletters.htm

Tina M. Barber 23:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, NPOV and links to self written web links filled with propaganda, none of which is relevent to the article. What part of personal links are not considered verifiable sources or neutral POV is not understood? I am beginning to feel like I am trapped in the movie Ground Hog Day, the same thing over and over again. ShenandoahShilohs

response to mr. tarlowe

mr. tarlowe, that is definitely a very nice personal testimonial about the breed founder, but does not provide facts, but point of view. im sure some will agree with you, while others will not. some will read more into these discussions through the archives and form a different opinion. hopefully if nothing more it will guide the public to research this breed closely prior to chosing where to get their shiloh. read about the issr, read about the issdc, and then they can draw their own conclusions. regardless i respect your passion about the breed.

you state "those who did not keep their word, and were therefore ineligible to register their dogs with the ISSR, have found other ways to keep producing and selling "shiloh shepherds", including starting their own registries". why not elaborate more on that claim you just made. otherwise, it's point of view aimmed towards those not part of the issr group.

The facts speak for themselves! http://www.shilohshepherds.com/buyersBeware/registyComparisons.htm Tina M. Barber 13:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

you also state "if a breeder wants to breed without the approval of the breed founder, why not just call those dogs something other than "Shiloh Shepherd"? To say that they have a "right" to that name because it's not copyrighted may be technically legal, but it is certainly not ETHICAL. It shows a lack of respect for the person who started it all". an interesting statement, however im curious how shilohs born from a line of issr shilohs are suddenly non-shilohs simply because the issr didnt get their cut. or how a shiloh that was registered as an issr shiloh and then leaves is no longer considered a shiloh?

The ISSR doesn't get a *cut* it just sets the RULES that have to be adhered to in order to produce quality Shilohs ... those that just breed GSD's are NOT following the recipe, therefor the pups they produce are JUST SHELPERDS! I actually read the same question on the King forum this morning ... How can a "breeder" pick up a litter of cheap $200 GSD pups, and then print off a piece of paper that claims they are King Shepherds & sell those pups for thousands of dollars!!! I replied to the forum that it happens all of the time ... actualy even MORE often with the Shiloh!!  :>( ````

leaving a breed this size at this stage in the hands of an individual would seem foolish. let's just say something happened where the founder was no longer able to continue, for whatever reason, by your statements the breed would be over since only the breed founder has the ability to call a shiloh a shiloh. unless the breed founder is methuselah our time here is short.

HOGWASH! All ISSR breeders follow the same recipe, and Lisa is only 28 years old, a LOT younger then most of you .. and knows as much about these dogs as I do ... she has been LIVING it since birth!! Tina M. Barber 13:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC) Furthermore, I honestly don't know of ANY *young* breed still under development that has had to deal with all these "registries" before it was even set!! Tina M. Barber 13:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

for whatever reason the founders of the three non-issr regstries and issdc left are their business and thankfully the breed is stronger for it, and will ensure a successful future of the shiloh shepherd beyond our years. i'd recommend against making statements like the one you did as they are counter productive and without substance.

This is not an *attack* just a FACT ... I took another look at the list of ISSR breeders & compared it to those in your camps & have determined that ours are YOUNGER then yours!!! So what kind of sanity does this statement make?? Besides, how long do you think the "breed" would survive if dozens of people are selling GSD mutts as Shiloh Shepherds?? Tina M. Barber 14:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

the violin story was nice. some may prefer the guarnerius to the stradivarius. sadly there is something like 600 strads remaining in existence today, and when they are gone - they will be gone forever. which would be the case with the shiloh if the breed founder was the only one to decide what is and what is not a shiloh. The ISSR determine what IS & what isn't!! http://www.shilohshepherds.info/shilohShepherdsWhatRThey.htm Tina M. Barber 13:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC) also, the comparison between an inanimate object and a living being doesnt really hold true here since it's dna being carried thru the lines and can replicate unlike the wood used in the violins of the 1700s.

these arent object to be authenticated and signed off like baseball cards. they are a breed of dogs being born to a breed standard. A BREED STANDARD THAT I WROTE, AND ISSR BREEDERS FOLLOW!! http://shilohshepherds.info/breedingGenetics.htm Tina M. Barber 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Some very good points made here. I wonder if anyone told all the Americans and the rest of the world that they can't call thier dogs German Shepherds since they didn't stay registered with the SV? Did anyone notify AKC the GSD's they have registered for decades are fakes, and mutts? I guess with some people's thoughts the German Shepherd should no longer be a Breed since Max vS is no longer alive to RULE the breed he created. ShenandoahShilohs

In all honestly, a LOT of people still think that the SV should have prevented the GSD from getting into the AKC because they don't like what has happened to the American Show Dog just search the web ... you will easily find lots of web pages that show breeders STILL following the *old* rules!! The average consumer is not being fooled either ... they CAN CHOOSE to get an "American GSD, or a German GSD" Atleast they have less chance of being fooled into getting an impure mix! Tina M. Barber 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Support all points and NSBR

As the owner of the NSBR I would like to discuss the following:

Support all points - I support the article with the listings of each of the Shiloh Registries. The ISSR, TSSR, NSBR, SSBA

and the inclusion of the two Shiloh clubs, the SSDCA and ISSDC

Miles Duffy wrote: Since more than 50% of the shilohs being brought into this world are being registered thru the TSSR/NSBR/SSBA but without the ISSR and an ISSR "licensed breeder" makes the inclusion of the registries and clubs relevant. The correct way to have this article written is not thru the deletion of the parties invovled with the breed (that WL would be deceptive). Given the fact that Wendy, Gloria, Judy, Patti, etc were all likely with the breed long before many of you even came along makes the separation of the two groups very relevant in the history section.

Mr. Lass wrote: NO ONE SUGGESTED WRITING THE ARTICLE WITH DELETION OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED WITH THE BREED. THE FOUR PERSONS YOU MENTIONED MAY HAVE BEEN WITH THE BREED LONGER THAN MYSELF. SO WHAT. STICK TO THE SUBJECT, IF YOU CAN. FOR YEARS THESE FOUR PERSONS AND NO ONE ELSE, HAVE BEEN HELL BENT ON DISCREDITING TINA BARBER AND THE ISSR. 72.1.70.194 00:01, 29 December 2005 (UTC)WILLIE LASS

Judy writes: Mr. Lass, your negative statement about me is incorrect. I do not bother saying anything about Ms Barber, therefore I request that it is removed. ShilohshepherdJudyShilohshepherd

Ms Barber wrote: BRAVO SANDRA SS!!!!!!! Finally the voice of reason!!! I would only make *one* tiny correction ... that CAN be fully verified (even via their OWN sites) The "other" "registries" did NOT start 10 years ago .. .. If I recall correctly, the NOW DEFUNCT ISSDC/r started in 1998, and closed shop in 2000? Since that time the other "registries" were formed by various "breeders" that could not agree with each other. The *new* ISSDC was not started until the summer of 2004. Tina M. Barber 02:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Judy write: Ms Barber, the NSBR was not started because of any disputes with other breeders. It was started because many breeders did not want to return to the ISSR/SSDCA after the ISSDCr closed due to personal reasons. ShilohshepherdJudyShilohshepherd

Karen wrote: These smaller registries formed because the breeders could not get along with each other after the ISSDC's registry was closed, not because they had just recently ended their association with Tina M. Barber or had recently been breeding within the ISSR. The NSBR and the TSSR have their registry rules and regulations on their websites. The NSBR's rules are pretty lax, the TSSR's more strict. The SSBA currently does not publish their rules on their website. Trillhill 03:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Judy writes: Karen, again, your comments are incorrect. The NSBR did not start because of breeder problems, see my answer above to Ms Barber. And.. the NSBR rules were exactly the same as the ISSR rules. Does that mean that you are now stating the the ISSR rules are lax also? ShilohshepherdJudyShilohshepherd

Mr Lass wrote: Attn. Jareth! ! Ms.Gloria is once again making derogatory remarks and being uncooperative. Just when we were beginning to make some headway, Ms. Gloria wants to continue to be disruptive. Why some breeders leave or join a club or registry is not a part of the history. I respectfuuly request that you delete remarks in her letter referring to court documents etc. Also, Ms. Gloria is making unsubstantiated claims of how many litters are produced, their club is bigger(unsubstantiated hearsay) etc. Which has no bearing on this discussion or you final decision of how the Shiloh Article should appear on Wikipedia. 72.1.70.194 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)Willie Lass

Judy write: Bravo Mr Lass, you are correct. Why breeders left the ISSR/SSDCA does not belong in this discussion. Now, will you remind me why you keep putting me down? As to the club/registry numbers, I have submitted mine and they are correct as they appear on this discussion. This only means that we do, in fact, deserve equal billing. ShilohshepherdJudyShilohshepherd

M Duffy wrote: None of these 4 registries/ 2 clubs should ever try to retain loyalty or gain patronage by attempting to squelch information about each other. Rather, they should feel secure enough about their dogs and their visions to not fear competition, use their own websites to promote their individual philosophies and practices, breed and show the best dogs they can, and let the chips fall where they may. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!" There's just no need to hide these 4 registries/2 clubs from view or add opinions when they're mentioned in the article....Just let the reader link to the individual websites if they so choose and then decide. In the end, all 4 registries/2 clubs should feel confident that it will all come out in the wash. Thank you. Miles

TINA'S REPLY, ROTF ... Talk about "smoke & mirrors" ... WOW!! Now let's look at some *varifiable*

2. The ISSDC/r did not start till 1998, and was CLOSED DOWN in 2001!! Most of those breeders scattered at that point, some returning to the ISSR (via the amnesty) while others went back to breeding AKC GSD's ... etc. ONLY the NSBR started another 'registry' that most of the former ISSDC/r breeders did not agree with because her "rules" were so lax!

Judy writes: Tsk, tsk Ms Barber... you have been beating on the NSBR quite a bit lately, haven't you? The breeders that came to me for help have mostly stayed. Several breeders decided to raise the health testing bar, and for that I commend them. I have been here, using the exact rules you have used for all this time. Only differences, we kept the DNA program and help the breeders to think for themselves. It's the USA afterall. ShilohshepherdJudyShilohshepherd

Let's be honest here ... I have quoted *directly* from your site!! The ISSR has never allowed dogs of the *SHEPHERD FAMILY* (this could include thousands of dogs presently in shelters that just "resemble" shepherds) to get ISSR papers!! The ISSR has extremely strict rules that all breeders must adhere to ... those that don't loose their right to call the pups they produce "Shiloh Shepherds" .. it's as simple as that!! I think this UNBIASED site has done a wonderful job with their 'explanation' http://canadasguidetodogs.com/shiloh.htm Tina M. Barber

Ooops

Judy said: "Miles Duffy wrote: Since more than 50% of the shilohs being brought into this world are being registered thru the TSSR/NSBR/SSBA but without the ISSR and an ISSR "licensed breeder" makes the inclusion of the registries and clubs relevant. The correct way to have this article written is not thru the deletion of the parties invovled with the breed (that WL would be deceptive). Given the fact that Wendy, Gloria, Judy, Patti, etc were all likely with the breed long before many of you even came along makes the separation of the two groups very relevant in the history section."

Judy, Miles Duffy didn't write this, so could you please remove my name (since they didn't sign you could probably just substitute "No-Sign wrote:") I have noticed a couple posts the last day or so where the contributor has not signed their message, so that's what probably threw the thread off. So, could everyone please make sure to sign your posts. If you don't know how, you can do so by putting three tildes (~~~)at the end of your post (ex: Now is the time for all~~~) Thank you.69.173.135.114Miles

Pictures speak louder then words!

Take a moment to look at http://shilohshepherds.info/whatIsAShilohShepherd.htm

Then compare the pictures in this old article to another more recent ISSR article http://shilohshepherds.info/brokenHeartedBreedFounder2004Update.htm

Then take a look at what the "new" "registries" are producing http://shilohshepherds.info/cherryBlossom2004Collage.htm

Then go to http://shilohshepherds.info/SiteMapfaqBeforePurchasingAPuppy.htm

If anyone here bothers to investigate, they can clearly see that the Shiloh Shepherd is NOT "just" a GSD!!

If you just want a synopsis, try http://shilohshepherds.info/shilohHistory.htm Tina M. Barber