Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Continuation War

Parties' agreement to mediation

I could agree to mediation on the matters related to the listed topics but as it stands issues list does not list issues instead it lists what user YMB29 wants them to state without any indication of user's willingness to compromise. I will agree to starting the mediation on actually neutral basis but i can not agree to it on the basis of the currently issued list of demands by user YMB29. I see no point starting mediation under such loaded terms. - Wanderer602 (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

What exactly do you not agree with?

Perhaps you should have filed for this? However, you did not want to file for dispute resolution and seemed uninterested in filing for mediation too, so I had to do it... -YMB29 (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

If the topic lists only and nothing but the issues (e.g. 'result of the VP-offensive' & 'Novyi Beloostrov 4-5 September 1941') and none of your personal POV behind them, ie. would actually be neutral, then i have no problem agreeing to mediation. And to the compromises involved as stated in RfM Guide.

I saw no need for it since there already was WP:3 which you have refused accept. In similar manner DRN offered the very same solution which you again refused to accept. - Wanderer602 (talk) 22:27, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No, you are again manipulating what others have said. The only thing clear from DR is your OR with the war diaries.

The descriptions are more neutral now. -YMB29 (talk) 03:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

How do you both intend to resolve this dispute, if not through mediation? Please also be aware that, as part of the mediation proceedings, the mediator will establish the issues in dispute, so the current list of issues is likely to be changed. AGK [•] 10:44, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I do welcome mediation even if I'm not certain that it is needed after what WP:3 has stated and what took place at DRN. What i objected to was the clearly non-neutral and non-compromising way the issues had been placed forward. - Wanderer602 (talk) 11:03, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

If you want to take third opinions and dispute resolution into account, then you agree with the OR for issue #2? -YMB29 (talk) 16:31, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Except it is not OR as per what was discussed with other editors earlier since i provided a secondary source as well. Just because the view differs from yours does not make it OR. But since you included the matter to mediation there is little point to discuss it until mediator comments it. - Wanderer602 (talk) 16:56, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

If the two issues will be rephrased or broken down further, it is ok with me. -YMB29 (talk) 16:31, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Opening Statements

User 1

The offensive was a Soviet strategic victory and this is backed up by many reliable sources[1], such as books by well known historians Glantz and Erickson. They clearly talk about the goals and results of the offensive, not the war. The main goal was to force Finland from the war on Soviet terms and this was accomplished.
Only one or two Finnish sources provided by Wanderer602 say that the entire offensive was a failure. His other sources talk only about a part of the offensive or are quoted out of context; one quote from a book by Ziemke is outdated since the quoted text was corrected in a newer version of the book.
I originally wanted the result to be just Soviet victory (without the word strategic). Third opinions agreed with me, but also suggested not writing a result as a compromise. I then suggested strategic victory, but there were no further comments on this.
I see no reason that the result should not be Strategic Soviet victory when there are so many sources supporting it. I don't like it is not a valid reason.

The second issue is a clear case of original research by Wanderer602. He explains it well himself. -YMB29 (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

User 2

Several sources have been provided which state that the operation was a Soviet failure (operationally). Most of the sources provided by YMB29 discuss the result of the war not the result of the offensive, and the article in case (i) is about the offensive not about the war. Since there are now sources with opinions of the result on different levels it seems that most practical solution would be to blank the result entry and discuss the result itself in the article, that was also the one recommended by WP:3 (requested by YMB29 who subsequently rejected the said recommendation) and also by guidelines for the use of military conflict infobox.

Finnish primary documents (war diaries) do not mention the fighting in the village (not a town) of Novyi Beloostrov (Finnish: Valkeasaaren asema - lit. Valkeasaari station), not in any level, starting from General HQ down to regimental at that time. Neither do Finnish secondary sources which give an overview to the fighting in the area while they note other fighting of similar scale nearby. All sources have since been marked 'OR' by YMB29 without any basis for such an action. Finnish documents do state that Finns advanced up to the small stream just north of the village however. Also meanwhile there was fighting at Staryi Beloostrov (Finnish: Valkeasaari) (other village some 6 km north of the first one) which Finns did capture and in where Soviets counterattacked though that village was in the end still in Finnish control.

- Wanderer602 (talk) 07:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved user

It looks like there's a very easy solution to this dispute. Rather than oversimplifying the issue by labeling victory for one side, use the "result" section of the infobox to be more specific, such as in this article: Battle of Damascus (2012). Since it looks like the operation was not a complete victory, break the operation down and list in the "results" section what territory the Soviets gained and what territory they failed to gain. A "decisive victory" does not need to be labeled for one side for every battle article. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we can do that. Also, strategic victory does not mean that one side won decisively. -YMB29 (talk) 12:46, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Next steps

I am going to read over the whole history of this dispute (i.e., the prior DR attempts) and then begin the discussion process. Thank you both for posting your statements quickly. Best, Lord Roem (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Issues to be resolved

I have read over the discussions on the talk page and all your statements to gain a better understanding of the dispute at hand. Before we move on, we need to first agree to the two issues we will actually discuss. If my short summary below is satisfactory, please sign below.

• Issue One: Was the offensive a strategic victory? If it was not, is the better alternative to note how partial it was in the infobox, or refer to the Aftermath section for discussion.

• Issue Two: Was there small fighting near that Finnish town in September 1941? How much weight should be given to the primary and secondary Finnish sources?

Parties endorsing this summary

2. I'm ok with them, but not with YMB29's suggested change. - Wanderer602 (talk) 07:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

For the second issue the problem is how the Finnish sources can be used, whether the statement that there was no fighting according to these sources is original research or not. -YMB29 (talk) 05:17, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

So far i haven't been able to find any evidence supporting the fight, and neither have other users (Whiskey) who have tried. There isn't even indirect support for it which i have left out from the article since it would OR to use it, but for example casualty reports have nothing of a kind listed in them for the formations which were at the site at the time. Using Finnish information of the units which were at the site, of whose location and the absence of other units being verified by primary and secondary sources, is not OR. It simply states what Finnish sources state of the site at the time, which is that nothing happened. - Wanderer602 (talk) 07:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

That is your conclusion based on your own research and analysis of sources, so it is OR. -YMB29 (talk) 12:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Woah. Hold on a second there fellas. We'll get to these issues in an orderly fashion. Now YMB29, I understand you disagree with his use of those sources. Is that an issue you want us to talk about in this mediation? If yes, please sign an endorsement of the issues for us to review. If not, please tell me what things you want to change specifically about the summary. If you're concerned about those sources, we'll get there. -- Lord Roem (talk) 13:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not concerned about the sources, but about how they are used. I think this should be stated in the summary. -YMB29 (talk) 14:37, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

"How much weight should be given to the primary and secondary Finnish sources?" This would address the usage of those sources. Lord Roem (talk) 17:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but the issue is not about their weight (I am not saying that they are less important than others), but how they are used or misused for the statement that there was no fighting. -YMB29 (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Revised issues to be resolved

Small revision/addition based on discussion above.

• Issue One: Was the offensive a strategic victory? If it was not, is the better alternative to note how partial it was in the infobox, or refer to the Aftermath section for discussion?

• Issue Two: Was there small fighting near that Finnish town in September 1941? How should the primary and secondary Finnish sources be used in relation to that event?

Parties endorsing this summary

1. The summaries are fine now. -YMB29 (talk) 17:58, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
2. I suppose i can accept them. - Wanderer602 (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Let's focus on one thing at a time. Issues list first, then discussion. Let's not get sidetracked. -- Lord Roem (talk) 19:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Comment: If it's unclear or disputed that fighting took place in the Finnish town, can't you guys just simply mention in the article that it's unclear whether clashes occurred there? Do we really need to decide whether it happened or not?-- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:22, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Well there are sources that clearly state that there was fighting and there are no sources that dispute this. Wanderer602 himself came to the conclusion that there was no fighting after he looked at several Finnish sources. -YMB29 (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Problem is that there can not be sources discussing an absence of something. Reports and later on documents discuss on what took place, not what didn't - in other words military reports do not make note unless something happened. Or if they do it does go anywhere apart from the lowest level sources. - Wanderer602 (talk) 21:49, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Strategic Victory?

We have to first determine whether the offensive was a "strategic victory". There are several sub-points here for us to discuss to reach a decision. The reason you both are here in formal mediation is because prior attempts at working this out have failed. Please keep an open mind, be willing to compromise, and understand the structure I am using to help guide you two to a result you both can live with.

Sub-issues: (1) Do Glantz & Erickson conclude that the offensive was a "Soviet strategic victory"; (2) If Yes, what specific 'strategic' goals were accomplished; (3) What weight should be afforded the Glantz & Erickson paper; (4) What, if any, sources conclude that it was not a strategic victory; (5) Are these sources to be afforded any weight; (6) Drafting a compromise

Let's first begin with the preliminary question of whether Glantz and Erickson conclude that the offensive was a "strategic victory" for the Soviets. For this, and all discussions, I want to minimize blocks of text. Find a quote from the source to support your position, and we'll see where it goes.

It's not a bad thing to agree with each other on any of these small points. Don't have a battlefield mentality (no pun intended). -- Lord Roem (talk) 03:31, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Glantz & Erickson's conclusions

Glantz: (When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler, pp. 202-203):

The Karelian operations of 1944, the first phase of the summer campaign, were designed to drive Finland from the war, divert attention from Soviet offensive preparations further south, and embarrass the Germans by driving one of their allies from the war. The Stavka ordered the Leningrad and Karelian Fronts to secure the Karelo-Finnish isthmus and the expanse of Karelia north and northwest of Leningrad. Govorov's front, supported by the Baltic Fleet, was ordered to attack on 10 June 1944 to secure Vyborg within 10 days and Meretskov's front was to strike north of Lake Ladoga beginning on 21 June... By 21 June, the left flank of his 21st Army had secured Vyborg despite intense and sordid negotiations between the Finns and Germans over the possible dispatch of German assistance. Govorov then reinforced his forward forces at Vyborg with units of 59th Army, which were transported by ship to the Finnish city. The same day Meretskov's 7th Army commenced operations into Central Karelia from its positions along the Svir River. The combined Soviet operations north and south of Lake Ladoga ultimately forced the Finns to sue for peace in September, and although token German assistance finally did arrive, the die was already cast for the Finns. Soon events elsewhere rendered the Karelian operations a distinct sideshow to the main military effort taking place to the south of Belorussia. For their efforts against the Finns, both Govorov and Meretskov were promoted to the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union. The Finnish campaign had the added bonus of keeping German attention focused away from Army Group Center. In fact, an organized strategic deception campaign portrayed major Soviet offensives on the northern and southern flanks, with only limited attacks on Army Group Center expected later in the summer.

Erickson (The Road to Berlin: Stalin's War with Germany, pp. 197, 329-330) [2] [3]:

The General Staff plan envisaged the summer offensive being opened with the Leningrad Front attack, timed for the beginning of June and aimed at Vyborg, to be supplemented by the Karelian Front striking out for Svirsk—Petrozavodsk to knock Finland right out of the war...

The moment to tighten the screw on Finland had finally come; the first June attacks, though ultimately contained, virtually exhausted Finnish reserves (so Marshal Mannerheim reported to Hitler), and after another month of ceaseless hammering the situation had grown desperate. The Finns struggled furiously to seal up every path and passage from the defile between the two great lakes but it was, as Meretskov observed, a losing battle. Soviet troops bored on with Finnish resistance stiffening nearer to the frontier; roads were mined and barricaded, bridges blown, stretches of open country mined. The Red Army pounded the Finns into asking for an armistice and into repudiating the Waffenbrudenchaft with Germany. Already on 28 July President Ryti appeared at Finnish Headquarters to inform Mannerheim of his decision to lay down his office and begged the Marshal to assume the presidency. President Ryti resigned on 1 August and Mannerheim took up his new post, intent on leading Finland out of the war.

So they state the main goal of the strategic offensive (forcing Finland from the war) and then say that it was accomplished. Obviously this means strategic victory[4] and Wanderer602 even agreed with this[5]. -YMB29 (talk) 07:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I think these sources do conclude that the offensive lead to the armistice. They don't, though, use the term strategic victory - a term of art - in their language. Both those points I feel are a fair reading of the text. Thoughts? Lord Roem (talk) 15:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You both need to stop your side conversations and follow the structure. We will get to all issues in time, but you must follow the process I have set out. The reason you are here is because your discussions haven't worked in the past.

The only question right now is whether the statement I made above is a fair reading of this source. Namely, that the mission of the offensive lead to the peace and succeeded in that regard, but that it doesn't explicitly say it was a "strategic victory". Lord Roem (talk) 17:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Technically no to both. To be precise the source states only that Red Army achieved something, not that the offensive in question would have do so on its own. - Wanderer602 (talk) 18:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Wanderer602, just a tad confused. You agree that it says the Russians got something out of the offensive, but that the offensive wasn't the necessary element of that success, i.e. it was just part of the elements that led to victory? I just want to make sure I know where you're coming from. Lord Roem (talk) 22:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly so. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Cool.

So, what's your take on this sentence: "The combined Soviet operations north and south of Lake Ladoga ultimately forced the Finns to sue for peace in September, and although token German assistance finally did arrive, the die was already cast for the Finns." -- Lord Roem (talk) 05:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

That it is discussing that the offensive contributed to the armistice, eventually. More so because offensive ended for most parts already in July and the source is discussing event that took place in September. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, your statement is accurate. The sources don't explicitly say that it was a strategic victory. However, if they say that the main goal was achieved then it is obviously a victory, and it is acceptable to conclude that, as I verified on the military history talk page.[6] -YMB29 (talk) 19:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

It appears we have some agreements between the two of you on a few points. First, you both agree the sources don't explicitly use the term "strategic victory" to define the offensive. Additionally, you both agree that the offensive resulted or help result in the peace. YMB29 said "the main goal was achieved" and Wanderer602 said "it is discussing that the offensive contributed to the armistice, eventually" and that the Russians "got something out of the offensive". That's fertile ground for compromise!

But let's leave that aside for now, we don't want to jump the gun without addressing everything.

We need to discuss what exactly these sources say was the goal of the offensive. YMB29, could you please post the most pertinent part on that subject? Thanks, Lord Roem (talk) 05:43, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Well the sources quoted above clearly say what the main goal was (to drive Finland from the war, to knock Finland right out of the war). -YMB29 (talk) 14:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a fair reading of the text. Wanderer, your thoughts? Do you agree that these sources say this particular offensive was to get Finland out of the war, as part of a larger effort to attack the "Army Group Centre" of the Germans? Lord Roem (talk) 16:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

From these particular sources at a certain level, yes. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, looks like we have an understanding on what this source says. I'm glad both of you have kept an open mind so far. Next, we'll move on to any source that says the opposite of Glantz. Wanderer, if would like to post any text from any sources you think conclude that the offensive did not accomplish its goals/was not a strategic victory/wasn't the real cause of the peace, please post them below. -- Lord Roem (talk) 05:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Sources contrary to Glantz

German Northern Theatre Of Operations 1940-45, by Ziemke, p.288 & Hitler's Forgotten Armies: Combat in Norway and Finland, by Bob Carruthers (2012)

It appeared that as in the Winter War, although the Soviet Union could claim a victory, its offensive had failed, largely for the same reasons - underestimation of the Finnish capacity to resist and rigid, unimaginative Soviet tactical leadership.

Kun hyökkääjän tie suljettiin, by Moisala & Alanen (1988) (English: When attackers road was blocked)

Which quite bluntly states that Stalin's great offensive against Finns failed to reach its conclusion: Finland was not defeated militarily. In fact from military strategic view point the offensive was Soviet Union's failure, which was caused by the fact that neither of the fronts participating to the offensive managed to accomplish their respective operational/strategic missions...

The Battle for Leningrad, by David Glantz

During the final assault on Vyborg, the Stavka radioed a directive to the Leningrad Front promoting Govorov to the rank of Marshall of the Soviet Union and both Zhdanov and Gusev to the rank of Colonel General. Although the capture of Vyborg and the Red Army advance to the Vuoksi River line essentially ended the Vyborg operation, it did not satisfy the STAVKA's strategic aims. & By 14 July it was clear to Soviet and Finn alike that Govorov's offensive into Southern Finland had failed.

---

Like I said before, the Ziemke quote is wrong, since it was corrected in the newer version of the book:

Ziemke (Stalingrad to Berlin. The German Defeat in the East, p. 388):

It appeared that as in the Winter War of 1939-40, although the Soviet Union could claim a victory, its offensive fell short of the success it ought to have had, largely for the same reasons — underestimation of the Finnish capacity to resist and rigid, unimaginative Soviet tactical leadership.

The Glantz quote is taken out of context. The did not satisfy the STAVKA's strategic aims refers to the capture of Vyborg on June 20, when the offensive was going according to schedule. Glantz means that the capture of Vyborg alone (not the whole offensive) was not enough to achieve the strategic aims, so the operations of the offensive needed to continue.

The second sentence, Govorov's offensive into Southern Finland had failed, again refers to only one part of the offensive and not to the entire offensive. Invading southern Finland was not a strategic goal, and so the failure does not contradict strategic victory in any way.

So without all the misquoting, only one Finnish source is left. -YMB29 (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)