Talk:Historical Shia-Sunni relations

Now, lets just wait for Zora to vfd it. --Striver 23:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

lol. Youre right.--Zereshk 23:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I put a POV tag on it. This page is unencyclopedic. I also suspect that many educated Shi'a would find it risible. Zora 00:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You are welcomed to point out where the page lack encyclopedic qualities, so that we can fix the problem and have a good and encyclopedic page. We both are eagerly waitning your input, expecting them to come equaly fast as the pov tag came. --Striver 02:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and regarding this, this is a Zereshk & Striver joint project, and we both support the facts writen here. You are encouraged to bring a Shia that contests any of the claims in the article, or try to falsifie any of it. It really isnt hard to find anti-Shia propaganda, or quotes what the old Sunni scholars thought of us, its the Salafis full time job to educate everyone of it.--Striver 02:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

She actually called us "uneducated"...--Zereshk 05:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah...

"It feels to me like a grotesque waste of time and energy to negotiate with the mentally deficient and psychologically impaired."^{Zora on Brandons talkpage}

However, i seems like Zereshk is geting the idea, everything is not up to here. It is not ok to remove what Shias belive are important, dissmising them as fables and pov just because she hasent heard of it.

Brandon, I think I've figured it out. Striver and Zereshk enjoy conflict, enjoy writing something outrageous (poking me) and seeing how I will react. See the talk page on Historical Shi'a-Sunni relations. I always respond, due to my dogged insistence on trying to make Wikipedia "good" (by my standards). I have to let go of that. I just will not deal with them for a while, and see what happens. It's up to the rest of you to deal with Shi'a bias and Striver's spelling and grammar. I need to step back. I'll see how it goes if I just work on other articles for a while. ^{Zora on Brandons talkpage}

--Striver 12:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I mean, its great that she has started to educated herself by reading some books about shias, like madelungs, but it is absurd that she belives she knows more than us about Shias after reading that book, dismmising everything that we belive in as inaccurate "since madelung dont think so"... --Striver 12:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Striver, you really can be difficult at times. I think it's safe to point out that average Shia knowledge is nothing special in scholarly terms. I know many Sunnis whom if trying to write an encyclopedic article would get laughed off of wikipedia. So, we must drop the idea that your religion privileges you in knowledge, and we must start getting you to cite references much better. From scholarly sources, try books, especially established ones. These websites that are getting passed off as real sources are problems because they are not scholarly works or even in the ball park. Britannica would not publish things how you write them Striver, and just going on tone alone Zora's work is much better. She also tends to cite sources more, and decent ones. So, I would not discount her knowledge. In this article you have the list of Sunni scholars that called Shias kafirs... well, you add, "and more..." that is completely unacceptable, it's as if you mean "ad infinitum", as if Sunnism itself is an attack on Shi'ism. Do you really feel that this article is a balanced portrayal? Please help to fix and balance it out Striver, these aren't argument papers, they are neutral and you are turning it into an argument for your beliefs more or less and that's not how encyclopedias are written, they don't make judgments. Okay? gren グレン 08:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi gren. Sorry for making you feel bad. That part that you fact cheke was not created by me, it was created by zereshk and she defended their validity on the Shia talk page. The only thing i did was to move it here. The "and moree..." is accurate, i mean, can you belive the creator of the four madhab making takfir, but not anyone else? Further, Sunni Islam *is* factualy a attack on shia Islam, Umar himself confessed that in Sahih Bukhari with the words "Ali Zubair and however was with them opposed us". Even if one totaly disregards the Imamah issue, the factual behavior of the Caliphs remain: They denied fatimah her inheritance on OUTRAGEOUS grounds, she stoped talking to them and demanded to be buried in secret. Sahih Bukhari agrees. And when they also did the same to dishonest. Not to talk about Abu Bakr confistating the land of Fadak from Fatimah (Yes CONFISCATING, its was NOT a part of any inheritance). Continueing to Abu Bakr killing Shias on random zakat non-sense arguments and then the Battle of Camel and Siffin, and then Karbala and so on... How can you say that Sunni Islam is *not* an assault on Shia Islam?

However, i do agree that some of the things in the article need a factual check, for example, where the Abbasid really Sunnis? Did they acknowledge the three first Caliphs? If not, that needs to be pointed out. Then, i wonder if somone can realy be hanged for three year, is that possible? And then, we need to include the later Sunni scholars that very kindly have joined the Shia call for Unity. Also, we need to add books like "and then i was guided" that literaly have taken countries in a rage of conversion to Shia Islam, and being fobiden in manny countries, and also point out that the reverse fenomen does not exsits, Sunni books causing mass conversion to Sunni from Shia. Thanks for your input and i await your reaply! salam! --Striver 13:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Persecution of Sunni ulema

Bringing this up as an example of government suppression of Shi'a is just plain wrong. Al-Mamun was attempting to impose his Mutazili dogma on the ulema and they resisted. Had nothing to do with the Shi'a. Zora 23:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The point is that it wasnt just the Shi'a that were being persecuted.--Zereshk 00:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Isn't that Sunni-Sunni relations, not Shi'a-Sunni relations? gren グレン 18:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The point is to show the atmosphere of intolerance at the time. There were different schools of thought even within the Sunni superstructure. Some accept Shias. Some dont. Those who did, died for it. (example: Tusi)

Also, there is no Arabic in the text. I therefore dont need to reference anything that I already havent. The Arabic stuff that I posted on the talk page has translations given on the site whose link I posted. Thanx again.--Zereshk 23:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Citations

Please make citations so references can be checked. Adding Arabic script is not going to help and therefore it is just like be unreferenced. Provide something that makes it trackable for peer review. gren グレン 18:50, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The Arabic that you are referring to is actually the name of the text, the reference itself. I left it in Arabic, because I wasnt sure about the proper transliteration. I will write its English transcription beside it.--Zereshk 23:46, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yah, just make sure there is something (ISBN at least) so that we can identify the source and cite it. Page numbers in a certain version would be heplful. This is controversial and if only you know your source that's not going to be good enough. Try to make it more accessible. Wikipedia:Cite sources shows all of the reasons sources need to be cited, etc. gren グレン 00:53, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Tell me, does the Quran have an ISBN number? Or how about the prophecies of Nostradamus? Or the Bible of Matthew? Likewise, texts that were written several hundred years ago are the same. If you know Islam and Arabic well enough, you will know the books that Ibn Athir for example wrote. Or Nizam ul-Mulk's Siyasatnama. And you will know Ibn Athir's al-nihayah wa al-bidayah. These are obvious sources. Your putting an NPOV tag just illustrates your partisan and obstructionist position. Why cant people just accept that there is injustice in mainstream Islam as well, like everywhere else?--Zereshk 02:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

They all do have ISBNs in modern publications... unless, you happen to have a very old book they will have some way to trace them. It doesn't matter how much I know about Arabic or Islam the fact remains that you need to cite things in a way that others can check on them, just read the rules Zereshk. You will note I never added the NPOV tag to this page..., and adding an NPOV tag isn't exactly partisan? It's saying the article is too partisan. I have never denied injustice in mainstream Islam... so let's just cite sources. Okay? Also, if they're very old I recommend trying ot get them on project gutenberg or distributed proofreaders (Europe for foreign character sets). Really, I don't see why this has become an argument about being partisan or not... it's a straightforward case of you must present your sources in a way so that others can research and fact check the article. Thanks. gren グレン 03:14, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

template

does {{Religious persecution}} bring any ideas? --Striver 03:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You are going to have to explain what you mean Striver. gren グレン 03:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Its strikes me as there is a place for a "religous persecution of Shi'as" article, and it should be linked there. Make a "religous persecution by the Shi'as" also, if you find any such material. --Striver 03:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure it deserves a place on the template (since we're getting into sectarian and smaller scopes, and the article is broad) but I do think you could certainly create an article. This article almost is that already because it doesn't discuss good relations very much... and, of course there have been problems. If it's done well it could be a good article :) --gren グレン 05:00, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that is what occured to me. Unfortunatly, there is not much good to report, but i do think that the good thinks from the "shia" aticle should be included.--Striver 14:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Misunderstood concepts

I believe there are some issues that need to be adressed as to whom exactly called "Shiites" as "Kafir" by doing Takfir on them;

It's important to know there were two form of Shiites in history wich both adhered to Shiite teaching (in this case i mean your typical Ithna Ashari)..

• (1) Shiites that cursed Abu Bakr, Omar and Othman, whom were called Rafidi's for them doing such
• (2) Shiites that did not curse Omar, Othman, Abu Bakr, etc, the Majority

If we consider that Imam Malik and Abu Hanifa were students under the Shiite Imam, Imam Sadiq, and we analyze how both of these characters have praised their teacher and in addition studied with Shiites alltogether, that Imam Sadiq taught them about Muta, Taqiyyah and other concepts and at the same time them forming a respectful difference in oppinion, we'll realize that these two characters that on the page that have refered to "Shia as Kafir" were refering to the "Rafidi" form of Shiism (1). Someone should definately be sure about whom he attributes the Takfir to and who the person was refering to. The other two Imams (Ahmad Hanbal and Shafi) in addition were indirect students of Imam Sadiq as well, as is generally known.--Paradoxic 15:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It would be enriching if you add this historical point to the article.--Zereshk 17:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Major revision

This is truly one of the most fantastically POV articles anywhere on Wikipedia. Despite my major revision, as it stands now I would vote for deletion in a second. The article is not what the title purports to be; it is not a "history of Sunni-Shia relations" but a huge litany of Shia polemics of the most blatant kind. No neutral reader can regard this article as worthy of any encyclopedia. More revisions will come as I have time to undertake them, unless it is deleted or retitled to reflect it's real agenda. --AladdinSE 23:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)